| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"C.J.W." |
| Date: |
15 Feb 2005 05:36:28 PM |
| Object: |
A Parable, of Civilization |
A parable, on how to ascertain what may not be plain.
Once upon a time there was a group of intelligent people who were cut off
from the accumulation of human knowledge. So they were left behind the
technological advances of human civilization, as sometimes happens. They
generally lived together well enough, decently, as such is not an issue of
technology.
Then one day, a man saw a plane fly over their jungle and brought back the
story to the village. Because he was known to be trustworthy the people
believed his story, the story of such a strange phenomena excited them and
inspired a search for answers. Eventually a man and a woman in the community
had their role in the community come to be trying to figure out what it had
been, among other things.
The man said, "We know natural things like birds, trees and flowers. This is
all we observe. This is all we can test. So a natural explanation is all we
can allow ourselves. So I think it was just a type of bird, like what we
know."
"I do not believe that was a type of bird." replied the woman. "We can also
observe that we can make things. If there was a race of humans or other
beings that had a sort of intelligence similar to our own then there is no
telling what they could make. I think that was something made by a
civilization far, far in advance of our own."
"Well, I saw a bird fly the other day. So it obviously doesn't take any
technology to fly."
"Are you sure?" replied the woman.
"Hmmm, what is technology, anyway?"
"It's just the practical application of knowledge."
Then the man said, "Oh....hmmm, this is probably going to keep us thinking
for a while."
The woman replied, "Yes....thinking, well, that will probably keep us out of
trouble."
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 05:40:09 PM |
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C.J.W. wrote:
A parable, on how to ascertain what may not be plain.
Once upon a time there was a group of intelligent people who were cut
off
from the accumulation of human knowledge. So they were left behind
the
technological advances of human civilization, as sometimes happens.
They
generally lived together well enough, decently, as such is not an
issue of
technology.
Then one day, a man saw a plane fly over their jungle and brought
back the
story to the village. Because he was known to be trustworthy the
people
believed his story, the story of such a strange phenomena excited
them and
inspired a search for answers. Eventually a man and a woman in the
community
had their role in the community come to be trying to figure out what
it had
been, among other things.
The man said, "We know natural things like birds, trees and flowers.
This is
all we observe. This is all we can test. So a natural explanation is
all we
can allow ourselves. So I think it was just a type of bird, like what
we
know."
"I do not believe that was a type of bird." replied the woman. "We
can also
observe that we can make things. If there was a race of humans or
other
beings that had a sort of intelligence similar to our own then there
is no
telling what they could make. I think that was something made by a
civilization far, far in advance of our own."
"Well, I saw a bird fly the other day. So it obviously doesn't take
any
technology to fly."
"Are you sure?" replied the woman.
"Hmmm, what is technology, anyway?"
"It's just the practical application of knowledge."
Then the man said, "Oh....hmmm, this is probably going to keep us
thinking
for a while."
The woman replied, "Yes....thinking, well, that will probably keep us
out of
trouble."
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing,
they
began to accumulate knowledge.
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
OOPS! the type of intelligent beings that make airplanes can be
studied, whereas the proposed type of intelligent beings that
supposedly make living matter cannot.
false analogy.
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| User: "News Subsystem" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 06:45:08 PM |
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"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1108510809.297651.321200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
C.J.W. wrote:
<snip>
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
OOPS! the type of intelligent beings that make airplanes can be
studied, whereas the proposed type of intelligent beings that
supposedly make living matter cannot.
false analogy.
It seems typical that evolutionists cannot see the artifacts of intelligence
as such and instead they personalize things. You will run into problems
when searching for any forms of extraterrestrial intelligence. That is one
instance where you cannot study the beings per se, yet it is clear that you
can indeed detect the artifacts of intelligence in various ways. There are
other instances where the artifacts of intelligence are studied without
focusing on the type of beings that created them.
Yet let us grant your context, in such a context does one have to study you
personally to see the text you just wrote as a work of intelligent selection
rather than natural "selection"? How does Nature "select" something? Why
do you have the memes that you do and why do you feel that "your" supposed
selections had anything to do with them? Living matter? What is life and
the distinction between the animate and inanimate? Note that it was a
rather short time ago that evolutionists sought to blur that distinction.
