| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
26 Jan 2006 12:59:03 PM |
| Object: |
A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
http://www.johnmarkreynolds.com/2005/12/letter-to-my-secular-friend.html
Sunday, December 18, 2005
A Letter to My Secular Friend
Dear Edmund,
You just finished Narnia and I admire your being open minded enough to
see the film. It is the sort of thing that irritates you a bit; the way
a paean to atheism can ruin an otherwise fun night out for me. You end
up wanting to argue with the movie and talking back to the screen
simply ruins any date!
Christmas must make the USA seem like a god-centered culture. I know
"Merry Christmas" must grate on your nerves the way the "God
bless America" closing of a President's speech does. You have to
put up with hymns to our God, disguised as holiday cheer, on your
favorite political shows. The easy assumption of all your friends
(eighty-five percent of us!) that everyone is religious is also tough.
I have been in "tiny minority" situations so I know how it feels.
Good cross-cultural manners taught me to accept my minority cultural
status, when in Mongolia act like a Mongolian and not the "ugly
American," and that is one thing I have never understood about you.
You are a sensible guy. You know that most Americans are religious,
have always been religious, and are likely to stay that way. Yet for
some reason the fact that you have chosen to reject majority American
culture means that the rest of us must change in order to become what
you wish us to be. I don't expect the Buddhists of Ulan Bataar to
wish me a merry Christmas, but you seem offended if the Baptists of
Alabama wish you one. That is odd, I think, and may have more to do
with your personal pain than the best side of your personality.
Of course, my strong disagreement with your position often strains our
friendship. I would argue that best evidence suggests that if society
adopts your views it will ruin our culture (or it least make it extinct
in short order) and damn our souls. There are plenty of people who are
wrong, but Christians believe you to be perniciously wrong. You often
return the favor by viewing us as the Taliban or a group of theocrats.
The problem, however, seems to me to be simple. You really do want
America to be secular, more like Sweden than it is now, while I don't
want it to be a theocracy. No Christian I now wants the kind of
religious rule found in Iran, for example. We are opposed to your
actual position, while I feel that sometimes your Internet friends are
opposed to a cartoon version of ours. Thank you for not making that
mistake about your Christian friends!
Of course, I know you are smart. Your position is not stupid and there
are good arguments for it. Heaven knows we can be annoying (or at least
I can be annoying!) in our seemingly smug surety that we are right.
However, please forgive us for that and realize that we too (at our
best) are on a dialectical journey. I believe Christianity is true at
some personal cost because I believe best reason and best experience
demand it. It is not always what I wish were true, but it is what my
intellect and my heart unite in demanding of my better self.
Christianity has problems, of course, like the problem of natural evil
that are very difficult. I feel the force of them and sometimes think
you might be right. Sadly, that old demon logic keeps forcing me back
to traditional Christianity. But enough of that . . . philosophical
argument can be endless! I will quote Plantinga and then you will quote
Flew . . . at least the earlier Flew! I will get my favorite IVP book
and you will lug out your Prometheus titles. We are not going to make
much progress that way.
What does this have to do with the Narnia film? I think that the
problem with your world-view is that it is fundamentally without
beauty. It is not ugly since your world view cannot allow for a real
beautiful. If we struggle with the problem of evil, it is because we
rejoice in being able to see goodness that is not subjective or merely
an arbitrary label placed on reality by our own prejudices.
Christianity can lead to ugliness, but it can explain that ugliness
with resources from within. We don't expect humans to be perfect and
can account for forgiveness.
The story of Narnia, which is very much a Christian story, contrasts so
strongly with the story of secularism. Ours is the world view of
Aquinas, the founding of the Universities, medicine, modern science,
the Renaissance, and most of the great art of the West, but we are also
the religion of the fairy tale. Now I know you have been taught to be
view fairy tales as childish nothings . . . myths by which you mean
merely false stories.
