A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: ""
Date: 09 May 2006 07:46:44 PM
Object: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/03/1636072.htm
(Chicago Tribune (KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) PRAGUE, Czech
Republic _ The Czech capital is cluttered with churches. From humble
parish chapels to the Gothic grandeur of St. Vitus Cathedral, the
wonderment of Christian faith seems to ooze out of the city's every
pore.
But the churches are mostly empty, and the only wonder to most Czechs
is why anyone at all bothers to go.
Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people. According to a
European Union survey published last year, only 19 percent of Czechs
said they believed in God; most of the rest proclaim themselves
atheists. Only the former Soviet republic of Estonia had a lower
percentage of believers.
Jan Kittrich, a 30-year-old Prague lawyer, is typical. He described
himself as an atheist but quickly added that he had nothing against
churches.
"I love to visit them," he said. "But I see them as historical objects,
not as religious places."
The Czechs are not alone. From Ireland to Italy, church attendance
across Europe is down drastically, and apart from Western Europe's
rapidly growing Muslim communities and the staunch piety of Poles in
the east, religion as a moral force in public life continues to wane.
By all accounts, British Prime Minister Tony Blair is a devout
Christian. But when Blair recently told a TV interviewer that his
religious faith informed his world view, he was lampooned and lambasted
from the left and right. The message for British politicians was clear:
If you happen to have a religious urge, keep it in the closet.
Mark Lilla, a professor of social thought at the University of Chicago,
has described present-day Europe as "the closest thing to a godless
civilization the world has ever known."
Europeans and Americans share a common civilization and many common
values. But in matters of faith and religion, Europe and the United
States appear to be headed in opposite directions.
Especially since the 2004 U.S. elections, Europeans have expressed
surprise and alarm at the increasing intensity of American religiosity.
Jacques Delors, former president of the European Commission, has spoken
of a widening "values gap" between Europe and the United States that
could strain future relations.
But religion has long played an important role in American civic life.
God's name is invoked in the Declaration of Independence and on U.S.
currency. More recently, "God Bless America" has become the standard
sign-off of politicians across the political spectrum.
President Bush is hardly the first president to proclaim America to be
God's instrument on Earth. John Kennedy, in his 1961 inaugural address,
declared with certainty that "here on Earth, God's work must truly be
our own."
Europeans are more diffident about God, and the Czechs more so than
most Europeans.
Lori Gregory grew up in Philadelphia and is a Christian missionary in
the Czech Republic. She and her husband, Bill, an ordained Southern
Baptist minister, came to Prague 13 years ago to work for Young Life, a
Colorado-based organization that focuses on teenagers. It has not been
an easy path.
"When we bring up the subject (of faith), it's like asking if you
believe in UFOs. That's what we're up against here," Gregory said. "In
the States, you can assume most kids know why Christmas is celebrated.
In the Czech Republic kids think Baby Jesus is like Cinderella or
Shrek. ... They think it's all a fairy tale."
Given four decades of communist rule, perhaps that is not surprising.
Kittrich, the lawyer, grew up in a small town in Moravia. He had one
grandmother who told him stories from the Bible, and another, a police
colonel, whose home was filled with statues of Lenin and Stalin. "That
was her religion," he said.
His mother, he said, was a member of the "hippie generation" that
rejected all religions and ideologies. Kittrich's first encounter with
a church group came while he was a teenage exchange student in Elkin,
N.C. He began attending services at the local Methodist church.
"Three times a week there were church activities _ suppers for homeless
people, youth groups. I joined the soccer team. The people were really
nice and it opened my eyes," he said.
"But it always seemed more of a social community than a religious
community, so when I got back here, I didn't follow up."
Kittrich acknowledges he often thinks about religion. "But I don't
think I'm missing anything," he said with a shrug.
Tomas Halik, a Roman Catholic priest and professor of philosophy at
Prague's Charles University, is not surprised at this spiritual
indifference. He believes Czechoslovakia's communist rulers and their
masters in Moscow deliberately targeted the country for "an experiment
in the total atheization of society."
The crackdown on the church and clergy was much harsher than in
neighboring Poland, Hungary or even the Soviet Union, and the decades
of repression did serious harm to the Czech religious identity, Halik
said.
"Czech society is not really atheistic _ it's worse. Czechs today
hardly know anything about religion," he said.
(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)
Halik, who likes to joke that he "converted from agnosticism," was
secretly ordained in East Germany in 1978.
During the communist era, he became well known as a spokesman for the
Charter 77 group, which later would play a key role in the 1989 Velvet
Revolution that ended communism. Throughout those years, he kept his
ordination a secret from everyone, including his mother.
These days he leads a small but robust congregation in Prague made up
mostly of university students. He has baptized about 800 adults over
the last dozen or so years.