--W
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| User: "Dana Tweedy" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 07:00:12 PM |
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"News Subsystem" <news@news.astraweb.com> wrote in message
news:421296c3$0$12927$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
snipping
Yet let us grant your context, in such a context does one have to study
you personally to see the text you just wrote as a work of intelligent
selection rather than natural "selection"? How does Nature "select"
something?
In the same way a net selects fish too large to fit through the weave.
Why do you have the memes that you do and why do you feel that "your"
supposed selections had anything to do with them?
This appears to be gibberish. Can you restate this in an understandible
way?
Living matter? What is life and the distinction between the animate and
inanimate?
Largely, metabolic processes.
Note that it was a rather short time ago that evolutionists sought to blur
that distinction.
Do you really think there is a clear distinction? Is a virus alive or not?
DJT
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| User: "Secular Fundamentalist" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 02:47:44 AM |
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News Subsystem wrote:
It seems typical that evolutionists cannot see the artifacts of intelligence
as such and instead they personalize things.
Why is it that the opponents of evolution cannot state their case
without telling a pack of lies?
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
If God had meant us to believe in him, he wouldn't have given us brains.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 07:59:44 AM |
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:47:44 +0000, Secular Fundamentalist
<moc.turtle@eltrut.com> wrote:
News Subsystem wrote:
It seems typical that evolutionists cannot see the artifacts of intelligence
as such and instead they personalize things.
Why is it that the opponents of evolution cannot state their case
without telling a pack of lies?
Because they don't even have a case and all they've got are a pack of
lies.
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| User: "Cpgnition" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 08:57:03 AM |
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The same civilization saw an apple fall from a tree. "What moved that
apple?" they asked.
The man said "I'm not sure, everything seems to move towards the
ground. There must be a natural explanation for it."
The woman said "Nonsense, we observe that we can move things, and that
things don't move on their own, so there must be some advanced beings
that we cannot see moving it!"
And through practical application of knowledge they discovered the
"wind spirits".
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| User: "Victor Eijkhout" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
17 Feb 2005 08:39:08 AM |
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Cpgnition <cpgnition@gmail.com> wrote:
The same civilization saw an apple fall from a tree. "What moved that
apple?" they asked.
The man said "I'm not sure, everything seems to move towards the
ground. There must be a natural explanation for it."
The woman said "Nonsense, we observe that we can move things, and that
things don't move on their own, so there must be some advanced beings
that we cannot see moving it!"
And through practical application of knowledge they discovered the
"wind spirits".
Brilliant. Reductio ad absurdum.
V.
--
email: lastname at cs utk edu
homepage: www cs utk edu tilde lastname
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 06:54:07 PM |
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News Subsystem wrote:
"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1108510809.297651.321200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
C.J.W. wrote:
<snip>
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
OOPS! the type of intelligent beings that make airplanes can be
studied, whereas the proposed type of intelligent beings that
supposedly make living matter cannot.
false analogy.
<snip>
There are
other instances where the artifacts of intelligence are studied
without
focusing on the type of beings that created them.
name them
<snip>
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 05:33:03 PM |
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News Subsystem wrote:
"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1108510809.297651.321200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
C.J.W. wrote:
<snip>
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
OOPS! the type of intelligent beings that make airplanes can be
studied, whereas the proposed type of intelligent beings that
supposedly make living matter cannot.
false analogy.
It seems typical that evolutionists cannot see the artifacts of
intelligence
as such and instead they personalize things.
We don't se the same things you do in Rorschach inkblots, either.
You will run into problems
when searching for any forms of extraterrestrial intelligence.
Yeah, if it manifests as apparently random expressions of natural law.
"Look, erosion! Must some intelligent aliens around here..."
That is one
instance where you cannot study the beings per se, yet it is clear
that you
can indeed detect the artifacts of intelligence in various ways.
There are
other instances where the artifacts of intelligence are studied
without
focusing on the type of beings that created them.
And apparently other times when folks see them when they're not there.