But isn't it obvious from a film like Narnia that some stories strike
very deep? Themes of redemption and divine love may be overdone in our
Western culture, but they are overdone because they still have the
power to make men and women weep. Aslan dies for Edmund. That makes no
sense by the calculus of atoms and scales that will not allow for the
personal, but makes perfect, logical sense to a cosmos full of
personality. Narnia is a grand romance and it is not an accident that
secularists are not able to tell good fairy tales, but must rely on
those old Oxford dons, Tolkien and Lewis, to do it for them. Your great
truths cannot be found in myth for you have reduced romance to
nothingness in a university without personality.
It is personality and romance that is missing from your universe. When
your best thinkers tell me that my love for my wife is one set of
selfish genes looking for another set, then I think that he has never
read Trollope or Shakespeare or been in love. This is not soft
sentimentality, but a set of facts that must be taken into account.
Your worldview explains them away by reducing them to some fog floating
off matter and energy in mindless motion. My worldview recognizes that
we are more sure of love and passion than we are of the existence of
that matter and energy themselves. Christians do not explain love away
.. . . they account for it in the Divine Mind.
Can secularism produce beauty or must it always be parasitic on it? If
it is true that religion has produced horrors like the Inquisition, but
we have also produced the Renaissance and the great cathedrals of
Europe. Can a world-view that believes at bottom that life is
meaningless (finding meaning only in the creation of meaning by the
individual) inspire the sacrifice necessary for great art? There is no
evidence that it can.
Narnia stands for the small against the strong. It stands for the
importance of even the animals against the barren and bleak efficiency
of an all powerful state. Christianity cannot tolerate the abuse of the
individual by either big government or big business and as Narnia
demonstrates provides a basis for the nobility of the common. Every
sentient being is created in the Image of God and has value. Every
voice must be heard and in that universe a hierarchy of gifts can be
recognized without fear for basic human rights are secured by who were
are and not what we can do.
The mindless consumption of the unfettered pursuit of wealth, living
for self, and not for others can never be made consistent with the
religious mind. The jollification of Christmas can be commercialized
but only destroyed in doing so. A feast day is about human values and
can be enjoyed as well by the poor as by the great and mighty. Religion
can account for this, but secularism cannot. Where is the value of the
small man in the world where personhood is reduced to DNA? If merit can
be measure and worth is based on merit, I fear that is mere sentiment
on your part (or a residual Christianity) that prevents debasing the
average in favor of the great god of the famous and the powerful.
Heaven knows that this is a great enough temptation for Christians,
even with our example of the humble Virgin and the crucified Lord, what
will happen when our role models come not from the martyrs, but only
from the "successful?"
I love free markets, but do not worship them and where they break the
dignity of the human person and the laws of God, and then I can limit
them. Where shall you find your limits to the desires of the brightest
and the best in the meritocracy that you would create?
Can secularism even produce children let alone children's literature?
Children are difficult and they get in the way. They seem a bother and
secularists, who proclaim that they are only a Darwinian vehicle for
making babies, seem very chary about actually having them. I understand
that feeling and Lewis himself, steeped in the comfortable atheism of
his intellectual class, missed any chance to have his own children.
Surely it is no accident; however, that he began to write stories for
children, got married, and became something of a step-father in his
later years as he became more thoroughly a Christian? He had a basis in
an immortal soul and in eternity to think that present selfishness
would be judged as bleak and worthy. Exactly what does a secularist
need children for and if secularism itself causes its proponents to
stop making babies then how is its embrace of Darwinian fitness
coherent?
The world of Narnia on the other hand knows nothing of Darwin or of men
and women too selfish to "sacrifice" their present happiness for
eternity. This is a world where Peter must fight, because it is his
duty to fight. It is a world where children are not just called to
stern duties, but an entire world rallies to save them from the secular
modern who would stamp out all children to preserve her reign for all
eternity. It is the essence of Christianity that the old human order
changes and gives way to the new. This is not merely sad, but part of
the very fabric of the world, and the sorrow is mitigated by our future
hopes. Secularism has no such future hopes and so must try to botox
what it has to preserve it in the face of change.
And oddly enough this allows Christians to face the world that way it
is, full of death and suffering caused by our evils, and still find
joy.
The Narnia film calls for jollification! It opposes a world where it is
always bleak winter and never Christmas. Pardon me, but that looks a
great deal like your world, old friend. The great philosopher W.V.