"After 1989, there was a great expectation that the church would be an
important force for the renewal of the nation," Halik said.
When Pope John Paul II visited Czechoslovakia in 1990, huge crowds
turned out to greet him. But when he returned for a third, and final,
visit in 1997, the crowds were embarrassingly thin. (Among Czechs who
claim some religious affiliation, 83 percent are Catholic, 10 percent
are Protestant and 6.4 percent are Orthodox, according to EU figures.)
Halik said the Czech Catholic Church wasted a golden opportunity in the
early 1990s, mainly because it had no experience in public life and
most of its priests "only knew how to operate in the old communist
style _ the liturgy and nothing more."
Dusan Trestik, a historian at the Center for Medieval Studies in
Prague, agreed. "I think you have to say the church failed in the needs
of modernization," he said. "The church was offering traditional
Christianity for grannies. You had 18- to 20-year-olds, and the church
didn't know how to speak to them."
But Trestik noted that the Czechs' standoffishness toward religion
predates the communists by centuries. Christianity arrived in the Czech
lands in 865, but its defining moment came in the early 1400s when Jan
Hus, rector at the University of Prague, challenged the authority and
teachings of Rome. For this, he was burned at the stake.
"In all aspects, it was a Protestant Reformation a century before
Protestantism," Trestik said. "But the Hussite revolution ended like
all revolutions_badly. The Hussites mutually defeated each other."
The Czech lands fell under the control of the German-speaking
Habsburgs. Catholic authority was restored, but Czechs henceforth
regarded the church as something imposed from the outside.
(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)
When ordinary Czechs identify themselves as atheist, they usually don't
mean it in the strict sense. When pressed, most Czechs acknowledge they
believe in "something."
"Even rational people need to believe in something, something bigger
than themselves to make sense of their lives," said Dana Hamplova, a
Prague sociologist whose research has found that while Czechs mistrust
organized religion, they rank very high among Europeans who believe in
the power of fortunetellers, amulets and other non-traditional forms of
spirituality.
"They are looking for something, for guidance, and in the pure sense,
it's religious," she said.
Pavel Rican, a religion professor at Charles University, refers to this
as "somethingism" and describes it as a "degenerated religiosity" that
has become the norm in much of Europe.
"Superstitions, cults, interest in herbs _ there are so many people now
to whom salvation means good health," he said.
What caused the demise of traditional religion among Czechs and other
Europeans? Is it the fault of the church, or did the faithful change in
some fundamental way?
"I go to church infrequently. It's boring. It gives me nothing," Rican
said. "The songs are 400 years old, and what is said there, it doesn't
address what people need, and I'm afraid the churches don't even try.
"Yes, it's a failure of the churches. But this is something that is
characteristic for the whole of Europe," he said. "I saw statistics for
Spain (which in 1975 emerged from 36 years of "Catholic nationalism"
under the dictator Gen. Francisco Franco) and they seem to be going in
the same direction as us."
Grace Davie, a British expert on the sociology of religion, says the
church already has "lost its role as the keystone in the arch of
European culture."
George Weigel, a leading American Catholic intellectual, goes further,
arguing that Europe is becoming a "post-Christian society" with a
ruling elite that is openly hostile to religion.
"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans
see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays
and the latter don't," Weigel wrote in his 2005 book, "The Cube and the
Cathedral: Europe, America and Politics Without God."
"But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic
differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and
Europe don't have something important to do with those different
perceptions of the world _ and the different policies to which those
perceptions eventually lead," he wrote.
(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)
Pope John Paul II believed Europe's poverty of spirit was linked to its
postwar affluence, or, in the specific case of Eastern Europe, to its
post-communist embrace of American-style consumerism. That may be a
harsh judgment _ if anything, the American experience seems to suggest
that spirituality and consumerism need not be mutually exclusive.
Europeans, including many who are religiously inclined, tend to be
openly disdainful of this American-style religiosity.
"This kind of do-it-yourself Christianity _ people like Billy Graham
and Jesse Jackson and all the TV preachers _ would be impossible in
Europe," said historian Trestik. "Christianity like some kind of
supermarket is completely impossible in Europe."
But European religious leaders are at a loss for ways to stanch the
loss of faith among their flocks. While some are trying to make the
institutional church more accessible and user-friendly, the Catholic
Church, by far the continent's largest denomination, seems to be
consoling itself with a "less is more" approach, arguing that the
numbers in the pews matter less than the depth and quality of faith of
those who do believe.
"We know we can't go back to the Catholic Europe of the Middle Ages, so
we will have to find some compatibility between Christianity and
secular humanism," said Halik, the secretly ordained priest.
But can Christianity and secular humanism ever be compatible?
"Faith and doubt are like two sisters," Halik said with a mysterious
smile. "They need each other."
.

