| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"LP" |
| Date: |
05 Sep 2005 09:06:08 AM |
| Object: |
a few libertarian quotes |
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
....while men usually recognize criminal acts when they are committed
by an individual in the name of his own interest, they often fail to
recognize the very same acts for what they are when they are committed
by some large gang in the name of "social justice" or the "common
good."
- Jarrett Wollstein, SOCIETY WITHOUT COERCION
....we are living in a sick Society filled with people who would not
directly steal from their neighbor but who are willing to demand that
the government do it for them.
- William L. Comer, AVOIDING THE HIGH COST OF DYING (AND MANY OTHER
FINANCIAL DILEMMAS)
From:
http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/ruwart_all.html
.
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| User: "Ike" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
06 Sep 2005 04:35:45 AM |
|
|
"LP" <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uqjoh157jes2odg47e9jt5jrndf0c36bl2@4ax.com...
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
...while men usually recognize criminal acts when they are committed
by an individual in the name of his own interest, they often fail to
recognize the very same acts for what they are when they are committed
by some large gang in the name of "social justice" or the "common
good."
- Jarrett Wollstein, SOCIETY WITHOUT COERCION
...we are living in a sick Society filled with people who would not
directly steal from their neighbor but who are willing to demand that
the government do it for them.
- William L. Comer, AVOIDING THE HIGH COST OF DYING (AND MANY OTHER
FINANCIAL DILEMMAS)
From:
http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/ruwart_all.html
.... property is theft
- Lenin
.
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| User: "James Ascher" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
05 Sep 2005 04:24:36 PM |
|
|
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
.
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| User: "LP" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
05 Sep 2005 06:19:07 PM |
|
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On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:24:36 GMT, James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net>
wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
If you choose not to use some of these services, you are still forced
to pay for them. You are not allowed to create or use a competitor
and, thus, stop paying the taxes.
If it's not stealing, then why don't they just offer these things
without the use of force. If I want a service, I'll pay for it. If I
don't want a service, I should have the option of not paying for it.
If force is involved, it is theft, plain and simple.
The point is, you aren't being given a choice. Instead of paying the
money and then receiving the service, the service is being given to
you and then money is being taken, whether or not you wanted that
particular service. That you benefit from it is irrelevant. If a man
decides to wash your car's windshield at a stoplight, and he does a
good job, are you automatically obligated to pay him? No. Can he
force you to? Of course not. You're only obligated to pay that which
you agreed to pay - which was nothing. The government will wash your
windshield then send policemen after you when you refuse to pay up.
This is absolutely theft.
Theft is the taking of property or services of another without their
consent. Pretty much sums up taxes, don't you think?
+++++++++++
National Libertarian Party
http://www.lp.org/
Libertarian Party of Canada
http://www.libertarian.ca/
The Libertarian Alliance is a non-partisan group fighting statism in
all its forms and working for the creation of a truly free society
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/
The Australian Libertarian Society
http://www.libertarian.org.au/aboutTheAls.jsp
Advocates for Self-Government
http://www.self-gov.org/
Reason advances a free society by developing, applying, and promoting
libertarian principles, including individual liberty, free markets,
and the rule of law.
http://www.reason.org/
Capitalism Magazine
In defense of individual rights.
http://www.capmag.com/
Capitalism.org is the website for the moral social system:
laissez-faire capitalism.
http://www.capitalism.org/
Hundreds of links relevant to libertarian thought:
http://www.mathaba.net/www/libertarian/index.shtml
++++++++++++
The Libertarian Party: Working to slash your taxes!
The Libertarian Party is working every day to cut your taxes. By
contrast, professional politicians from the other parties just want
more of your money, and are busy increasing the size of government.
In the last few decades, the federal government has exploded in size.
No area of your life or business is free from the meddling of
politicians -- especially your wallet.
It doesn't have to be that way. With less government and lower taxes,
you could keep more of what you earn. It would be easier to start new
businesses, build new homes, and fuel stronger economic growth.
