| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Michael Ejercito" |
| Date: |
13 Oct 2006 12:19:59 PM |
| Object: |
A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
Click here to view the thread:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100021339&page=18&EntryID=14230818&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=17&Mytoken=40142A23-D62C-48EB-94BF83C866E187D164434032
Here is a quote from a forum thread a couple of months ago:
"Ok, I going to throw a wrench in here.
As for abortion...I was on a missions trip to Nicaragua when this
happened...a young girl was walking to the store for her mother, she
was 11 at the time. A man assaulted and raped her. She got pregnent.
The doctors said she was too under developed physically to give birth
and live. Toward the end of the trip, we heard on the news the abortion
was decided. For once I understood there are grey areas. This girl
would have died had she carried the child to term. Why would you punish
her for going to the store for her mother? The baby may have survived
with no mom, no dad. Think of all the psycological effects. Knowing in
9 months you are surely going die come on."
Now here is the response.
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her? Maybe God
wouldn't have, but hats not the point. My friend, the presence of life
is the will of God. What happens on earth is not as important as
eternity.
The situation is sad, but that does not make it less wrong. It just
makes it all the more unfortunate.
Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, period."
If rape results in death, it is capital murder. So, does an
eleven-year-old rape victim have a duty to submit to murder to deliver
the rapist's baby?
Michael
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
14 Oct 2006 11:27:42 AM |
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Michael Ejercito wrote:
<snip>
It was the rapist who was hateful.
It was the rapist who committed a hate crime against a virgin.
Arrr, that's right. But denying her an abortion will simply make things
far worse, society ought to try and minimise the harm this poor girl
has suffered, and that is part of it.
--
Lucifer, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil and General
Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
ps. Also, if god created evrything, why did he create the rapist?
Michael
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
14 Oct 2006 01:01:34 AM |
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Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote:
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her?
Notice how the pro-liars expect OTHER people to trust in God, but they
always need to find some reason to step in and tell people what to do.
Apparently the religious types don't trust in the God they would foist
upon others.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
14 Oct 2006 12:59:33 AM |
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Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote:
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her? Maybe God
wouldn't have, but hats not the point. My friend, the presence of life
is the will of God. What happens on earth is not as important as
eternity.
And how many arrogance pro-liars would offer up ALL of their money to
this child and other like her and "trust in God" for their finances?
The situation is sad, but that does not make it less wrong.
Then stop making it worse.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
13 Oct 2006 02:31:50 PM |
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Michael Ejercito wrote:
Click here to view the thread:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100021339&page=18&EntryID=14230818&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=17&Mytoken=40142A23-D62C-48EB-94BF83C866E187D164434032
Here is a quote from a forum thread a couple of months ago:
"Ok, I going to throw a wrench in here.
As for abortion...I was on a missions trip to Nicaragua when this
happened...a young girl was walking to the store for her mother, she
was 11 at the time. A man assaulted and raped her. She got pregnent.
The doctors said she was too under developed physically to give birth
and live. Toward the end of the trip, we heard on the news the abortion
was decided. For once I understood there are grey areas. This girl
would have died had she carried the child to term. Why would you punish
her for going to the store for her mother? The baby may have survived
with no mom, no dad. Think of all the psycological effects. Knowing in
9 months you are surely going die come on."
Now here is the response.
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her? Maybe God
wouldn't have, but hats not the point. My friend, the presence of life
is the will of God. What happens on earth is not as important as
eternity.
The situation is sad, but that does not make it less wrong. It just
makes it all the more unfortunate.
Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, period."
If rape results in death, it is capital murder. So, does an
eleven-year-old rape victim have a duty to submit to murder to deliver
the rapist's baby?
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
What happens on Earth is far more important than eternity because it is
certain. Millions of people have died confident in the fate that awaits
them after death, confident in totally incompatible versions of the
unquestionable truth. It stands to reason that many, probably most, were
mistaken in some way and therefore it follows that most faith is
misplaced and dangerous and yet misplaced faith seems just as effective
at doing whatever faith is meant to do as "well placed faith", if such a
thing exists.
Of course no woman or girl is obliged to carry any foetus to term, even
her husband's child, let alone the child of a rapist. Whether she has
the ability to safely make such a decision will vary from case to case
and society to society. Simply wanting to end the agony and draw a line
under it is more than enough of a reason for a girl to want a rapist's
child aborted, she should not need to provide doctors to lie that her
life is in danger if she continues with the pregnancy. If that decision
is taken when the bunch of cells in question has significantly less
self-awareness than the animals we regularly kill for food I don't see
that there is any great moral problem.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
|
| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
13 Oct 2006 08:18:52 PM |
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Martin Willett wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
Click here to view the thread:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100021339&page=18&EntryID=14230818&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=17&Mytoken=40142A23-D62C-48EB-94BF83C866E187D164434032
Here is a quote from a forum thread a couple of months ago:
"Ok, I going to throw a wrench in here.
As for abortion...I was on a missions trip to Nicaragua when this
happened...a young girl was walking to the store for her mother, she
was 11 at the time. A man assaulted and raped her. She got pregnent.
