a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Jeff Stueber"
Date: 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 AM
Object: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true
I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.
Is the basis for morality natural or supernatural? It is neither. The basis
for morality is conventional, which means the rules of morality were
fabricated by human beings over many generations. These rules are: to
abstain from injury, to abstain from lying, theft, assault, killing, and so
forth. These rules were not the invention of God. No one in this room
imagines that if there were not a God to tell us these things, we would not
know any better. [i]
Certainly this idea has strong appeal, but is horribly wrong when it comes
to how we ruminate on moral obligations and use them to create our laws.
Normally we discover, by .. What we are to do and then craft our laws to fit
those innate obligations. Take, for instance, the debate over abortion.
The pro-choice and pro-life do not agree among themselves what is correct
and then craft laws to reflect that. They instead grapple with their own
innate knowledge of the moral law and then attempt to craft laws that agree
with what is morally correct. Of course both sides disagree, but that is
more a reflection of our inability to properly understand the moral law and
the fact our moral intuition can sometimes be damaged by our own personal
biases (the desire for sexual activity devoid of consequences, for
instance). Humanist evolutionist arguments for the non-existence of
knowledge of the "moral law" proves faulty on every turn.
This evolutionist argument is so poor that humanists themselves cannot
remain consistent on this issue. Take, for instance, Paul Kurtz who
suggests out loud, in Forbidden Fruit, that it was immoral for Abraham to
kill Isaac and immoral for God to demand Abraham kill him. Clearly if Kurtz
had taken his own evolutionist advice, he would have suggested that the
immorality or morality of killing one's son would have depended on the
culture one was in at the time. Clearly we believe killing one's child is
immoral, but that is our culture and someone else may differ in beliefs from
us. Who are we to suppose, just because we think so, that others, even God,
are immoral for thinking different?
I surveyed the arguments for the existence or non-existence of the "soul"
next and suggested there are philosophical and medical evidences for such an
entities existence and near-death experiences confirm such an existence.
Then, later in discussing the reasonableness of believing in Jesus'
resurrection, I tie these evidences together.
" There is one last salient point I want to add to this debate which links
the sayings, life, and resurrection of Jesus with the tales of near-death
experiences previously cited. When Jesus communes with the father in an
occurrence often seen as a fulfillment of his promise that he could come in
power and majesty, he is seen as a being of light. Amazingly, this is
exactly how Jesus and other spiritual beings are seen in near-death
experiences; they are creatures that seemingly are made of nothing but
light. Jesus, in His resurrected body, is able to enter a room and leave
the room, disappearing almost magically, merely by desiring to do so.
Compare this with the experience of Thetus Tenney, and others whose
spiritual movement transcends spatial dimensions. There is no way for these
disciples to have known what information would come out of near-death
experiences. Yet, for all the primitiveness of the environment in which
these Jews lived, at least compared to modern ideas, they got the spiritual
nature of humans exactly right!"
I then relate this to the moral argument because people who have NDEs often
relate a "judgment" occurring of them either from some divine or semi-divine
being or themselves. This suggests a sort of moral law that is not merely
dependent on our culture's whims but one that transcends cultures - in
essence, an absolutist one.
I junction into an argument on the bias inherent in evolutionist philosophy
and quote from Richard Dawkins from a debate between him and Francis
Collins, and later quote from Robert Jastrow who expresses his naturalistic
sentiments in the video The Privileged Planet.
[Dawkins] What I am skeptical about is the idea that whatever wonderful
revelation does come in the science of the future, it will turn out to be
one of the particular historical religions that people happen to have
dreamed up. When we [he and Collins] started out and we were talking about
the origins of the universe and the physical constants, I provided what I
thought were cogent arguments against a supernatural intelligent designer.
But it does seem to me to be worthy idea. Refutable - but nevertheless
grand and big enough to be worthy of respect. I don't see the Olympian gods
or Jesus coming down and dying on the Cross as worthy of that grandeur.
They strike me as parochial. If there is a God, it's going to be a whole
lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any
theologian of any religion has ever proposed.
[Jastrow] Just as I can't believe there was a creator, I can't believe
this all happened by chance which implies there was a creator. You see, I'm
at a completely hopeless bind and I stay there. Again, I find it hard to
believe that this is all a matter of atoms and molecules and so I try to fit
into my concept of the world the conclusion that there is a larger force of
some kind which we can call "god" or you can call it whatever. But I can't
accept that. I'm what's called a materialist in philosophy. It means that
I believe the world consists entirely of material substances . . . that's
what my science tells me.
What I do conclude from the discussion of bias is that if you wanted to
craft a theory of how people would act if the Biblical creationist theory
about man's rebellion against god were true, you would find no better
examples of the theory being true then Dawkins and others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[i] http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-taylor1.html
.