User: "bam"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 09 May 2006 11:26:29 PM
<soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...



http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/03/1636072.htm





(Chicago Tribune (KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) PRAGUE, Czech
Republic _ The Czech capital is cluttered with churches. From humble
parish chapels to the Gothic grandeur of St. Vitus Cathedral, the
wonderment of Christian faith seems to ooze out of the city's every
pore.

But the churches are mostly empty, and the only wonder to most Czechs
is why anyone at all bothers to go.

Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people.

Why shouldn't they be? Protestantism is the slippery slop to atheism and
Czechoslovakia is the birthplace of Protestantism, started by Jan Huss at
the turn of the 15th century.
BAM
.

User: "H Dickmann"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 10 May 2006 01:01:43 AM
<soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...



http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/03/1636072.htm





(Chicago Tribune (KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) PRAGUE, Czech
Republic _ The Czech capital is cluttered with churches. From humble
parish chapels to the Gothic grandeur of St. Vitus Cathedral, the
wonderment of Christian faith seems to ooze out of the city's every
pore.

But the churches are mostly empty, and the only wonder to most Czechs
is why anyone at all bothers to go.

Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people. According to a
European Union survey published last year, only 19 percent of Czechs
said they believed in God; most of the rest proclaim themselves
atheists. Only the former Soviet republic of Estonia had a lower
percentage of believers.

Snip
The Americans had the ingenuity to make Capitalism into a Christian
religion.
Greed is good and is Christian in America. A more left wing inclined Europe
has so far rejected this idea, but the devil is working on it.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 09 May 2006 10:17:31 PM
wrote:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/03/1636072.htm

snip

Jan Kittrich, a 30-year-old Prague lawyer, is typical. He described
himself as an atheist but quickly added that he had nothing against
churches.

"I love to visit them," he said. "But I see them as historical objects,
not as religious places."

The Czechs are not alone. From Ireland to Italy, church attendance
across Europe is down drastically, and apart from Western Europe's
rapidly growing Muslim communities and the staunch piety of Poles in
the east, religion as a moral force in public life continues to wane.

