| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Vacendak" |
| Date: |
04 Sep 2004 03:53:01 PM |
| Object: |
A god who plays mind games |
That's how i see it.
You can't detect him with any of our 5 senses, and yet we still have to
believe in him. Because if we don't, we all get sent to hell to be tortured
for all eternity.A god who punishes people for making an honest mistake, by
reading the wrong sacred text or by calling him the wrong name.
"A god who puts out traps for people, invites them to sin, and allows them
to sin and commit crimes he could prevent. Only to finally get the barbarian
pleasure to punish them in an excessive way, of no use for himself, without
them changing their ways and without their example preventing others from
committing crimes." Baron d'Holbach (Systeme de la Nature, 1789)
Why should i believe in a god like this?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
09 Oct 2004 09:29:49 AM |
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:47:09 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:bJSdnTBzfeWF79ncRVn-rA@megapath.net...
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:48:32 -0400 in episode
<2qj2d8Fv2c56U1@uni-berlin.de> we saw our hero "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com>:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:77adnWTrKougJN7cRVn-vw@megapath.net...
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:10:15 -0400 in episode
<2qcd7iFul25rU1@uni-berlin.de> we saw our hero "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com>:
"keith" <keithj43@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba696799.0409091411.3e5f4d1@posting.google.com...
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:<2q9oanFt7k39U1@uni-berlin.de>...
"keith" <keithj43@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba696799.0409081458.63ed570d@posting.google.com...
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:<2q8fetFsor79U1@uni-berlin.de>...
"keith" <keithj43@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba696799.0409080522.4f6bf93a@posting.google.com...
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:<2q79sqFrs4t3U1@uni-berlin.de>...
"keith" <keithj43@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba696799.0409071728.502f222c@posting.google.com...snip
You made a lot of assertions;, but not much support. Are
you
planning
on supoprting them?
Oh, the irony.
There's nothing ironic about it. I have always *acknowledged*
when
I
made assertions and offered no support for them.
Why demand of others what you yourself refuse to provide?
Where did I *demand* anything?
Okay, maybe "demand" wasn't the appropriate word. How about
"request"?
See
your post below:
"You made a lot of assertions;, but not much support. Are you
planning on supoprting them?"
If you don't plan on supporting your assertions, why should you make
that
request of others?
I think request might be too strong a word as well. I asked if the guy
was planning to support his claim; if he's not then I expect I'll
remain unconvinced. I expect no different wrt the claims *I* don't
support.
Well, then color us all completely unconvinced of your claims.
<rummage>
I'll be damned. There *is a crayon in here for that...
SNARK! :)
Hold still! I'm not finished coloring you unconvinced!
Stop it now! That tickles! :)
Perky...... ;)
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
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| User: "Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
08 Sep 2004 09:16:21 AM |
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(keith) astounded us with:
news:ba696799.0409080522.4f6bf93a@posting.google.com:
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:<2q79sqFrs4t3U1@uni-berlin.de>...
"keith" < > wrote in message
news:ba696799.0409071728.502f222c@posting.google.com...snip
You made a lot of assertions;, but not much support. Are you planning
on supoprting them?
Oh, the irony.
There's nothing ironic about it. I have always *acknowledged* when I
made assertions and offered no support for them.
Keith
Oh, the irony.....
--
Phÿltêr
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://forums.clickhalah.com/index.php
Remove "s" to respond
.
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| User: "keith" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
08 Sep 2004 08:22:50 AM |
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"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message news:<2q79sqFrs4t3U1@uni-berlin.de>...
"keith" <keithj43@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba696799.0409071728.502f222c@posting.google.com...snip
You made a lot of assertions;, but not much support. Are you planning
on supoprting them?
Oh, the irony.
There's nothing ironic about it. I have always *acknowledged* when I
made assertions and offered no support for them.
Keith
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
09 Sep 2004 02:15:02 AM |
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On 7 Sep 2004 18:28:06 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<resrj0hap0rjv3jqtgj0ifscve9ft42b2h@4ax.com>...
