| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"ZpiralZone" |
| Date: |
26 Dec 2005 10:40:46 AM |
| Object: |
A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
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| User: "mel turner" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 12:01:29 PM |
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"ZpiralZone" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in
message news:f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com...
Jabbers, is that you?
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist.
But no doubt he keeps his religion separate from his science, at
least whenever he's doing science.
He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
That's very nice, but of course such warm fuzzy feelings are private
and separate from the science aspects of his findings. And even
scientists who happen to be atheist can also get that same sense of
awe and mystery when discovering new things about the universe.
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
Don't be silly, of course there's no such rule. Plenty of professional
biologists are also devout believers in the usual religions, and see
no necessary conflict at all between understanding the findings of
modern science and keeping their religious beliefs. Accepting the
facts of biological evolution and other sciences neither requires nor
implies atheism. And BTW, even divine creation as in Genesis would
still be a form of "abiogenesis", as would any origin of life from
non-life.
Fundamentalists who try to force an either-or conflict where there
needn't be one are likely to continue to have an influence contrary
to their wishes-- people might take their word for it and reject
religion in order to go with science.
cheers
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 01:10:02 PM |
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In <dopair$d9j$1@gargoyle.oit.duke.edu>, "mel turner"
<mturner@snipthis.acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
"ZpiralZone" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com...
Jabbers, is that you?
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist.
But no doubt he keeps his religion separate from his science, at least
whenever he's doing science.
Ayup.
I see the OP didn't provide a citation. When I found the article that
contains the quote the OP did use, I can see why the cite wasn't provided...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B53F25E5C
Collins opposes ID and calls evolutionary theory "...one of the most
reliable theories in science."
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
So much for that "storm of the century" excuse
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A3992495C
NO held hostage by oil corporations,
ANWR demanded as ransom
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J5C92195C
White House balks at spending on US citizens,
needs more billions for Iraq!
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D93595C
(Tell me again how much we spent bailing out the S&Ls?)
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "explainer" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 11:34:22 AM |
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Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
.
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| User: "`´Saba Gracile´`" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 12:01:25 PM |
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"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destination
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Saba
.
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| User: "byron" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 09:50:31 AM |
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I'm sure that your discussion is very, very interesting and
I'm sure that it is very, very important, but why are you
cross posting it to alt.free.newsservers? What does this
thread have to do with free.newsservers?
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:01:25 +0100, "`´Saba Gracile´`"
<caba@hotmail.som> wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destination
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Saba
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 08:53:36 AM |
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On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:01:25 +0100, "`´Saba Gracile´`"
<caba@hotmail.som> wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
No it isn't. The Liars For God say it is but they offer no way of
determining it. But then we know they can't because there is no wayto
do that. Nor any reason even to postulate it.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
Because it isn'y obvious, liar.
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destination
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Liar.
Saba
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| User: "explainer" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 03:47:57 PM |
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`=B4Saba Gracile=B4` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destinati=
on
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Oops. Missed this important part. If by "Know in God" you mean they
have an absolute belief in a creation source, that's what I call
"belief." For me, a belief is true, just as true as a fact, but
there's no direct evidence. I believe in a creative source behind the
origin of the universe and I used to personify it (it's what I was
taught), but I no longer believe that creator is an intelligence in the
image of man.
If you have not read Miller's book, In Search of Darwin's God, or
Haven's gen-e-sis, I encourage you to scan them to see whether they
have something to say worth your hearing.
Gordon
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| User: "`´Saba Gracile´`" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 02:04:25 PM |
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"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135633677.361579.61910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
`´Saba Gracile´` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay.
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destination
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Oops. Missed this important part. If by "Know in God" you mean they
have an absolute belief in a creation source, that's what I call
"belief." For me, a belief is true, just as true as a fact, but
there's no direct evidence. I believe in a creative source behind the
origin of the universe and I used to personify it (it's what I was
taught), but I no longer believe that creator is an intelligence in the
image of man.
### nobody asks you to believe he has gray hair or smelly farts either.
People use alot of 'belief' clishès that makes it embarassing to conclude
the obvious. what is said is that the technology of the body is so good
they just can't say it's accidental. The opposite of that is deliberate. Do the
math.
If you have not read Miller's book, In Search of Darwin's God, or
Haven's gen-e-sis, I encourage you to scan them to see whether they
have something to say worth your hearing.
###well why not?