Just Defend Our Rights
Libertarians believe that if government's role were limited to
protecting our lives, rights and property, then America would prosper
and thrive as never before. Then the federal government could
concentrate on protecting our Constitutional rights and defending us
from foreign attack. A federal government that did only those two
things, could do them better and at a small fraction of the cost.
How Can We Cut Taxes?
Instead of tending to the basics, government has grown into a bloated
conglomerate of political services that gets larger every year -- with
no end in sight.
For example, politicians spend millions of dollars to urge people not
to smoke -- while spending more millions to subsidize tobacco farmers.
They send billions overseas for foreign aid -- while the federal
deficit swells. They spend millions to subsidize public art -- while
working families struggle to pay their taxes.
Politicians also run trains, bail out savings and loans, construct
houses, sell insurance, print books, and build basketball courts --
you name it! But the fact is, every service supplied by the government
can be provided better and cheaper by private business.
Privatize And Cut Taxes
All over the world, governments are busy selling airlines, power
plants, housing, and factories to private owners. Where inefficient
government bureaucrats lost money and squandered tax dollars,
hard-working private owners now make profits and create new jobs. Why
can't we do the same thing in America?
Defend America: Cut Taxes
Military expenses are over $250 billion a year! A large percentage of
this is spent overseas to defend wealthy countries like Germany and
Japan -- who then wallop us in international trade. Let's take them
off military welfare. We can defend America better and save at least
$100 billion a year in taxes.
Stop Bailing Out Industry
No one has the right to cover his losses at taxpayer expense -- and
yet wealthy corporations demand exactly that. The federal government
has bailed out railroads, banks, and other corporations with your tax
dollars. This must stop!
Replace Welfare: Cut Taxes
The bulk of your welfare tax dollars goes to pay the handsome salaries
of well-educated welfare workers. The poor get little from government
welfare except meager handouts and a cycle of despair. Let's get
government out of the charity business. Private charities and groups
do a better and more efficient job of helping the truly needy get back
on their feet.
Why An Income Tax?
Before 1913, federal income taxes were rare and short-lived. America
became the most prosperous nation on earth. The U.S. Government did
not try to police the world or play "nanny" to everyone from cradle to
grave. People took responsibility for themselves, their families, and
their communities. That is how the founders of America thought it
should be. And it worked. It can again!
It's Time For Action
Republican and Democratic politicians have refused to reduce the size
or cost of government. So we need your help to build a powerful new
political party to get the job done -- the Libertarian Party! If you
agree, please use the attached form to join the Libertarian Party or
to request more information
.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
05 Sep 2005 09:20:46 PM |
|
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LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:24:36 GMT, James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net>
wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
If you choose not to use some of these services, you are still forced
to pay for them.
No, you aren't. Just leave.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
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| User: "Dr. Zarkov" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
06 Sep 2005 03:06:17 PM |
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Brian Westley wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net> wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
If you choose not to use some of these services, you are still forced
to pay for them.
No, you aren't. Just leave.
What gives governments the right to rule this land in the first place
and tell people to leave if they don’t like it?
Governments gained control over areas not by any "social contract" but
by FORCE. In America, "government" militarily defeated other European
governments and massacred the native inhabitants. Then it claimed: We
govern this land by this "social contract" we made with the people
living here!
The Cherokees, for example, didn't seem to be part of this contract:
http://ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html
"The killing, enslavement, and land theft had begun with the arrival of
the Europeans.
The Cherokees in 1828 ... had assimilated many European-style customs.
They built roads, schools and churches, had a system of representational
government, and were farmers and cattle ranchers. A Cherokee alphabet,
the "Talking Leaves" was perfected by Sequoyah.
In 1830 the Congress of the United States passed the "Indian Removal
Act. "President Jackson quickly signed the bill into law. The Cherokees
attempted to fight removal legally by challenging the removal laws in
the Supreme Court. Early that summer General Scott and the United States
Army began the invasion of the Cherokee Nation.