Quine once said that he preferred ontological deserts . . . he wanted a
universe with as few things in it as possible. Pardon me, but some of
us, for good reason it seems to me, prefer the fecundity of the Narnian
spring to the barren "purity" of the Narnian winter.
All things being equal, and surely you must concede that there good
arguments on our side as there are on yours . . . why shouldn't we
prefer to believe in a world where real goodness, real truth, and real
beauty are possible?
"God rest you merry, gentleman." That is the first line of an old
carol. It bids busy men, worldly men like the two of us, to retreat
from despair. Why? Christ our Savior was born on Christmas day! The
fact that it is an old story and a beautiful one does not make it any
less true. The fact that it has profound philosophical defenses does
not make it any less beautiful. It is the old story that is at once
rational and moving. It unites head and heart by worshipping a divine
Logic made flesh.
The Narnia film shows that all the old religions had a fore taste of
that great truth. Christianity need not be dour or Puritanical. It has
been, and still can be, the basis for science . . . which we both know
was the product of the Christian West. It has been, and still can be,
the basis for a Bach, Mozart, and Michelangelo. Bluntly, it seems to me
that you worldview cannot have both. Where are your fairy stories?
Where is your beauty? Where is an adequate basis for the life of
self-sacrifice, almost monastic self-sacrifice, which high science
demands? As religion fades in this land or in Western Europe, I see
more sterility in the culture and more death. I see more despair and
bluntly more drugs and less jollification.
At least consider that this children's story might point to a better
way!
Merry Christmas my friend,
John Mark
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| User: "Splicer" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 10:21:35 PM |
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"words of truth" <truth760@lycos.com> wrote on 26 Jan 2006:
It is the sort of thing that irritates you a bit; the way
a paean to atheism can ruin an otherwise fun night out for me.
So you're saying you didn't like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?
.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 04:52:11 PM |
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A Letter to My Secular Friend
The absurdity is that there is anything about Nardia that is
Christian. Every part of the fable of Christ was old hat when
the person now known as Paul stitched them together to make his
new religion. Virgin birth of a demi-god, martyrdom, rising
from the dead, heaven and hell, the golden rule, a big-daddy god
- all were things occurring in myths that had wiskers by the
time Paul decided his demi-god had existed. If Nardia is an
analogy of Christ, Christ is an analogy of many myths that came
before. The only difference is that no one is trying to make
the United States into a theocracy devoted to the priests and
preachers of the previous myths and the previous myths are not
nearly the threat to liberty and equality before the law that
Christianity is.
--
Lars Eighner http://www.larseighner.com/
"Joy is but the sign that creative emotion is fulfilling its purpose."
--Charles Du Bos, What Is Literature?
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 09:52:46 PM |
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In <1138301943.905258.225700@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <truth760@lycos.com> wrote:
Christmas must make the USA seem like a god-centered culture. I know
"Merry Christmas" must grate on your nerves the way the "God bless
America" closing of a President's speech does. You have to put up with
hymns to our God, disguised as holiday cheer, on your favorite political
shows. The easy assumption of all your friends (eighty-five percent of
us!)
Christianity is down to maybe 70%. As it's been declining at a rate of
almost 1% per year from about 76.5% in 2001 (per ARIS). That would mean
losing majority status by about 2025.
Interestingly enough, the "no religion" group was 14.1% in 2001 and
growing roughly at a rate of 0.6% per year. That could mean about 16.8%
this year, passing the Baptists who were at 16.3% in 2001 though declining
at about 0.4% per year which (all of this being straight line projections)
would mean they're at about 14.3% by now.
One of the most interesting things that has been turned up by a *Christian
researcher (Barna) is here:
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=203
While some 72% claimed they had "made a personal commitment to Jesus
Christ" only "29% had attended a church service, prayed to God and read
from the Bible during the past week."
So while some 70% of the population will nod their heads if you say
"Jesus" at them, only about 30% care enough about the religion to *do
anything about it.