User: "Josef Balluch"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 10:03:14 PM
"Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@charter.net> wrote in
news:1xB1j.12$JP4.9@newsfe06.lga:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with
the general public.

Ah! And posting it to Usenet is the way to do that. Right?

Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding
what is normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a
debate with William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the
origin of the knowledge of moral obligations.

[ snip the inevitable Argument from Ignorance ]

I surveyed the arguments for the existence or non-existence of the
"soul"
next and suggested there are philosophical and medical evidences for
such an entities existence and near-death experiences confirm such an
existence. Then, later in discussing the reasonableness of believing in
Jesus' resurrection, I tie these evidences together.

[ snip another Argument from Ignorance ]

I then relate this to the moral argument because people who have NDEs
often relate a "judgment" occurring of them either from some divine or
semi-divine being or themselves. This suggests a sort of moral law that
is not merely dependent on our culture's whims but one that transcends
cultures - in essence, an absolutist one.

LOL !!
....

What I do conclude from the discussion of bias is that if you wanted to
craft a theory of how people would act if the Biblical creationist
theory about man's rebellion against god were true, you would find no
better examples of the theory being true then Dawkins and others.

yaaaawwwwnnnnn
Sorry Einstein, but it is quite common for ideas have both proponents and
opponents. If you are suggesting that opposition to an idea validates that
idea then your opposition to atheism must validate atheism.
Regards,
Josef
Every age is fed on illusions, lest men should renounce life
early and the human race come to an end.
-- Joseph Conrad
.

User: "Doc Smartass"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 05:47:22 PM
"Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@charter.net> wrote in
news:1xB1j.12$JP4.9@newsfe06.lga:

Subject: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found
it's not true

Don't waste my time, boy.
--
Doc Smartass, BAAWA Knight of Heckling
aa # 1939
No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices.
--Edward R. Murrow
.

User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 02:42:59 PM
"Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1xB1j.12$JP4.9@newsfe06.lga...

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism"

That's nice. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. That's it. Get over
it.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.

User: "Virgil"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's true 23 Nov 2007 12:56:36 PM
In article <1xB1j.12$JP4.9@newsfe06.lga>,
"Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@charter.net>
is as parochial as those he criticizes.
.

User: "Scott Richter"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 09:52:05 AM
Jeff Stueber <jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.


Is the basis for morality natural or supernatural? It is neither. The basis
for morality is conventional, which means the rules of morality were
fabricated by human beings over many generations.

Right at the start, your argument goes off the tracks. To say that
morality is fabricated by humans over many generations IS to say that
morality is natural. Period. End of story.

Take, for instance, the debate over abortion. The pro-choice and pro-life
do not agree among themselves what is correct and then craft laws to
reflect that. They instead grapple with their own innate knowledge of the
moral law and then attempt to craft laws that agree with what is morally
correct. Of course both sides disagree, but that is more a reflection of
our inability to properly understand the moral law and the fact our moral
intuition can sometimes be damaged by our own personal biases (the desire
for sexual activity devoid of consequences, for instance).

The continuation of this train wreck to the subject of abortion where
you try to slip supernaturalism ("the moral law") into the discussion.
Your religious bias couldn't be more clear if it was written in neon.

Humanist evolutionist arguments for the non-existence of knowledge of the
"moral law" proves faulty on every turn. This evolutionist argument is so
poor that humanists themselves cannot remain consistent on this issue.

What "humanist evolutionist argument"? That's a completely meaningless
term. Seems to me you're just grasping for mindless inflammatory labels,
with no real objective beyond that.

I then relate this to the moral argument because people who have NDEs often
relate a "judgment" occurring of them either from some divine or semi-divine
being or themselves. This suggests a sort of moral law that is not merely
dependent on our culture's whims but one that transcends cultures - in
essence, an absolutist one.

It suggests no such thing. What it DOES suggest is that there are
physiological processes occurring in an organism under stress. We don't
understand those processes fully, but all you're doing is falling into
the "god in the gaps" fallacy. We've heard that one a million times
before.

What I do conclude from the discussion of bias is that if you wanted to
craft a theory of how people would act if the Biblical creationist theory
about man's rebellion against god were true, you would find no better
examples of the theory being true then Dawkins and others.

What I conclude from your writing is practically nothing. You haven't
advanced a single interesting idea, and have made several common logical
errors. I give it a 3 out of 10. Better luck next time, little fella.