On 6 Sep 2004 21:03:30 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<4l1pj01kh4q86dmlepd5ceeffq9ehimma1@4ax.com>...
On 5 Sep 2004 09:10:23 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<q5llj0d4012a77eo19feaouirgfift5o2i@4ax.com>...
On 05 Sep 2004 01:59:47 GMT, (Echo2Drs) wrote:
(snip)
YOur objection here is probably worth a discussion, but it is a little
off point right now. Whether or not the God that echo and I believe
actually exists, the strawman God that the original poster was
referring doesn't fit the description he gave it. Echo explains the
difference between the God we claim and the "God" the poster
dismissed.
The god Echo and you claim to believe in is full of contradictions...
we can discuss that in a differnet post; it;s not germain to the issue
at hand.
You are quite wrong.
No I'm not. Whether or not the God echo and I believe in is full of
contradictions, still the description that the atheist dude gave of
our God was a strawman.
It was accurate. It also contradicted other, accurate descriptions of
god according to Christian doctrine.
If you think I'm wrong about *that* then
please offer some kind of argument, please do more than merely assert
that I'm quite wrong.
I have, and so have many others.
and
is the one described as setting people up to be punished.
I owuld not agree with your assertion.
So what?
So, he made an assertion and offered nothing to support it, and I
don't agree with his assertion. That's all.
It was supported. You reject it out of hand.
(snip)
Set it up? YOu mean gave us freedom? Sure, God did that. But we are
the ones who chose to go wrong. It's childish to blame God when *we*
do wrong things.
It is irrational to believe in an omnipotent god and to insist that he
has no responsibility for what his creatures do. If your god exists
he set it all up.
I'd say: the claim that God (if he exists) has responsibility for what
his free creatures do obscures the issue.
No, it points out the contradictions and the illogic in the doctrine.
No it doesn't; it obscures the issue as I explained below.
Nonsense, the doctrine of free will contradicts the doctrine of
omnipotence. Merely denying that it does changes nothing.
It is logically impossible
for God to give us freedom wrt an action and yet force us to do the
thing he wants--if we are free it's up to us what we do. If our being
free wrt that action is better than our not being free, then God what
is responsible fo ris making things better than they would have been
It is logically impossible for man to have free will if an omnipotent
being exists.
No it isn't.
Either he is omnipotent or he is not. If we have free will, he is not
omnipotent. You offer childish assertions. I point out the quite
obvious contradiction.
(snip)
And all he *needs* to do to explain how the original poster created a
strawman. If he wanted to argue against the Christian God, he ought to
avoid strawman versions.
It was the Christian god that was described. The story of Adam and
Eve is a perfect example of a trap being set and sprung. It also
lacks consistency.
It was the story of human beings freely deciding to do wrong, even
when they were warned not to. God has no blame.
Of course he did. He created the snake. He created the trees. He
exposed the humans (who were totally innocent and incapable of
understanding what they were doing) to the trees and to the snake.
Where do you get they were incapable of knowing that they were
disobeying God (which was what they were doing?).
They were totally innocent until they sinned - yet another
contradiction.
He
knew exactly what was going to happen. There is nothing that could
possibly happen that would not be his responsibility.
You made a lot of assertions;, but not much support. Are you planning
on supoprting them?
How many times am I supposed to repeat the obvious. The doctrine says
he is both omniscient and omnipotent, therefore he is totally
responsible for everything. This has been said many times by many
people. You and others deny it, but that changes nothing. Free will
in man and and an omnipotent god are contradictory concepts. You do
not remove the contradiction by repeating "IS NOT! IS NOT".
.
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| User: "keith" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
09 Sep 2004 04:51:50 PM |
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thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<lsvvj05a0gv9arjap19gtekaoajhof8iu9@4ax.com>...
On 7 Sep 2004 18:28:06 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<resrj0hap0rjv3jqtgj0ifscve9ft42b2h@4ax.com>...
On 6 Sep 2004 21:03:30 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<4l1pj01kh4q86dmlepd5ceeffq9ehimma1@4ax.com>...