The doctors said she was too under developed physically to give birth
and live. Toward the end of the trip, we heard on the news the abortion
was decided. For once I understood there are grey areas. This girl
would have died had she carried the child to term. Why would you punish
her for going to the store for her mother? The baby may have survived
with no mom, no dad. Think of all the psycological effects. Knowing in
9 months you are surely going die come on."
Now here is the response.
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her? Maybe God
wouldn't have, but hats not the point. My friend, the presence of life
is the will of God. What happens on earth is not as important as
eternity.
The situation is sad, but that does not make it less wrong. It just
makes it all the more unfortunate.
Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, period."
If rape results in death, it is capital murder. So, does an
eleven-year-old rape victim have a duty to submit to murder to deliver
the rapist's baby?
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
The event described in the forum thread happened in Nicaragua.
What happens on Earth is far more important than eternity because it is
certain. Millions of people have died confident in the fate that awaits
them after death, confident in totally incompatible versions of the
unquestionable truth. It stands to reason that many, probably most, were
mistaken in some way and therefore it follows that most faith is
misplaced and dangerous and yet misplaced faith seems just as effective
at doing whatever faith is meant to do as "well placed faith", if such a
thing exists.
Of course no woman or girl is obliged to carry any foetus to term, even
her husband's child, let alone the child of a rapist. Whether she has
the ability to safely make such a decision will vary from case to case
and society to society. Simply wanting to end the agony and draw a line
under it is more than enough of a reason for a girl to want a rapist's
child aborted, she should not need to provide doctors to lie that her
life is in danger if she continues with the pregnancy. If that decision
is taken when the bunch of cells in question has significantly less
self-awareness than the animals we regularly kill for food I don't see
that there is any great moral problem.
It all boils down to whether or not people have a right to resist
foreign invasion.
If you do read further into the thread, you will find that one of
the posters criticizes the use of fact-based logic for topics which
require faith.
Michael
.
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| User: "Shawn Hirn" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
13 Oct 2006 08:57:32 PM |
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In article <1160788732.882543.72350@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
Click here to view the thread:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&grou
pID=100021339&page=18&EntryID=14230818&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&last
pagesent=17&Mytoken=40142A23-D62C-48EB-94BF83C866E187D164434032
Here is a quote from a forum thread a couple of months ago:
"Ok, I going to throw a wrench in here.
As for abortion...I was on a missions trip to Nicaragua when this
happened...a young girl was walking to the store for her mother, she
was 11 at the time. A man assaulted and raped her. She got pregnent.
The doctors said she was too under developed physically to give birth
and live. Toward the end of the trip, we heard on the news the abortion
was decided. For once I understood there are grey areas. This girl
would have died had she carried the child to term. Why would you punish
her for going to the store for her mother? The baby may have survived
with no mom, no dad. Think of all the psycological effects. Knowing in
9 months you are surely going die come on."
Now here is the response.
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her? Maybe God
wouldn't have, but hats not the point. My friend, the presence of life
is the will of God. What happens on earth is not as important as
eternity.
The situation is sad, but that does not make it less wrong. It just
makes it all the more unfortunate.
Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, period."
If rape results in death, it is capital murder. So, does an
eleven-year-old rape victim have a duty to submit to murder to deliver
the rapist's baby?
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
God is nothing more than a fantasy. If you doubt me, prove me wrong.
.
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
15 Oct 2006 04:48:58 PM |
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Michael Ejercito wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
Click here to view the thread:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100021339&page=18&EntryID=14230818&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=17&Mytoken=40142A23-D62C-48EB-94BF83C866E187D164434032
Here is a quote from a forum thread a couple of months ago:
"Ok, I going to throw a wrench in here.
As for abortion...I was on a missions trip to Nicaragua when this
happened...a young girl was walking to the store for her mother, she
was 11 at the time. A man assaulted and raped her. She got pregnent.
The doctors said she was too under developed physically to give birth
and live. Toward the end of the trip, we heard on the news the abortion
was decided. For once I understood there are grey areas. This girl
would have died had she carried the child to term. Why would you punish
her for going to the store for her mother? The baby may have survived
with no mom, no dad. Think of all the psycological effects. Knowing in
9 months you are surely going die come on."
Now here is the response.
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her? Maybe God
wouldn't have, but hats not the point. My friend, the presence of life
is the will of God. What happens on earth is not as important as
eternity.
The situation is sad, but that does not make it less wrong. It just
makes it all the more unfortunate.
Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, period."
If rape results in death, it is capital murder. So, does an
eleven-year-old rape victim have a duty to submit to murder to deliver
the rapist's baby?
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
Yes. The rapist's genes have been rewarded by being replicated. If God
is responsible for the miracle of babies he is also responsible for this
rewarding of criminality. Of course the idea of genes being rewarded by
being replicated is a bit of an abstraction, but a far more useful one
than the concept of a god, it actually enables people to make
scientifically testable predictions, which help to explain phenomena we
observe, which is more than can be said for the discredited god hypothesis.
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
The event described in the forum thread happened in Nicaragua.
What happens on Earth is far more important than eternity because it is
certain. Millions of people have died confident in the fate that awaits
them after death, confident in totally incompatible versions of the
unquestionable truth. It stands to reason that many, probably most, were
mistaken in some way and therefore it follows that most faith is
misplaced and dangerous and yet misplaced faith seems just as effective
at doing whatever faith is meant to do as "well placed faith", if such a
thing exists.