That rather means the "non-religious" segment of the population is
*already the majority...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Katrina aftermath pictures
http://www.nola.com/katrinaphotos/user/
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 09:15:53 PM |
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In <1138301943.905258.225700@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <truth760@lycos.com> wrote:
http://www.johnmarkreynolds.com/2005/12/letter-to-my-secular-friend.html
Sunday, December 18, 2005
A Letter to My Secular Friend
Wow, that was stupid...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Katrina aftermath pictures
http://www.nola.com/katrinaphotos/user/
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 03:40:00 PM |
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On 26 Jan 2006 10:59:03 -0800, "words of truth" <truth760@lycos.com>
wrote:
Sadly, that old demon logic keeps forcing me back
to traditional Christianity.
This line by itself is sufficient grounds to dismiss the author as an
idiot.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "The Other Kim" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 03:14:34 PM |
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Snipping most of the drivel to correct a blatant lie propagated by the
folks at WorldNutDaily, among others.
Christmas must make the USA seem like a god-centered culture. I know
"Merry Christmas" must grate on your nerves the way the "God
bless America" closing of a President's speech does. You have to
put up with hymns to our God, disguised as holiday cheer, on your
favorite political shows. The easy assumption of all your friends
(eighty-five percent of us!)
That 85% number is wrong. Using the last census numbers from 2000, 15%
of the country responded "atheist/agnostic/no religion". Amazing how
the rest of the country would be Christian, using WND's 85% figure.
Well, we know that's wrong. That same census shows that the actual
number for Christians is closer to 75%, and among those only about half
are observant. And then you're leaving out all the Jews, Muslims,
Wiccans/pagans (the fastest growing religious movement in the country,
BTW), Hindus, Buddhists, and the rest of the 200+ different religions
represented by the people of the US.
The "America is a Christian nation" crap is just that; crap. There is
no state religion. Please find for me in the Constitution, which is the
foundational document of this country, just where it says what god I
should worship. You won't find it because it isn't there. Sure, the
Declaration of Independence mentions a "Creator" but also leaves it up
to the individual to decide just who or what that "Creator" is. Others
cite the Pledge of Allegiance, with its "under God" wording, as showing
that the US is a "Christian country". Wrong again. Those words were
added by an act of Congress in 1954, at the height of the McCarthy era,
when it was somehow assumed - wrongly, I might add - that Communists
weren't allowed or were unable to say the word "God".
Next time get your facts straight. I didn't bother to read any further
than the bit I quoted because I figure if you can't even reference the
correct numbers, much of the rest would be wrong, too.
The Other Kim
kimagreenfieldatyahoodotcom
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| User: "westprog" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 05:27:01 AM |
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"The Other Kim" <mjg@deltanet.com> wrote in message
news:43srvlF1p9mc9U1@individual.net...
That same census shows that the actual
number for Christians is closer to 75%, and among those only about half
are observant.
If that means that half of them are living a Christian life, without sin,
I'd suggest the number would be closer to none of them. If it means that
they are trying to lead a Christian life without sin, I'd say it's a bit
more than half.
I assume that it means regularly attending church, which is a very minor
part of Christian observance.
J/
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 06:55:08 PM |
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"westprog" <westprog@hotmail.com> wrote
I assume that it means regularly attending church, which is a very minor
part of Christian observance.
90% of life is showing up.
Attendance at church is absolutely crucial, becasue it distinguishes
practising Chrisitians from those whose faith is unimportant to them.
You always get a few exceptions, like the William Blake type figure who is
obsessed with religion, but feels that churches are too self-righteous.
These are very much the exception, the non-practising nominal Christian
couple down the street aren't avoiding church for those reasons.
Having shown up, you are of course expected to take a bit of action. That's
the other 10% of life.
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 04:25:10 PM |
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On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:14:34 -0800, "The Other Kim" <mjg@deltanet.com>
wrote:
The "America is a Christian nation" crap is just that; crap. There is
no state religion. Please find for me in the Constitution, which is the
foundational document of this country, just where it says what god I
should worship. You won't find it because it isn't there. Sure, the
Declaration of Independence mentions a "Creator" but also leaves it up
to the individual to decide just who or what that "Creator" is.
You are confusing two separate issues. America does not, never has had, and
never will have a state religion. On that point, the most devout
fundamentalist and most vehement atheist - and everyone in between - can
find common ground for agreement.