Saba
Gordon
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 06:54:05 PM |
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On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:04:25 +0100, "`´Saba Gracile´`"
<caba@hotmail.som> wrote:
:
...For me, a belief is true, just as true as a fact, but
there's no direct evidence...
:
You have elegantly summed up the very reason that I avoid theism, as I
would a nasty disease.
It quite clearly rots your faculties of discrimination.
Thanks for the admission that you are thoroughly gullible, as well as
utterly illogical.
Conversation over.
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| User: "explainer" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
28 Dec 2005 07:42:38 AM |
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So you have no beliefs? There is nothing true to you that is beyond
proof?
How sad. Love is grand and beyond proof.
All the best, Gordon Hill
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
28 Dec 2005 02:52:53 PM |
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On 28 Dec 2005 05:42:38 -0800, "explainer" <gordon@explainer.com>
wrote:
So you have no beliefs? There is nothing true to you that is beyond
proof?
Are you talking to me?
It's quite hard to tell, as the conclusions that you have jumped to
are totally bizarre.
I would like you to explain, as a metter of logic, how you arrived at
them, given what I posted.
"explainer": time to earn your epithet.
How sad. Love is grand and beyond proof.
I have not made any proposition about "love", anywhere in this thread.
What has that got to do with anything?
All the best, Gordon Hill
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| User: "?Saba Gracile?" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
04 Jan 2006 06:47:09 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> skrev i melding
news:5iu5r192j4rvihicn2v9o1a93au08l25re@4ax.com...
On 28 Dec 2005 05:42:38 -0800, "explainer" <gordon@explainer.com>
How sad. Love is grand and beyond proof.
I have not made any proposition about "love", anywhere in this thread.
What has that got to do with anything?
All the best, Gordon Hill
Do you live every second of your day using deductive reasoning/logic? If
not, then you're a believer too, we all are. We use intuition and other illogical
things.
Saba
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
04 Jan 2006 12:56:57 PM |
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On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:47:09 +0100, "?Saba Gracile?" <caba@hotmail.som> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> skrev i melding
news:5iu5r192j4rvihicn2v9o1a93au08l25re@4ax.com...
On 28 Dec 2005 05:42:38 -0800, "explainer" <gordon@explainer.com>
How sad. Love is grand and beyond proof.
I have not made any proposition about "love", anywhere in this thread.
What has that got to do with anything?
All the best, Gordon Hill
Do you live every second of your day using deductive reasoning/logic? If
not, then you're a believer too, we all are.
We use intuition and other illogical
things.
Do we?
Perhaps you would like to explain when we use "intuition", and *which* other
illogical things?
Farther: How does using intuition, make a person a "believer", and what is it
that they believe in?
The spelling Like any opinion stated here
purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
--
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| User: "explainer" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
04 Jan 2006 05:05:06 PM |
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I think I caused a train of thought wreck on this thread/string/branch.
Sorry, GH
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| User: "explainer" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
04 Jan 2006 05:03:32 PM |
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Oops. Sorry. Errant fingers.
GH
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| User: "explainer" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 04:19:55 PM |
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`=B4Saba Gracile=B4` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135633677.361579.61910@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
`=B4Saba Gracile=B4` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifest=
ed
everywhere.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to t=
he
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay.
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destina=
tion
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Oops. Missed this important part. If by "Know in God" you mean they
have an absolute belief in a creation source, that's what I call
"belief." For me, a belief is true, just as true as a fact, but
there's no direct evidence. I believe in a creative source behind the
origin of the universe and I used to personify it (it's what I was
taught), but I no longer believe that creator is an intelligence in the
image of man.
### nobody asks you to believe he has gray hair or smelly farts either.
People use alot of 'belief' clish=E8s that makes it embarassing to conclu=
de
the obvious. what is said is that the technology of the body is so good
they just can't say it's accidental. The opposite of that is deliberate. =
Do the
math.
Not sure I follow this, but if I do, my point is that a belief, a true
belief, transcends math or any rational approach. The proper exchange
I see is:
A says, "I believe X."
B says, "Okay, I believe Y."
A says, "Okay."
..=2E.when you are talking about a true belief, but the following...
A says, "I believe X."
B says, "That's stupid, I believe Y and anyone who believes otherwise
is an idiot."
A says, "That's domber than dumb. Everyone knows X is true. Show me
your evidence for Y."
There is no evidence for X or Y. If there was they would be fact or at
least opinions.
If you have not read Miller's book, In Search of Darwin's God, or
Haven's gen-e-sis, I encourage you to scan them to see whether they
have something to say worth your hearing.