Do you see faces in clouds? It's *normal to do so; the human brain is
hardwired to see faces. But that doesn't mean they're there.
Yet let us grant your context, in such a context does one have to
study you
personally to see the text you just wrote as a work of intelligent
selection
rather than natural "selection"? How does Nature "select" something?
Slow food get eaten. Is that too hard for you too understand? Of course
it's more complicated than that, but you should start slow and work up.
Why
do you have the memes that you do and why do you feel that "your"
supposed
selections had anything to do with them?
[...]
Living matter? What is life and
the distinction between the animate and inanimate?
Organization.
Note that it was a
rather short time ago that evolutionists sought to blur that
distinction.
When we start insisting it *wasn't a fuzzy boundary? I must have missed
the memo.
--W
Hey, CJW / News Subsystem, dontcha think it's kind of pathetic that you
answer yourself like this in a thread? If anyone doubts, just Google
"me scientist" AND ("C.J.W." OR "News Subsystem")
Kermit
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| User: "Walter Bushell" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 09:04:21 PM |
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In article <1108596783.580429.78610@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:
<snip>
Slow food get eaten. Is that too hard for you too understand? Of course
it's more complicated than that, but you should start slow and work up.
<snip>
Slow food is better than fast food. Let it cook all day.
--
Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 07:06:56 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:45:08 -0500, "News Subsystem"
<news@news.astraweb.com> wrote:
"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1108510809.297651.321200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
C.J.W. wrote:
<snip>
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
OOPS! the type of intelligent beings that make airplanes can be
studied, whereas the proposed type of intelligent beings that
supposedly make living matter cannot.
false analogy.
It seems typical that evolutionists cannot see the artifacts of intelligence
as such and instead they personalize things. You will run into problems
when searching for any forms of extraterrestrial intelligence. That is one
instance where you cannot study the beings per se, yet it is clear that you
can indeed detect the artifacts of intelligence in various ways. There are
other instances where the artifacts of intelligence are studied without
focusing on the type of beings that created them.
which, of course, is nonsense. since intelligence ALWAYS is connected
with matter and natural forces, and since intelligence is ALWAYS
expressed through natural laws, the ID folks are barking up the wrong
tree. unless, of course, they think god is a creation of the natural
laws of the universe.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
19 Feb 2005 05:30:53 AM |
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C.J.W. wrote:
A parable, on how to ascertain what may not be plain.
Once upon a time there was a group of intelligent people who were cut off
from the accumulation of human knowledge. So they were left behind the
technological advances of human civilization, as sometimes happens. They
generally lived together well enough, decently, as such is not an issue of
technology.
Then one day, a man saw a plane fly over their jungle and brought back the
story to the village. Because he was known to be trustworthy the people
believed his story, the story of such a strange phenomena excited them and
inspired a search for answers. Eventually a man and a woman in the community
had their role in the community come to be trying to figure out what it had
been, among other things.
The man said, "We know natural things like birds, trees and flowers. This is
all we observe. This is all we can test. So a natural explanation is all we
can allow ourselves. So I think it was just a type of bird, like what we
know."
"I do not believe that was a type of bird." replied the woman. "We can also
observe that we can make things. If there was a race of humans or other
beings that had a sort of intelligence similar to our own then there is no
telling what they could make. I think that was something made by a
civilization far, far in advance of our own."
"Well, I saw a bird fly the other day. So it obviously doesn't take any
technology to fly."
"Are you sure?" replied the woman.
"Hmmm, what is technology, anyway?"
"It's just the practical application of knowledge."
Then the man said, "Oh....hmmm, this is probably going to keep us thinking
for a while."
The woman replied, "Yes....thinking, well, that will probably keep us out of
trouble."
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
a lot of people said a lot of dumb things. this story is fiction. It
is not moralistic ( a little sappy maybe) but over all I would take this
incomplete story over a david ford tale in a heartbeat. It is rather a
nice story. and It is just that: a story.
josephus
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 10:44:26 AM |
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In our last episode <Mu2dndCkW6ZoG4_fRVn-sA@comcast.com>, C.J.W. lumbered
into the room and mumbled:
Once upon a time there was a group of intelligent people who were cut off
from the accumulation of human knowledge.