In one of the saddest episodes of our brief history, men, women, and
children were taken from their land, herded into makeshift forts with
minimal facilities and food, then forced to march a thousand miles.
Under the generally indifferent army commanders, human losses for the
first groups of Cherokee removed were extremely high. About 4000
Cherokee died as a result of the removal. The route they traversed and
the journey itself became known as 'The Trail of Tears'."
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
05 Sep 2005 11:48:42 PM |
|
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On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:20:46 -0000, Brian Westley <westley@visi.com>
wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:24:36 GMT, James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net>
wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
If you choose not to use some of these services, you are still forced
to pay for them.
No, you aren't. Just leave.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
Let's give him back the few cents of his taxes that were used over the
years to build the internet then we will no longer have to worry about
him posting.
BTW he has no clue about that which riled Rand.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
.
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| User: "LP" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
06 Sep 2005 02:01:02 PM |
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On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 00:48:42 -0400, AngryJohn
<angryjohn@belief.comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:20:46 -0000, Brian Westley <westley@visi.com>
wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:24:36 GMT, James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net>
wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
If you choose not to use some of these services, you are still forced
to pay for them.
No, you aren't. Just leave.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
Let's give him back the few cents of his taxes that were used over the
years to build the internet then we will no longer have to worry about
him posting.
The income I have earned that has been taken from me against my will
is only a small part of the problem. Taxes on production harms
everyone.
I love the principles of freedom and individual rights that this
country was founded upon. I want to help the US return to the ideals
that made her great.
I am very concerned about the current direction of the United
States. I'm concerned about what that direction means for us as
individuals, and for the future of our families and our communities.
It seems that no matter which party is in power, government keeps
getting bigger, more powerful, more expensive, and more meddlesome.
There is very little difference between the Democrats and Republicans
in Congress. The only difference might be which special interest
groups they're most devoted to. Frankly, neither party seems to care
about the future of our country -- they only care about staying in
power.
I am absolutely not going anywhere, I am going to stay right here
and do something about this trend
I am committed to America's heritage of freedom. Like most
Americans, I also believe that government has become too large, too
powerful, too expensive, and meddles too much in our personal lives.
Libertarians promote individual liberty, personal responsibility, and
limiting the size, power, expense, and intrusiveness of government.
From the LP web site:
Libertarians saved taxpayers $2.2 billion in the past year.
The Libertarian Party is working every day to cut your taxes. By
contrast, politicians in the two older parties just want more of your
money and are busy increasing the size of government.
Case in point: The federal budget has increased by an enormous 33
percent over the past four years under President Bush as he and the
Democrats worked in gleeful, bipartisan harmony to expand government.
Meanwhile, Libertarians around the country were working to shrink
government and let you keep more of your money. Here's how we saved
taxpayers an astronomical $2.2 billion in 2004:
http://www.lp.org/article_89.shtml
National Libertarian Party
http://www.lp.org/
Organizations:
http://www.lp.org/organization.shtml
Libertarian Party of Canada
http://www.libertarian.ca/
The Libertarian Alliance is a non-partisan group fighting statism in
all its forms and working for the creation of a truly free society
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/
The Australian Libertarian Society
http://www.libertarian.org.au/aboutTheAls.jsp
Advocates for Self-Government
http://www.self-gov.org/
Reason advances a free society by developing, applying, and promoting
libertarian principles, including individual liberty, free markets,
and the rule of law.
http://www.reason.org/
Capitalism Magazine
In defense of individual rights.
http://www.capmag.com/
Capitalism.org is the website for the moral social system:
laissez-faire capitalism.
http://www.capitalism.org/
Hundreds of links relevant to libertarian thought:
http://www.mathaba.net/www/libertarian/index.shtml
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
....while men usually recognize criminal acts when they are committed
by an individual in the name of his own interest, they often fail to
recognize the very same acts for what they are when they are committed
by some large gang in the name of "social justice" or the "common
good."
- Jarrett Wollstein, SOCIETY WITHOUT COERCION
....we are living in a sick Society filled with people who would not
directly steal from their neighbor but who are willing to demand that
the government do it for them.