=20
###well why not?
Why not what?
All the best, Gordon Hill
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| User: "explainer" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 03:41:05 PM |
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`=B4Saba Gracile=B4` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
My point is the difference between a fact and belief. Correct, if by
intelligent design you mean an orderly construction of something.
However if you mean there is an "intelligent designer" that I would
call a belief because there is no direct evidence for the designers
presence.
I see the ID idea a compromise for those who don't buy the absolutism
of creationism, but haven't made the complete move to ToE; therefore,
they say, "Okay, evolution is sound, but only so far. there's stuff
that is beyond "random causation". The problem with that is--if I
understand what I read in Haven's book, gen-e-sis correctly--the
causation is not entirely random. Just as there is order within "chaos
theory" there appears to me to be order withinin the evolutionary
process.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
Again correct, if by intelligent design you are marvelling at the order
of the universe and all therein, but when one says; therefore, there is
an intelligent source to thins, that's a belief.
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destinati=
on
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
=20
Saba
Gordon HIll
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| User: "`´Saba Gracile´`" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 01:56:50 PM |
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"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135633265.525899.247710@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
`´Saba Gracile´` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
My point is the difference between a fact and belief. Correct, if by
intelligent design you mean an orderly construction of something.
###Yes!
However if you mean there is an "intelligent designer" that I would
call a belief because there is no direct evidence for the designers
presence.
###Designer is inherent in the meaning of the word design, don't have to
be a rocketscientist to see that
I see the ID idea a compromise for those who don't buy the absolutism
of creationism, but haven't made the complete move to ToE; therefore,
they say, "Okay, evolution is sound, but only so far. there's stuff
that is beyond "random causation". The problem with that is--if I
understand what I read in Haven's book, gen-e-sis correctly--the
causation is not entirely random. Just as there is order within "chaos
theory" there appears to me to be order withinin the evolutionary
process.
###There's no need to put absolutism into the absolute certain things
like theres a design with a designer. A lot of talk doesn't change that.¨
There is order in every belief if one has that belief. I'm sure there was
perfect order in every suicide cult's ideas. That's not a mystery, within
evolutionary theory everything falls into place immediately for those
who feels like it. I judge by science standards when looking around me
that it is design.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
Again correct, if by intelligent design you are marvelling at the order
of the universe and all therein, but when one says; therefore, there is
an intelligent source to thins, that's a belief.
Where is there a design without the designer?
Saba
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destination
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Saba
Gordon HIll
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 09:04:37 AM |
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On 26 Dec 2005 13:41:05 -0800, "explainer" <gordon@explainer.com>
wrote:
`´Saba Gracile´` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
My point is the difference between a fact and belief. Correct, if by
intelligent design you mean an orderly construction of something.
However if you mean there is an "intelligent designer" that I would
call a belief because there is no direct evidence for the designers
presence.
I see the ID idea a compromise for those who don't buy the absolutism
of creationism, but haven't made the complete move to ToE; therefore,
they say, "Okay, evolution is sound, but only so far. there's stuff
that is beyond "random causation". The problem with that is--if I
understand what I read in Haven's book, gen-e-sis correctly--the
causation is not entirely random. Just as there is order within "chaos
theory" there appears to me to be order withinin the evolutionary
process.
However they should keep it to themselves because it is (a)
creationism substituting an anonymous intelligence for God pretending
its not the same, with no evidence whatsoever, and (b) not science.
These people come up with "new" baseless claim every few years which
the go to court to try and get taight as science. Just wait for the ID
crowd to come up with some more transparent ***** ain a few years
and go through exactly the same lawsuits that waste everybody's time,
effort and money.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
Again correct, if by intelligent design you are marvelling at the order
of the universe and all therein, but when one says; therefore, there is
an intelligent source to thins, that's a belief.
Why do you lot keep lying about this?
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destination
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Saba
Gordon HIll
.
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| User: "`´Saba Gracile´`" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 01:59:30 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> skrev i melding
news:col2r1lfndc0lqo3r4utev9gb7fuftmulm@4ax.com...
On 26 Dec 2005 13:41:05 -0800, "explainer" <gordon@explainer.com>
wrote:
`´Saba Gracile´` wrote:
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> skrev i melding
news:1135618462.701554.70250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
But you don't even have to believe in intelligent design, it's manifested
everywhere.
My point is the difference between a fact and belief. Correct, if by
intelligent design you mean an orderly construction of something.