.

User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it'snot true 23 Nov 2007 09:37:40 AM
Jeff Stueber wrote:
< A whole lot of nothing >


You are wrong. Atheism can be summed up in four little words:
I don't believe you.
Bye bye now, and thanks for trying.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
.
User: "Doc Smartass"

Title: AA--AQOTM Nom (Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true) 23 Nov 2007 06:12:09 PM
"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@getnet.net> wrote in news:6n8j15-p603.ln1
@dhcpdns2.ddsoho.com:

Jeff Stueber wrote:
< A whole lot of nothing >

Nominated bit:

You are wrong. Atheism can be summed up in four little words:

I don't believe you.

I sometimes get grabbed by a witty turn of phrase, but this is profound in
its simplicity and directness.
Seconds?
--
Doc Smartass, BAAWA Knight of Heckling
aa # 1939
No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices.
--Edward R. Murrow
.
User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"

Title: Re: AA--AQOTM Nom (Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true) 23 Nov 2007 06:34:47 PM
"Doc Smartass" <gekido@astroskivviesboymail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99F1B934F118askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18...

"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@getnet.net> wrote in news:6n8j15-p603.ln1
@dhcpdns2.ddsoho.com:

Jeff Stueber wrote:
< A whole lot of nothing >


Nominated bit:

You are wrong. Atheism can be summed up in four little words:

I don't believe you.


I sometimes get grabbed by a witty turn of phrase, but this is profound in
its simplicity and directness.

Seconds?

--
Doc Smartass, BAAWA Knight of Heckling
aa # 1939

Definitely. Seconded.
That is an excellent summary of what atheism is.
--
rb #2187
.
User: "*nemo*"

Title: Re: AA--AQOTM Nom (Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism:I found it's not true) 27 Nov 2007 03:40:21 AM
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:

"Doc Smartass" <gekido@astroskivviesboymail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99F1B934F118askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18...

"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@getnet.net> wrote in news:6n8j15-p603.ln1
@dhcpdns2.ddsoho.com:

Jeff Stueber wrote:
< A whole lot of nothing >

Nominated bit:

You are wrong. Atheism can be summed up in four little words:

I don't believe you.

I sometimes get grabbed by a witty turn of phrase, but this is profound in
its simplicity and directness.

Seconds?

--
Doc Smartass, BAAWA Knight of Heckling
aa # 1939


Definitely. Seconded.

Recorded

That is an excellent summary of what atheism is.

--
rb #2187


--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.


User: "Douglas Berry"

Title: Re: AA--AQOTM Nom (Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true) 24 Nov 2007 12:26:31 PM
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:12:09 GMT Doc Smartass
<gekido@astroskivviesboymail.com> carved the following into the hard
stone of alt.atheism

"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@getnet.net> wrote in news:6n8j15-p603.ln1
@dhcpdns2.ddsoho.com:

Jeff Stueber wrote:
< A whole lot of nothing >


Nominated bit:

You are wrong. Atheism can be summed up in four little words:

I don't believe you.


I sometimes get grabbed by a witty turn of phrase, but this is profound in
its simplicity and directness.

Seconds?

Seconded.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.



User: "J Forbes"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it'snot true 23 Nov 2007 08:40:44 AM
Jeff Stueber wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism"

yup, you're clueless.
Jim
.

User: "L. Raymond"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 12:53:51 PM
Jeff Stueber wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public.

What a waste of time. The only way to "refute" atheism is to produce a
god. Nothing in the dribble you posted offers evidence of a god, so you
still have lots of work to do.
--
L. Raymond
.

User: "TT"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I foundit's not true 23 Nov 2007 09:13:29 AM
On 11/23/07 9:33 AM, in article 1xB1j.12$JP4.9@newsfe06.lga, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.





Is the basis for morality natural or supernatural? It is neither. The basis
for morality is conventional, which means the rules of morality were
fabricated by human beings over many generations. These rules are: to
abstain from injury, to abstain from lying, theft, assault, killing, and so
forth. These rules were not the invention of God. No one in this room
imagines that if there were not a God to tell us these things, we would not
know any better. [i]



Certainly this idea has strong appeal, but is horribly wrong when it comes
to how we ruminate on moral obligations and use them to create our laws.
Normally we discover, by .. What we are to do and then craft our laws to fit
those innate obligations. Take, for instance, the debate over abortion.
The pro-choice and pro-life do not agree among themselves what is correct
and then craft laws to reflect that. They instead grapple with their own
innate knowledge of the moral law and then attempt to craft laws that agree
with what is morally correct. Of course both sides disagree, but that is
more a reflection of our inability to properly understand the moral law and
the fact our moral intuition can sometimes be damaged by our own personal
biases (the desire for sexual activity devoid of consequences, for
instance). Humanist evolutionist arguments for the non-existence of
knowledge of the "moral law" proves faulty on every turn.