- William L. Comer, AVOIDING THE HIGH COST OF DYING (AND MANY OTHER
FINANCIAL DILEMMAS)
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
|
| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
08 Sep 2005 09:56:32 PM |
|
|
On 6 Sep 2005 14:01:02 -0500, LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 00:48:42 -0400, AngryJohn
<angryjohn@belief.comcast.net> wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:20:46 -0000, Brian Westley <westley@visi.com>
wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:24:36 GMT, James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net>
wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
If you choose not to use some of these services, you are still forced
to pay for them.
No, you aren't. Just leave.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
Let's give him back the few cents of his taxes that were used over the
years to build the internet then we will no longer have to worry about
him posting.
The income I have earned that has been taken from me against my will
is only a small part of the problem. Taxes on production harms
everyone.
Yet even the libertarians, at least the site here in MD seems to
indicate, believe that a certain amount of taxes are a necessity.
There are services that the governments of the city, counties, and
states provide that an individual just cannot do in a manner that
would be safe for them and everyone else. See what has happened in NO
with no water to flush the toilets.
I love the principles of freedom and individual rights that this
country was founded upon. I want to help the US return to the ideals
that made her great.
I cannot argue with that.
I am very concerned about the current direction of the United
States. I'm concerned about what that direction means for us as
individuals, and for the future of our families and our communities.
It seems that no matter which party is in power, government keeps
getting bigger, more powerful, more expensive, and more meddlesome.
There is very little difference between the Democrats and Republicans
in Congress. The only difference might be which special interest
groups they're most devoted to. Frankly, neither party seems to care
about the future of our country -- they only care about staying in
power.
I agree. Politicians are out there for the politicians.
I am absolutely not going anywhere, I am going to stay right here
and do something about this trend
I am committed to America's heritage of freedom. Like most
Americans, I also believe that government has become too large, too
powerful, too expensive, and meddles too much in our personal lives.
Libertarians promote individual liberty, personal responsibility, and
limiting the size, power, expense, and intrusiveness of government.
From the LP web site:
Libertarians saved taxpayers $2.2 billion in the past year.
The Libertarian Party is working every day to cut your taxes. By
contrast, politicians in the two older parties just want more of your
money and are busy increasing the size of government.
Case in point: The federal budget has increased by an enormous 33
percent over the past four years under President Bush as he and the
Democrats worked in gleeful, bipartisan harmony to expand government.
Meanwhile, Libertarians around the country were working to shrink
government and let you keep more of your money. Here's how we saved
taxpayers an astronomical $2.2 billion in 2004:
http://www.lp.org/article_89.shtml
National Libertarian Party
http://www.lp.org/
Organizations:
http://www.lp.org/organization.shtml
Libertarian Party of Canada
http://www.libertarian.ca/
The Libertarian Alliance is a non-partisan group fighting statism in
all its forms and working for the creation of a truly free society
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/
The Australian Libertarian Society
http://www.libertarian.org.au/aboutTheAls.jsp
Advocates for Self-Government
http://www.self-gov.org/
Reason advances a free society by developing, applying, and promoting
libertarian principles, including individual liberty, free markets,
and the rule of law.
http://www.reason.org/
Capitalism Magazine
In defense of individual rights.
http://www.capmag.com/
Capitalism.org is the website for the moral social system:
laissez-faire capitalism.
http://www.capitalism.org/
Hundreds of links relevant to libertarian thought:
http://www.mathaba.net/www/libertarian/index.shtml
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
...while men usually recognize criminal acts when they are committed
by an individual in the name of his own interest, they often fail to
recognize the very same acts for what they are when they are committed
by some large gang in the name of "social justice" or the "common
good."
- Jarrett Wollstein, SOCIETY WITHOUT COERCION
...we are living in a sick Society filled with people who would not
directly steal from their neighbor but who are willing to demand that
the government do it for them.