Ah, talking about home are ya?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 06:18:03 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:36:28 -0500, "C.J.W." <mynym2003@yahoo.com>
wrote:
The man said, "We know natural things like birds, trees and flowers. This is
all we observe. This is all we can test. So a natural explanation is all we
can allow ourselves. So I think it was just a type of bird, like what we
know."
"I do not believe that was a type of bird." replied the woman. "We can also
observe that we can make things. If there was a race of humans or other
beings that had a sort of intelligence similar to our own then there is no
telling what they could make. I think that was something made by a
civilization far, far in advance of our own."
CJW doesn't realize, of course, that intelligent design carries within
its own assumptions the fatal flaw in its argument.
first, no scientist ever said that, because the only thing we SEE are
natural objects, the only explanations we can allow ourselves are
natural ones.
creationists re-write history, and don't realize that NON-natural
explanations USED to be the way humans thought about the world.
demons, ghosts, spirits, etc. were invoked as causative agents. so the
supernatural WAS tried. will CJW admit this? nope. it would destroy
his argument.
and the reason we have no supernatural explanations is NOT because we
see natural things. it's because supernatural explanations NEVER
worked. not once. not a single time. ever.
but CJW thinks that, because he's got a religious belief, we should go
back to a failed concept of nature. he thinks we should invoke demons
and ghosts.
after all, if we dont, his religion is wrong. and he can't have THAT.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 03:57:18 AM |
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:36:28 -0500, "C.J.W." <mynym2003@yahoo.com>
wrote:
A parable, on how to ascertain what may not be plain.
Once upon a time there was a group of intelligent people who were cut off
from the accumulation of human knowledge. So they were left behind the
technological advances of human civilization, as sometimes happens. They
generally lived together well enough, decently, as such is not an issue of
technology.
Whether this particular society stagnates or advances on its own will
of course depend on the ethos of the society. Assuming an intelligent
group they will be less likely to fall to the prey (or is that pray?)
or dictats of a religious ruling class preventing progress on the
grounds that 'god will provide' or 'why bother in this brief life when
we will have an eternity in heaven, we are supposed to suffer anyway'.
=
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Augray" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 01:48:51 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:36:28 -0500, "C.J.W." <mynym2003@yahoo.com> wrote
in news:<Mu2dndCkW6ZoG4_fRVn-sA@comcast.com>:
A parable, on how to ascertain what may not be plain.
Once upon a time there was a group of intelligent people who were cut off
from the accumulation of human knowledge. So they were left behind the
technological advances of human civilization, as sometimes happens.
When?
They
generally lived together well enough, decently, as such is not an issue of
technology.
Then one day, a man saw a plane fly over their jungle and brought back the
story to the village. Because he was known to be trustworthy the people
believed his story, the story of such a strange phenomena excited them and
inspired a search for answers. Eventually a man and a woman in the community
had their role in the community come to be trying to figure out what it had
been, among other things.
The man said, "We know natural things like birds, trees and flowers. This is
all we observe. This is all we can test. So a natural explanation is all we
can allow ourselves. So I think it was just a type of bird, like what we
know."
But then, the singular observation of the plane is untestable.
"I do not believe that was a type of bird." replied the woman.
Why? The bit that follows doesn't eliminate the possibility.
"We can also
observe that we can make things. If there was a race of humans or other
beings that had a sort of intelligence similar to our own then there is no
telling what they could make. I think that was something made by a
civilization far, far in advance of our own."
But that doesn't tell us anything about planes, does it? It doesn't even
tell us if her speculation is correct.
"Well, I saw a bird fly the other day. So it obviously doesn't take any
technology to fly."
"Are you sure?" replied the woman.
"Hmmm, what is technology, anyway?"
"It's just the practical application of knowledge."
The woman has no idea what she's talking about. Using this definition,
one can claim that looking for shelter for the night when the sun starts
to sink towards the horizon is technology.
Then the man said, "Oh....hmmm, this is probably going to keep us thinking
for a while."
The woman replied, "Yes....thinking, well, that will probably keep us out of
trouble."