This evolutionist argument is so poor that humanists themselves cannot
remain consistent on this issue. Take, for instance, Paul Kurtz who
suggests out loud, in Forbidden Fruit, that it was immoral for Abraham to
kill Isaac and immoral for God to demand Abraham kill him. Clearly if Kurtz
had taken his own evolutionist advice, he would have suggested that the
immorality or morality of killing one's son would have depended on the
culture one was in at the time. Clearly we believe killing one's child is
immoral, but that is our culture and someone else may differ in beliefs from
us. Who are we to suppose, just because we think so, that others, even God,
are immoral for thinking different?

I surveyed the arguments for the existence or non-existence of the "soul"
next and suggested there are philosophical and medical evidences for such an
entities existence and near-death experiences confirm such an existence.
Then, later in discussing the reasonableness of believing in Jesus'
resurrection, I tie these evidences together.

Is this where you started drinking?



" There is one last salient point I want to add to this debate which links
the sayings, life, and resurrection of Jesus with the tales of near-death
experiences previously cited. When Jesus communes with the father in an
occurrence often seen as a fulfillment of his promise that he could come in
power and majesty, he is seen as a being of light. Amazingly, this is
exactly how Jesus and other spiritual beings are seen in near-death
experiences; they are creatures that seemingly are made of nothing but
light. Jesus, in His resurrected body, is able to enter a room and leave
the room, disappearing almost magically, merely by desiring to do so.
Compare this with the experience of Thetus Tenney, and others whose
spiritual movement transcends spatial dimensions. There is no way for these
disciples to have known what information would come out of near-death
experiences. Yet, for all the primitiveness of the environment in which
these Jews lived, at least compared to modern ideas, they got the spiritual
nature of humans exactly right!"

Switched to crystal meth about here...



I then relate this to the moral argument because people who have NDEs often
relate a "judgment" occurring of them either from some divine or semi-divine
being or themselves. This suggests a sort of moral law that is not merely
dependent on our culture's whims but one that transcends cultures - in
essence, an absolutist one.


I think you had a head injury here...


I junction into an argument on the bias inherent in evolutionist philosophy
and quote from Richard Dawkins from a debate between him and Francis
Collins, and later quote from Robert Jastrow who expresses his naturalistic
sentiments in the video The Privileged Planet.



[Dawkins] What I am skeptical about is the idea that whatever wonderful
revelation does come in the science of the future, it will turn out to be
one of the particular historical religions that people happen to have
dreamed up. When we [he and Collins] started out and we were talking about
the origins of the universe and the physical constants, I provided what I
thought were cogent arguments against a supernatural intelligent designer.
But it does seem to me to be worthy idea. Refutable - but nevertheless
grand and big enough to be worthy of respect. I don't see the Olympian gods
or Jesus coming down and dying on the Cross as worthy of that grandeur.
They strike me as parochial. If there is a God, it's going to be a whole
lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any
theologian of any religion has ever proposed.



[Jastrow] Just as I can't believe there was a creator, I can't believe
this all happened by chance which implies there was a creator. You see, I'm
at a completely hopeless bind and I stay there. Again, I find it hard to
believe that this is all a matter of atoms and molecules and so I try to fit
into my concept of the world the conclusion that there is a larger force of
some kind which we can call "god" or you can call it whatever. But I can't
accept that. I'm what's called a materialist in philosophy. It means that
I believe the world consists entirely of material substances . . . that's
what my science tells me.



What I do conclude from the discussion of bias is that if you wanted to
craft a theory of how people would act if the Biblical creationist theory
about man's rebellion against god were true, you would find no better
examples of the theory being true then Dawkins and others.


I guess this is the 3 stooges mechanism for trimming the pieces of the
puzzle to make the picture look however you want...this is the biggest
jumble of crap I've seen since Old Man Joe...you appear to be sincere but
nowhere do your filmy 'junctions' actually connect to substance. The notion
that morals came from a singular source irrespective to any single culture
or group of cultures still does nothing to prove supernatural influence of
any kind.
The evidence still shows that humans came from decreasing cultural
separation, not increasing...at some point long ago, our species was
definable by a very few individuals (evolving from it's most recently
successful predecessor) in a single culture-where all parties were closely
related in some way. The basis of moral codes and population ethics would
have naturally started there...
Where is your data on NDEs? How many cultures are included in this group?
And how does Jastrow's confusion about his bias mean anything?







