| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Greywolf" |
| Date: |
22 Dec 2006 04:16:27 AM |
| Object: |
A 'Profound' Question |
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 05:09:46 AM |
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Greywolf ha escrito:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
put it that way has not any logic, but if you take the god out of the
equation, you get a different view. Holy men invented the
comunication with a divinity as a way to control the people of his
tribe. It was, perhaps the first use of the politics without using
warfare.
leopoldo
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 06:16:40 AM |
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Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a man-made
'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to
mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
23 Dec 2006 02:53:50 AM |
|
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In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made
'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his 'will' --
to
mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man
in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head whether
the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
24 Dec 2006 10:35:39 AM |
|
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johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce
a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and
his 'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man
in a way that every single living human being on the planet would
immediately recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer?
Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe, the
ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an unremarkable
solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not be in my Top Ten
Important Things - probably not even in the Top Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil on
the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good? When
His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head whether the
rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
25 Dec 2006 12:37:28 AM |
|
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In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce
a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and
his 'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man
in a way that every single living human being on the planet would
immediately recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer?
Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe, the
ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an unremarkable
solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not be in my Top Ten
Important Things - probably not even in the Top Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil on
the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good? When
His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head whether the
rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
25 Dec 2006 11:51:18 AM |
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johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to
man in a way that every single living human being on the planet would
immediately recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe, the
ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head whether
the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
25 Dec 2006 11:51:17 PM |
|
|
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to
man in a way that every single living human being on the planet would
immediately recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe, the
ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head whether
the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the crew.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
26 Dec 2006 07:50:52 AM |
|
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johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could *possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
27 Dec 2006 12:06:18 AM |
|
|
In article <mn.d19a7d6c1a67cb3f.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could *possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
I'm sure that whatever we 'rats' do some life forms would continue on.
Maybe under the sea or deep in caves. Evolution might get a chance to
start over again almost from scratch.
I don't know if you saw it but the Animal Planet station had a several
part documentary on how evolution might take place in the future in a
world where humans had left for some reason. Giant predatory jellyfish,
intelligent squid, and birds that had evolved into whale like creatures,
among others. Some of it seemed far fetched but nevertheless
entertaining.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
27 Dec 2006 05:36:35 AM |
|
|
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.d19a7d6c1a67cb3f.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could *possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
I'm sure that whatever we 'rats' do some life forms would continue on.
Maybe under the sea or deep in caves. Evolution might get a chance to
start over again almost from scratch.
I don't know if you saw it but the Animal Planet station had a several
part documentary on how evolution might take place in the future in a
world where humans had left for some reason. Giant predatory jellyfish,
intelligent squid, and birds that had evolved into whale like creatures,
among others. Some of it seemed far fetched but nevertheless
entertaining.
Yes! I saw it at least twice. Very entertaining! I was a bit
surprised that there was no form which arose with intelligence. I
guess the creators of the show decided once was enough.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
27 Dec 2006 11:40:22 PM |
|
|
In article <mn.d9147d6c2ba38b38.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.d19a7d6c1a67cb3f.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely
'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could *possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the
grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would
not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of
evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or
good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
I'm sure that whatever we 'rats' do some life forms would continue on.
Maybe under the sea or deep in caves. Evolution might get a chance to
start over again almost from scratch.
I don't know if you saw it but the Animal Planet station had a several
part documentary on how evolution might take place in the future in a
world where humans had left for some reason. Giant predatory jellyfish,
intelligent squid, and birds that had evolved into whale like creatures,
among others. Some of it seemed far fetched but nevertheless
entertaining.
Yes! I saw it at least twice. Very entertaining! I was a bit
surprised that there was no form which arose with intelligence. I
guess the creators of the show decided once was enough.
Weren't the "squibbons" (sp?) supposed to be on their way to becoming an
intelligent species? Those were shown at the end of the last episode.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
28 Dec 2006 06:39:54 AM |
|
|
johac explained :
In article <mn.d9147d6c2ba38b38.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.d19a7d6c1a67cb3f.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely
'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could *possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the
grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would
not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of
evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or
good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
I'm sure that whatever we 'rats' do some life forms would continue on.
Maybe under the sea or deep in caves. Evolution might get a chance to
start over again almost from scratch.
I don't know if you saw it but the Animal Planet station had a several
part documentary on how evolution might take place in the future in a
world where humans had left for some reason. Giant predatory jellyfish,
intelligent squid, and birds that had evolved into whale like creatures,
among others. Some of it seemed far fetched but nevertheless
entertaining.
