| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"GreenEggsNSpam" |
| Date: |
14 Nov 2003 02:20:47 PM |
| Object: |
A question on arguing with Creationists |
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by proper
interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the cosmos.
For example, Day 4 in Genesis says that the sun, moon and stars were
created. Obvioulsy this is wrong becuase you can't have the earth's
formation without the sun. So they explain it like this:
------------------
According to Talmud (500 CE), on the fourth day of Genesis, the Sun, Moon,
and Stars became visible in the heavens, so that they could be used to tell
the times and seasons.
Day four correllates to a time 1.75 billion to 750 million years ago, when
the atmospheric concentration of photosynthetically produced oxygen rose to
concentrations comparable with today's atmosphere. There are indications
that with the further cooling of Earth and the rise in atmospheric oxygen,
the atmosphere, formerly translucent, became transparent.
Science agrees with the Talmudic interpretation that plant life existed on
earth before the heavenly bodies would have been clearly visible in the sky.
------------------
They are basing their arguments off of interpreations of the bible. A point
in their arguing is that the interpretations were drawn 1500 years ago,
before we had science that told us such things. They are using the "1500
year old Talmudic interpretation" of Genesis. Here are more examples:
------------------
Day 1 - 15,750,000,000 - 7,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical description: The creation of the universe; light separates from
dark.
Scientific description: The big bang marks the creation of the universe;
light literally breaks free as electrons bond to atomic nuclei; galaxies
start to form
Day Two - 7,750,000,000 - 3,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical: The heavenly firmament forms.
Scientific: Disk of Milky Way forms; Sun, a main sequence star, forms
Day Three - 3,750,000,000
Biblical: Oceans and dry land appear; the first life, plants, appear;
kabalah states this marked only the start of plant life, which then
developed during the following days
Scientific: The earth has cooled and liquid water appears 3.8 billion years
ago followed almost immediately by the first forms of life: bacteria and
photosynthetic algae
Day Four - 1,750,000,000 - 7,500,000 years ago
Biblical: Sun, Moon, and stars become visible in the heavens (Talmud Hagigah
12a)
Scientific: Earth's atmosphere becomes transparent; photosynthesis produces
oxygen-rich atmostphere
Day Five - 750,000,000 - 250,000,000
Biblical: First animal life swarms abundantly in waters; followed by
reptiles and winged animals
Scientific: First multicellular animals; waters swarm with animal life
having the basic body plans of all future animals; winged insects appear.
Day Six - 250,000,000 - ~6,000 years ago
Biblical: Land animals; mammals; humankind
Scientific: Massive extinction destroys over 90% of life. Land is
repopulated: hominids and then humans.
"Day two began 7.75 billion years ago and ended 3.75 billion years ago.
During that period most of the stars of the Milky Way's spiral formed. The
Sun, a main sequence star located in the spiral, formed 4.6 billion years
ago. The oldest stars of the Milky Way are found in globular clusters,
outside the spiral disk, and are barely visible to unaided vision.
The Bible tells that on day two the heavenly firmament took shape. From our
vantage, the heavens we see are almost totally composed of stars of the
Milky Way's main spiral disk."
-------------------
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way I see
it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so much, and
basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it seem like it fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
.
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| User: "Jim Hutton" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
14 Nov 2003 02:27:36 PM |
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"GreenEggsNSpam" <nothx@nothingcool.com> wrote in message
news:vradp62em5r00e@corp.supernews.com...
------------------
Day 1 - 15,750,000,000 - 7,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical description: The creation of the universe; light separates from
dark.
Scientific description: The big bang marks the creation of the universe;
light literally breaks free as electrons bond to atomic nuclei; galaxies
start to form
But these numbers are way off. The era of recombination was no more than a
million years after the bigbang.
and galaxies formed more than 12 billion yrs ago.
Day Two - 7,750,000,000 - 3,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical: The heavenly firmament forms.
Scientific: Disk of Milky Way forms; Sun, a main sequence star, forms
MW is way older.