Of course no woman or girl is obliged to carry any foetus to term, even
her husband's child, let alone the child of a rapist. Whether she has
the ability to safely make such a decision will vary from case to case
and society to society. Simply wanting to end the agony and draw a line
under it is more than enough of a reason for a girl to want a rapist's
child aborted, she should not need to provide doctors to lie that her
life is in danger if she continues with the pregnancy. If that decision
is taken when the bunch of cells in question has significantly less
self-awareness than the animals we regularly kill for food I don't see
that there is any great moral problem.
It all boils down to whether or not people have a right to resist
foreign invasion.
I think it is about whether hypothetical innocent babies have more
rights than real women who aren't virgins. Christians despise the mother
and worship the zygote. The mother is a sinner, the child is as perfect
as a human child can be with two evil sinners as parents. No contest.
They will joyfully condemn the sentient woman or girl to suffering for
the sake of a blob of cells and consider themselves paragons of morality
for doing so.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
16 Oct 2006 10:08:10 AM |
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On 13 Oct 2006 18:18:52 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Martin Willett wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
Click here to view the thread:
http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100021339&page=18&EntryID=14230818&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=17&Mytoken=40142A23-D62C-48EB-94BF83C866E187D164434032
Here is a quote from a forum thread a couple of months ago:
"Ok, I going to throw a wrench in here.
As for abortion...I was on a missions trip to Nicaragua when this
happened...a young girl was walking to the store for her mother, she
was 11 at the time. A man assaulted and raped her. She got pregnent.
The doctors said she was too under developed physically to give birth
and live. Toward the end of the trip, we heard on the news the abortion
was decided. For once I understood there are grey areas. This girl
would have died had she carried the child to term. Why would you punish
her for going to the store for her mother? The baby may have survived
with no mom, no dad. Think of all the psycological effects. Knowing in
9 months you are surely going die come on."
Now here is the response.
"How about trusting in God to see her through and heal her? Maybe God
wouldn't have, but hats not the point. My friend, the presence of life
is the will of God. What happens on earth is not as important as
eternity.
The situation is sad, but that does not make it less wrong. It just
makes it all the more unfortunate.
Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, period."
If rape results in death, it is capital murder. So, does an
eleven-year-old rape victim have a duty to submit to murder to deliver
the rapist's baby?
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
***** you're beyond rock stupid. Your 'God' scripted both the rape and
the child's becoming pregnant.
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
The event described in the forum thread happened in Nicaragua.
What happens on Earth is far more important than eternity because it is
certain. Millions of people have died confident in the fate that awaits
them after death, confident in totally incompatible versions of the
unquestionable truth. It stands to reason that many, probably most, were
mistaken in some way and therefore it follows that most faith is
misplaced and dangerous and yet misplaced faith seems just as effective
at doing whatever faith is meant to do as "well placed faith", if such a
thing exists.
Of course no woman or girl is obliged to carry any foetus to term, even
her husband's child, let alone the child of a rapist. Whether she has
the ability to safely make such a decision will vary from case to case
and society to society. Simply wanting to end the agony and draw a line
under it is more than enough of a reason for a girl to want a rapist's
child aborted, she should not need to provide doctors to lie that her
life is in danger if she continues with the pregnancy. If that decision
is taken when the bunch of cells in question has significantly less
self-awareness than the animals we regularly kill for food I don't see
that there is any great moral problem.
It all boils down to whether or not people have a right to resist
foreign invasion.
If you do read further into the thread, you will find that one of
the posters criticizes the use of fact-based logic for topics which
require faith.
You're well beyond redemption. Kill yourself immediately.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
17 Oct 2006 12:42:16 AM |
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stoney wrote:
On 13 Oct 2006 18:18:52 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Martin Willett wrote:
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
***** you're beyond rock stupid. Your 'God' scripted both the rape and
the child's becoming pregnant.
Oh, He did? so the RAPIST has absolutely NO responsibility over his
actions?
Why not commit rape? I mean, it is not as if you are responsible for
your actions, right?
Michael
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
17 Oct 2006 08:43:31 AM |
|
|
"Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161063736.193295.120250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
stoney wrote:
On 13 Oct 2006 18:18:52 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Martin Willett wrote:
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades
of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can
a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find
that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
***** you're beyond rock stupid. Your 'God' scripted both the rape and
the child's becoming pregnant.
Oh, He did? so the RAPIST has absolutely NO responsibility over his
actions?
You don't believe your god is all-knowing and omnipotent?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
17 Oct 2006 10:27:46 AM |
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Robibnikoff wrote:
"Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161063736.193295.120250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
stoney wrote:
On 13 Oct 2006 18:18:52 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Martin Willett wrote:
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades
of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can
a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find
that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
***** you're beyond rock stupid. Your 'God' scripted both the rape and
the child's becoming pregnant.
Oh, He did? so the RAPIST has absolutely NO responsibility over his
actions?
You don't believe your god is all-knowing and omnipotent?
Of course He is all-knowing and omnipotent.