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
What knowledge? They certainly didn't accumulate any knowledge about
planes. Are you saying that they hadn't been accumulating knowledge
before this point?
http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/02/what-some-try-to-see-as-plain-may-not.html
--W
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 06:59:49 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, "C.J.W." <mynym2003@yahoo.com> wrote:
A parable, on how to ascertain what may not be plain.
Have you been seeing God fly across the sky lately?
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 05:49:32 PM |
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on 15 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, C.J.W. dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
[...]
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
......and the more they accumulated the less they thought any gods were
involved.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
______________
Why is it that most of the people who are against abortion are the kind of
people you wouldn't want to ***** in the first place?
--George Carlin
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| User: "News Subsystem" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 06:47:46 PM |
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"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95FEA12D0FCADvicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, C.J.W. dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
[...]
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
.....and the more they accumulated the less they thought any gods were
involved.
The more knowledge they accumulated the more they knew that they were trying
to explain the work of civilizations more advanced than their own.
But some stuck with some form of naturalism, because they had a neurosis
linked up with their feelings about Mother Earth.
--W
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 07:05:39 PM |
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"News Subsystem" <news@news.astraweb.com> wrote in
news:42129760$0$12927$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95FEA12D0FCADvicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, C.J.W. dropped trou, farted, whirled,
then shouted:
[...]
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing,
they began to accumulate knowledge.
.....and the more they accumulated the less they thought any gods
were involved.
The more knowledge they accumulated the more they knew that they were
trying to explain the work of civilizations more advanced than their
own.
And so they worshiped this supposedly advanced civilization and imagined
all sorts of rules about it. And the natives of that civilization were
greatly amused by stories of the Cargo Cult of the South Pacific.
But some stuck with some form of naturalism, because they had a
neurosis linked up with their feelings about Mother Earth.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Where am I to go, now that I've gone too far?
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| User: "Secular Fundamentalist" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 03:08:52 AM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
And so they worshiped this supposedly advanced civilization and imagined
all sorts of rules about it. And the natives of that civilization were
greatly amused by stories of the Cargo Cult of the South Pacific.
Then they discovered a pile of paperbacks gathering dust in an old
chest, and hailed Erich Von Daniken as the greatest comedy writer of all
time.
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
If God had meant us to believe in him, he wouldn't have given us brains.
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 06:47:39 PM |
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News Subsystem wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95FEA12D0FCADvicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, C.J.W. dropped trou, farted,
whirled, then
shouted:
[...]
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so
doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
.....and the more they accumulated the less they thought any gods
were
involved.
The more knowledge they accumulated the more they knew that they were
trying
to explain the work of civilizations more advanced than their own.
But some stuck with some form of naturalism, because they had a
neurosis
linked up with their feelings about Mother Earth.
--W
what do you see that is the work of a civilization more advanced than
our own, and how can you begin studying that civilization?
.
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| User: "News Subsystem" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 07:32:57 PM |
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"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1108514859.100319.148100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
News Subsystem wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95FEA12D0FCADvicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, C.J.W. dropped trou, farted,
whirled, then
shouted:
[...]
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so
doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
.....and the more they accumulated the less they thought any gods
were
involved.
The more knowledge they accumulated the more they knew that they were
trying
to explain the work of civilizations more advanced than their own.
But some stuck with some form of naturalism, because they had a
neurosis
linked up with their feelings about Mother Earth.
--W
what do you see that is the work of a civilization more advanced than
our own, and how can you begin studying that civilization?
You can only understand the artifacts of another civilization in light of
your own knowledge. The pattern is that the type of technology that
something like the eye uses will not be truly understood that well until we
make some of our own lenses, such as telescopes and microscopes. This
probably applies to any civilization that one can concieve of, so living in
the information age and suddenly becoming more aware of the types of
information technology being used at the biochemical level seem to
correlate.
Therefore scientists procede to information,
"93. Everything is information
For many scientists, the codes and blueprints latent in the workings of the
world are best described as information. All the information on a particle,
for instance, is represented by the wavefunction that describes its
behavior. The quantum physicist John Archibald Wheeler has said that his
lifetime in physics was divided into three periods: "everything is
particles;" "every thing is fields;" and, now, "everything is information."