The good guys are winning in Europe. Kills ya, doesn't it Sound?
Modern, educated people have no time for your pathetic superstition,
and you can't stand it.
I'm laughing at you. At all of you. An entire continent is proving that
your silly folk tales are not required for happiness or morality. And
passing the proof along to their children:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-2169809,00.html
Chew on *that* for awhile, you drooling idiot xian. <g>
-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
.
User: ""

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 10 May 2006 08:43:10 PM
wrote:

soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com wrote:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/03/1636072.htm


snip

Jan Kittrich, a 30-year-old Prague lawyer, is typical. He described
himself as an atheist but quickly added that he had nothing against
churches.

"I love to visit them," he said. "But I see them as historical objects,
not as religious places."

The Czechs are not alone. From Ireland to Italy, church attendance
across Europe is down drastically, and apart from Western Europe's
rapidly growing Muslim communities and the staunch piety of Poles in
the east, religion as a moral force in public life continues to wane.


The good guys are winning in Europe. Kills ya, doesn't it Sound?
Modern, educated people have no time for your pathetic superstition,
and you can't stand it.

Yay, Christianity is on the way out and Islam is on the way in.
Exciting!


I'm laughing at you. At all of you. An entire continent is proving that
your silly folk tales are not required for happiness or morality. And
passing the proof along to their children:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-2169809,00.html

Chew on *that* for awhile, you drooling idiot xian. <g>

-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain

Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

.
User: ""

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 10 May 2006 11:57:53 PM
wrote:

panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:

soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com wrote:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/03/1636072.htm


snip

Jan Kittrich, a 30-year-old Prague lawyer, is typical. He described
himself as an atheist but quickly added that he had nothing against
churches.

"I love to visit them," he said. "But I see them as historical objects,
not as religious places."

The Czechs are not alone. From Ireland to Italy, church attendance
across Europe is down drastically, and apart from Western Europe's
rapidly growing Muslim communities and the staunch piety of Poles in
the east, religion as a moral force in public life continues to wane.


The good guys are winning in Europe. Kills ya, doesn't it Sound?
Modern, educated people have no time for your pathetic superstition,
and you can't stand it.


Yay, Christianity is on the way out and Islam is on the way in.
Exciting!

You don't think Europe will change its mind about immigration reform?
The editorials in the European press seem to be screaming for it.
-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
.



User: ""

Title: Fundamentalism: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground 09 May 2006 11:53:56 PM
Actually, I have read that religion is in decline in the United
States as well as in Europe, when measured by participation
in religious practice, active membership in organizations,
church attendance, and so forth. What has brought
religion to everyone's attention is the increasing fanatical
politicization of fundamentalist religious sects. The
political structure of the United States is such that a
single-minded, energetic minority can wield a lot of
influence if the majority is divided or apathetic. But
in time, conditions change, and in the future we may
see the fundamentalists, driven from power, retreating
back into the woodwork from whence they came.
Considering the affections manifested by Sound
of Trumpet and presumably his co-religionists for
sexism, racism, fascism and Naziism, that may be
a very good thing.
The hollow sound they hear may be their own.
soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com wrote:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/03/1636072.htm

(Chicago Tribune (KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) PRAGUE, Czech
Republic _ The Czech capital is cluttered with churches. From humble
parish chapels to the Gothic grandeur of St. Vitus Cathedral, the
wonderment of Christian faith seems to ooze out of the city's every
pore.

But the churches are mostly empty, and the only wonder to most Czechs
is why anyone at all bothers to go.

Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people. According to a
European Union survey published last year, only 19 percent of Czechs
said they believed in God; most of the rest proclaim themselves
atheists. Only the former Soviet republic of Estonia had a lower
percentage of believers.

Jan Kittrich, a 30-year-old Prague lawyer, is typical. He described
himself as an atheist but quickly added that he had nothing against
churches.

"I love to visit them," he said. "But I see them as historical objects,
not as religious places."