Michael
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 02:43:38 PM |
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On 17 Oct 2006 08:27:46 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161063736.193295.120250@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
stoney wrote:
On 13 Oct 2006 18:18:52 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Martin Willett wrote:
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades
of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can
a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find
that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
***** you're beyond rock stupid. Your 'God' scripted both the rape and
the child's becoming pregnant.
Oh, He did? so the RAPIST has absolutely NO responsibility over his
actions?
You don't believe your god is all-knowing and omnipotent?
Of course He is all-knowing and omnipotent.
Thank you for your capitualization.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
17 Oct 2006 10:36:40 AM |
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Michael Ejercito wrote:
stoney wrote:
On 13 Oct 2006 18:18:52 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Martin Willett wrote:
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
***** you're beyond rock stupid. Your 'God' scripted both the rape and
the child's becoming pregnant.
Oh, He did? so the RAPIST has absolutely NO responsibility over his
actions?
Why not commit rape? I mean, it is not as if you are responsible for
your actions, right?
That only works if you subscribe to the jebus death cult. Best to
follow Sarte Here . "A man is nothing more than what he makes of
himself" - in other words, to commit a rape would destroy the self, and
the victim. One could also take the utalitarian standpoint of
minimising suffering here. Either way, the only thing that makes one
think that one is not in charge of one's actions is religion.
--
Lucifer, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil and General
Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
Michael
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 02:40:16 PM |
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On 16 Oct 2006 22:42:16 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
stoney wrote:
On 13 Oct 2006 18:18:52 -0700, "Michael Ejercito" <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Martin Willett wrote:
This is not a black and white issue, and it isn't a matter of shades of
grey either. There is a whole world of colour in this issue.
Postulating a god gets you into some really strange positions. How can a
benevolent god be in favour of rewarding rapists with babies that are
looked after by other people? If you add up all the instances of rape,
casual sex, illicit-lover sex and stable-partner sex you will find that
rapists are massively more successful at siring children than husbands
on a per-insemination basis. Is this the will of God? If so why do you
worship him?
God does not reward rapists with babies; it is the rapists' ***** that
makes the babies.
***** you're beyond rock stupid. Your 'God' scripted both the rape and
the child's becoming pregnant.
Oh, He did? so the RAPIST has absolutely NO responsibility over his
actions?
Zero. According to *your* superstition.
Why not commit rape?
It's not in my 'script.'
I mean, it is not as if you are responsible for
your actions, right?
Not in a world with your daemon deity.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
13 Oct 2006 10:29:09 PM |
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On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:31:50 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
I'd think they'd try to hide that as much as possible, knowing that
sane people would see through the scam.
But I think the reasons we see very few 11 year old girls dying of
pregnancy are a) relatively few girls that young are actually
impregnated and b) doctors (other than Christian loons) would tend to
terminate a pregnancy in a girl who was very unlikely to survive it
due to her age. Then again, how many cases occur in areas in which
there's very little reporting to the outside world? We can't know.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your
Christ."
- Mohandas Gandhi
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
15 Oct 2006 04:57:31 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:31:50 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
I'd think they'd try to hide that as much as possible, knowing that
sane people would see through the scam.
But I think the reasons we see very few 11 year old girls dying of
pregnancy are a) relatively few girls that young are actually
impregnated and b) doctors (other than Christian loons) would tend to
terminate a pregnancy in a girl who was very unlikely to survive it
due to her age. Then again, how many cases occur in areas in which
there's very little reporting to the outside world? We can't know.
We know that young girls conceal pregnancy. Often 13 and 14 year olds
give birth and nobody suspects a thing. If 13 year olds often conceal
pregnancies what do you expect 11 year olds to do?
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced. The
newspapers tell us this. They don't tell us of young girls concealing
pregnancies and then dying. Can you ever recall a story like that? I bet
you can recall stories of mystery abandoned healthy babies. You can't
abandon your baby when you die in the process of delivery.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
15 Oct 2006 05:08:06 PM |
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Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:31:50 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
I'd think they'd try to hide that as much as possible, knowing that
sane people would see through the scam.
But I think the reasons we see very few 11 year old girls dying of
pregnancy are a) relatively few girls that young are actually
impregnated and b) doctors (other than Christian loons) would tend to
terminate a pregnancy in a girl who was very unlikely to survive it
due to her age. Then again, how many cases occur in areas in which
there's very little reporting to the outside world? We can't know.
We know that young girls conceal pregnancy.
Only rarely
Often 13 and 14 year olds
give birth and nobody suspects a thing.
*****. That happens very rarely.
If 13 year olds often conceal
pregnancies
Why do you think that you need to lie to promote your agenda?
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced.
More *****. In a city of 5,000,000 it may happen ten times a year.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
15 Oct 2006 08:17:11 PM |
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On 15 Oct 2006 22:08:06 GMT, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
More *****. In a city of 5,000,000 it may happen ten times a year.
NYC has a larger population. I doubt a story like that gets into the
papers even ten times a year. 3 or 4 maybe - for about 11 million
people in the metro area. Young girls have babies but an abandoned
baby story is very rare. And I can't recall on in which the mother
was found and was 13 or younger.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
17 Oct 2006 02:40:17 PM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:31:50 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
I'd think they'd try to hide that as much as possible, knowing that
sane people would see through the scam.