Yes! I saw it at least twice. Very entertaining! I was a bit
surprised that there was no form which arose with intelligence. I
guess the creators of the show decided once was enough.
Weren't the "squibbons" (sp?) supposed to be on their way to becoming an
intelligent species? Those were shown at the end of the last episode.
I thought the question of intelligence was left open ... maybe I
misinterpreted.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
28 Dec 2006 11:36:11 PM |
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In article <mn.e1537d6cb13ad60c.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.d9147d6c2ba38b38.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.d19a7d6c1a67cb3f.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely
'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' --
or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could
*possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the
grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to
observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would
not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of
evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or
good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the
crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
I'm sure that whatever we 'rats' do some life forms would continue on.
Maybe under the sea or deep in caves. Evolution might get a chance to
start over again almost from scratch.
I don't know if you saw it but the Animal Planet station had a several
part documentary on how evolution might take place in the future in a
world where humans had left for some reason. Giant predatory jellyfish,
intelligent squid, and birds that had evolved into whale like creatures,
among others. Some of it seemed far fetched but nevertheless
entertaining.
Yes! I saw it at least twice. Very entertaining! I was a bit
surprised that there was no form which arose with intelligence. I
guess the creators of the show decided once was enough.
Weren't the "squibbons" (sp?) supposed to be on their way to becoming an
intelligent species? Those were shown at the end of the last episode.
I thought the question of intelligence was left open ... maybe I
misinterpreted.
It was sort of open ended, but as I remembered the voice over implied
that they might be on the way to becoming intelligent. Their behavior as
depicted reminded me of chimpanzees.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
29 Dec 2006 08:30:40 AM |
|
|
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.e1537d6cb13ad60c.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.d9147d6c2ba38b38.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.d19a7d6c1a67cb3f.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely
'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' --
or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could
*possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the
grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to
observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy would
not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal of
evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or
good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the
crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
I'm sure that whatever we 'rats' do some life forms would continue on.
Maybe under the sea or deep in caves. Evolution might get a chance to
start over again almost from scratch.
I don't know if you saw it but the Animal Planet station had a several
part documentary on how evolution might take place in the future in a
world where humans had left for some reason. Giant predatory jellyfish,
intelligent squid, and birds that had evolved into whale like creatures,
among others. Some of it seemed far fetched but nevertheless
entertaining.
Yes! I saw it at least twice. Very entertaining! I was a bit
surprised that there was no form which arose with intelligence. I
guess the creators of the show decided once was enough.
Weren't the "squibbons" (sp?) supposed to be on their way to becoming an
intelligent species? Those were shown at the end of the last episode.
I thought the question of intelligence was left open ... maybe I
misinterpreted.
It was sort of open ended, but as I remembered the voice over implied
that they might be on the way to becoming intelligent. Their behavior as
depicted reminded me of chimpanzees.
Well, we started there with a common ancestor.
Presently we humans seem to be on the downward path of reverse
evolution. I am sometimes speechless at the stupid things people do;
I mean really s-t-u-p-i-d. Electing GWB for two terms, let alone one,
is a good example.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
30 Dec 2006 12:35:37 AM |
|
|
In article <mn.e9c27d6c53af9f5c.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.e1537d6cb13ad60c.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.d9147d6c2ba38b38.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac submitted this idea :
In article <mn.d19a7d6c1a67cb3f.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac explained :
In article <mn.ca8b7d6c0dc94788.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac expressed precisely :
In article <mn.c23f7d6c6d499ab9.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
johac wrote after much deliberation:
In article <mn.b13c7d6caa509c40.64065@worldnet.att.net>,
Pangur Ban <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Greywolf wrote after much deliberation:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely
'touching'
a human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' --
or
produce a man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his
'existence' -- and his 'will' -- to mankind? What could
*possibly*
prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in a way
that
every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer? Greywolf
Why should a deity bother? Mankind is just not important in the
grand
scheme! lol If I were a deity with the entire universe to
observe,
the ephemeral bits of flesh on an unimpressive bit of rock in an
unremarkable solar system in a backwater of a typical galaxy
would
not
be in my Top Ten Important Things - probably not even in the
Top
Million! :')
From Candide:
"But, Reverend Father," said Candide, "there is a horrible deal
of
evil
on the earth."
"What signifies it," said the dervish, "whether there is evil or
good?
When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt does he trouble his head
whether the rats in the vessel are at their ease or not?"
And we seem to be rats on a sinking ship!