The Czechs are not alone. From Ireland to Italy, church attendance
across Europe is down drastically, and apart from Western Europe's
rapidly growing Muslim communities and the staunch piety of Poles in
the east, religion as a moral force in public life continues to wane.

By all accounts, British Prime Minister Tony Blair is a devout
Christian. But when Blair recently told a TV interviewer that his
religious faith informed his world view, he was lampooned and lambasted
from the left and right. The message for British politicians was clear:
If you happen to have a religious urge, keep it in the closet.

Mark Lilla, a professor of social thought at the University of Chicago,
has described present-day Europe as "the closest thing to a godless
civilization the world has ever known."

Europeans and Americans share a common civilization and many common
values. But in matters of faith and religion, Europe and the United
States appear to be headed in opposite directions.

Especially since the 2004 U.S. elections, Europeans have expressed
surprise and alarm at the increasing intensity of American religiosity.
Jacques Delors, former president of the European Commission, has spoken
of a widening "values gap" between Europe and the United States that
could strain future relations.

But religion has long played an important role in American civic life.
God's name is invoked in the Declaration of Independence and on U.S.
currency. More recently, "God Bless America" has become the standard
sign-off of politicians across the political spectrum.

President Bush is hardly the first president to proclaim America to be
God's instrument on Earth. John Kennedy, in his 1961 inaugural address,
declared with certainty that "here on Earth, God's work must truly be
our own."

Europeans are more diffident about God, and the Czechs more so than
most Europeans.

Lori Gregory grew up in Philadelphia and is a Christian missionary in
the Czech Republic. She and her husband, Bill, an ordained Southern
Baptist minister, came to Prague 13 years ago to work for Young Life, a
Colorado-based organization that focuses on teenagers. It has not been
an easy path.

"When we bring up the subject (of faith), it's like asking if you
believe in UFOs. That's what we're up against here," Gregory said. "In
the States, you can assume most kids know why Christmas is celebrated.
In the Czech Republic kids think Baby Jesus is like Cinderella or
Shrek. ... They think it's all a fairy tale."

Given four decades of communist rule, perhaps that is not surprising.
Kittrich, the lawyer, grew up in a small town in Moravia. He had one
grandmother who told him stories from the Bible, and another, a police
colonel, whose home was filled with statues of Lenin and Stalin. "That
was her religion," he said.

His mother, he said, was a member of the "hippie generation" that
rejected all religions and ideologies. Kittrich's first encounter with
a church group came while he was a teenage exchange student in Elkin,
N.C. He began attending services at the local Methodist church.

"Three times a week there were church activities _ suppers for homeless
people, youth groups. I joined the soccer team. The people were really
nice and it opened my eyes," he said.

"But it always seemed more of a social community than a religious
community, so when I got back here, I didn't follow up."

Kittrich acknowledges he often thinks about religion. "But I don't
think I'm missing anything," he said with a shrug.

Tomas Halik, a Roman Catholic priest and professor of philosophy at
Prague's Charles University, is not surprised at this spiritual
indifference. He believes Czechoslovakia's communist rulers and their
masters in Moscow deliberately targeted the country for "an experiment
in the total atheization of society."

The crackdown on the church and clergy was much harsher than in
neighboring Poland, Hungary or even the Soviet Union, and the decades
of repression did serious harm to the Czech religious identity, Halik
said.

"Czech society is not really atheistic _ it's worse. Czechs today
hardly know anything about religion," he said.

(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)

Halik, who likes to joke that he "converted from agnosticism," was
secretly ordained in East Germany in 1978.

During the communist era, he became well known as a spokesman for the
Charter 77 group, which later would play a key role in the 1989 Velvet
Revolution that ended communism. Throughout those years, he kept his
ordination a secret from everyone, including his mother.

These days he leads a small but robust congregation in Prague made up
mostly of university students. He has baptized about 800 adults over
the last dozen or so years.

