A No-Win Situation

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Greywolf"
Date:	24 Jun 2005 02:12:20 AM
Object:	A No-Win Situation

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout of
Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot be taken
to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a number of "proofs."
This had no real effect. I then pointed out that if taken literally, it
meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion, murdered every single baby on
the planet by drowning, murdered every single toddler on the planet by
drowning and murdered every single pregnant woman on the planet in a
horrible fashion. This definitely perplexed the fundamentalists. One female,
however, came up with what she thought was a good "out" of this one. She
maintained that just as an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every right to
destroy his (or her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need to do so,
so God has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to do so. I
countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every right to
destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the other hand,
chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He certainly had
every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason he chose. After
all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if you take the story of
Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a mass-murderer. I
don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't worship
mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So get real."
I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but it
turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I
deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good, well-meaning people.
It's too bad religion forces one into this kind of confrontation. All I
ended up doing was stirring up pure, unadulterated hatred towards me and I
don't feel very good about it. One has to be intellectually honest with
oneself. But what a price we atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our
well-founded lack of beliefs!
Greywolf
.

User: ""
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	01 Jul 2005 12:18:26 AM

You think that God reports to you or he is moved
by death as If he does not control it or did not conquer it.
For us death is not the end of the story.
It is the door to another life
Greywolf wrote:

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout of
Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot be taken
to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a number of "proofs."
This had no real effect. I then pointed out that if taken literally, it
meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion, murdered every single baby on
the planet by drowning, murdered every single toddler on the planet by
drowning and murdered every single pregnant woman on the planet in a
horrible fashion. This definitely perplexed the fundamentalists. One female,
however, came up with what she thought was a good "out" of this one. She
maintained that just as an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every right to
destroy his (or her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need to do so,
so God has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to do so. I
countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every right to
destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the other hand,
chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He certainly had
every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason he chose. After
all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if you take the story of
Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a mass-murderer. I
don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't worship
mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but it
turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I
deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good, well-meaning people.
It's too bad religion forces one into this kind of confrontation. All I
ended up doing was stirring up pure, unadulterated hatred towards me and I
don't feel very good about it. One has to be intellectually honest with
oneself. But what a price we atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our
well-founded lack of beliefs!

Greywolf

User: "Phÿltêr"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	25 Jun 2005 06:32:30 AM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> astounded us with:
news:11bmr08gp7eko48@corp.supernews.com:

You wasted your breath, all theists are insane. Treat them with contempt.
Insulting your intelligence is their stock in trade. They might as well be
arguing the shade of pink of the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" for all the good it
does.
--
Phÿltêr
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
.

User: "Ben Goren"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	25 Jun 2005 06:44:44 AM

Phylter wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

You wasted your breath, all theists are insane. Treat them
with contempt. Insulting your intelligence is their stock in
trade. They might as well be arguing the shade of pink of the
"Invisible Pink Unicorn" for all the good it does.

Indeed.
All who have not seen Her Magnificent Horniness (MHHNBS) know that
she is a most Shocking Pink, indeed. There's really no point in
arguing cold, hard facts such as this one.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	26 Jun 2005 06:15:37 PM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote

I deeply hurt some individuals who are basically
good, well-meaning people.

Well meaning?
So the mean well with their clinging to an ignorant, literal
interpretation to a bible story?

It's too bad religion forces one into this kind of confrontation.

Personally, I don't believe it does. It's more of a social reaction
than a religious belief.
"If I don't cling to this stupidity then my God ***** will be
smaller than their's, and I won't be one of the cool crowd."

All I ended up doing was stirring up pure, unadulterated
hatred towards me and I don't feel very good about it.

Hmm. It seems to me that they always hated you, but just didn't
know it until you revealed your position.
It's a lot like how they won't have the slightest issue with
someone right up until the very moment they find out that
they are gay. And then the hate starts pouring out.
.

User: "Llanzlan Klazmon"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 04:03:55 AM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in
news:11bmr08gp7eko48@corp.supernews.com:

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout
of Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot
be taken to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a
number of "proofs." This had no real effect. I then pointed out that
if taken literally, it meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion,
murdered every single baby on the planet by drowning, murdered every
single toddler on the planet by drowning and murdered every single
pregnant woman on the planet in a horrible fashion. This definitely
perplexed the fundamentalists. One female, however, came up with what
she thought was a good "out" of this one. She maintained that just as
an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every right to destroy his (or
her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need to do so, so God
has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to do so. I
countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every right to
destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the other
hand, chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He
certainly had every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason
he chose. After all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if
you take the story of Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into
being a mass-murderer. I don't think you want to go that route. I, for
one, don't worship mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do
so either. So get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars
but it turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief
without resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one
wins here. I deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good,
well-meaning people. It's too bad religion forces one into this kind
of confrontation. All I ended up doing was stirring up pure,
unadulterated hatred towards me and I don't feel very good about it.
One has to be intellectually honest with oneself. But what a price we
atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our well-founded lack of
beliefs!