Unfortunately, except it seems that we are sinking it ourselves.
We might survive - unless we blow up a good part of the ship!
Yes and unless we set the ship on fire or poison ourselves and the
crew.
The "ship" is, by human standards, a very large one. We rats may do
localized damage, but we can't sink the ship. Extinctions in the past
have fairly well proven that life - of some sort - is pernicious and
will continue after humans are gone. I still have hopes that nuclear
war is averted - somehow, but the hopes are small.
I'm sure that whatever we 'rats' do some life forms would continue on.
Maybe under the sea or deep in caves. Evolution might get a chance to
start over again almost from scratch.
I don't know if you saw it but the Animal Planet station had a several
part documentary on how evolution might take place in the future in a
world where humans had left for some reason. Giant predatory jellyfish,
intelligent squid, and birds that had evolved into whale like
creatures,
among others. Some of it seemed far fetched but nevertheless
entertaining.
Yes! I saw it at least twice. Very entertaining! I was a bit
surprised that there was no form which arose with intelligence. I
guess the creators of the show decided once was enough.
Weren't the "squibbons" (sp?) supposed to be on their way to becoming an
intelligent species? Those were shown at the end of the last episode.
I thought the question of intelligence was left open ... maybe I
misinterpreted.
It was sort of open ended, but as I remembered the voice over implied
that they might be on the way to becoming intelligent. Their behavior as
depicted reminded me of chimpanzees.
Well, we started there with a common ancestor.
True.
Presently we humans seem to be on the downward path of reverse
evolution. I am sometimes speechless at the stupid things people do;
I mean really s-t-u-p-i-d. Electing GWB for two terms, let alone one,
is a good example.
I have problems with that myself. How could so many people vote against
their own self interest? Probably because they always voted for that
party or candidate.
Politics in this country is almost like religion in others. People vote
for candidate A or B because they 'know' their choice is right and don't
even bother to look at the facts. Or they vote for one party because
'everybody knows' the other party is bad. I think that the biggest
problem that this country faces is that so many people are just
intellectually lazy.
And of course, the thirty second sound bite commercial proves beyond a
reasonable doubt the the opponent is a slimebag, thief, cheats on
his/her wife/husband, molests little kids, and kicks cute little puppy
dogs. "I saw it on TV so it must be true!" And I approve of this
message.
Sorry if I sound like a cynic concerning politics, but I am.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
28 Dec 2006 01:03:34 AM |
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Greywolf wrote:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to
What makes you think that such a deity has to resort to anything?
divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man
What makes you think that such a deity is being prevented from openly
presenting himself to man?
Your mind is obviously shut closed; it is obvious that ANY action or
non-action of such a deity you consider to be "proof" that it doesn't
exist. If the deity does something, you believe that something made it
do it. If the deity does NOT do something, you believe that something
is preventing it from doing it.
Like a true religious nut, you consider all evidence as "proof" of
whatever you want to believe.
in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
.
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| User: "Kevin Anthoney" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 12:28:39 PM |
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Greywolf wrote:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man
in a way that every single living human being on the planet would
immediately recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of
reservation. Any theist have the answer?
Greywolf
The usual answer is that if a deity presented itself like that it would fly
in the face of Free Will, since we'd be forced to accept it. Of course,
that answer doesn't make much sense, as accepting it exists doesn't mean
that we have to accept what it's telling us, but theists don't seem able to
grasp that point.
--
Kevin Anthoney
kanthoney[a]dsl.pipex.com
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 09:27:30 AM |
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Greywolf wrote:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
The magical, pixie dust, mojo called FAITH Greywolf. You know, that
substance that allows the god thing to appear to those that have it, but
not to those that don't. Magical ***** that fills the faithfuls' head
with visions of demons trying to get them, through tarot card readers
and Harry Potter. Pixie dust that lets them witness miraculous
healing's, though never of missing limbs or eyes. That mojo that not
only controls the all powerful god, which means it's not, but also
creates the all powerful god, meaning it's not.
FAITH lets the faithful believe that their god is real and that they
have seen it. But FAITH also seems to block their god, cuz those of us
with out it, have never seen it. Strange how a magical substance named
FAITH, prevents the all powerful god, through the lack of having it,
from proving once and for all that it is indeed, all powerful.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 09:55:50 AM |
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In article <12onc3tphsj520f@corp.supernews.com> "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> writes:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
I've tried variations on that question myself, and the only
answers I've gotten back were:
-- providing utterly undeniable proof of His existence
would infringe on our free will to believe or not
to believe, or
-- God doesn't WANT people who believe for good reasons,
He wants only followers who take it all by faith, or
-- He has done so in the past. What, you want Him to have
to do it again, keep doing it, just to prove it
to YOU?