Gerald Schroeder observes that Wheeler "sees the world as the 'it' (the
tangible item) that came from a 'bit' (eight of which comprise a byte of
information) ." Information precedes its manifestation in matter."
(The Wonder of the World: A Journey from
Modern Science to the Mind of God
by Roy Abraham Varghese :422)
Note that the type of information technology being used at the biochemical
level far surpasses anything we can make by our own intelligent design. But
often those who adhere to philosophic naturalism seem have a neurotic
pattern of feelings about Mother Nature seem intent on being mothered and do
not realize that they are being smothered. Perhaps they exchange true
information for false deformation. They do say that they are in the pursuit
of naturalism and not the truth, after all.
--W
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 07:35:18 PM |
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News Subsystem wrote:
"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1108514859.100319.148100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
News Subsystem wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95FEA12D0FCADvicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, C.J.W. dropped trou, farted,
whirled, then
shouted:
[...]
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so
doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
.....and the more they accumulated the less they thought any
gods
were
involved.
The more knowledge they accumulated the more they knew that they
were
trying
to explain the work of civilizations more advanced than their own.
But some stuck with some form of naturalism, because they had a
neurosis
linked up with their feelings about Mother Earth.
--W
what do you see that is the work of a civilization more advanced
than
our own, and how can you begin studying that civilization?
You can only understand the artifacts of another civilization in
light of
your own knowledge. The pattern is that the type of technology that
something like the eye uses will not be truly understood that well
until we
make some of our own lenses, such as telescopes and microscopes.
This
probably applies to any civilization that one can concieve of, so
living in
the information age and suddenly becoming more aware of the types of
information technology being used at the biochemical level seem to
correlate.
Therefore scientists procede to information,
"93. Everything is information
For many scientists, the codes and blueprints latent in the workings
of the
world are best described as information. All the information on a
particle,
for instance, is represented by the wavefunction that describes its
behavior. The quantum physicist John Archibald Wheeler has said that
his
lifetime in physics was divided into three periods: "everything is
particles;" "every thing is fields;" and, now, "everything is
information."
Gerald Schroeder observes that Wheeler "sees the world as the 'it'
(the
tangible item) that came from a 'bit' (eight of which comprise a byte
of
information) ." Information precedes its manifestation in matter."
(The Wonder of the World: A Journey from
Modern Science to the Mind of God
by Roy Abraham Varghese :422)
Note that the type of information technology being used at the
biochemical
level far surpasses anything we can make by our own intelligent
design. But
often those who adhere to philosophic naturalism seem have a neurotic
pattern of feelings about Mother Nature seem intent on being mothered
and do
not realize that they are being smothered. Perhaps they exchange
true
information for false deformation. They do say that they are in the
pursuit
of naturalism and not the truth, after all.
--W
biology is indeed complex. but the idea behind design is simplicity.
imagine what human designs would be like if greater than 90% of their
parts had no discernible function.
.
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| User: "Andrew Arensburger" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 04:07:06 PM |
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In talk.origins snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
imagine what human designs would be like if greater than 90% of their
parts had no discernible function.
I don't have to imagine: our network is decades old and has
accumulated layer upon layer of cruft, to the point where no one can
tell what is useful design, what is tradition, what relies on what,
and what is only there because everyone's afraid to turn it off.
I think we're currently on year five of trying to consolidate
usernames, so that "bob" on this cluster refers to the same user as
"bob" on that other cluster.
Sometimes I imagine that somewhere out there, there's an
organization where a high-level manager can say "having six different
email systems is too complicated! Pick one for everyone, move all the
users to it, and get rid of the rest!" and a year later, it would be
done.
--
Andrew Arensburger, Systems guy University of Maryland
arensb.no-bloody-spam@umd.edu Office of Information Technology
Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of sanity this morning.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
16 Feb 2005 05:15:01 PM |
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Andrew Arensburger <arensb.no-bloody-spam@umd.edu> wrote:
In talk.origins snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
imagine what human designs would be like if greater than 90% of their
parts had no discernible function.