------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

[i] http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-taylor1.html


.

User: ""

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it'snot true 23 Nov 2007 11:28:26 AM
On 23 nov, 15:33, "Jeff Stueber" <jstue...@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.

Is the basis for morality natural or supernatural? It is neither. The basis
for morality is conventional, which means the rules of morality were
fabricated by human beings over many generations. These rules are: to
abstain from injury, to abstain from lying, theft, assault, killing, and so
forth. These rules were not the invention of God. No one in this room
imagines that if there were not a God to tell us these things, we would not
know any better. [i]

Certainly this idea has strong appeal, but is horribly wrong when it comes
to how we ruminate on moral obligations and use them to create our laws.
Normally we discover, by .. What we are to do and then craft our laws to fit
those innate obligations. Take, for instance, the debate over abortion.
The pro-choice and pro-life do not agree among themselves what is correct
and then craft laws to reflect that. They instead grapple with their own
innate knowledge of the moral law and then attempt to craft laws that agree
with what is morally correct. Of course both sides disagree, but that is
more a reflection of our inability to properly understand the moral law and
the fact our moral intuition can sometimes be damaged by our own personal
biases (the desire for sexual activity devoid of consequences, for
instance). Humanist evolutionist arguments for the non-existence of
knowledge of the "moral law" proves faulty on every turn.

This evolutionist argument is so poor that humanists themselves cannot
remain consistent on this issue. Take, for instance, Paul Kurtz who
suggests out loud, in Forbidden Fruit, that it was immoral for Abraham to
kill Isaac and immoral for God to demand Abraham kill him. Clearly if Kurtz
had taken his own evolutionist advice, he would have suggested that the
immorality or morality of killing one's son would have depended on the
culture one was in at the time. Clearly we believe killing one's child is
immoral, but that is our culture and someone else may differ in beliefs from
us. Who are we to suppose, just because we think so, that others, even God,
are immoral for thinking different?

I surveyed the arguments for the existence or non-existence of the "soul"
next and suggested there are philosophical and medical evidences for such an
entities existence and near-death experiences confirm such an existence.
Then, later in discussing the reasonableness of believing in Jesus'
resurrection, I tie these evidences together.

" There is one last salient point I want to add to this debate which links
the sayings, life, and resurrection of Jesus with the tales of near-death
experiences previously cited. When Jesus communes with the father in an
occurrence often seen as a fulfillment of his promise that he could come in
power and majesty, he is seen as a being of light. Amazingly, this is
exactly how Jesus and other spiritual beings are seen in near-death
experiences; they are creatures that seemingly are made of nothing but
light. Jesus, in His resurrected body, is able to enter a room and leave
the room, disappearing almost magically, merely by desiring to do so.
Compare this with the experience of Thetus Tenney, and others whose
spiritual movement transcends spatial dimensions. There is no way for these
disciples to have known what information would come out of near-death
experiences. Yet, for all the primitiveness of the environment in which
these Jews lived, at least compared to modern ideas, they got the spiritual
nature of humans exactly right!"

I then relate this to the moral argument because people who have NDEs often
relate a "judgment" occurring of them either from some divine or semi-divine
being or themselves. This suggests a sort of moral law that is not merely
dependent on our culture's whims but one that transcends cultures - in
essence, an absolutist one.

I junction into an argument on the bias inherent in evolutionist philosophy
and quote from Richard Dawkins from a debate between him and Francis
Collins, and later quote from Robert Jastrow who expresses his naturalistic
sentiments in the video The Privileged Planet.

[Dawkins] What I am skeptical about is the idea that whatever wonderful
revelation does come in the science of the future, it will turn out to be
one of the particular historical religions that people happen to have
dreamed up. When we [he and Collins] started out and we were talking about
the origins of the universe and the physical constants, I provided what I
thought were cogent arguments against a supernatural intelligent designer.
But it does seem to me to be worthy idea. Refutable - but nevertheless
grand and big enough to be worthy of respect. I don't see the Olympian gods
or Jesus coming down and dying on the Cross as worthy of that grandeur.
They strike me as parochial. If there is a God, it's going to be a whole
lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any
theologian of any religion has ever proposed.