On 5 Sep 2004 09:10:23 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<q5llj0d4012a77eo19feaouirgfift5o2i@4ax.com>...
On 05 Sep 2004 01:59:47 GMT, (Echo2Drs) wrote:
(snip)
The god Echo and you claim to believe in is full of contradictions...
we can discuss that in a differnet post; it;s not germain to the issue
at hand.
You are quite wrong.
No I'm not. Whether or not the God echo and I believe in is full of
contradictions, still the description that the atheist dude gave of
our God was a strawman.
It was accurate. It also contradicted other, accurate descriptions of
god according to Christian doctrine.
On the contrary, it was not accurate at all. I've explained that
already. If you want to dispute my explanation, you'll have to show
specifically what is wrong with it.
If you think I'm wrong about *that* then
please offer some kind of argument, please do more than merely assert
that I'm quite wrong.
I have, and so have many others.
Since none of the arguments I have seen have been successful, I would
suggest you try again.
(snip)
I owuld not agree with your assertion.
So what?
So, he made an assertion and offered nothing to support it, and I
don't agree with his assertion. That's all.
It was supported. You reject it out of hand.
No it wasn't.
(snip)
Set it up? YOu mean gave us freedom? Sure, God did that. But we are
the ones who chose to go wrong. It's childish to blame God when *we*
do wrong things.
It is irrational to believe in an omnipotent god and to insist that he
has no responsibility for what his creatures do. If your god exists
he set it all up.
I'd say: the claim that God (if he exists) has responsibility for what
his free creatures do obscures the issue.
No, it points out the contradictions and the illogic in the doctrine.
No it doesn't; it obscures the issue as I explained below.
Nonsense, the doctrine of free will contradicts the doctrine of
omnipotence. Merely denying that it does changes nothing.
No it doesn't. Your merely *asserting* that it does changes nothing.
It is logically impossible
for God to give us freedom wrt an action and yet force us to do the
thing he wants--if we are free it's up to us what we do. If our being
free wrt that action is better than our not being free, then God what
is responsible fo ris making things better than they would have been
It is logically impossible for man to have free will if an omnipotent
being exists.
No it isn't.
Either he is omnipotent or he is not. If we have free will, he is not
omnipotent.
Can';t you see that your comment above is question begging? All you've
done is repeat your assertion that free will and divine omnipotence is
incompatible.
You offer childish assertions. I point out the quite
obvious contradiction.
Oh...your argument is that "it's obvious that free will is not
compatible with divine omnipotence". Well, it's not even true so it
can't be obviously true. That God has the power to do anything doesn't
preclude him from *allowing* other creatures to make decisions about
how things go.
(snip)
And all he *needs* to do to explain how the original poster created a
strawman. If he wanted to argue against the Christian God, he ought to
avoid strawman versions.
It was the Christian god that was described. The story of Adam and
Eve is a perfect example of a trap being set and sprung. It also
lacks consistency.
It was the story of human beings freely deciding to do wrong, even
when they were warned not to. God has no blame.
Of course he did. He created the snake. He created the trees. He
exposed the humans (who were totally innocent and incapable of
understanding what they were doing) to the trees and to the snake.
Where do you get they were incapable of knowing that they were
disobeying God (which was what they were doing?).
They were totally innocent until they sinned - yet another
contradiction.
They were innocent because they hadn't yet sinned. Where is the
contradiction?
He
knew exactly what was going to happen. There is nothing that could
possibly happen that would not be his responsibility.
You made a lot of assertions;, but not much support. Are you planning
on supoprting them?
How many times am I supposed to repeat the obvious.
Your calling it obvious doesn't make it obvious. If all you are going
to do is keep calling it obvious, there's probably not much point in
the exchange.
The doctrine says
he is both omniscient and omnipotent, therefore he is totally
responsible for everything.
Again, your spin obscures things. God is responsible (by giving us
freedom) for making things better than they would have been had he not
given us freedom. But given our freedom, it's up to us to do good or
bad with it. We make things worse than they'd be if we only did good.
but still things are better than they'd be if God had not made us
free.