Greywolf

It will have caused them to think. It will probably gnaw away at them
until the light eventually dawns.
Klazmon.

User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 04:11:53 AM

"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns967FA3607C6CBKlazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in
news:11bmr08gp7eko48@corp.supernews.com:

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout
of Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot
be taken to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a
number of "proofs." This had no real effect. I then pointed out that
if taken literally, it meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion,
murdered every single baby on the planet by drowning, murdered every
single toddler on the planet by drowning and murdered every single
pregnant woman on the planet in a horrible fashion. This definitely
perplexed the fundamentalists. One female, however, came up with what
she thought was a good "out" of this one. She maintained that just as
an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every right to destroy his (or
her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need to do so, so God
has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to do so. I
countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every right to
destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the other
hand, chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He
certainly had every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason
he chose. After all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if
you take the story of Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into
being a mass-murderer. I don't think you want to go that route. I, for
one, don't worship mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do
so either. So get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars
but it turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief
without resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one
wins here. I deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good,
well-meaning people. It's too bad religion forces one into this kind
of confrontation. All I ended up doing was stirring up pure,
unadulterated hatred towards me and I don't feel very good about it.
One has to be intellectually honest with oneself. But what a price we
atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our well-founded lack of
beliefs!

Greywolf

It will have caused them to think. It will probably gnaw away at them
until the light eventually dawns.

Man, causing those people to think really pisses them off.
So it is a good thing to do. ;)
--
rb #2187
.

User: "J Forbes"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 05:46:46 AM

Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:

"Llanzlan Klazmon" <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote in message
news:Xns967FA3607C6CBKlazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6...

-snip-

It will have caused them to think. It will probably gnaw away at them
until the light eventually dawns.

Man, causing those people to think really pisses them off.
So it is a good thing to do. ;)

but don't expect the light to dawn.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.

User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 03:51:27 AM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11bmr08gp7eko48@corp.supernews.com...

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout of
Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot be taken
to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a number of "proofs."
This had no real effect. I then pointed out that if taken literally, it
meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion, murdered every single baby on
the planet by drowning, murdered every single toddler on the planet by
drowning and murdered every single pregnant woman on the planet in a
horrible fashion. This definitely perplexed the fundamentalists. One
female, however, came up with what she thought was a good "out" of this
one. She maintained that just as an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every
right to destroy his (or her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need
to do so, so God has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to
do so. I countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every
right to destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the
other hand, chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He
certainly had every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason he
chose. After all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if you take
the story of Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a
mass-murderer. I don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't
worship mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So
get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but
it turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I

You could have said, "If God were benevolent and omnipotent he wouldn't
have drowned babies." But then they would have come up with
another ludircous appology. You can win an argument with idiots.
<snip>
--
rb #2187
.

User: "atheist@home"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 05:02:29 AM

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:51:27 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11bmr08gp7eko48@corp.supernews.com...

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout of
Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot be taken
to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a number of "proofs."
This had no real effect. I then pointed out that if taken literally, it
meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion, murdered every single baby on
the planet by drowning, murdered every single toddler on the planet by
drowning and murdered every single pregnant woman on the planet in a
horrible fashion. This definitely perplexed the fundamentalists. One
female, however, came up with what she thought was a good "out" of this
one. She maintained that just as an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every
right to destroy his (or her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need
to do so, so God has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to
do so. I countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every
right to destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the
other hand, chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He
certainly had every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason he
chose. After all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if you take
the story of Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a
mass-murderer. I don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't
worship mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So
get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but
it turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I

You could have said, "If God were benevolent and omnipotent he wouldn't
have drowned babies." But then they would have come up with
another ludircous apology.
You can win an argument with idiots.

You can?
Is there a book on the subject?
"Idiot's Guide To Arguing With Idiots" maybe?
Here, I'm going to loan you these but I want them back when you are
finished with them; 't ;-)
atheist@home#1554

<snip>

User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 05:39:46 AM

"atheist@home" <atheist@home.com> wrote in message
news:6gbnb1lj8qgqbjskkncfjogfhv92rq98eo@4ax.com...

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:51:27 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:

<snip>

chose. After all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if you
take
the story of Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a
mass-murderer. I don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't
worship mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So
get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but
it turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here.
I

You could have said, "If God were benevolent and omnipotent he wouldn't
have drowned babies." But then they would have come up with
another ludircous apology.

You can win an argument with idiots.

You can?

Whoops. Typo.

Is there a book on the subject?
"Idiot's Guide To Arguing With Idiots" maybe?

;) Perfect title.