"After 1989, there was a great expectation that the church would be an
important force for the renewal of the nation," Halik said.

When Pope John Paul II visited Czechoslovakia in 1990, huge crowds
turned out to greet him. But when he returned for a third, and final,
visit in 1997, the crowds were embarrassingly thin. (Among Czechs who
claim some religious affiliation, 83 percent are Catholic, 10 percent
are Protestant and 6.4 percent are Orthodox, according to EU figures.)

Halik said the Czech Catholic Church wasted a golden opportunity in the
early 1990s, mainly because it had no experience in public life and
most of its priests "only knew how to operate in the old communist
style _ the liturgy and nothing more."

Dusan Trestik, a historian at the Center for Medieval Studies in
Prague, agreed. "I think you have to say the church failed in the needs
of modernization," he said. "The church was offering traditional
Christianity for grannies. You had 18- to 20-year-olds, and the church
didn't know how to speak to them."

But Trestik noted that the Czechs' standoffishness toward religion
predates the communists by centuries. Christianity arrived in the Czech
lands in 865, but its defining moment came in the early 1400s when Jan
Hus, rector at the University of Prague, challenged the authority and
teachings of Rome. For this, he was burned at the stake.

"In all aspects, it was a Protestant Reformation a century before
Protestantism," Trestik said. "But the Hussite revolution ended like
all revolutions_badly. The Hussites mutually defeated each other."

The Czech lands fell under the control of the German-speaking
Habsburgs. Catholic authority was restored, but Czechs henceforth
regarded the church as something imposed from the outside.

(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)

When ordinary Czechs identify themselves as atheist, they usually don't
mean it in the strict sense. When pressed, most Czechs acknowledge they
believe in "something."

"Even rational people need to believe in something, something bigger
than themselves to make sense of their lives," said Dana Hamplova, a
Prague sociologist whose research has found that while Czechs mistrust
organized religion, they rank very high among Europeans who believe in
the power of fortunetellers, amulets and other non-traditional forms of
spirituality.

"They are looking for something, for guidance, and in the pure sense,
it's religious," she said.

Pavel Rican, a religion professor at Charles University, refers to this
as "somethingism" and describes it as a "degenerated religiosity" that
has become the norm in much of Europe.

"Superstitions, cults, interest in herbs _ there are so many people now
to whom salvation means good health," he said.

What caused the demise of traditional religion among Czechs and other
Europeans? Is it the fault of the church, or did the faithful change in
some fundamental way?

"I go to church infrequently. It's boring. It gives me nothing," Rican
said. "The songs are 400 years old, and what is said there, it doesn't
address what people need, and I'm afraid the churches don't even try.

"Yes, it's a failure of the churches. But this is something that is
characteristic for the whole of Europe," he said. "I saw statistics for
Spain (which in 1975 emerged from 36 years of "Catholic nationalism"
under the dictator Gen. Francisco Franco) and they seem to be going in
the same direction as us."

Grace Davie, a British expert on the sociology of religion, says the
church already has "lost its role as the keystone in the arch of
European culture."

George Weigel, a leading American Catholic intellectual, goes further,
arguing that Europe is becoming a "post-Christian society" with a
ruling elite that is openly hostile to religion.

"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans
see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays
and the latter don't," Weigel wrote in his 2005 book, "The Cube and the
Cathedral: Europe, America and Politics Without God."

"But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic
differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and
Europe don't have something important to do with those different
perceptions of the world _ and the different policies to which those
perceptions eventually lead," he wrote.

(EDITORS: STORY CAN END HERE)

Pope John Paul II believed Europe's poverty of spirit was linked to its
postwar affluence, or, in the specific case of Eastern Europe, to its
post-communist embrace of American-style consumerism. That may be a
harsh judgment _ if anything, the American experience seems to suggest
that spirituality and consumerism need not be mutually exclusive.