I don't have to imagine: our network is decades old and has
accumulated layer upon layer of cruft, to the point where no one can
tell what is useful design, what is tradition, what relies on what,
and what is only there because everyone's afraid to turn it off.
I think we're currently on year five of trying to consolidate
usernames, so that "bob" on this cluster refers to the same user as
"bob" on that other cluster.
Sometimes I imagine that somewhere out there, there's an
organization where a high-level manager can say "having six different
email systems is too complicated! Pick one for everyone, move all the
users to it, and get rid of the rest!" and a year later, it would be
done.
We have it here. What they did was choose th elowest common denominator
(a web-based email system) that is so slow as to be almost unusable. So
I continued to use my IMAP client (OS X's Mail.app) anyway, and screw
'em. Thus does evolution continue...
--
John S. Wilkins AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
Fiat lunch!
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| User: "Andrew Arensburger" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
17 Feb 2005 01:31:18 PM |
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In talk.origins John Wilkins <johnSPAM@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
We have it here. What they did was choose th elowest common denominator
This looks like an ordinary typo, but I choose to interpret it
as "Lowest Common Denominator" with the mandatory Internet-buzzword
"e" prefix (eToys, eCars, eWhatever).
(a web-based email system) that is so slow as to be almost unusable.
I think we have one of those. Along with several traditional
(non-web) mail systems that are so slow as to be almost unusable.
Does yours involve Novell in any way?
From talking to the people in charge of maintaining our
previous One True Mail System, "Yes", when used by marketroids in
response to the question "Can it handle 50,000 users?" means "I guess
we'll find out."
--
Andrew Arensburger, Systems guy University of Maryland
arensb.no-bloody-spam@umd.edu Office of Information Technology
Where there's smoke there's fire, but where there's a
vague fishy odor, it could be any number of things.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
17 Feb 2005 08:32:35 PM |
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Andrew Arensburger <arensb.no-bloody-spam@umd.edu> wrote:
In talk.origins John Wilkins <johnSPAM@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
We have it here. What they did was choose th elowest common denominator
This looks like an ordinary typo, but I choose to interpret it
as "Lowest Common Denominator" with the mandatory Internet-buzzword
"e" prefix (eToys, eCars, eWhatever).
Whatever makes me look the best is the right interpretation.
(a web-based email system) that is so slow as to be almost unusable.
I think we have one of those. Along with several traditional
(non-web) mail systems that are so slow as to be almost unusable.
Does yours involve Novell in any way?
Thank the computer gods, no.
From talking to the people in charge of maintaining our
previous One True Mail System, "Yes", when used by marketroids in
response to the question "Can it handle 50,000 users?" means "I guess
we'll find out."
Marketroids are a faith-based community.
--
John S. Wilkins AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
Fiat lunch!
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 07:49:21 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:32:57 -0500, "News Subsystem"
<news@news.astraweb.com> wrote:
Note that the type of information technology being used at the biochemical
level far surpasses anything we can make by our own intelligent design. But
often those who adhere to philosophic naturalism seem have a neurotic
pattern of feelings about Mother Nature seem intent on being mothered and do
not realize that they are being smothered. Perhaps they exchange true
information for false deformation. They do say that they are in the pursuit
of naturalism and not the truth, after all.
i keep wondering when the creationists are going to tell us when
they've seen a cause in nature that was NOT natural.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: A Parable, of Civilization |
15 Feb 2005 07:08:05 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:47:46 -0500, "News Subsystem"
<news@news.astraweb.com> wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95FEA12D0FCADvicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, C.J.W. dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
[...]
So they kept thinking about the story of the plane and in so doing, they
began to accumulate knowledge.
.....and the more they accumulated the less they thought any gods were
involved.
The more knowledge they accumulated the more they knew that they were trying
to explain the work of civilizations more advanced than their own.
But some stuck with some form of naturalism, because they had a neurosis
linked up with their feelings about Mother Earth.
--W
of course, he forgets that supernaturalism held sway in human history
for tens of thousands of years. it failed each and every single time
but that doesnt stop creationists from saying 'give us ONE more
chance'....
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
.
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