[Jastrow] Just as I can't believe there was a creator, I can't believe
this all happened by chance which implies there was a creator. You see, I'm
at a completely hopeless bind and I stay there. Again, I find it hard to
believe that this is all a matter of atoms and molecules and so I try to fit
into my concept of the world the conclusion that there is a larger force of
some kind which we can call "god" or you can call it whatever. But I can't
accept that. I'm what's called a materialist in philosophy. It means that
I believe the world consists entirely of material substances . . . that's
what my science tells me.

What I do conclude from the discussion of bias is that if you wanted to
craft a theory of how people would act if the Biblical creationist theory
about man's rebellion against god were true, you would find no better
examples of the theory being true then Dawkins and others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[i] http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-taylor1.html

This is really odd.
A funny thing happened while researchings gods commands. I found them
not to be god's commands. I found them to be my personal convictions
on morality. Personal convictions of morality are formed in early
childhood when parents teach children to do this or that not because
the parent "tells them so" but because such actions are "right"or
"wrong". The child soon discovers a pattern in what is "right" and
what is "wrong" and develops moral principles. Later in life these
principles are linked to the principles of others. Teachers, preachers
and philosophers, and depening on which principles fit the best the
already existing basic morality it the persons mind, such principles
are either embraced or rejected.
Personally I took a liking to the principles attributed to a person
from the gospel of Matthew who Matthew called "Jesus". However in took
another 20 years for me to discover that I did not like the principles
because they were Jesus's, but I liked Jesus because his principles
were so close to mine. Once I realized that, I had not need for any
divine law anymore, and was happy with the morality that has evolved
into modrer day secular humanism (which still resembles that of Jesus
very closely).
Morality is still evolving (as Dawkinns also notices in "the god
delusion").
and it is evolving in a constant way, towards less discriminations,
less chauvinism, more equality and more emphasis on the consiousness
of beings.
Peter van Velzen
November 2007
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
.
User: "us cw us"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 01:09:15 PM
<pbamvv@worldonline.nl> wrote in message news:78e9ecab-bdf8-4330-


A funny thing happened while researchings gods commands. I found them
not to be god's commands. I found them to be my personal convictions
on morality. Personal convictions of morality are formed in early
childhood when parents teach children

....or perhaps even when they don't...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7103804.stm
In other words, they get the beginnings of their morality from *their
evolution*, not from their parents!!!
M.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it'snot true 24 Nov 2007 05:30:50 AM
On 23 nov, 20:09, "=FEus cw=E6=F0" <=FEus cw=E6=F0@home.co.uk> wrote:

<pba...@worldonline.nl> wrote in message news:78e9ecab-bdf8-4330-

A funny thing happened while researchings gods commands. I found them
not to be god's commands. I found them to be my personal convictions
on morality. Personal convictions of morality are formed in early
childhood when parents teach children


...or perhaps even when they don't...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7=

103804.stm


In other words, they get the beginnings of their morality from *their
evolution*, not from their parents!!!

M.

I am pretty sure that - like all human abilities, the necessary basic
function is present in the brain, but has to be trained in order to
develop fully.
Hard-wired functions are usefull for immediate functions like
breething and sucking. But functions that need to be trained have the
advantage of being more versatile and therefor can be better adapted
to circumstances.
That - by the way - is the reason morality has improved so much (no
slavery, equal rights for women) in the last few hundred years. If it
had been all hard wired, we would still have senators, knights, free
men and slaves:-) and call that a just and noble society!
Peter van Velzen,
November 2007
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
.



User: "raven1"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 10:44:04 AM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism"

That's nice. May we assume that it's as incoherent and unfocused as
the rest of your post?
---
"Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to skyscrapers..."
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 05:46:37 PM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism"

Where is your evidence for gods, then Jeff?
Or are you blowing hot air out of your enormous backside again?
.

User: "Dubh Ghall"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 05:32:59 PM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public.

You really shouldn't have bothered, we would all have preferred to
wait, and not read the book, when it was published.
.

User: "John Baker"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 10:57:27 AM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public.

That's nice, Skippy. And you thought we'd give a ***** because.....?

Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.

Here's a free clue, dipshit. I as an atheist am under no obligation to
present *any* argument for my position, for the simple reason that you
have no evidence to support yours.
You're the one making the claims, Sunshine. I'm just saying I don't
believe you.
<remaining idiotic drivel snipped>
.

User: "satyr"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 12:59:06 PM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.