So, as you can see, if there IS a good answer, no one's
given it to me yet.
-- cary
.
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| User: "George Ricker" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 11:30:40 AM |
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In article <12onc3tphsj520f@corp.supernews.com>,
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
Heh! I've always thought that, assuming such a person ever actually
existed, Jesus Christ would have been better served if he had traded in
his twelve apostles for one good stenographer.
--
George Ricker
"Godless in America" by George Ricker is now available at
online book sellers, like amazon.com, and most book retailers.
Go to http://www.godlessinamerica.com for more information.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 05:01:18 AM |
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 04:16:27 -0600, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12onc3tphsj520f@corp.supernews.com>
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
If said deity were an entirely malicious capricious viscous sadist
with arrested mental development, then that may go some way to
explaining the thesis.
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation.
Sheer bloody mindedness?
Any
theist have the answer?
No.
Not in the entire history of the universe to date.
Bit of a "give away", huh?
--
.
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| User: "Dennis Beerpint" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 05:31:31 AM |
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Or to broaden the question:
If a a god requires that people believe in it, then why does this god
no longer resort to "miracles" in order to demonstrate it's existence.
One answer that Christians often give to this question is that their
god has already offered sufficent and overwhelming proof. They claim
that if their god were to reveal himself it would somehow deny us the
freedom to believe or disbelieve. Quite why that logic did not apply in
the days when the miracles allegedly happened I do not know.
Some christians argue that god does not need to directly intervene in
our lives. They claim that there is abundant evidence from the natural
world from which we can infer the existence of a god: They may cite
such things as:
* The existence of the bible and the miracles it allegedly describes
* The majesty of the universe
* Their personal faith
* Revelations god has supposedly given to them alone
* The majesty of the universe
* The "miracle" of childbirth
* The beauty of a golden sunrise reflected from a single drop of dew
hanging from a blade of grass.
Clearly all of these phenomena have mundane explainations which do not
entail the existence of a god.
:-)
On Dec 22, 10:16 am, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation. Any
theist have the answer?
Greywolf
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 03:23:51 PM |
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"Dennis Beerpint" <salimfadhley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166787091.875115.260030@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Or to broaden the question:
If a a god requires that people believe in it, then why does this god
no longer resort to "miracles" in order to demonstrate it's existence.
One answer that Christians often give to this question is that their
god has already offered sufficent and overwhelming proof.
That being ... ?
They claim
that if their god were to reveal himself it would somehow deny us the
freedom to believe or disbelieve.
Oh, I see. 'God' wants us to have the 'freedom' to disbelieve that he exists
.... only to have *what* happen to us if we so 'freely' choose to do so?
Quite why that logic did not apply in
the days when the miracles allegedly happened I do not know.
Yeah. A little 'strange' isn't it? God (allegedly) allows 'miracles' and
'signs' to take place (in part, through 'Jesus') to convince the ancients
who were 'eye-witnesses' to these 'unbelieveable' (in the truest sense of
the word) miracles in order to convince mankind of his existence, but
expects *that* to convince moderns who have *not* witnessed any such
miracles themselves to have 'faith' that they did, indeed, occur! And when
all the while this 'knowing God' would *know* that every fiber in our modern
bodies would just 'scream out' and shout that those 'miracle' stories were
just pure fabrications. Some 'smart' God the theists have come up with,
isn't he?
Some christians argue that god does not need to directly intervene in
our lives.
Nice way of camoflauging the fact that he doesn't really exist, isn't it?
They claim that there is abundant evidence from the natural
world from which we can infer the existence of a god:
'Infer'? Why not have 'God' openly reveal his presence/existence to us in a
completely unambiguous way? Would that be too hard for a 'real' God to do?
They may cite
such things as:
* The existence of the bible and the miracles it allegedly describes
* The majesty of the universe
* Their personal faith
* Revelations god has supposedly given to them alone
* The majesty of the universe
* The "miracle" of childbirth
* The beauty of a golden sunrise reflected from a single drop of dew
hanging from a blade of grass.
OOoooooh! I'm in awe of nature and the universe. Proof positive that a
single, uncreated 'God' is responsible for it all, is it?
Clearly all of these phenomena have mundane explainations which do not
entail the existence of a god.
:-)
On Dec 22, 10:16 am, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man
in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would
immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation.
Any theist have the answer?