Europeans, including many who are religiously inclined, tend to be
openly disdainful of this American-style religiosity.

"This kind of do-it-yourself Christianity _ people like Billy Graham
and Jesse Jackson and all the TV preachers _ would be impossible in
Europe," said historian Trestik. "Christianity like some kind of
supermarket is completely impossible in Europe."

But European religious leaders are at a loss for ways to stanch the
loss of faith among their flocks. While some are trying to make the
institutional church more accessible and user-friendly, the Catholic
Church, by far the continent's largest denomination, seems to be
consoling itself with a "less is more" approach, arguing that the
numbers in the pews matter less than the depth and quality of faith of
those who do believe.

"We know we can't go back to the Catholic Europe of the Middle Ages, so
we will have to find some compatibility between Christianity and
secular humanism," said Halik, the secretly ordained priest.

But can Christianity and secular humanism ever be compatible?

"Faith and doubt are like two sisters," Halik said with a mysterious
smile. "They need each other."

.
User: "Jeff White"

Title: Re: Fundamentalism: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground 10 May 2006 01:33:12 AM
<anarcissie@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147236836.176732.66750@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Actually, I have read that religion is in decline in the United
States as well as in Europe, when measured by participation
in religious practice, active membership in organizations,
church attendance, and so forth. What has brought
religion to everyone's attention is the increasing fanatical
politicization of fundamentalist religious sects. The
political structure of the United States is such that a
single-minded, energetic minority can wield a lot of
influence if the majority is divided or apathetic. But
in time, conditions change, and in the future we may
see the fundamentalists, driven from power, retreating
back into the woodwork from whence they came.
Considering the affections manifested by Sound
of Trumpet and presumably his co-religionists for
sexism, racism, fascism and Naziism, that may be
a very good thing.

The hollow sound they hear may be their own.

makes me wish we could go back to the hey days of bill clinton when the
fanatics were [rightly] perceived as gun wielding nuts, and nobody, save the
BATF, took them seriously.
.


User: "johac"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 10 May 2006 12:52:15 AM
In article <1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:


Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people.

Add to list of places I must visit: Czech Republic.
Thanks for posting that :-)
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
User: ""

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 11 May 2006 06:05:15 AM
johac wrote:

In article <1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com wrote:



Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people.


Add to list of places I must visit: Czech Republic.

Don't visit Moscow.
Ironically, the center of the old Evil Empire
has become a place of faith. Hundreds of churches have opened anew
since the fall of the Soviet Union and people come and go inside them
all day long from the huge, rebuilt Cathedral of Christ the Savior to
small
chapels. Praying, thinking, lighting candles...they outnumber the
tourists
in churches unlike the rest of Europe.
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 11 May 2006 11:53:00 PM
In article <1147345515.384872.68230@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:

johac wrote:

In article <1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com wrote:



Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people.


Add to list of places I must visit: Czech Republic.


Don't visit Moscow.

Ironically, the center of the old Evil Empire
has become a place of faith. Hundreds of churches have opened anew
since the fall of the Soviet Union and people come and go inside them
all day long from the huge, rebuilt Cathedral of Christ the Savior to
small
chapels. Praying, thinking, lighting candles...they outnumber the
tourists
in churches unlike the rest of Europe.

They must like their authoritarian institutions.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
User: "Darrell Stec"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 19 May 2006 06:30:02 PM
After serious contemplation, on or about Friday 12 May 2006 12:53 am
johac perhaps from
wrote:

In article <1147345515.384872.68230@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru wrote:

johac wrote:

In article <1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com wrote:



Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people.


Add to list of places I must visit: Czech Republic.


Don't visit Moscow.

Ironically, the center of the old Evil Empire
has become a place of faith. Hundreds of churches have opened anew
since the fall of the Soviet Union and people come and go inside them
all day long from the huge, rebuilt Cathedral of Christ the Savior to
small
chapels. Praying, thinking, lighting candles...they outnumber the
tourists
in churches unlike the rest of Europe.