But I think the reasons we see very few 11 year old girls dying of
pregnancy are a) relatively few girls that young are actually
impregnated and b) doctors (other than Christian loons) would tend to
terminate a pregnancy in a girl who was very unlikely to survive it
due to her age. Then again, how many cases occur in areas in which
there's very little reporting to the outside world? We can't know.
We know that young girls conceal pregnancy.
Only rarely
Often 13 and 14 year olds
give birth and nobody suspects a thing.
*****. That happens very rarely.
If 13 year olds often conceal
pregnancies
Why do you think that you need to lie to promote your agenda?
What's my agenda? Go on, tell me what my agenda is, I'd love to know.
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced.
More *****. In a city of 5,000,000 it may happen ten times a year.
Isn't ten times a year regular?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 02:23:58 PM |
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On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:40:17 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:31:50 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Another point to consider is this idea that the child rape victim would
surely have died if the pregnancy went ahead. Have you ever come across
this phenomenon? Surely a tragedy like that would merit a bit of
newsprint if it ever happened, don't you think? My searches for evidence
that girls do die in childbirth just seems to bring up a lot of synopses
of novels and plays and very little in the way of hard evidence that
girls die in childbirth disproportionately compared to more mature women
in real life. Wouldn't pro-choice websites gather a list of martyrs to
the cause of motherhood at all costs? Where is the the website with page
after page of photographs of sweet little girls who died trying to give
birth to the children of rapists without upsetting the teachings of
their Church? If you find it please let me know where it is.
I'd think they'd try to hide that as much as possible, knowing that
sane people would see through the scam.
But I think the reasons we see very few 11 year old girls dying of
pregnancy are a) relatively few girls that young are actually
impregnated and b) doctors (other than Christian loons) would tend to
terminate a pregnancy in a girl who was very unlikely to survive it
due to her age. Then again, how many cases occur in areas in which
there's very little reporting to the outside world? We can't know.
We know that young girls conceal pregnancy.
Only rarely
Often 13 and 14 year olds
give birth and nobody suspects a thing.
*****. That happens very rarely.
If 13 year olds often conceal
pregnancies
Why do you think that you need to lie to promote your agenda?
What's my agenda? Go on, tell me what my agenda is, I'd love to know.
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced.
More *****. In a city of 5,000,000 it may happen ten times a year.
Isn't ten times a year regular?
Ten times a year is tops. In the Dallas Fort worth area, four times
in the last five years. And the population is greater than 5 million.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
15 Oct 2006 08:14:36 PM |
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On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:57:31 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced. The
newspapers tell us this. They don't tell us of young girls concealing
pregnancies and then dying. Can you ever recall a story like that? I bet
you can recall stories of mystery abandoned healthy babies. You can't
abandon your baby when you die in the process of delivery.
We're talking cities and civilization. Most of the world lives in
areas in which "hearing about" means from the village gossip. You and
I never hear a thing about this.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
I cannot conceive of a god who rewards and punishes his creatures
or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither
can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives
its physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism,
cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eter-
nity of life and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the exist-
ing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a
portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in
nature.
- Albert Einstein, as quoted in _Billions and Billions_, Carl Sagan.
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
17 Oct 2006 02:47:02 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:57:31 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced. The
newspapers tell us this. They don't tell us of young girls concealing
pregnancies and then dying. Can you ever recall a story like that? I bet
you can recall stories of mystery abandoned healthy babies. You can't
abandon your baby when you die in the process of delivery.
We're talking cities and civilization. Most of the world lives in
areas in which "hearing about" means from the village gossip. You and
I never hear a thing about this.
In my own life I have indirect experience of concealed teenage
pregnancy, many teenage pregnancies and of a girl who didn't have her
first period until after her first child (brother-in-law's
sister-in-law's sister-in-law I think, if I recall correctly). I haven't
heard any stories of real young girls dying in childbirth. Have you?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
17 Oct 2006 10:45:51 PM |
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Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced. The
newspapers tell us this. They don't tell us of young girls concealing
pregnancies and then dying. Can you ever recall a story like that? I bet
you can recall stories of mystery abandoned healthy babies. You can't
abandon your baby when you die in the process of delivery.
We're talking cities and civilization. Most of the world lives in
areas in which "hearing about" means from the village gossip. You and
I never hear a thing about this.
In my own life I have indirect experience of concealed teenage
pregnancy, many teenage pregnancies and of a girl who didn't have her
first period until after her first child (brother-in-law's
sister-in-law's sister-in-law I think, if I recall correctly). I haven't
heard any stories of real young girls dying in childbirth. Have you?
According to the US government about 350 women die each year from
pregnancy and childbirth. I don't know of statistics that break that
down by age. I do know that young girls are at greater risk.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 03:09:48 AM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced. The
newspapers tell us this. They don't tell us of young girls concealing
pregnancies and then dying. Can you ever recall a story like that? I bet
you can recall stories of mystery abandoned healthy babies. You can't
abandon your baby when you die in the process of delivery.
We're talking cities and civilization. Most of the world lives in
areas in which "hearing about" means from the village gossip. You and
I never hear a thing about this.