Here, I'm going to loan you these but I want them back when you are
finished with them; 't ;-)

"You can't win an argument with idiots."
Thanks. Here's your 't back again.
But keep them handy.
I'll probably need them again sometime. ;)
--
rb #2187
.

User: "nobody"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 12:13:33 PM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but it
turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I
deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good, well-meaning people.
It's too bad religion forces one into this kind of confrontation. All I
ended up doing was stirring up pure, unadulterated hatred towards me and I
don't feel very good about it. One has to be intellectually honest with
oneself.

Well, from their standpoint, you were actively trying to convert them
by attacking their beliefs. It may sound like good reasoning to you
coming off your mouth but what they are hearing is an attack on their
beliefs and god. It's no different than a Christian going up to a
Muslim and calling Allah a murderer. No matter how irrational
religious beliefs seem to you, they are here to stay and embarking on
a jihad against their beliefs will only make it unpleasant for both
sides to coexist.

But what a price we atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our
well-founded lack of beliefs!

Boo hoo. You'll not pay a "price" if you follow the social norms when
dealing with people. You might think a baby is ugly and it may seem
completely reasonable and honest for you to proclaim that to whoever
you meet but if you have a tiny bit of common sense, you won't do
that, especially to the parents. It doesn't make you dishonest to
double check what you say. Use the same common sense when the subject
is religion. You can politely say you don't believe. I have no problem
saying that I am an atheist if the subject comes up but I won't shove
my lack of belief down anybody's throat so as a consequence I have had
no problems whatsoever even when dealing with extremely devout
believers.
.

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	26 Jun 2005 10:59:12 PM

"nobody" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:setnb1dbrplur9o3qt42e3jgk0vhe0a724@4ax.com...

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:

<snip>

How does abortion help with over-population? Birth control is the
answer to that. Abortion is only useful as a means to end unwanted
pregnancies due to personal reasons. Unless you propose starting a
practice of forced abortions in poor countries - which would be a lot
sillier than forced sterilization, if you need to go that way. Last
time I checked, USA, the hotbed of abortion debates, wasn't threatened
by over-population or famine.

I should have included the word, "help" curtail... Look, I don't like
abortion anymore than you but when bible literalists attack me for being
open-minded about a woman's right to choose and I point out that their God
had no problem with Infanticide, they should'nt get so bent out of shape.
After all, I did not hear any reasonable explanation as to why their God
would willfully and mercilessly murder every infant, toddler and pregnant
women on the planet by drowning other than the "Michelangelo" argument. And
as you saw, that was no valid argument. (That's if you are going to maintain
that God is the personification of "Good"; that God is "Love.")

I used the Noah's
Ark story to point out two things: (1) if you are going to fly in the face
of scientists (who, virtually to a person, reject the story as presented
as
fiction, not only are you basically telling the world that the scientists
are full of *****, but that their "proofs" are lies and willful distortions
of all of the available evidence as well. And (2) if you are opposed to
abortion and want to show me pictures of Jesus tenderly holding (and
shedding a tear or two over) an aborted fetus or something along those
lines
(which *they* didn't do, but others have), then you have to explain why
God
chose to mercilessly destroy infants, toddlers, and pregnant women in his
Holocaust and, apparently, have no remorse about it. You then will have to
explain to me why, in light of Noah's Flood, is abortion, in itself ,
"evil."

They don't need to. Even if you don't believe in god, you can surely
see that had he existed, it would be totally pointless trying to judge
him. Had god existed (or rather, had you believed in his existance),
you could chose to obey him or not, but disapproval of his actions
wouldn't make him magically disappear. There are evil people whose
actions and words contradict in this world but unfortunately, they
don't cease to exist. Moreover, in the case of god, theists have the
additional point that you need not, and likely will not, understand
the grand picture and the benevolence or the need for certain actions
on his part. For these reasons and some more, I find that it's
pointless to attempt to win a "logical" war with theists because no
matter what you say, it will look like (and with good reason) you are
starting with a strawman version of god.

No you don't. Don't claim I'm using a "strawman" argument here. One of the
problems I have with fundies is that you really don't have, as one forum
member put it, "a cohesive description of God." And that helps fundies get
real shifty and try getting us atheists bogged down in semantics. The
Christian God is universally portrayed as the essence of Goodness. I have
asked fundies: if that's the case, how could he have created evil? I have
gone even further. I have asked, " How much more evil can you be than to
create evil."
The fundie response, for the most part, has been non-existent. You guys
don't have the guts to try and answer that one!

I gave them a way "out" by just accepting that the Flood story was just a
story and not literally true. This would, in turn, relieve their God of
being legitimately tagged a "Baby-Killer."

I should point out here that I (Greywolf) was trying to help them save face.
By just accepting that the Biblical Flood story is not literally true, the
offensive "God is a baby-killer" tag disappears.