Greywolf
What good are claims of 'miracles' to those who have not witnessed them,
themselves? Think about it.
Greywolf
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 07:23:49 PM |
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"Dennis Beerpint" <salimfadhley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166787091.875115.260030@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Or to broaden the question:
If a a god requires that people believe in it, then why does this god
no longer resort to "miracles" in order to demonstrate it's existence.
One answer that Christians often give to this question is that their
god has already offered sufficent and overwhelming proof.
That being ... ?
They claim
that if their god were to reveal himself it would somehow deny us the
freedom to believe or disbelieve.
Oh, I see. 'God' wants us to have the 'freedom' to disbelieve that he exists
.... only to have *what* happen to us if we so 'freely' choose to do that?
Quite why that logic did not apply in
the days when the miracles allegedly happened I do not know.
Yeah. A little 'strange' isn't it? God (allegedly) allows 'miracles' and
'signs' to take place (in part, through 'Jesus') to convince the ancients
who were 'eye-witnesses' to these 'unbelieveable' (in the truest sense of
the word) miracles in order to convince mankind of his existence, but
expects *that* to convince moderns who have *not* witnessed any such
miracles themselves to have 'faith' that they did, indeed, occur! And all
the while this 'knowing God' would *know* that every fiber in our modern
bodies would just 'scream out' and shout that those 'miracle' stories were
just pure fabrications; that they are preposterous beyond belief! Some
'smart' God the theists have come up with, isn't he?
Some christians argue that god does not need to directly intervene in
our lives.
Nice way of camoflauging the fact that he doesn't really exist, isn't it?
They claim that there is abundant evidence from the natural
world from which we can infer the existence of a god:
'Infer'? Why not have 'God' openly reveal his existence to us in a
completely unambiguous way? Would that be too hard for a 'real' God to do?
Can't everyone see a little too much in the way of 'non-existence' here?
They may cite
such things as:
* The existence of the bible and the miracles it allegedly describes
* The majesty of the universe
* Their personal faith
* Revelations god has supposedly given to them alone
* The majesty of the universe
* The "miracle" of childbirth
* The beauty of a golden sunrise reflected from a single drop of dew
hanging from a blade of grass.
Ooooh! I'm in awe of nature and the universe. That's 'proof positive' that a
*single*, uncreated 'God' is responsible for it all, is it?
Clearly all of these phenomena have mundane explainations which do not
entail the existence of a god.
:-)
On Dec 22, 10:16 am, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
Why in the *world* would deity have to resort to divinely 'touching' a
human
and having that human act as his divine 'mouthpiece' -- or produce a
man-made 'Holy' book to 'reveal' his presence, his 'existence' -- and his
'will' -- to mankind?
What could *possibly* prevent deity from openly presenting himself to man
in
a way that every single living human being on the planet would
immediately
recognize *as* being 'deity' without the slightest bit of reservation.
Any theist have the answer?
Greywolf
What good are claims of 'miracles' to those who have not witnessed them
themselves? Think about it.
Greywolf
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
23 Dec 2006 02:46:48 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:23:49 -0600, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12op220bgmoo5a1@corp.supernews.com>
"Dennis Beerpint" <salimfadhley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166787091.875115.260030@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Or to broaden the question:
If a a god requires that people believe in it, then why does this god
no longer resort to "miracles" in order to demonstrate it's existence.
One answer that Christians often give to this question is that their
god has already offered sufficent and overwhelming proof.
That being ... ?
:
Untestable personal revelation!
--
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 09:56:46 AM |
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On 22 Dec 2006 03:31:31 -0800, "Dennis Beerpint" <salimfadhley@gmail.com> wrote:
Or to broaden the question:
If a a god requires that people believe in it, then why does this god
no longer resort to "miracles" in order to demonstrate it's existence.
<SNIP>
Gravity isn't a miracle? :-)
Ben
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: A 'Profound' Question |
22 Dec 2006 11:16:54 AM |
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"Ben Kaufman" <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-dollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:vavno2d0ocodfe2jmqc7il2c3k27ldvo6v@4ax.com...
On 22 Dec 2006 03:31:31 -0800, "Dennis Beerpint" <salimfadhley@gmail.com>
wrote:
Or to broaden the question:
If a a god requires that people believe in it, then why does this god
no longer resort to "miracles" in order to demonstrate it's existence.
<SNIP>
Gravity isn't a miracle? :-)
Ben
'No.', it's not. A 'God' that reveals himself to the entire world -- and in
an irrefutable and unassailable way -- next Tuesday afternoon, *would* be.
Greywolf
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