But, America has been culturally Christian for most of its two centuries of
existence. Less so now than in the past, but the past history is
unassailable. Here are just three of literally thousands of quotes in
support:
"The glory of the revolution is it united in one indissoluble bond the
principles of Christianity with the principles of civil government."
-- John Quincy Adams
"It is the privilege of Americans to prefer Christians as rulers."
-- Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay
"Whatever makes men good Christians makes them good citizens."
-- Daniel Webster
And, a bonus from Alexis de Tocqueville:
"Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of
society, but nevertheless it must be regarded as the foremost of the
political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a
taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of free institutions.
Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the
United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know
whether all the Americans have a sincere faith in their religion, for
who can search the human heart? But, I am certain that they hold it
to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions.
This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizen or to a party, but
it belongs to the whole nation, and to every rank of society."
- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America (1835)
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| User: "The Other Kim" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 06:43:27 PM |
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You are confusing two separate issues. America does not, never has
had, and
never will have a state religion. On that point, the most devout
fundamentalist and most vehement atheist - and everyone in between -
can
find common ground for agreement.
I'm not the one confusing anything. The First Amendment, long may it
remain in place, states that Congress shall make no law establishing
religion nor prohibiting the free expression thereof. I understand that
that allows all Americans to practice their religion, whatever that
religion may be. I just wish others would understand that as well.
Some Christians, including our current President ("I don't believe
witchcraft is a religion", when asked about whether the military should
have recognized Wicca), have decided that my religion, or any religion
that isn't their brand of Christianity (some even include the religion
of my children and of Christian history, Judaism) is "false" and,
therefore, they're perfectly within their rights to disrupt a peaceful
ritual, or wedding, or even a picnic in a park just because they believe
that the religion being practiced is "wrong". Imagine the uproar if a
Christian prayer circle was disrupted, yet it's somehow okay for a group
of evangelicals, led by a sheriff's deputy who used his position to do
this, to disrupt a peaceful ritual and store blessing by blasting hymns
through speakers and shouting prayers through bullhorns, as happened
here in Lancaster, CA, a few years ago. And it's okay for police with
guns drawn to disrupt a pagan handfasting, even though the participants
had taken out a permit for use of the park and were not breaking any
laws.
I'm not so sure about your "never will" have a state religion. With the
rise of fundamentalist evangelical Christianity in this country, and the
apparent soon-to-be confirmation of Alito to the Supreme Court - he who
believes in a "unitary executive", or King Dubya - it wouldn't take much
to get that First Amendment changed. All it would take would be for the
Supremes to decide that the President has unchecked powers, Dubya then
declares the Constitution null and void and imposes Dominionism a la
Dobson on the country. Not incredibly likely, but I think this way
sometimes.
But, America has been culturally Christian for most of its two
centuries of
existence. Less so now than in the past, but the past history is
unassailable. Here are just three of literally thousands of quotes in
support:
I snipped your quotes because I can find just as many on the other side
of the fence, all from people like Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams
and Madison (and Gandhi, who has my personal favorite, which I'm gonna
paraphrase: I like your Christ but not your Christians. They are so
unlike your Christ.), just to name a few.
So just because Christianity has had an undue influence on American
culture we should all just "get with the program"? That's not how it
works. The problem, as I see it, is that those who scream about America
being a "Christian country" don't understand that by allowing "minority"
religions to be practiced, the Constitution protects the "majority"
religion as well.
Which version of Christianity is the "right" one, anyway? Ask a
fundamentalist Protestant if Catholics are Christian, and it's likely
you'll hear "no" for an answer; I've asked this very question to these
very fundamentalists and have gotten that very answer. Gods, you can't
even get the various Lutheran groups to agree on everything, and they're
allegedly the same denomination (for the record, I was raised Missouri
Synod Lutheran and witnessed some of the hostilities when I was growing
up).
I'll enjoy my right to practice my religion as long as it lasts.