Well what ended up happening is
that the store where two of the Christians work stopped delivering
groceries
to my home for a fairly long time. (I live in the "boonies" and have no
motor vehicle.) This, despite the fact that the crew over at the
supermarket
knew damn well that I had no other means of obtaining groceries at the
time.
The store's owner claimed I was "abusive" in dealing with his employees.
Shortly after my delivery "privileges" were restored, I chose not to do
business with that store anymore. (I was not about to reward them for
their
callous behavior.) Christians can talk about the "Love" stuff all they
want.
I've experienced their "Love" first-hand and I didn't care for it one bit.

That's your choice. If you alienate people, whether it involves
religion or not, you will have to suffer the consequences. Christians
are no worse or no better in my opinion than others when you confront
them and attack their deeply held convictions.

We simply had a knock-down, drag-out discussion about the Bible that
centered around the question of evil (which is where the abortion/Noah's
Flood stuff came in). It was a free exchange of ideas! And sure, I alienated
them, but I was repulsed by them as well. (What's is so damn hard about
acknowledging an obvious contradiction?) They were definitely hurt (which I
felt bad about later) by my comments. But looking back on the episode, it is
clear to me that they couldn't put up much of a fight, that I had too much
firepower (so to speak) for them and *that* made them angry. So how does a
fundie respond to such a barrage? Well, in this case, you see to it that I
don't get my groceries delivered to me for a while. There! That taught me.
What a bunch of phonies! Like I said, I experienced their brand of Christian
"Love" firsthand and didn't care for it one bit.
Greywolf
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 12:20:06 PM

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:13:33 GMT, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:

Greywolf wasn't attacking anything. It's their own fault if they
insist of telling people what has no relevance or importance in the
real world outside their religion, and neither put up nor shut up.
Once they raise the subject whatever happens is their own fault.

But what a price we atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our
well-founded lack of beliefs!

When anybody says something stupid, it is their own fault.
.

User: "nobody"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	25 Jun 2005 01:09:35 PM

Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Greywolf wasn't attacking anything.

"I, for one, don't worship mass-murderers. I don't think you really
want to do so either. So get real." sounds like it though.

It's their own fault if they
insist of telling people what has no relevance or importance in the
real world outside their religion, and neither put up nor shut up.

From the sounds of it, he kept pushing his views too. Most of the
time, it takes two to lower the bar.

Once they raise the subject whatever happens is their own fault.

It doesn't work that way. One still to main sensibility and civility
*even if* the subject is religion. More so I would say, but that's me.

When anybody says something stupid, it is their own fault.

That it may sound stupid to you doesn't mean you need to engage in
war. Then again, it's your choice to be stupid too. What I don't care
for at all in this business is his last comments: "But what a price we
atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our well-founded lack of
beliefs!". Well, if you are going to attack them and call their god
names and imply they are morons, you need to accept the consequences
and not whine about being persecuted for your lack of beliefs.
Alt.atheism seems to be mostly attracting rabid atheists with a
persecution complex on their high horses as well as rabid theists with
a persecution complex on their high horses. I don't care for either
group, which are a lot more similar than they each would like to
admit.
.

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	25 Jun 2005 08:43:47 PM

"nobody" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:02lqb199q3hoo3o3dvuu7u44cobqc3g9qv@4ax.com...

Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:

<snip>

The clash with those people started out as a discussion about abortion. I,
for one, feel abortion *is* murder and "evil," but that it is also a
necessary evil (to curtail over-population, famine, etc.). I used the Noah's
Ark story to point out two things: (1) if you are going to fly in the face
of scientists (who, virtually to a person, reject the story as presented as
fiction, not only are you basically telling the world that the scientists
are full of *****, but that their "proofs" are lies and willful distortions
of all of the available evidence as well. And (2) if you are opposed to
abortion and want to show me pictures of Jesus tenderly holding (and
shedding a tear or two over) an aborted fetus or something along those lines
(which *they* didn't do, but others have), then you have to explain why God
chose to mercilessly destroy infants, toddlers, and pregnant women in his
Holocaust and, apparently, have no remorse about it. You then will have to
explain to me why, in light of Noah's Flood, is abortion, in itself ,
"evil."
I gave them a way "out" by just accepting that the Flood story was just a
story and not literally true. This would, in turn, relieve their God of
being legitimately tagged a "Baby-Killer." Well what ended up happening is
that the store where two of the Christians work stopped delivering groceries
to my home for a fairly long time. (I live in the "boonies" and have no
motor vehicle.) This, despite the fact that the crew over at the supermarket
knew damn well that I had no other means of obtaining groceries at the time.
The store's owner claimed I was "abusive" in dealing with his employees.
Shortly after my delivery "privileges" were restored, I chose not to do
business with that store anymore. (I was not about to reward them for their
callous behavior.) Christians can talk about the "Love" stuff all they want.
I've experienced their "Love" first-hand and I didn't care for it one bit.
Greywolf
.