- William L. Comer, AVOIDING THE HIGH COST OF DYING (AND MANY OTHER
FINANCIAL DILEMMAS)
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
.
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
06 Sep 2005 01:47:02 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:20:46 -0000, Brian Westley <westley@visi.com>
wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:24:36 GMT, James Ascher <jwa1968@earthlink.net>
wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
If Ms. Rand (cursed be her name ;>)) is talking here about taxation as
theft, then she is inherently wrong. The public, individually and
collectively, receives services for their taxes: police and fire
services, water and sanitation, roads, education, and many more.
James
If you choose not to use some of these services, you are still forced
to pay for them.
No, you aren't. Just leave.
I love the principles of freedom and individual rights that this
country was founded upon. I want to help the US return to the ideals
that made her great.
I am very concerned about the current direction of the United
States. I'm concerned about what that direction means for us as
individuals, and for the future of our families and our communities.
It seems that no matter which party is in power, government keeps
getting bigger, more powerful, more expensive, and more meddlesome.
There is very little difference between the Democrats and Republicans
in Congress. The only difference might be which special interest
groups they're most devoted to. Frankly, neither party seems to care
about the future of our country -- they only care about staying in
power.
I am absolutely not going anywhere, I am going to stay right here
and do something about this trend
I am committed to America's heritage of freedom. Like most
Americans, I also believe that government has become too large, too
powerful, too expensive, and meddles too much in our personal lives.
Libertarians promote individual liberty, personal responsibility, and
limiting the size, power, expense, and intrusiveness of government.
From the LP web site:
Libertarians saved taxpayers $2.2 billion in the past year.
The Libertarian Party is working every day to cut your taxes. By
contrast, politicians in the two older parties just want more of your
money and are busy increasing the size of government.
Case in point: The federal budget has increased by an enormous 33
percent over the past four years under President Bush as he and the
Democrats worked in gleeful, bipartisan harmony to expand government.
Meanwhile, Libertarians around the country were working to shrink
government and let you keep more of your money. Here's how we saved
taxpayers an astronomical $2.2 billion in 2004:
http://www.lp.org/article_89.shtml
National Libertarian Party
http://www.lp.org/
Organizations:
http://www.lp.org/organization.shtml
Libertarian Party of Canada
http://www.libertarian.ca/
The Libertarian Alliance is a non-partisan group fighting statism in
all its forms and working for the creation of a truly free society
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/
The Australian Libertarian Society
http://www.libertarian.org.au/aboutTheAls.jsp
Advocates for Self-Government
http://www.self-gov.org/
Reason advances a free society by developing, applying, and promoting
libertarian principles, including individual liberty, free markets,
and the rule of law.
http://www.reason.org/
Capitalism Magazine
In defense of individual rights.
http://www.capmag.com/
Capitalism.org is the website for the moral social system:
laissez-faire capitalism.
http://www.capitalism.org/
Hundreds of links relevant to libertarian thought:
http://www.mathaba.net/www/libertarian/index.shtml
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| User: "Robi" |
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| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
05 Sep 2005 10:35:18 AM |
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LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
...while men usually recognize criminal acts when they are committed
by an individual in the name of his own interest, they often fail to
recognize the very same acts for what they are when they are committed
by some large gang in the name of "social justice" or the "common
good."
- Jarrett Wollstein, SOCIETY WITHOUT COERCION
...we are living in a sick Society filled with people who would not
directly steal from their neighbor but who are willing to demand that
the government do it for them.
- William L. Comer, AVOIDING THE HIGH COST OF DYING (AND MANY OTHER
FINANCIAL DILEMMAS)
From:
http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/ruwart_all.html
Are you arguing against taxes?
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
06 Sep 2005 07:52:10 PM |
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On 5 Sep 2005 08:35:18 -0700, "Robi" <robi_tola@hotmail.com> thought
hard and wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
...while men usually recognize criminal acts when they are committed
by an individual in the name of his own interest, they often fail to
recognize the very same acts for what they are when they are committed
by some large gang in the name of "social justice" or the "common
good."