In my own life I have indirect experience of concealed teenage
pregnancy, many teenage pregnancies and of a girl who didn't have her
first period until after her first child (brother-in-law's
sister-in-law's sister-in-law I think, if I recall correctly). I haven't
heard any stories of real young girls dying in childbirth. Have you?
According to the US government about 350 women die each year from
pregnancy and childbirth. I don't know of statistics that break that
down by age. I do know that young girls are at greater risk.
The word is believe. You believe young girls are at greater risk, and as
you say you have no statistics.
350 is a very low number for a population of 300 million. That figure
will also include ectopic pregnancies and the like which can be very
damaging.
I feel a little uneasy about this glib assumption and assertion that
says that very young mothers are at risk of death from childbirth.
Nobody seems able to provide any evidence to back it up and yet people
are reacting strongly as if I am being deliberately blinkered. I am
prepared to accept any reasonable evidence but no blank assertions or
simple appeals to common sense. I have far too much experience of common
sense being a poor guide to fully trust it.
It makes sense to me to imagine a family traumatised by rape wanting to
end the pregnancy and end the suffering there but needing to hear some
***** to help ease their religiously brainwashed consciences. Bring
in a doctor who pulls out a tape measure and a stethoscope and declares
in the required tone that continuing the pregnancy would put the
mother's life at unacceptable risk because that is what he knows
everybody wants to hear and most are prepared to believe without any proof.
What sort of risk would be considered too high? Think about this. If you
were 45 and your husband was rich and well insured but in poor health
you might be willing to accept a 20% chance of your own death in
childbirth to have a thoroughly wanted child, possibly even more. But if
you were the father of a young girl traumatised by rape and totally
unprepared for motherhood would you tolerate the same chance of her
death as would be expected from even an average pregnancy of a healthy
25 year old? How much of an increase in that risk would it take to
convince you that going ahead with the pregnancy was "unwise"? I suggest
that you know that the answer is clearly not much. Almost everybody
wants to believe that the risk is intolerable, to the point that nobody
will actually measure it to see if they might be wrong.
"We don't want this child or this pregnancy" is a perfectly acceptable
reason for an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy and no other
justification is required to be fabricated.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 12:04:27 PM |
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Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced. The
newspapers tell us this. They don't tell us of young girls concealing
pregnancies and then dying. Can you ever recall a story like that? I bet
you can recall stories of mystery abandoned healthy babies. You can't
abandon your baby when you die in the process of delivery.
We're talking cities and civilization. Most of the world lives in
areas in which "hearing about" means from the village gossip. You and
I never hear a thing about this.
In my own life I have indirect experience of concealed teenage
pregnancy, many teenage pregnancies and of a girl who didn't have her
first period until after her first child (brother-in-law's
sister-in-law's sister-in-law I think, if I recall correctly). I haven't
heard any stories of real young girls dying in childbirth. Have you?
According to the US government about 350 women die each year from
pregnancy and childbirth. I don't know of statistics that break that
down by age. I do know that young girls are at greater risk.
The word is believe. You believe young girls are at greater risk, and as
you say you have no statistics.
350 is a very low number for a population of 300 million. That figure
will also include ectopic pregnancies and the like which can be very
damaging.
Are you willing to accept punishment if a woman dies because she was
denied an abortion?
I feel a little uneasy about this glib assumption and assertion that
says that very young mothers are at risk of death from childbirth.
Nobody seems able to provide any evidence to back it up and yet people
are reacting strongly as if I am being deliberately blinkered. I am
prepared to accept any reasonable evidence but no blank assertions or
simple appeals to common sense. I have far too much experience of common
sense being a poor guide to fully trust it.
Most people don't bother because it's all a smokescreen. There really
is no justification for forcing anybody to give birth.
[...]
"We don't want this child or this pregnancy" is a perfectly acceptable
reason for an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy and no other
justification is required to be fabricated.
"We"? last I checked there was just one person faced with becoming a
parent.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 02:09:42 PM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
Young girls regularly have secret pregnancies and leave healthy babies
on doorsteps or the like and slip away often never to be traced. The
newspapers tell us this. They don't tell us of young girls concealing
pregnancies and then dying. Can you ever recall a story like that? I bet
you can recall stories of mystery abandoned healthy babies. You can't
abandon your baby when you die in the process of delivery.
We're talking cities and civilization. Most of the world lives in
areas in which "hearing about" means from the village gossip. You and
I never hear a thing about this.
In my own life I have indirect experience of concealed teenage
pregnancy, many teenage pregnancies and of a girl who didn't have her
first period until after her first child (brother-in-law's
sister-in-law's sister-in-law I think, if I recall correctly). I haven't
heard any stories of real young girls dying in childbirth. Have you?
According to the US government about 350 women die each year from
pregnancy and childbirth. I don't know of statistics that break that
down by age. I do know that young girls are at greater risk.
The word is believe. You believe young girls are at greater risk, and as
you say you have no statistics.
350 is a very low number for a population of 300 million. That figure
will also include ectopic pregnancies and the like which can be very
damaging.
Are you willing to accept punishment if a woman dies because she was
denied an abortion?
Why the hell do you ask that? Do you think I am in favour of denying
abortion? Brush up your comprehension skills. I am in favour of the
truth and against lies, including convenient lies that suit "my side of
the argument".