Is the basis for morality natural or supernatural? It is neither. The basis
for morality is conventional, which means the rules of morality were
fabricated by human beings over many generations. These rules are: to
abstain from injury, to abstain from lying, theft, assault, killing, and so
forth. These rules were not the invention of God. No one in this room
imagines that if there were not a God to tell us these things, we would not
know any better. [i]



Certainly this idea has strong appeal, but is horribly wrong when it comes
to how we ruminate on moral obligations and use them to create our laws.
Normally we discover, by .. What we are to do and then craft our laws to fit
those innate obligations. Take, for instance, the debate over abortion.
The pro-choice and pro-life do not agree among themselves what is correct
and then craft laws to reflect that. They instead grapple with their own
innate knowledge of the moral law and then attempt to craft laws that agree
with what is morally correct. Of course both sides disagree, but that is
more a reflection of our inability to properly understand the moral law and
the fact our moral intuition can sometimes be damaged by our own personal
biases (the desire for sexual activity devoid of consequences, for
instance). Humanist evolutionist arguments for the non-existence of
knowledge of the "moral law" proves faulty on every turn.

The problem is that you haven't proven that there is any such thing as
moral law to begin with. Then you compound the error by
misrepresenting the secular approach to ethics and the law. You claim
that secularists "grapple with their own innate knowledge of the moral
law and then attempt to craft laws that agree with what is morally
correct." While some may take that approach, more often secularists
look to the consequences of actions and proposed laws against them.
They also look to what extent the consequences are bourn by
nonconsenting others. If an action produces serious undesirable
consequences to nonconsenting others, it is a candidate to be banned
or restricted by law.

This evolutionist argument is so poor that humanists themselves cannot
remain consistent on this issue.

What evolutionist argument? The desire to have sex without
consequences is a valid desire regardless of evolution. In fact, if
we are to base laws on evolutionary consequences, we might be inclined
to ban abortion. Fortunately, we don't do that because evolution,
despite being a biological fact, is not a basis for laws and conduct.
If it were, we would ban vaccines and treatment of genetic diseases.

Take, for instance, Paul Kurtz who
suggests out loud, in Forbidden Fruit, that it was immoral for Abraham to
kill Isaac and immoral for God to demand Abraham kill him. Clearly if Kurtz
had taken his own evolutionist advice, he would have suggested that the
immorality or morality of killing one's son would have depended on the
culture one was in at the time.

Why would an evolutionist argument depend on culture? It seems like,
from an evolutionary standpoint, slowly reproducing species will
almost always find it disadvantageous to kill their offspring.

Clearly we believe killing one's child is
immoral, but that is our culture and someone else may differ in beliefs from
us.

Possibly, but that would tend to argue against any kind of universal
morality, god-given or otherwise. From an evolutionary standpoint, I
would say humans are pre-programmed against killing their offspring
and I think you would have a hard time finding a culture where such
behavior would be routinely tolerated, much less encouraged.

Who are we to suppose, just because we think so, that others, even God,
are immoral for thinking different?

Atheists do not believe god is immoral because he does not exist. We
can think any particular action is moral or immoral because our
thoughts are free. When it comes to laws, Abraham's only defense is
insanity which, given a heart-felt belief that god commanded him to
commit the crime could work. However, he will likely be committed for
treatment due to the danger he poses to his son.
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 08:42:24 AM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.

There's nothing to refute, moron.
In the real world your religion is one out of hundreds, and not
substantively different than them: they are all including yours only
taken seriously by their followers, who use inside-the-religion
criteria to "prove" it.
And all atheism is, is not believing in any of the gods of these
religions.
If you imagine yours is real then you have to prove it using real
world concepts, evidence and tools.
You can't refute reality using inside-the-religion doctrinal
presumptions that even you know are only granted inside it.
[question-begging stupidity about "evolutionists" etc deleted]
.

User: "Liz"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 06:35:44 PM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber"
<jstueber@charter.net> wrote:
[---]

I junction into an argument

That's the first time that I've ever seen junction used as a verb. I
normally have no problem verbing words. The reason it is worth a
mention is that it was the only slightly interesting item in your
tedious and turgid post.
Liz #658
I sometimes seek patterns in the chaos by watching "snow" on the screen
of an untuned television. But mostly it's just reruns. - whoiswho
.

User: "Ben Kaufman"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 09:52:34 AM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with ...

<SNIP>
You should have started with a basic understanding of college level biology.
Ben
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 05:47:52 PM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:52:34 -0500, Ben Kaufman
<spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-dollars@pobox.com> wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, "Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with ...

<SNIP>

You should have started with a basic understanding of college level biology.

He should not have started at all...
.