- Jarrett Wollstein, SOCIETY WITHOUT COERCION
...we are living in a sick Society filled with people who would not
directly steal from their neighbor but who are willing to demand that
the government do it for them.
- William L. Comer, AVOIDING THE HIGH COST OF DYING (AND MANY OTHER
FINANCIAL DILEMMAS)
From:
http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/ruwart_all.html
Are you arguing against taxes?
Is that not what libertarians do?
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 17 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
05 Sep 2005 07:02:03 PM |
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On 5 Sep 2005 08:35:18 -0700, "Robi" <robi_tola@hotmail.com> wrote:
LP wrote:
How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it
is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality?
Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist
purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify
these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people.
- Walter Williams, ALL IT TAKES IS GUTS
A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort... is
not strictly speaking a society, but a mob held together by
institutionalized gang rule.
- Ayn Rand, THE VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS
...while men usually recognize criminal acts when they are committed
by an individual in the name of his own interest, they often fail to
recognize the very same acts for what they are when they are committed
by some large gang in the name of "social justice" or the "common
good."
- Jarrett Wollstein, SOCIETY WITHOUT COERCION
...we are living in a sick Society filled with people who would not
directly steal from their neighbor but who are willing to demand that
the government do it for them.
- William L. Comer, AVOIDING THE HIGH COST OF DYING (AND MANY OTHER
FINANCIAL DILEMMAS)
From:
http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/ruwart_all.html
Are you arguing against taxes?
I am arguing for the eventual elimination of taxes, especially taxes
on productivity. It is important to note that these taxes cannot be
eliminated all at once. It will take time to wean people off a system
that they mistakenly believe is a necessity and mistakenly believe is
to their benefit. Most of these services must be replaced with
free-market alternatives.
Productive people create value. They create wealth. They create a
better standard living. The productivity and products of one person
can be traded from the product of another. This value is added to the
"pie" available to all. Taxes on productivity reduces the amount of
product available, which also drives up the price. This hurts the poor
as well as the rich. It is bad for society as a whole. More
importantly, it is a violation of the right of the individual to enjoy
the fruits of their own labor. Society is a collection of individuals.
Anything that is universally harmful to the individual, is also
harmful to society.
++++++++++++
The Libertarian Party: Working to slash your taxes!
The Libertarian Party is working every day to cut your taxes. By
contrast, professional politicians from the other parties just want
more of your money, and are busy increasing the size of government.
In the last few decades, the federal government has exploded in size.
No area of your life or business is free from the meddling of
politicians -- especially your wallet.
It doesn't have to be that way. With less government and lower taxes,
you could keep more of what you earn. It would be easier to start new
businesses, build new homes, and fuel stronger economic growth.
Just Defend Our Rights
Libertarians believe that if government's role were limited to
protecting our lives, rights and property, then America would prosper
and thrive as never before. Then the federal government could
concentrate on protecting our Constitutional rights and defending us
from foreign attack. A federal government that did only those two
things, could do them better and at a small fraction of the cost.
How Can We Cut Taxes?
Instead of tending to the basics, government has grown into a bloated
conglomerate of political services that gets larger every year -- with
no end in sight.
For example, politicians spend millions of dollars to urge people not
to smoke -- while spending more millions to subsidize tobacco farmers.
They send billions overseas for foreign aid -- while the federal
deficit swells. They spend millions to subsidize public art -- while
working families struggle to pay their taxes.
Politicians also run trains, bail out savings and loans, construct
houses, sell insurance, print books, and build basketball courts --
you name it! But the fact is, every service supplied by the government
can be provided better and cheaper by private business.
Privatize And Cut Taxes
All over the world, governments are busy selling airlines, power
plants, housing, and factories to private owners. Where inefficient
government bureaucrats lost money and squandered tax dollars,
hard-working private owners now make profits and create new jobs. Why
can't we do the same thing in America?