I feel a little uneasy about this glib assumption and assertion that
says that very young mothers are at risk of death from childbirth.
Nobody seems able to provide any evidence to back it up and yet people
are reacting strongly as if I am being deliberately blinkered. I am
prepared to accept any reasonable evidence but no blank assertions or
simple appeals to common sense. I have far too much experience of common
sense being a poor guide to fully trust it.
Most people don't bother because it's all a smokescreen. There really
is no justification for forcing anybody to give birth.
Of course there isn't.
[...]
"We don't want this child or this pregnancy" is a perfectly acceptable
reason for an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy and no other
justification is required to be fabricated.
"We"? last I checked there was just one person faced with becoming a
parent.
Parthenogenesis already? Oy Vey!
When a child is pregnant there are several interested parties, and the
mother has precisely zero chance of muddling through on her own. A
pregnancy is not a mole or a zit, you might prefer it to be entirely
down to the mother but the real world is always going to be more
complicated than that, especially for a mother who is legally incapable
of working to earn the money to pay for a child's upkeep. Those who the
mother might want to lean on for financial support have a right to voice
their concern and express their view, whether they be the potential
child's father, grandparents or the state. "I will make my decision and
you will pay for the consequences of my decision and I won't even tell
you a thing about it until I demand some money" is not a very smart,
grown-up, enlightened or liberated way to behave.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert" |
|
| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 04:49:58 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:09:42 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Why the hell do you ask that? Do you think I am in favour of denying
abortion? Brush up your comprehension skills. I am in favour of the
truth and against lies, including convenient lies that suit "my side of
the argument".
Honestly you are presenting the arguments against abortion that
have been refuted many times. You are very confusing. Perhaps you are
just confused.
Most people don't bother because it's all a smokescreen. There really
is no justification for forcing anybody to give birth.
Of course there isn't.
[...]
"We don't want this child or this pregnancy" is a perfectly acceptable
reason for an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy and no other
justification is required to be fabricated.
"We"? last I checked there was just one person faced with becoming a
parent.
Parthenogenesis already? Oy Vey!
When a child is pregnant there are several interested parties, and the
mother has precisely zero chance of muddling through on her own. A
pregnancy is not a mole or a zit, you might prefer it to be entirely
down to the mother but the real world is always going to be more
complicated than that, especially for a mother who is legally incapable
of working to earn the money to pay for a child's upkeep. Those who the
mother might want to lean on for financial support have a right to voice
their concern and express their view, whether they be the potential
child's father, grandparents or the state. "I will make my decision and
you will pay for the consequences of my decision and I won't even tell
you a thing about it until I demand some money" is not a very smart,
grown-up, enlightened or liberated way to behave.
Abortions are provided on ability to pay. Taxpayers pay the cost for
many, just as they pay for live births. Abortion are cheaper.
The only person involved that has any right to decide is the
pregnant female, whether 12 or 72 it's her body.
In many religious families, a pregnant daughter is in a lot of
danger from parents. Especially ardent Pro-lifers, people and
especially young women, will seek support if they believe it will be
available.
My wife's college roommate is head of the local Family Planning
Clinic. She say's that about 98% of the women seeking abortion are
supported by family. 2% are afraid of their parents, all of whom are
self righteous religious bigots. Some have fled from abusive families.
Pregnant young girls refused abortion often commit suicide, a leading
cause of death for teen age girls.
Check CDC for stats on teenage deaths.
.
|
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|
| User: "Martin Willett" |
|
| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 05:36:55 PM |
|
|
Robert wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:09:42 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Why the hell do you ask that? Do you think I am in favour of denying
abortion? Brush up your comprehension skills. I am in favour of the
truth and against lies, including convenient lies that suit "my side of
the argument".
Honestly you are presenting the arguments against abortion that
have been refuted many times. You are very confusing. Perhaps you are
just confused.
Really? How often have you been asked to provide details on the number
of young girls who die in pregnancy? Not often enough to actually
provoke you to find the answer, obviously.
I am sorry you are confused but I am not sorry that I am thinking for
myself rather than getting all my answers predigested and pre-approved
from the same right-on or righteous source.
Most people don't bother because it's all a smokescreen. There really
is no justification for forcing anybody to give birth.
Of course there isn't.
[...]
"We don't want this child or this pregnancy" is a perfectly acceptable
reason for an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy and no other
justification is required to be fabricated.
"We"? last I checked there was just one person faced with becoming a
parent.
Parthenogenesis already? Oy Vey!
When a child is pregnant there are several interested parties, and the
mother has precisely zero chance of muddling through on her own. A
pregnancy is not a mole or a zit, you might prefer it to be entirely
down to the mother but the real world is always going to be more
complicated than that, especially for a mother who is legally incapable
of working to earn the money to pay for a child's upkeep. Those who the
mother might want to lean on for financial support have a right to voice
their concern and express their view, whether they be the potential
child's father, grandparents or the state. "I will make my decision and
you will pay for the consequences of my decision and I won't even tell
you a thing about it until I demand some money" is not a very smart,
grown-up, enlightened or liberated way to behave.
Abortions are provided on ability to pay. Taxpayers pay the cost for
many, just as they pay for live births. Abortion are cheaper.