This has been said many times by many
people. You and others deny it, but that changes nothing. Free will
in man and and an omnipotent god are contradictory concepts. You do
not remove the contradiction by repeating "IS NOT! IS NOT".
Ironically, it;s you who are the one trying to change reality by
repeating its contrary. All you've done is rephrase the assertion over
and over. I offered an explanation (above) about the whole
"responsibility" thing. You have no answer for it.
Keith
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
11 Sep 2004 02:26:15 AM |
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On 9 Sep 2004 14:51:50 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<lsvvj05a0gv9arjap19gtekaoajhof8iu9@4ax.com>...
On 7 Sep 2004 18:28:06 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<resrj0hap0rjv3jqtgj0ifscve9ft42b2h@4ax.com>...
On 6 Sep 2004 21:03:30 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<4l1pj01kh4q86dmlepd5ceeffq9ehimma1@4ax.com>...
On 5 Sep 2004 09:10:23 -0700, (keith) wrote:
thomas p <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message news:<q5llj0d4012a77eo19feaouirgfift5o2i@4ax.com>...
On 05 Sep 2004 01:59:47 GMT, (Echo2Drs) wrote:
(snip)
The god Echo and you claim to believe in is full of contradictions...
we can discuss that in a differnet post; it;s not germain to the issue
at hand.
You are quite wrong.
No I'm not. Whether or not the God echo and I believe in is full of
contradictions, still the description that the atheist dude gave of
our God was a strawman.
It was accurate. It also contradicted other, accurate descriptions of
god according to Christian doctrine.
On the contrary, it was not accurate at all. I've explained that
already. If you want to dispute my explanation, you'll have to show
specifically what is wrong with it.
If you think I'm wrong about *that* then
please offer some kind of argument, please do more than merely assert
that I'm quite wrong.
I have, and so have many others.
Since none of the arguments I have seen have been successful, I would
suggest you try again.
Go right ahead.
(snip)
I owuld not agree with your assertion.
So what?
So, he made an assertion and offered nothing to support it, and I
don't agree with his assertion. That's all.
It was supported. You reject it out of hand.
No it wasn't.
And you do it again.
(snip)
Set it up? YOu mean gave us freedom? Sure, God did that. But we are
the ones who chose to go wrong. It's childish to blame God when *we*
do wrong things.
It is irrational to believe in an omnipotent god and to insist that he
has no responsibility for what his creatures do. If your god exists
he set it all up.
I'd say: the claim that God (if he exists) has responsibility for what
his free creatures do obscures the issue.
No, it points out the contradictions and the illogic in the doctrine.
No it doesn't; it obscures the issue as I explained below.
Nonsense, the doctrine of free will contradicts the doctrine of
omnipotence. Merely denying that it does changes nothing.
No it doesn't. Your merely *asserting* that it does changes nothing.
Chuckle! I also assert that one cannot make square circles. In short
I am asserting that there is something called logic.
It is logically impossible
for God to give us freedom wrt an action and yet force us to do the
thing he wants--if we are free it's up to us what we do. If our being
free wrt that action is better than our not being free, then God what
is responsible fo ris making things better than they would have been
It is logically impossible for man to have free will if an omnipotent
being exists.
No it isn't.
Either he is omnipotent or he is not. If we have free will, he is not
omnipotent.
Can';t you see that your comment above is question begging? All you've
done is repeat your assertion that free will and divine omnipotence is
incompatible.
You are truly amazing Keith. Apparently you actually think you are
making sense.
You offer childish assertions. I point out the quite
obvious contradiction.
Oh...your argument is that "it's obvious that free will is not
compatible with divine omnipotence". Well, it's not even true so it
can't be obviously true. That God has the power to do anything doesn't
preclude him from *allowing* other creatures to make decisions about
how things go.
You did not accurately describe omnipotence. What a surprise!
(snip)
And all he *needs* to do to explain how the original poster created a
strawman. If he wanted to argue against the Christian God, he ought to
avoid strawman versions.