Day Three - 3,750,000,000
Biblical: Oceans and dry land appear; the first life, plants, appear;
kabalah states this marked only the start of plant life, which then
developed during the following days
Seems like you can make anything fit....any scenario...
JH #1696
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| User: "Billy Goat" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
15 Nov 2003 01:51:03 PM |
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"GreenEggsNSpam" <nothx@nothingcool.com> wrote in message news:<vradp62em5r00e@corp.supernews.com>...
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by proper
interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the cosmos.
<snip>
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way I see
it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so much, and
basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it seem like it fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
I've never tried this, but here's a thought: Point out that the
creationist is basing his interpretation of Genesis on scientific
discoveries. He apparently thinks science is necessary to understand
God's Word properly. He is therefore placing science before God, and
is going to Hell. :)
--Billy
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| User: "GreenEggsNSpam" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
15 Nov 2003 03:29:22 PM |
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"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0311151151.1613176@posting.google.com...
"GreenEggsNSpam" <nothx@nothingcool.com> wrote in message
news:<vradp62em5r00e@corp.supernews.com>...
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by
proper
interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the cosmos.
<snip>
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way I
see
it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so much, and
basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it seem like it
fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
I've never tried this, but here's a thought: Point out that the
creationist is basing his interpretation of Genesis on scientific
discoveries. He apparently thinks science is necessary to understand
God's Word properly. He is therefore placing science before God, and
is going to Hell. :)
--Billy
Hey Billy;
Let's flesh this idea out. That's a damn good little thought thing!
.
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| User: "Billy Goat" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
16 Nov 2003 10:14:23 PM |
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"GreenEggsNSpam" <nothx@nothingcool.com> wrote in message news:<vrd69uvbmk033@corp.supernews.com>...
"Billy Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6bd3c70a.0311151151.1613176@posting.google.com...
"GreenEggsNSpam" <nothx@nothingcool.com> wrote in message
news:<vradp62em5r00e@corp.supernews.com>...
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by
proper
interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the cosmos.
<snip>
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way I
see
it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so much, and
basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it seem like it
fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
I've never tried this, but here's a thought: Point out that the
creationist is basing his interpretation of Genesis on scientific
discoveries. He apparently thinks science is necessary to understand
God's Word properly. He is therefore placing science before God, and
is going to Hell. :)
--Billy
Hey Billy;
Let's flesh this idea out. That's a damn good little thought thing!
Hehe. Glad you like it.
I first got the idea while reading posts by... someone whose name I
will not mention. (He might see it and respond.) He keeps going on
about how the Bible, if you read it properly, predicted some recent
astronomical discovery or something. "God knew it first, science
proves it." And it occurred to me that this was an admission that
science is the final arbiter of truth.
The "going to Hell" thing is just something I like to throw in there.
I used to take the Bible so seriously that I gained the amazing
ability to see how any human thought or action can qualify as a sin.
It made life depressing, which is why I gave up on Christianity.
--Billy
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| User: "Maverick" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
15 Nov 2003 09:32:59 AM |
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2003-11-14, 09:20:47 PM, GreenEggsNSpam wrote:
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by
proper interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the
cosmos.
For example, Day 4 in Genesis says that the sun, moon and stars were
created. Obvioulsy this is wrong becuase you can't have the earth's
formation without the sun. So they explain it like this:
------------------
According to Talmud (500 CE), on the fourth day of Genesis, the Sun,
Moon, and Stars became visible in the heavens, so that they could be
used to tell the times and seasons.
Day four correllates to a time 1.75 billion to 750 million years ago,
when the atmospheric concentration of photosynthetically produced
oxygen rose to concentrations comparable with today's atmosphere.
There are indications that with the further cooling of Earth and the
rise in atmospheric oxygen, the atmosphere, formerly translucent,
became transparent.
Science agrees with the Talmudic interpretation that plant life
existed on earth before the heavenly bodies would have been clearly
visible in the sky. ------------------
They are basing their arguments off of interpreations of the bible.