The only person involved that has any right to decide is the
pregnant female, whether 12 or 72 it's her body.
In many religious families, a pregnant daughter is in a lot of
danger from parents. Especially ardent Pro-lifers, people and
especially young women, will seek support if they believe it will be
available.
My wife's college roommate is head of the local Family Planning
Clinic. She say's that about 98% of the women seeking abortion are
supported by family. 2% are afraid of their parents, all of whom are
self righteous religious bigots. Some have fled from abusive families.
Pregnant young girls refused abortion often commit suicide, a leading
cause of death for teen age girls.
Check CDC for stats on teenage deaths.
Has an unemployable girl got the right to decide to keep her baby and
make it somebody else's problem without anybody else even being consulted?
It seems the father has no rights except the right to be held
financially liable if the mother decides to finger him as the father. If
she wants to kill his baby for any reason or none, she can, and if she
wants to taunt him with this fact she can. If she decides to keep it he
is stuck with the consequences of her decision.
It seems the state has to sit around and wait to see if the mother calls
upon it to step into the father's shoes and pay and pay and have no say.
No wonder so many girls with no talents or prospects seem in such a rush
to get pregnant, suddenly it's all about them as it has never been
before and never will be again. The world revolves around their womb.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robert" |
|
| Title: Re: A Duty to Submit to Murder? |
18 Oct 2006 09:34:11 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:36:55 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Robert wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:09:42 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ray Fischer wrote:
Martin Willett <mwillett.org@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Why the hell do you ask that? Do you think I am in favour of denying
abortion? Brush up your comprehension skills. I am in favour of the
truth and against lies, including convenient lies that suit "my side of
the argument".
Honestly you are presenting the arguments against abortion that
have been refuted many times. You are very confusing. Perhaps you are
just confused.
Really? How often have you been asked to provide details on the number
of young girls who die in pregnancy? Not often enough to actually
provoke you to find the answer, obviously.
Nope just the stories about women of all ages dying in childbirth
are enough for me.
I am sorry you are confused but I am not sorry that I am thinking for
myself rather than getting all my answers predigested and pre-approved
from the same right-on or righteous source.
I am glad that is the way you are, makes me have a better opinion
of you.
Most people don't bother because it's all a smokescreen. There really
is no justification for forcing anybody to give birth.
Of course there isn't.
[...]
"We don't want this child or this pregnancy" is a perfectly acceptable
reason for an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy and no other
justification is required to be fabricated.
"We"? last I checked there was just one person faced with becoming a
parent.
Parthenogenesis already? Oy Vey!
When a child is pregnant there are several interested parties, and the
mother has precisely zero chance of muddling through on her own. A
pregnancy is not a mole or a zit, you might prefer it to be entirely
down to the mother but the real world is always going to be more
complicated than that, especially for a mother who is legally incapable
of working to earn the money to pay for a child's upkeep. Those who the
mother might want to lean on for financial support have a right to voice
their concern and express their view, whether they be the potential
child's father, grandparents or the state. "I will make my decision and
you will pay for the consequences of my decision and I won't even tell
you a thing about it until I demand some money" is not a very smart,
grown-up, enlightened or liberated way to behave.
Abortions are provided on ability to pay. Taxpayers pay the cost for
many, just as they pay for live births. Abortion are cheaper.
The only person involved that has any right to decide is the
pregnant female, whether 12 or 72 it's her body.
In many religious families, a pregnant daughter is in a lot of
danger from parents. Especially ardent Pro-lifers, people and
especially young women, will seek support if they believe it will be
available.
My wife's college roommate is head of the local Family Planning
Clinic. She say's that about 98% of the women seeking abortion are
supported by family. 2% are afraid of their parents, all of whom are
self righteous religious bigots. Some have fled from abusive families.
Pregnant young girls refused abortion often commit suicide, a leading
cause of death for teen age girls.
Check CDC for stats on teenage deaths.
Has an unemployable girl got the right to decide to keep her baby and
make it somebody else's problem without anybody else even being consulted?
Getting close to requiring a girl to have an abortion, if she can't
prove herself to be capable of supporting the child?
My own opinion is it's none of my business what she chooses, I
support her right to choose.
It seems the father has no rights except the right to be held
financially liable if the mother decides to finger him as the father.
He should have taken precautions to prevent a unwanted pregnancy.
My father told me and I told my son, don't have sex with a woman that
you don't want to be the mother of your child. And still use a condom
unless you want to be a father.
Most men already know about safe sex, they just don't want the
trouble. Tough *****, he should have been sensible. IOW I have no
sympathy for a man that is stupid.
If she wants to kill his baby for any reason or none, she can, and if she
wants to taunt him with this fact she can. If she decides to keep it he
is stuck with the consequences of her decision.
Abortion doesn't kill a baby. killing a baby is murder.
It seems the state has to sit around and wait to see if the mother calls
upon it to step into the father's shoes and pay and pay and have no say.
The stupid ***** should have avoided knocking up a woman, that
wasn't ready to have his child.
No wonder so many girls with no talents or prospects seem in such a rush
to get pregnant, suddenly it's all about them as it has never been
before and never will be again. The world revolves around their womb.
Most have these dreams of being married, and having a husban | | | | | | | | | | | | |