User: "nobody"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	26 Jun 2005 12:47:53 PM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:

"nobody" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
The clash with those people started out as a discussion about abortion. I,
for one, feel abortion *is* murder and "evil," but that it is also a
necessary evil (to curtail over-population, famine, etc.).

I used the Noah's
Ark story to point out two things: (1) if you are going to fly in the face
of scientists (who, virtually to a person, reject the story as presented as
fiction, not only are you basically telling the world that the scientists
are full of *****, but that their "proofs" are lies and willful distortions
of all of the available evidence as well. And (2) if you are opposed to
abortion and want to show me pictures of Jesus tenderly holding (and
shedding a tear or two over) an aborted fetus or something along those lines
(which *they* didn't do, but others have), then you have to explain why God
chose to mercilessly destroy infants, toddlers, and pregnant women in his
Holocaust and, apparently, have no remorse about it. You then will have to
explain to me why, in light of Noah's Flood, is abortion, in itself ,
"evil."

I gave them a way "out" by just accepting that the Flood story was just a
story and not literally true. This would, in turn, relieve their God of
being legitimately tagged a "Baby-Killer." Well what ended up happening is
that the store where two of the Christians work stopped delivering groceries
to my home for a fairly long time. (I live in the "boonies" and have no
motor vehicle.) This, despite the fact that the crew over at the supermarket
knew damn well that I had no other means of obtaining groceries at the time.
The store's owner claimed I was "abusive" in dealing with his employees.
Shortly after my delivery "privileges" were restored, I chose not to do
business with that store anymore. (I was not about to reward them for their
callous behavior.) Christians can talk about the "Love" stuff all they want.
I've experienced their "Love" first-hand and I didn't care for it one bit.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	25 Jun 2005 01:16:11 PM

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:09:35 GMT, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:

Greywolf wasn't attacking anything.

"I, for one, don't worship mass-murderers. I don't think you really
want to do so either. So get real." sounds like it though.

Why did you snip the difference between an attack and a repsonse?

It's their own fault if they
insist of telling people what has no relevance or importance in the
real world outside their religion, and neither put up nor shut up.

From the sounds of it, he kept pushing his views too. Most of the
time, it takes two to lower the bar.

Only in the deluded imagfiination of somebody whop can't grasp the
difference with a response.

Once they raise the subject whatever happens is their own fault.

It doesn't work that way. One still to main sensibility and civility
*even if* the subject is religion. More so I would say, but that's me.

Yes it does.
We don't have to put up with their ceaseless stupidity and rudeness..

When anybody says something stupid, it is their own fault.

I don't. I do however treat them the way they initially treat us.
This newsgroup was set up by atheists to discuss atheist issues.
Of which the sheer bigotry, nastiness and stupidity of theists on and
off the net is a major one.

Alt.atheism seems to be mostly attracting rabid atheists with a
persecution complex on their high horses as well as rabid theists with
a persecution complex on their high horses. I don't care for either
group, which are a lot more similar than they each would like to
admit.

The amateur-psychologising of a strawman to derive an even nastier
one.
.

User: "John Popelish"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 02:45:31 AM

Greywolf wrote:
(snip)

But you can't escape the fact that if you take the story of
Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a mass-murderer. I
don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't worship
mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but it
turned out nasty.

(snip)
How are going to learn from your experience if you only give us the
setup, and not the outcome?
.

User: "Mushinronsha"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	25 Jun 2005 12:14:44 AM

Greywolf wrote:

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout of
Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot be taken
to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a number of "proofs."
This had no real effect. I then pointed out that if taken literally, it
meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion, murdered every single baby on
the planet by drowning, murdered every single toddler on the planet by
drowning and murdered every single pregnant woman on the planet in a
horrible fashion. This definitely perplexed the fundamentalists. One female,
however, came up with what she thought was a good "out" of this one. She
maintained that just as an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every right to
destroy his (or her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need to do so,
so God has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to do so. I
countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every right to
destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the other hand,
chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He certainly had
every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason he chose. After
all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if you take the story of
Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a mass-murderer. I
don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't worship
mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but it
turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I
deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good, well-meaning people.
It's too bad religion forces one into this kind of confrontation. All I
ended up doing was stirring up pure, unadulterated hatred towards me and I
don't feel very good about it. One has to be intellectually honest with
oneself. But what a price we atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our
well-founded lack of beliefs!

Greywolf

I was thinking about how a resourceful xian would slip out of the "killing
babies" argument, and it struck me that they might claim that since the all
powerful almighty knew he would be knocking off his imperfect creations, he
might smite them with infertility for a few years prior to hitting the planet
with his deity sized super soaker. That way, there are no toddlers, babes in
arms, or pregnant women when he imposes the world-wide hot tub. That only
counts for people persons, though. Animal types still need to have young-uns on
hand in order to fill the magic Ark with zoological wonder.
.