The Other Kim
kimagreenfieldatyahoodotcom
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 06:55:07 PM |
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"The Other Kim" <mjg@deltanet.com> wrote
Some Christians, including our current President ("I don't believe
witchcraft is a religion", when asked about whether the military should
have recognized Wicca), have decided that my religion, or any religion
that isn't their brand of Christianity (some even include the religion
of my children and of Christian history, Judaism) is "false" and,
therefore, they're perfectly within their rights to disrupt a peaceful
ritual, or wedding, or even a picnic in a park just because they believe
that the religion being practiced is "wrong". Imagine the uproar if a
Christian prayer circle was disrupted,
Jews disrupt meetings by people describing themselves as "Nazis", because
Nazis were notorious enemies of the Jews.
So why shouldn't Christians disrupt meetings held by people describing
themselves as witches?
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| User: "David Johnston" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 07:55:10 PM |
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On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:55:07 +0000 (UTC), "Malcolm"
<regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote:
"The Other Kim" <mjg@deltanet.com> wrote
Some Christians, including our current President ("I don't believe
witchcraft is a religion", when asked about whether the military should
have recognized Wicca), have decided that my religion, or any religion
that isn't their brand of Christianity (some even include the religion
of my children and of Christian history, Judaism) is "false" and,
therefore, they're perfectly within their rights to disrupt a peaceful
ritual, or wedding, or even a picnic in a park just because they believe
that the religion being practiced is "wrong". Imagine the uproar if a
Christian prayer circle was disrupted,
Jews disrupt meetings by people describing themselves as "Nazis", because
Nazis were notorious enemies of the Jews.
By and large they don't.
So why shouldn't Christians disrupt meetings held by people describing
themselves as witches?
Well for one thing because witches were never enemies of Christians.
Christians were enemies of witches. Despite that, you don't see
witches disrupting church services.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 01:17:52 PM |
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Wordy, slanted, and not particularly logical, but I'll acknowledge the
work you put into it. I stop reading when I hit lies, though, and that
came pretty early on:
Yet for some reason the fact that you have chosen to reject majority
American culture means that the rest of us must change in order to become > what you wish us to be.
Give me an example of a religious person who HAD to change to satisfy
an atheist. I'm assuming you don't mean government-supported religious
displays.
No, we non-Christians simply *suggest* that religious people change, if
only for politeness' sake. Personally, I'm startled by the ridiculous
stubbornness of folks who refuse to use a holiday greeting other than
"Merry Christmas." What, they don't want to be polite to Jews?
Buddhists? Atheists? Wow, *that's* a Christ-like attitude.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 04:14:45 PM |
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<Followups trimmed>
In rec.arts.sf.written wrote:
[snip]
No, we non-Christians simply *suggest* that religious people change, if
only for politeness' sake. Personally, I'm startled by the ridiculous
stubbornness of folks who refuse to use a holiday greeting other than
"Merry Christmas." What, they don't want to be polite to Jews?
Buddhists? Atheists? Wow, *that's* a Christ-like attitude.
Surely one should offer greetings based on your world-view, not anothers.
You can't know what the other person observes in *every* case -- so a
Christian might wish someone a Merry Christmas, and be wished a Joyous
Solstice in return, and all are happy. Except the eternally grumpy, of course.
When a muslim prays that "Allah watch over you", that is /not/ an insult
if I am not also a muslim. If I expect him to use a blessing appropriate
for *my* belief-system, that is entirely inappropriate and impolite on my
part. And if someone not of my belief-system tries to "fit in" with what
they think I believe, well, that's kinda rude, too.
--
--Stewart Stremler--------------------------------stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu--
Don't tease me, you know what I do for a living.
--Martin Blank (_Grosse Pointe Blank_)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 05:39:49 PM |
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Surely one should offer greetings based on your world-view, not anothers.
You can't know what the other person observes in *every* case -- so a
Christian might wish someone a Merry Christmas, and be wished a Joyous
Solstice in return, and all are happy.
Congratulations. You have a reasonable point, and you express it well.
Still, I disagree.
Why would you offer someone a greeting that has nothing to do -- or
worse still contradicts -- their belief system? Why does a greeting
exchanged with, say, a total stranger, have to bring up religion?
Frankly I'd think it odd if a Christian wished a Jew a Merry Christmas,
and the Jew responded with "Happy Hanukkah." Is it a greeting or a
competition?