Defend America: Cut Taxes
Military expenses are over $250 billion a year! A large percentage of
this is spent overseas to defend wealthy countries like Germany and
Japan -- who then wallop us in international trade. Let's take them
off military welfare. We can defend America better and save at least
$100 billion a year in taxes.
Stop Bailing Out Industry
No one has the right to cover his losses at taxpayer expense -- and
yet wealthy corporations demand exactly that. The federal government
has bailed out railroads, banks, and other corporations with your tax
dollars. This must stop!
Replace Welfare: Cut Taxes
The bulk of your welfare tax dollars goes to pay the handsome salaries
of well-educated welfare workers. The poor get little from government
welfare except meager handouts and a cycle of despair. Let's get
government out of the charity business. Private charities and groups
do a better and more efficient job of helping the truly needy get back
on their feet.
Why An Income Tax?
Before 1913, federal income taxes were rare and short-lived. America
became the most prosperous nation on earth. The U.S. Government did
not try to police the world or play "nanny" to everyone from cradle to
grave. People took responsibility for themselves, their families, and
their communities. That is how the founders of America thought it
should be. And it worked. It can again!
It's Time For Action
Republican and Democratic politicians have refused to reduce the size
or cost of government. So we need your help to build a powerful new
political party to get the job done -- the Libertarian Party! If you
agree, please use the attached form to join the Libertarian Party or
to request more information
National Libertarian Party
http://www.lp.org/
Libertarian Party of Canada
http://www.libertarian.ca/
The Libertarian Alliance is a non-partisan group fighting statism in
all its forms and working for the creation of a truly free society
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/
The Australian Libertarian Society
http://www.libertarian.org.au/aboutTheAls.jsp
Advocates for Self-Government
http://www.self-gov.org/
Reason advances a free society by developing, applying, and promoting
libertarian principles, including individual liberty, free markets,
and the rule of law.
http://www.reason.org/
Capitalism Magazine
In defense of individual rights.
http://www.capmag.com/
Capitalism.org is the website for the moral social system:
laissez-faire capitalism.
http://www.capitalism.org/
Hundreds of links relevant to libertarian thought:
http://www.mathaba.net/www/libertarian/index.shtml
Budgets are a drag. It's a lot easier--and a lot more fun--to spend
other people's money. The U.S. government manages to do this year
after year with alacrity and enthusiasm.
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the
Constitution," James Madison once wrote, "which granted a right to
Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their
constituents." Today, Madison's notion has been tossed away, and
Congress spends billions of dollars on hundreds of meaningless
projects and proposals.
The Taxpayer's Bill of Rights (TABOR) gives Americans a practical way
to stop wasteful, out-of-control government spending. Americans for
Limited Government is working to implement TABOR bills and fiscal
responsibility throughout the country.
http://www.getliberty.org/sites/lg/issues_taxpayers_bill_of_rights.aspx
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| User: "Robi" |
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| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
06 Sep 2005 11:24:02 AM |
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Are you arguing against taxes?
I am arguing for the eventual elimination of taxes, especially taxes
on productivity. It is important to note that these taxes cannot be
eliminated all at once. It will take time to wean people off a system
that they mistakenly believe is a necessity and mistakenly believe is
to their benefit. Most of these services must be replaced with
free-market alternatives.
Productive people create value. They create wealth. They create a
better standard living. The productivity and products of one person
can be traded from the product of another. This value is added to the
"pie" available to all. Taxes on productivity reduces the amount of
product available, which also drives up the price. This hurts the poor
as well as the rich. It is bad for society as a whole. More
importantly, it is a violation of the right of the individual to enjoy
the fruits of their own labor. Society is a collection of individuals.
Anything that is universally harmful to the individual, is also
harmful to society.
I see.
I prefer the situation we have now.
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: a few libertarian quotes |
06 Sep 2005 05:08:44 PM |
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In article <3lkph15k67f55uj2no9m9qq84ceiq4nlbe@4ax.com>, LP
<whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
The Libertarian Party: Working to make freeloading politically fashionable!
-chib
--
Member of SMASH
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
(email: change out to in)
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