They must like their authoritarian institutions.

I've heard from Russian acquaintances that many of their countrymen
return home after immigrating to America because OF the freedom. There
are just too many decisions to make about everyday life and it becomes
overwhelming. Where one wants to live, what kind of house you want to
live in, what color, design, size and what kind of price do you want to
pay. What color of shoes (and what size for that matter) and what kind
of design? And groceries stores are mind boggling. Not only can you
buy meat, you can actually decide how much and what kind. And if that
isn't enough you can even decide the CUT for god's sake.
An authoritarian religion does take up the slack now that the government
doesn't control EVERY facet of their lives.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.




User: "Uncle Vic"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 09 May 2006 10:16:12 PM
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet (soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com)
made the light shine upon us with this:

Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people. According to a
European Union survey published last year, only 19 percent of Czechs
said they believed in God; most of the rest proclaim themselves
atheists.

And I thought the Norweigans were hip. Looks like there might be hope for
this world yet.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 09 May 2006 09:59:07 PM
Previously, on alt.atheism, soundoftrumpet in episode
<1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>...

Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people.

Lucky bunch.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
User: "Ross Hedvicek"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 31 Dec 1969 06:00:00 PM
In article <mJWdnWASMvVly_zZnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:

From: "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster>
Subject: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 21:59:07 -0500
Previously, on alt.atheism, soundoftrumpet in episode
<1147222004.443709.22480@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>...

Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people.

Lucky bunch.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com

----------------
Ctete "Cesky a slovensky zahranicni casopis - CS-magazin"
http://www.cs-magazin.com a http://hedvicek.blogspot.com
Kupte si knizku "Jak Paroubek kradl salamy" - na adrese
vydavatelstvi http://www.betaknihy.cz/detail.php?k=2
.
User: ""

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 10 May 2006 08:54:56 PM
Jan Kittrich, a 30-year-old Prague lawyer, is typical. He described
himself as an atheist but quickly added that he had nothing against
churches.
"I love to visit them," he said. "But I see them as historical objects,
not as religious places."
Me, too.
Church architecture is quite beautiful. I always visit churches and
temples when I travel.
Religious ceremonies and music are truly the works of creative artists.
It doesn't mean that a supernatural being inspired them any more than
having nightmares is cause by a boogie-man under your bed.
"Even rational people need to believe in something, something bigger
than themselves to make sense of their lives," said Dana Hamplova, a
Prague sociologist whose research has found that while Czechs mistrust
organized religion, they rank very high among Europeans who believe in
the power of fortunetellers, amulets and other non-traditional forms of
spirituality.
This is even worse than religion, it's superstition. It's more
reasonable to assume that your life is controlled by an imaginary being
in the sky than a shiny stone in your hand, or the positions of the
planets.
.



User: "Douglas Berry"

Title: Re: A Hollow Sound On Holy Ground In The World's Most Atheist Country 09 May 2006 10:30:12 PM
What's so funny about peace, love and

posting the following on 9 May 2006 17:46:44 -0700 iin alt.atheism?

(Chicago Tribune (KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) PRAGUE, Czech
Republic _ The Czech capital is cluttered with churches. From humble
parish chapels to the Gothic grandeur of St. Vitus Cathedral, the
wonderment of Christian faith seems to ooze out of the city's every
pore.

But the churches are mostly empty, and the only wonder to most Czechs
is why anyone at all bothers to go.

Czechs are among Europe's most fervently secular people. According to a
European Union survey published last year, only 19 percent of Czechs
said they believed in God; most of the rest proclaim themselves
atheists. Only the former Soviet republic of Estonia had a lower
percentage of believers.

The Czech Republic also has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe,
the highest standard of living among former Warsaw Pact nations. Near
univeral literacy, great education, and they make great beer.
If I was better at languages, I might move to Prague for a few years.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.


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