A point in their arguing is that the interpretations were drawn 1500
years ago, before we had science that told us such things. They are
using the "1500 year old Talmudic interpretation" of Genesis. Here
are more examples:
------------------
Day 1 - 15,750,000,000 - 7,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical description: The creation of the universe; light separates
from dark.
Scientific description: The big bang marks the creation of the
universe; light literally breaks free as electrons bond to atomic
nuclei; galaxies start to form
Day Two - 7,750,000,000 - 3,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical: The heavenly firmament forms.
Scientific: Disk of Milky Way forms; Sun, a main sequence star, forms
Day Three - 3,750,000,000
Biblical: Oceans and dry land appear; the first life, plants, appear;
kabalah states this marked only the start of plant life, which then
developed during the following days
Scientific: The earth has cooled and liquid water appears 3.8 billion
years ago followed almost immediately by the first forms of life:
bacteria and photosynthetic algae
Day Four - 1,750,000,000 - 7,500,000 years ago
Biblical: Sun, Moon, and stars become visible in the heavens (Talmud
Hagigah 12a)
Scientific: Earth's atmosphere becomes transparent; photosynthesis
produces oxygen-rich atmostphere
Day Five - 750,000,000 - 250,000,000
Biblical: First animal life swarms abundantly in waters; followed by
reptiles and winged animals
Scientific: First multicellular animals; waters swarm with animal life
having the basic body plans of all future animals; winged insects
appear.
Day Six - 250,000,000 - ~6,000 years ago
Biblical: Land animals; mammals; humankind
Scientific: Massive extinction destroys over 90% of life. Land is
repopulated: hominids and then humans.
"Day two began 7.75 billion years ago and ended 3.75 billion years
ago. During that period most of the stars of the Milky Way's spiral
formed. The Sun, a main sequence star located in the spiral, formed
4.6 billion years ago. The oldest stars of the Milky Way are found in
globular clusters, outside the spiral disk, and are barely visible to
unaided vision.
The Bible tells that on day two the heavenly firmament took shape.
From our vantage, the heavens we see are almost totally composed of
stars of the Milky Way's main spiral disk."
-------------------
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way
I see it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so
much, and basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it
seem like it fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
The bible is not a science textbook and should not be read as one.
The Genesis is full of myths and fables that can be interpreted in ways
so they support your personal beliefs. It's useless even if someone can
interpret it to fit with science.
.
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
15 Nov 2003 03:22:00 PM |
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On 15 Nov 2003, "Maverick" <insensitive_clod@hotmail.com> screwed up his
face, groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:LGrtb.3505$uv1.2686@nntpserver.swip.net:
2003-11-14, 09:20:47 PM, GreenEggsNSpam wrote:
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by
proper interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the
cosmos.
For example, Day 4 in Genesis says that the sun, moon and stars were
created. Obvioulsy this is wrong becuase you can't have the earth's
formation without the sun. So they explain it like this:
------------------
According to Talmud (500 CE), on the fourth day of Genesis, the Sun,
Moon, and Stars became visible in the heavens, so that they could be
used to tell the times and seasons.
Day four correllates to a time 1.75 billion to 750 million years ago,
when the atmospheric concentration of photosynthetically produced
oxygen rose to concentrations comparable with today's atmosphere.
There are indications that with the further cooling of Earth and the
rise in atmospheric oxygen, the atmosphere, formerly translucent,
became transparent.
Science agrees with the Talmudic interpretation that plant life
existed on earth before the heavenly bodies would have been clearly
visible in the sky. ------------------
They are basing their arguments off of interpreations of the bible.
A point in their arguing is that the interpretations were drawn 1500
years ago, before we had science that told us such things. They are
using the "1500 year old Talmudic interpretation" of Genesis. Here
are more examples:
------------------
Day 1 - 15,750,000,000 - 7,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical description: The creation of the universe; light separates
from dark.
Scientific description: The big bang marks the creation of the
universe; light literally breaks free as electrons bond to atomic
nuclei; galaxies start to form
Day Two - 7,750,000,000 - 3,750,000,000 years ago
Biblical: The heavenly firmament forms.