User: "Vic Sagerquist"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 03:20:51 AM

On 23 Jun 2005, Greywolf dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars
but it turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief
without resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one
wins here. I deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good,
well-meaning people. It's too bad religion forces one into this kind
of confrontation. All I ended up doing was stirring up pure,
unadulterated hatred towards me and I don't feel very good about it.
One has to be intellectually honest with oneself. But what a price we
atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our well-founded lack of
beliefs!

Don't feel sorry for them. They were knocking at your door fully
intending to destroy your life. Hatred toward you was their only
defense. Sad, isn't it?
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
Lovingly plonked by Roger Pearse
______________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't
think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and
parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face
white and praying to a rock."
[Howard Stern]
.

User: "atheist@home"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 04:47:11 AM

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:12:20 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical account of
Noah's Ark.

"Bible thumpers?"
Oops ;-)
<snip>

You can only be forced into that kind of thing if you agree to it.
I'm curious as to why you feel a need to defend your lack of belief.
Personally I have very seldom had a problem with mine even though all
my Christian and Muslim friends know I'm an atheist.
I have had some good conversations with them about religion however.
It doesn't really hurt to apoligize.
Not for your lack of belief but for the unintentional offense.
If you meant to ofend in the heat of the moment it doesn't hurt to
apoligize for that either.
And it's too bad those involved can't read what you wrote above.
Damned decent in my opinion.
atheist@home#1554

Greywolf

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 07:47:10 AM

"atheist@home" <atheist@home.com> wrote in message
news:vd8nb15vi2lmchu9k2t44sbaib490o6dmc@4ax.com...

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:12:20 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical account of
Noah's Ark.

"Bible thumpers?"
Oops ;-)

<snip>

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but
it
turned out nasty. I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I
deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good, well-meaning people.
It's too bad religion forces one into this kind of confrontation. All I
ended up doing was stirring up pure, unadulterated hatred towards me and I
don't feel very good about it. One has to be intellectually honest with
oneself. But what a price we atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our
well-founded lack of beliefs!

Thanks for the kind words.
Apologies won't work with these people. They are convinced I'm evil, satanic
or possessed. Or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm angry with the
Christian fundamentalists in my neck-of-the-woods because of the reaction
and "punishment" I've received at the hands of these people. I didn't write
the damm bible and damn if I'm going to swallow that hooey. The Bible is a
grand book. It is filled with great wisdom, fascinating history and
wonderful stories. It's not a science text-book or anything of the sort.
These goofs abuse and misuse the bible in a way that leaves them open to all
kinds of logical criticism and they don't like it one bit. Yet they refuse
to see the folly of their arguments. What is one to do?
Oh, by the way, one of the end results of my comments regarding the Noaich
Flood is that the grocery store where two of the fundamentalist Christians
work stopped delivering groceries to my home for a while. The store owner
claimed I was "abusive" and ceased grocery delivery. This, despite the fact
that the crew at the supermarket knew I had no other means of obtaining
groceries at the time. (I do not possess a motor vehicle and live seven
miles away [in the boonies] from the store.) I, in turn, have since stopped
doing business with there. I often told the store personnel that, " If
you're going to call yourself a Christian, act like one!" Apparently they
decided to do just that. (Ahhh... there I go again. Well I'm glad your
Christain (and Islamic) friends are more open-minded and tolerant of
different viewpoints. There's little hope for that around here for me.

Greywolf

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	24 Jun 2005 12:32:04 PM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11bnekop0rt8ie3@corp.supernews.com...
snp

Thanks for the kind words.

Apologies won't work with these people. They are convinced I'm evil,

satanic

or possessed. Or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm angry with the
Christian fundamentalists in my neck-of-the-woods because of the reaction
and "punishment" I've received at the hands of these people. I didn't

write

the damm bible and damn if I'm going to swallow that hooey. The Bible is a
grand book. It is filled with great wisdom, fascinating history and
wonderful stories. It's not a science text-book or anything of the sort.
These goofs abuse and misuse the bible in a way that leaves them open to

all

kinds of logical criticism and they don't like it one bit. Yet they refuse
to see the folly of their arguments. What is one to do?

Oh, by the way, one of the end results of my comments regarding the Noaich
Flood is that the grocery store where two of the fundamentalist Christians
work stopped delivering groceries to my home for a while. The store owner
claimed I was "abusive" and ceased grocery delivery. This, despite the

fact

that the crew at the supermarket knew I had no other means of obtaining
groceries at the time. (I do not possess a motor vehicle and live seven
miles away [in the boonies] from the store.) I, in turn, have since

stopped

doing business with there. I often told the store personnel that, " If
you're going to call yourself a Christian, act like one!" Apparently they
decided to do just that. (Ahhh... there I go again. Well I'm glad your
Christain (and Islamic) friends are more open-minded and tolerant of
different viewpoints. There's little hope for that around here for me.