It was the Christian god that was described. The story of Adam and
Eve is a perfect example of a trap being set and sprung. It also
lacks consistency.
It was the story of human beings freely deciding to do wrong, even
when they were warned not to. God has no blame.
Of course he did. He created the snake. He created the trees. He
exposed the humans (who were totally innocent and incapable of
understanding what they were doing) to the trees and to the snake.
Where do you get they were incapable of knowing that they were
disobeying God (which was what they were doing?).
They were totally innocent until they sinned - yet another
contradiction.
They were innocent because they hadn't yet sinned. Where is the
contradiction?
And Jesus wept! If they knew what sin was and were capable of
desiring it, they were not innocent. Yes; I know; I just made an
assertion.
snip
.
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
04 Sep 2004 07:05:11 PM |
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On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 20:53:01 GMT, "Vacendak"
<nerve_staple@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's how i see it.
You can't detect him with any of our 5 senses, and yet we still have to
believe in him. Because if we don't, we all get sent to hell to be tortured
for all eternity.A god who punishes people for making an honest mistake, by
reading the wrong sacred text or by calling him the wrong name.
"A god who puts out traps for people, invites them to sin, and allows them
to sin and commit crimes he could prevent. Only to finally get the barbarian
pleasure to punish them in an excessive way, of no use for himself, without
them changing their ways and without their example preventing others from
committing crimes." Baron d'Holbach (Systeme de la Nature, 1789)
Why should i believe in a god like this?
(shrug)
You have what I have. A completely detached awe of how people can't
figure out the logic of it.
Everything you've said is true. The inescapable logic of deductive
reasoning, but when you slap some stupid christian in the face with
it, he shrieks, 'I was warned about you! Wise men are stupid, sheep
are smart! You're using Satan's words!'
Ignorant superstition faced with logic is a self healing wound.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: AQOTM - Wise men are stupid, sheep are smart? |
08 Sep 2004 11:09:54 AM |
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I nominate Steve's response below. It just kind of sings.
Steve Knight <whooly@sonic.net> wrote in message news:<rllkj0li1qnfhuaol02r399c5em5jqtrd2@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 20:53:01 GMT, "Vacendak"
<nerve_staple@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's how i see it.
You can't detect him with any of our 5 senses, and yet we still have to
believe in him. Because if we don't, we all get sent to hell to be tortured
for all eternity.A god who punishes people for making an honest mistake, by
reading the wrong sacred text or by calling him the wrong name.
"A god who puts out traps for people, invites them to sin, and allows them
to sin and commit crimes he could prevent. Only to finally get the barbarian
pleasure to punish them in an excessive way, of no use for himself, without
them changing their ways and without their example preventing others from
committing crimes." Baron d'Holbach (Systeme de la Nature, 1789)
Why should i believe in a god like this?
(shrug)
You have what I have. A completely detached awe of how people can't
figure out the logic of it.
Everything you've said is true. The inescapable logic of deductive
reasoning, but when you slap some stupid christian in the face with
it, he shrieks, 'I was warned about you! Wise men are stupid, sheep
are smart! You're using Satan's words!'
Warlord Steve
jwk
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: A god who plays mind games |
04 Sep 2004 06:26:50 PM |
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On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 20:53:01 GMT, "Vacendak" <nerve_staple@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's how i see it.
You can't detect him with any of our 5 senses, and yet we still have to
believe in him. Because if we don't, we all get sent to hell to be tortured
for all eternity.A god who punishes people for making an honest mistake, by
reading the wrong sacred text or by calling him the wrong name.
"A god who puts out traps for people, invites them to sin, and allows them
to sin and commit crimes he could prevent. Only to finally get the barbarian
pleasure to punish them in an excessive way, of no use for himself, without
them changing their ways and without their example preventing others from
committing crimes." Baron d'Holbach (Systeme de la Nature, 1789)
Why should i believe in a god like this?
Because his behavior so closely mirrors that of a badly raised tribal chieftain
lord of the Bronze Age with no constraints of manners, ethics, or morals.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
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