Scientific: Disk of Milky Way forms; Sun, a main sequence star, forms
Day Three - 3,750,000,000
Biblical: Oceans and dry land appear; the first life, plants, appear;
kabalah states this marked only the start of plant life, which then
developed during the following days
Scientific: The earth has cooled and liquid water appears 3.8 billion
years ago followed almost immediately by the first forms of life:
bacteria and photosynthetic algae
Day Four - 1,750,000,000 - 7,500,000 years ago
Biblical: Sun, Moon, and stars become visible in the heavens (Talmud
Hagigah 12a)
Scientific: Earth's atmosphere becomes transparent; photosynthesis
produces oxygen-rich atmostphere
Day Five - 750,000,000 - 250,000,000
Biblical: First animal life swarms abundantly in waters; followed by
reptiles and winged animals
Scientific: First multicellular animals; waters swarm with animal
life
having the basic body plans of all future animals; winged insects
appear.
Day Six - 250,000,000 - ~6,000 years ago
Biblical: Land animals; mammals; humankind
Scientific: Massive extinction destroys over 90% of life. Land is
repopulated: hominids and then humans.
"Day two began 7.75 billion years ago and ended 3.75 billion years
ago. During that period most of the stars of the Milky Way's spiral
formed. The Sun, a main sequence star located in the spiral, formed
4.6 billion years ago. The oldest stars of the Milky Way are found in
globular clusters, outside the spiral disk, and are barely visible to
unaided vision.
The Bible tells that on day two the heavenly firmament took shape.
From our vantage, the heavens we see are almost totally composed of
stars of the Milky Way's main spiral disk."
-------------------
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way
I see it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so
much, and basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it
seem like it fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
The bible is not a science textbook and should not be read as one.
The Genesis is full of myths and fables that can be interpreted in
ways
so they support your personal beliefs. It's useless even if someone
can
interpret it to fit with science.
Exactly. Even if they were able to reinterpret it so that it seemed
entirely in accord with science, the Bible still didn't tell them what
really happened -- science did, and before that they had no clue. They
had to wait for science to find it out and tell them what happened
before they could decide what their book *really* meant.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
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| User: "Graham Kennedy" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
14 Nov 2003 02:52:00 PM |
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GreenEggsNSpam wrote:
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way I see
it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so much, and
basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it seem like it fits.
How would you argue this?
Why not say exactly what you just said? That seems to sum
it up nicely.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
15 Nov 2003 11:12:32 AM |
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On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:20:47 +0000, GreenEggsNSpam wrote:
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by
proper interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the cosmos.
<snip>
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way I see
it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so much, and
basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it seem like it fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
You *don't* argue this. If you are talking to someone who puts more stock
in a book of ancient myths than they do in modern scientific thought, you
are not going to convince them using modern scientific arguments and
evidence. Just smile politely, tell them that their god is very nice, and
back slowly away....
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
15 Nov 2003 06:23:37 PM |
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On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:12:32 GMT, "MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net>
wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:20:47 +0000, GreenEggsNSpam wrote:
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by
proper interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the cosmos.
<snip>
So, my question to you guys, is how do you argue with this? The way I see
it, it is a gross resprentation of Genesis to disect it so much, and
basically just draw conclussions to whatever to make it seem like it fits.
How would you argue this?
Thanks
GreenEggsNSpam
You *don't* argue this. If you are talking to someone who puts more stock
in a book of ancient myths than they do in modern scientific thought, you
are not going to convince them using modern scientific arguments and
evidence. Just smile politely, tell them that their god is very nice, and
back slowly away....
The problem is that they get elected to positions of power where they
try to enforce their ignorance - from school boards to the Presidency.
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: A question on arguing with Creationists |
14 Nov 2003 02:34:34 PM |
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On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, GreenEggsNSpam wrote:
Hey guys
There is a specific type of creationist that argues that Genesis, by proper
interpretation, does in fact parallel the creaiton of the cosmos.
<snip>
You might want to ask your question(s) over on talk.origins.
.
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