User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it'snot true 23 Nov 2007 09:03:55 AM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, Jeff Stueber wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism"

Well, you'll never get that time back...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“...The only really respectable Protestants are the
Fundamentalists. Unfortunately, they are also palpable idiots...”
- H. L. Mencken
.

User: "MarkA"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 24 Nov 2007 10:59:18 AM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, Jeff Stueber wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.





Is the basis for morality natural or supernatural? It is neither. The basis
for morality is conventional, which means the rules of morality were
fabricated by human beings over many generations. These rules are: to
abstain from injury, to abstain from lying, theft, assault, killing, and so
forth. These rules were not the invention of God. No one in this room
imagines that if there were not a God to tell us these things, we would not
know any better. [i]



Certainly this idea has strong appeal, but is horribly wrong when it comes
to how we ruminate on moral obligations and use them to create our laws.
Normally we discover, by .. What we are to do and then craft our laws to fit
those innate obligations. Take, for instance, the debate over abortion.
The pro-choice and pro-life do not agree among themselves what is correct
and then craft laws to reflect that. They instead grapple with their own
innate knowledge of the moral law and then attempt to craft laws that agree
with what is morally correct. Of course both sides disagree, but that is
more a reflection of our inability to properly understand the moral law and
the fact our moral intuition can sometimes be damaged by our own personal
biases (the desire for sexual activity devoid of consequences, for
instance). Humanist evolutionist arguments for the non-existence of
knowledge of the "moral law" proves faulty on every turn.

Abortion is a bad example. There is not a single, secular argument to
oppose a woman's right to abortion. All the anti-abortion arguments are
based on religious teachings, which have supplanted whatever "innate"
sense of morality one might have.

This evolutionist argument is so poor that humanists themselves
cannot
remain consistent on this issue. Take, for instance, Paul Kurtz who
suggests out loud, in Forbidden Fruit, that it was immoral for Abraham
to kill Isaac and immoral for God to demand Abraham kill him. Clearly
if Kurtz had taken his own evolutionist advice, he would have suggested
that the immorality or morality of killing one's son would have depended
on the culture one was in at the time. Clearly we believe killing one's
child is immoral, but that is our culture and someone else may differ in
beliefs from us. Who are we to suppose, just because we think so, that
others, even God, are immoral for thinking different?

It's pretty clear that Kurtz is presupposing that morality is a reflection
of the culture of which it is a part. It is odd that the Old Testament
specifically requires filicide and parricide for relatively trivial
offenses, while most people would consider it the paradigm of immorality.
What does it have to do with the theory of evolution?


I surveyed the arguments for the existence or non-existence of the
"soul"
next and suggested there are philosophical and medical evidences for
such an entities existence and near-death experiences confirm such an
existence. Then, later in discussing the reasonableness of believing in
Jesus' resurrection, I tie these evidences together.

Subjective experience, such as Near Death Experiences, is hardly
compelling evidence. If the rest of your thesis is a flawed as what you
have presented so far, do us all a favor and flush it down the toilet.
--
MarkA
(This space accidentally filled in)
.

User: "Free Lunch"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 02:47:41 PM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:33:32 -0600, in alt.atheism
"Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@charter.net> wrote in
<1xB1j.12$JP4.9@newsfe06.lga>:

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the
general public. Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is
normally know as the "moral argument." Richard Taylor, in a debate with
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the
knowledge of moral obligations.

....
There is not a shred of evidence that any gods had anything to do with
morality, therefore the only honest conclusion is that gods had nothing
to do with morality.
Claiming otherwise is special pleading and makes you look dishonest. I
would suppose that your moral code does not encourage you to be
dishonest. If it does, please get a new one.
--
"Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel
to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy
Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should
take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in
which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh
it to scorn." -- Augustine, The Literal Meaning of Genesis
.

User: "The Most Reverend Dr. Hugh Jarse NLAHN."

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it'snot true 23 Nov 2007 03:54:05 PM
On Nov 23, 2:33 pm, "Jeff Stueber" <jstue...@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript

And don't you wish you hadn't.
You do not, for a start, understand the difference between ethics and
morality.
.
User: "Dubh Ghall"

Title: Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true 23 Nov 2007 06:19:31 PM
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:54:05 -0800 (PST), "The Most Reverend Dr. Hugh
Jarse NLAHN." <hugh.jarse@heathens.org.uk> wrote:

On Nov 23, 2:33 pm, "Jeff Stueber" <jstue...@charter.net> wrote:

I recently finished a manuscript


And don't you wish you hadn't.

You do not, for a start, understand the difference between ethics and
morality.

For what it is worth, I don't think he understands the difference
between his arse and his elbow, either.
.



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