However if you mean there is an "intelligent designer" that I would
call a belief because there is no direct evidence for the designers
presence.
I see the ID idea a compromise for those who don't buy the absolutism
of creationism, but haven't made the complete move to ToE; therefore,
they say, "Okay, evolution is sound, but only so far. there's stuff
that is beyond "random causation". The problem with that is--if I
understand what I read in Haven's book, gen-e-sis correctly--the
causation is not entirely random. Just as there is order within "chaos
theory" there appears to me to be order withinin the evolutionary
process.
However they should keep it to themselves because it is (a)
creationism substituting an anonymous intelligence for God pretending
its not the same, with no evidence whatsoever, and (b) not science.
oh yea give me that, they are in need for a skydaddy argument
These people come up with "new" baseless claim every few years which
the go to court to try and get taight as science. Just wait for the ID
crowd to come up with some more transparent ***** ain a few years
and go through exactly the same lawsuits that waste everybody's time,
effort and money.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Design is a baseline simple observation. It's so simple to conclude it's rediculous
which is why "sophisticated " scientists cannot do it. But they can turn
monkeys into humans, ah, that's science.
Don't have to believe in intelligent design it is a manifest in itself.
Why call something obvious a belief?
Again correct, if by intelligent design you are marvelling at the order
of the universe and all therein, but when one says; therefore, there is
an intelligent source to thins, that's a belief.
Why do you lot keep lying about this?
Why do you keep denying this? are you in denial?
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
I have had bioteachers tell me that inside the cell so many factory
parts are working together like railways to bring stuff to it's destination
it makes them Know in God (not believe). It wasn't like they were
idiots who needed a God, they just see Him..it or She in their work.
Saba
Gordon HIll
Saba
.
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| User: "byron" |
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| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 09:46:15 AM |
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I'm sure that your discussion is very, very interesting and
I'm sure that it is very, very important, but why are you
cross posting it to alt.free.newsservers? What does this
thread have to do with free.newsservers?
On 26 Dec 2005 09:34:22 -0800, "explainer" <gordon@explainer.com>
wrote:
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
All the best, Gordon Hill
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 08:50:33 AM |
|
|
On 26 Dec 2005 09:34:22 -0800, "explainer" <gordon@explainer.com>
wrote:
Hello, hello!!!
He is one of many. The only conflict between the theory of evolution
and a belief in God is in the minds of the absolutists who haven't
realized or will not admit that a true belief has no basis in fact, it
is held true sans evidence otherwise it wouldn't be a belief.
This blows the mind of both the perfect rationalist and the absolute
creationists, who thinks everything believed must have proof.. It
There is no symmetry - and it is offensive to say there is.
causes the non-rationalist (who holds that every thought is true to the
thinker) to reply, "So what? That's what you believe, but not what I
believe. That's okay."
Not in science.
By the way, Dr. Kenneth Miller, witness for the plaintiff at Dover, is
a Christian as is Dr. Michael Behe, witness for the defense. Both are
biologists. Miller subscribes to ToE. Behe is harder to figure. He
supports ID, but seems to subscribe to ToE somewhat.
Behe lied through his teeth.
All the best, Gordon Hill
.
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| User: "seviien" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 09:44:26 AM |
|
|
I'm sure that your discussion is very, very interesting and
I'm sure that it is very, very important, but why are you
cross posting it to alt.free.newsservers? What does this
thread have to do with free.newsservers?
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:40:46 -0500, ZpiralZone
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 01:07:28 PM |
|
|
In <f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com>,
ZpiralZone <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion," says
Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I discover
something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe at the
mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew before.' It is a
profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which helps me appreciate God
and makes science even more rewarding for me."
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God, only
Abiogensis"
http://www.newsleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051024/NEWS01/510240315/1002
(http://makeashorterlink.com/?B53F25E5C)
"But Collins said critics are setting up false arguments against one of
the most reliable theories in science. Rejecting evolution means rejecting
the fundamental tenets of biology and other scientific disciplines, he
said.
"'The idea that the theory of evolution is perhaps subject to collapse is
simply not the case,' he said. 'You will not find today a mainstream
biologist or human geneticist who is not absolutely convinced that
Darwin's theory is correct.'"
I betcha don't like *that part of what he said.
One of the great things about science is it works the same for atheists,
Christians, agnostics, Jews, pagans, Muslims, Hindus...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
So much for that "storm of the century" excuse
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A3992495C
NO held hostage by oil corporations,
ANWR demanded as ransom
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J5C92195C
White House balks at spending on US citizens,
needs more billions for Iraq!