Damn, that's awful. What state do you live in? These people sound terrible
:(
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
.

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	26 Jun 2005 11:31:06 PM

"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:3i2cr3FjghudU1@individual.net...

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11bnekop0rt8ie3@corp.supernews.com...

snp

Apologies won't work with these people. They are convinced I'm evil,

satanic

write

the damm bible and damn if I'm going to swallow that hooey. The Bible is
a
grand book. It is filled with great wisdom, fascinating history and
wonderful stories. It's not a science text-book or anything of the sort.
These goofs abuse and misuse the bible in a way that leaves them open to

all

kinds of logical criticism and they don't like it one bit. Yet they
refuse
to see the folly of their arguments. What is one to do?

Oh, by the way, one of the end results of my comments regarding the
Noaich
Flood is that the grocery store where two of the fundamentalist
Christians
work stopped delivering groceries to my home for a while. The store owner
claimed I was "abusive" and ceased grocery delivery. This, despite the

fact

stopped

Damn, that's awful. What state do you live in? These people sound
terrible
:(
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist

Wisconsin. But I should hasten to add that these people felt extremely
threatened by me because it got around that I was planning to open up an
atheist website. Most of the fundies around here let bygones be bygones. In
my case, though, I riled a fundamentalist preacher (even challenged him to
a public debate) and tore into certain "holier-than-thou's" around here for
not even bothering to bring me water, batteries or anything else in the way
of aid after the fire.

And here's a good one: The only person who immediately came to my aid (apart
from the offerings from the Red Cross and some clothes from my mail-carrier
[herself a fundie]) was a member of the aforementioned precher's
congregation. She kept telling me that the reason she brought me all the
things she did (and there were a lot of things she brought me) was because,
"The Lord" moved her to do it and because "You (meaning me) love God." What
was I to say? What I did do was decide, right then and there, that I was
going to reward her for her good deed and express a measure of gratitude. I
decided that when the opportunity arose I would buy her a fancy Bible, sign
it and tell her, "Here, the Lord moved me to give this to you." (Hell, that
doesn't hurt.) The response to that idea, however, was unreal. Her "friends"
told her not to accept the bible if presented; that I was only attempting to
"mock" her religion, or, that I was attempting to "ridicule" her faith. I
told that damn pastor of her's that that was the furthest thing from my
mind! I also told him he *knew" that and that he should teach a little more
tolerance for other people's opinions in his church. (What a *****!) I was
told to give her a bouquet of flowers instead. I ended up actually getting
her nothing and haven't seen her since.
Greywolf
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	30 Jun 2005 11:50:19 PM

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:47:10 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:

"atheist@home" <atheist@home.com> wrote in message
news:vd8nb15vi2lmchu9k2t44sbaib490o6dmc@4ax.com...

[]

And that pisses the morons off.

The Bible is a
grand book. It is filled with great wisdom, fascinating history and
wonderful stories.

The Bible is filled with nothing but; atrocity, *****, hatred,
injustice, murder, rapine, cruelty, putrid fantasies and is less
'historical' than 'Gone with the wind.'

It's not a science text-book or anything of the sort.
These goofs abuse and misuse the bible in a way that leaves them open to all
kinds of logical criticism and they don't like it one bit. Yet they refuse
to see the folly of their arguments. What is one to do?

Oh, by the way, one of the end results of my comments regarding the Noaich
Flood is that the grocery store where two of the fundamentalist Christians
work stopped delivering groceries to my home for a while. The store owner
claimed I was "abusive" and ceased grocery delivery. This, despite the fact
that the crew at the supermarket knew I had no other means of obtaining
groceries at the time. (I do not possess a motor vehicle and live seven
miles away [in the boonies] from the store.) I, in turn, have since stopped
doing business with there. I often told the store personnel that, " If
you're going to call yourself a Christian, act like one!" Apparently they
decided to do just that.

And that they did.

(Ahhh... there I go again. Well I'm glad your
Christain (and Islamic) friends are more open-minded and tolerant of
different viewpoints. There's little hope for that around here for me.

Greywolf

--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "Katt"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	01 Jul 2005 12:00:14 AM

The Bible is a
grand book. It is filled with great wisdom, fascinating history and
wonderful stories.

The Bible is filled with nothing but; atrocity, *****, hatred,
injustice, murder, rapine, cruelty, putrid fantasies and is less
'historical' than 'Gone with the wind.'

User: "Greywolf"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	01 Jul 2005 01:07:41 AM

"Katt" <workcomputer@dfhu.net> wrote in message
news:iI%we.14916$Ar5.7450@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

The Bible is a
grand book. It is filled with great wisdom, fascinating history and
wonderful stories.