It seems odd that gays are accused of foisting their lifestyles on
others, yet when you say two words to a stranger you HAVE to tell them
about God?
Again, this isn't the case of an atheist "forcing" a religious person
to do anything. I'm just mystified by why Christians have dug their
heels in on this issue, proclaiming in so many words that "I'm going to
wish you a Merry Christmas whether you like it or not!" The Jews have
it right: just say hello, and keep religion where it belongs: in
church, and with folks you *know* similarly worship.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 06:55:09 PM |
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<pluto@quentincrisp.com> wrote
Why does a greeting exchanged with, say, a total stranger, have to bring
up religion?
Goodbye - "God be with ye."
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| User: "The PhAnToM" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 07:02:44 PM |
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wrote:
Wordy, slanted, and not particularly logical, but I'll acknowledge the
work you put into it. I stop reading when I hit lies, though, and that
came pretty early on:
Yet for some reason the fact that you have chosen to reject majority
American culture means that the rest of us must change in order to become > what you wish us to be.
Give me an example of a religious person who HAD to change to satisfy
an atheist. I'm assuming you don't mean government-supported religious
displays.
No, we non-Christians simply *suggest* that religious people change, if
only for politeness' sake. Personally, I'm startled by the ridiculous
stubbornness of folks who refuse to use a holiday greeting other than
"Merry Christmas."
My Jewish friends don't care... do I tell them they are offending me
when they openly celebrate _their_ feasts? They wish _me_ Merry
Christmas, and I wish them Happy (insert Jewish festival and holiday
here) if I happen to be around during that time, and I wish an Israeli
friend "Shabbat Shalom" if I happen to email her when their Sabbath is
impending.
The Vietnamese guy in the cube next to me celebrates Christmas, and
he's a practicing Buddhist, but since this is his adopted country, he's
an AMERICAN (take note). The Hindu girl a few cubes away wished me
Merry Christmas even though she doesn't celebrate it. I'll be wishing
the Vietnamese and Chinese Happy Lunar New Year next week, even though
I don't use their calendar, and have any personal stake in their
culture. One of the _Muslim_ engineers I work with even wished me Merry
Christmas. Additionally, millions of agnostics and maybe even some
non-rabid atheists celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. I went
around this year asked all of these people if saying "Merry Christmas"
was somehow offensive. They all thought the anti-Christmas attitude was
ridiculous.
When Bush offered a prayer from Isaiah when the Space Shuttle crashed,
I asked another Hindu girl I worked with if that offended her. She even
went so far as to say "Of course not, America is a Christian nation."
One wonders what a foreigner from the other side of the world sees that
people here do not.
I live and work in the Silicon Valley, and I think we are ground
central for both Liberalism and Multiculturalism here in America. I
therefore think I have a good handle on the mainstream, and have access
to the people to whom anti-Christmas types seem to be offended for by
proxy. It would never occur to me to have told a Mexican to shut up if
they wished me a happy Cinco de Mayo, even when in reality I couldn't
care less about the holiday. There are a lot of them that celebrate it
here, and plenty of people other than Mexicans who join in the
celebrations. That is the way it is. If I'm offended, then too bad,
there are more of them than me!
So, having asked my peers and friends these past few years, to make
sure I was not inadvertently offending them, I can only conclude that
the people that are offended by a holiday greeting, which in reality is
just someone wishing you well, are just a bunch of grumpy jackasses
that should be paid no mind by people of good will.
What, they don't want to be polite to Jews?
Buddhists? Atheists? Wow, *that's* a Christ-like attitude.
If someone is _obviously_ Jewish (like a Hasidim, or someone wearing a
yarmulke), or _obviously_ a Buddhist, then I don't think anyone is dumb
nor rude enough to wish them a "Merry Christmas", but then isn't what
we're talking about, it is just an idiotic fantasy situation that you
have made up, so why don't you just take your bad self right out of
here----> *
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| User: "Bruce Scott TOK" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 02:40:06 PM |
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I think that whole thing is rubbish. Just juxtapose the situation.
Imagine how Christians would feel if not only the whole country were not
only secular but simply didn't care, but also the Government were so
rabid atheist that to run for office you had to denounce not only the
Christian god but any god.