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D93595C
(Tell me again how much we spent bailing out the S&Ls?)
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 12:55:16 AM |
|
|
In article
<f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com>,
ZpiralZone <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
Collins accepts evolution as other theories of modern biology. Not every
believer is a conservative fundamentalist.
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
As long as he doesn't allow his religion to cloud his scientific
judgment or ethics, who cares what he believes?
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "byron" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 09:52:03 AM |
|
|
I'm sure that your discussion is very, very interesting and
I'm sure that it is very, very important, but why are you
cross posting it to alt.free.newsservers? What does this
thread have to do with free.newsservers?
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:55:16 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article
<f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com>,
ZpiralZone <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
Collins accepts evolution as other theories of modern biology. Not every
believer is a conservative fundamentalist.
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
As long as he doesn't allow his religion to cloud his scientific
judgment or ethics, who cares what he believes?
.
|
|
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 11:54:19 PM |
|
|
In article <doo2r11r22od84fh24hla1s8fi8ukhmkq4@4ax.com>,
byron <byron@byron.com> wrote:
I'm sure that your discussion is very, very interesting and
I'm sure that it is very, very important, but why are you
cross posting it to alt.free.newsservers? What does this
thread have to do with free.newsservers?
I was not the first one to cross post, but since you ask, I'll remove
your group from all future replies.
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:55:16 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article
<f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com>,
ZpiralZone <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
Collins accepts evolution as other theories of modern biology. Not every
believer is a conservative fundamentalist.
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
As long as he doesn't allow his religion to cloud his scientific
judgment or ethics, who cares what he believes?
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 09:09:22 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:55:16 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article
<f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com>,
ZpiralZone <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
Collins accepts evolution as other theories of modern biology. Not every
believer is a conservative fundamentalist.
I their mind it's the only kind.
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
As long as he doesn't allow his religion to cloud his scientific
judgment or ethics, who cares what he believes?
If he is doing science he leaves his religion out of it completely.
Because he can only use what is already known objectively to expand
knowledge.
Unfortunately many believer scientists don't make it clear when they
are talking to a religious audience that they are talking religion not
science.
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
28 Dec 2005 12:03:10 AM |
|
|
In article <r3m2r19h13g4evu4hgcmspielg0dd9pmvf@4ax.com>,
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:55:16 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article
<f61e0e1e0512260840o5ee14618h6e5b249a24959674@mail.gmail.com>,
ZpiralZone <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
Collins accepts evolution as other theories of modern biology. Not every
believer is a conservative fundamentalist.
I their mind it's the only kind.
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
As long as he doesn't allow his religion to cloud his scientific
judgment or ethics, who cares what he believes?
If he is doing science he leaves his religion out of it completely.
Because he can only use what is already known objectively to expand
knowledge.
The data are what they are. It shouldn't matter whether or not a
believer or a non-believer observe them. It's when the believers try to
read into their conclusions things which are not supported by the facts
that they get into trouble.
Unfortunately many believer scientists don't make it clear when they
are talking to a religious audience that they are talking religion not
science.
The audience, especially if their minds are made up beforehand, also may
filter the science through their god colored glasses. The same applies
to the media.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "satyr" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 11:40:47 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:40:46 -0500, ZpiralZone
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
As long as he uses scientific method and verifiable facts to guide his
research, there is no problem. He will come to the correct scientific
conclusion. His personal beliefs are irrelevant.
Does Mr. Collins subscribe to evolution?
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
27 Dec 2005 10:28:07 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:40:46 -0500, ZpiralZone
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
Stupid ***** jabbers drools more
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: A molecular biologist Francis Collins believes in God |
26 Dec 2005 01:20:08 PM |
|
|
ZpiralZone wrote:
"I find my appreciation of science is greatly enriched by religion,"
says Francis Collins, a molecular biologist. He continues: "When I
discover something about the human genome, I experience a sense of awe
at the mystery of life, and say to myself, 'Wow, only God knew
before.' It is a profoundly beautiful and moving sensation, which
helps me appreciate God and makes science even more rewarding for me."
I imagine, that you guys will want to have him removed as a biologist,
since he broke the golden prime rule of biology; "there is no God,
only Abiogensis"
You don't get it.
Science and religion deal with non-overlapping fields of understanding
in the minds of all except the fundamentalists.
.
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