The Bible is filled with nothing but; atrocity, *****, hatred,
injustice, murder, rapine, cruelty, putrid fantasies and is less
'historical' than 'Gone with the wind.'

And, by the way, what is all this ridiculous ***** about 'great
wisdom'...?!? Society gives this pile of Bronze-Age excrement *such an
easy fucking ride*...! 'Wisdom'? *******!! It doesn't even contain
*good recipes*, for *****'s sake...! 'Wonderful stories'?!? *Rubbish*!!
Have you ever even *tried* to read the shatteringly inane and incoherent
bollocks that constitutes the 'stories' of -- to take two random
examples -- 'Jephthah' or 'Job'...?

Katt.

Now. Now. You know it contains more than that. And yes, there is "wisdom"
to be found there too. (Don't you remember that part in the "Sermon on the
Mount" (Mt. 6:5-6) where Jesus tells his followers to pray in "secret" and
not in Public Schools? I think he imparted a lot of wisdom there, don't
you?

As for Jephtah: wasn't that the dude who had to offer up his only
daughter to God as a human sacrifice in order to pay God back for a
military victory over he won over some people whose land his tribe stole?
Yeah, I remember that part in Judges all right, because it was the only part
I could read without going into seizures.
Greywolf
.

User: "Katt"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	01 Jul 2005 01:11:11 AM

"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11c95qakt966n7f@corp.supernews.com...

Now. Now. You know it contains more than that. And yes, there is "wisdom"
to be found there too. (Don't you remember that part in the "Sermon on the
Mount" (Mt. 6:5-6) where Jesus tells his followers to pray in "secret" and
not in Public Schools? I think he imparted a lot of wisdom there, don't
you?

Look, you can either begin to respect your readers to the extent that you
start controlling where and how the '>' signs appear in your posts, or I can
killfile you. I'll cope either way, believe me.
Katt.
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	30 Jun 2005 11:43:08 PM

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:12:20 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:

I had a run-in with several bible-thumpers about the biblical accout of
Noah's Ark. I tried pointing out that biblical Deluge story cannot be taken
to be literally true. And I supplied my audience with a number of "proofs."
This had no real effect. I then pointed out that if taken literally, it
meant that God, in his wisdom and compassion, murdered every single baby on
the planet by drowning, murdered every single toddler on the planet by
drowning and murdered every single pregnant woman on the planet in a
horrible fashion. This definitely perplexed the fundamentalists. One female,
however, came up with what she thought was a good "out" of this one. She
maintained that just as an artist (such as Michelangelo) has every right to
destroy his (or her) creation if the artist/creator feels the need to do so,
so God has every right to destroy his creation if he chooses to do so. I
countered with this: "A Michelangelo, does indeed, have every right to
destroy his inanimate clay or marble creation. Your God, on the other hand,
chose to willfully and mercilessly destroyed children. He certainly had
every right to do so, and for whatever mysterious reason he chose. After
all, he's God. But you can't escape the fact that if you take the story of
Noah's Flood literally, you force your God into being a mass-murderer. I
don't think you want to go that route. I, for one, don't worship
mass-murderers. I don't think you really want to do so either. So get real."

I did not expect the reaction I got. I won't go into the particulars but it
turned out nasty.

Of course it got nasty. It is all emotion on the female fundy's part
and she did not like it being demonstrated in public all others can go
to hell for the 'loving' eternal torture session and she didn't give a
damn. Nasty excuses for human beings.

I feel bad about what I said. But how is an
atheist/agnostic supposed to defend his (or her) lack of belief

You've got nothing to 'defend.' You lack belief. Period.

without
resorting to such, as it turned out, hurtful tactics. No one wins here. I
deeply hurt some individuals who are basically good, well-meaning people.
It's too bad religion forces one into this kind of confrontation. All I
ended up doing was stirring up pure, unadulterated hatred towards me and I
don't feel very good about it. One has to be intellectually honest with
oneself. But what a price we atheists/agnostics are forced to pay for our
well-founded lack of beliefs!

It's called having honesty and ethics.

Greywolf

User: ""
Title: Re: A No-Win Situation	26 Jun 2005 11:37:29 PM

Your attempt was very badly made. You tried to appeal to facts, but
religious belief is NOT about facts. I wish more atheists would
understand that addressing Christians requires you to talk about their
emotional appeal, not scientific facts. You need to deconvert someone
to an objective, scientific perspective BEFORE getting into any
scientific fact.
We got into this on our show "Witnessing Nonbelief part 2". We
discussed many different examples and how to deal with them on an
emotional standpoint. I recommend you listen to it and try to apply
some of these principles when you witness, and you should get a
considerably better reception.
Hellbound Alleee
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Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
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