What would be their reaction then?
Paranoid Christian fantasies of persecution merely show to illustrate
how far they are from a balanced viewpoint.
--
ciao,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
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| User: "norrin" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
26 Jan 2006 07:46:20 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
http://www.johnmarkreynolds.com/2005/12/letter-to-my-secular-friend.html
Sunday, December 18, 2005
A Letter to My Secular Friend
Dear Edmund,
"Hello," he lied.
Are you trying to be offensive? I think so. You address the reader as
you
would address a traitor.
You just finished Narnia and I admire your being open minded enough to
see the film. It is the sort of thing that irritates you a bit; the way
a paean to atheism can ruin an otherwise fun night out for me. You end
up wanting to argue with the movie and talking back to the screen
simply ruins any date!
Christmas must make the USA seem like a god-centered culture. I know
"Merry Christmas" must grate on your nerves the way the "God
bless America" closing of a President's speech does. You have to
You're attacking a straw man, and the straw man is winning. A
scarecrow is
not usually a beneficial member of society, but even a scarecrow is
better
than a humbug.
The only people who care about "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holidays"
are people who are selling something. They might think that people
object to
a Christmas Turkey and name it a Holiday Turkey instead. People know a
turkey when they see one.
(snip)
Narnia stands for the small against the strong. It stands for the
importance of even the animals against the barren and bleak efficiency
of an all powerful state. Christianity cannot tolerate the abuse of the
individual by either big government or big business and as Narnia
If you can't tolerate it, do something about it. Do something about
Gitmo.
Do something about the secret flights visiting a British airstrip.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 09:24:25 AM |
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words of truth wrote:
http://www.johnmarkreynolds.com/2005/12/letter-to-my-secular-friend.html
Sunday, December 18, 2005
A Letter to My Secular Friend
Dear Edmund,
You just finished Narnia and I admire your being open minded enough to
see the film. It is the sort of thing that irritates you a bit; the way
a paean to atheism can ruin an otherwise fun night out for me. You end
up wanting to argue with the movie and talking back to the screen
simply ruins any date!
Another cut and paste job, what a surprise.
If the author actually takes this tone with his
friends they must be very few in number.
Larry
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 07:10:44 AM |
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words of truth wrote:
http://www.johnmarkreynolds.com/2005/12/letter-to-my-secular-friend.html
Sunday, December 18, 2005
A Letter to My Secular Friend
Christmas must make the USA seem like a god-centered culture. I know
"Merry Christmas" must grate on your nerves the way the "God
bless America" closing of a President's speech does. You have to
put up with hymns to our God, disguised as holiday cheer, on your
favorite political shows.
I suppose it also grates on your ears to hear references to
Easter, named for a pagan rabbit goddess, or to Thursday,
named for the god Thor. In fact, you must go into hysterics
whenever you hear the name of five of the seven days of the
week, since they're named for pagan deities.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
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| User: "Captain America" |
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| Title: Re: A Letter To Secular Fan Of Narnia |
27 Jan 2006 09:15:43 AM |
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"Dan Clore" <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:43ukfhF1pk09fU1@individual.net...
words of truth wrote:
http://www.johnmarkreynolds.com/2005/12/letter-to-my-secular-friend.html
Sunday, December 18, 2005
A Letter to My Secular Friend
Christmas must make the USA seem like a god-centered culture. I know
"Merry Christmas" must grate on your nerves the way the "God
bless America" closing of a President's speech does. You have to
put up with hymns to our God, disguised as holiday cheer, on your
favorite political shows.
I suppose it also grates on your ears to hear references to
Easter, named for a pagan rabbit goddess, or to Thursday,
named for the god Thor. In fact, you must go into hysterics
whenever you hear the name of five of the seven days of the
week, since they're named for pagan deities.
--
Dan Clore
Especially Monday. I hate Monday. But I do love that little Easter rabbit
with the battery on his back. He just goes, and goes, and goes, and goes,
and ...
God Bless America and God Bless George W Bush, the most significant
President of this Century.
--Captain America
www.royergovernance.com
www.kickaliberalsbutt.com
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