| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Mike Henley" |
| Date: |
25 Jun 2004 07:32:08 PM |
| Object: |
A question to fellow atheists |
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!! I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Please comment.
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 01:14:20 AM |
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"Mike Henley" <mnhenley@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com...
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself.
Why do you think life should have a meaning ?
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 08:56:08 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:14:20 +0100 in episode
<40dd141d$0$291$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> we saw our hero "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com>:
"Mike Henley" <mnhenley@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com...
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself.
Why do you think life should have a meaning ?
Or that anybody--religious included--aren't just making it up as they go
along?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington.
That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington
has known and fully knows what [the neo-conservative]
agenda was and what they were trying to do."
[Retired General Anthony Zinni]
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| User: "Desdinova" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
25 Jun 2004 10:08:06 PM |
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"Mike Henley" <mnhenley@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com...
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!! I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Please comment.
Hi Mike.
I became an atheist about 3 years ago. Formerly a Lutheran then
Presbyterian, I had always been somewhat skeptical about biblical stories. I
never felt "worthy" as a Christian. The more I prayed for faith, the more it
was slipping away. I guess the cognitive dissonance resulting from trying to
reconcile the existence of God to the reality of the world and the
non-effectiveness of prayers started to undermine my faith.
The more I read about science, the less I was able to reconcile my beliefs
with those of theology. When I had some minor surgery, my wife brought me
some skeptical magazines (Skeptic and Skeptical Inquirer) to help pass the
time. These were a real eye-opener and really helped me shed the few
remaining beliefs I still had.
I think many scientists who are religious either don't take the bible
literally but haven't quite made the leap to atheism/agnosticism or perhaps
they can compartmentalize the two.
As far as theists living longer, check out the most recent Free Inquiry
Magazine. There is an article in there that addresses it. Essentially, the
religious tend to live longer and healthier because they tend not to abuse
alcohol and tobacco, are wealthier (able to afford better health care) and
have a sense of community. If you take care of your self, have good health
care and friends this shouldn't be a concern.
Regards.
--
aa #2182 Desdinova - EAC Harvester of Eyes
There are none so blind as those who view life filtered
through the stained glass of church windows.
"Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human
nature that it does not believe a man can tell the truth
unless frightened by a belief in God. No lower opinion
of the human race has ever been expressed."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
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| User: "Eric Pepke" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 01:50:51 AM |
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(Mike Henley) wrote in message news:<6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com>...
Fellow atheists,
I'm an atheist, and I'm a fellow, so perhaps I count.
But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
Read some Nietzsche. I cannot stress this enough. One of Nietzsche's
main points is that people see the world in terms of mythology. If you
don't accept a pre-packaged mythology like that of religion, make your
own.
I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Ya know, if you spend your life being troubled by things like that,
this in and of itself is going to make your life sicker and worse.
I'm sure that religionists have healthier and better lives, just as I'm sure
that white people in the Old South had healthier and better lives than
black people, just as I'm sure that Christians in Europe a few decades
ago had healthier and better lives than Jews. Them's the breaks.
You want health and happiness? Stick an ice pick in your forehead,
cut your gonads off, and become addicted to heroin. You'll live a long,
happy life.
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| User: "AnotherObserverŽ" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 03:21:19 AM |
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(Mike Henley) wrote:
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Christian preachers? Here? In alt.atheism? What would make you
think such a thing?
Fellow atheists,
If yer only "leaning to the determinately atheist persuasion" then you
aren't a fellow atheist. Oh, and atheism isn't a persuasion leading
you into a cult, it's a point of view that you reach on your own
terms.
Ahem, "persuasions by religions" aren't an issue, didn't you know
that. After all, you do not believe in any form of deity, so you say.
An "open mind" has nothing to do with atheism, as an open mind is
usually an easy target to dump ***** into. What's required is
skepticism to the point that you question things without fear. Once
you question things, review the answers and evidence reasonably, you
can then use logic to reach a conclusion. Lacking evidence or logical
answers? It's up to you to make a conclusion or simply leave it open.
This process applies to everything, not just the god syndrome.
What is "God?!!" you ask? God is part of the "god syndrome" humans
developed and passed on in the blood, to explain the yet
unexplainable. I thought you knew that already.
Hmm, you find "transcendental meaning"..."enlightening"? Wow.
You know, personal philosophies work fairly well if you need to fill a
void and maintain a continual moral model.
Why are you "somewhat troubled" by scientists who may believe in gods?
Who gives? In their work, they must produce evidence based on
demonstrative theory and pass it on to peer review, their personal
deity delusion is irrelevant.
Don't worry, counting your blessings has nothing to do with religion,
so you can keep that. Heck, to say "bless you" to someone isn't the
same as "God bless you". "Bless you" is more like "thank you" or a
way to express your gratitude towards someone or their actions.
I'd love to have reference to the psychological/medical research that
suggests healthier and happier lives. As for the psych field, slight
delusions that people have, not exclusive to religion, do tend to
create a euphoria among those who are afflicted with the disease. The
field views those slight delusions as harmless, until they begin to
cause problems with the person's mental stability.
There you have it sparky, now run along and compare this with your
collected data. I'm curious if you'll find any sort of weaponry from
the responses that you may receive. Keep us posted, okay? We're
waiting on the day that you guys can provide a valid argument, yet we
simply know that it won't happen :-)
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!! I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Please comment.
--
Davidwd a.a
~~~~~~~~~
Spooked once,
but never again
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 02:41:39 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 04:21:19 -0400, AnotherObserverŽ wrote:
(snip)
There you have it sparky, now run along and compare this with your
collected data. I'm curious if you'll find any sort of weaponry from
the responses that you may receive. Keep us posted, okay? We're
waiting on the day that you guys can provide a valid argument, yet we
simply know that it won't happen :-)
Me thinks you doubt his sincerity. =-/
.
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 10:06:03 AM |
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Did I not already answer your questioning? Go have an imported beer and
celebrate. Quit looking outside of yourself for answers.
"Mike Henley" <mnhenley@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com...
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!! I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Please comment.
.
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| User: "Nivlem" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 10:56:31 AM |
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Mike Henley wrote:
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself.
Meaning? There isn't any. The important question is, is there anything
about life that you actually enjoy? And if there isn't, is there any
prospect that there will be? Is there anyone who is relying on you? If
yes to any of the above, who needs it to mean something? Go see Monty
Python's "The Meaning of Life" one or two times until you feel better.
Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!!
Same reason you appear to want to, I assume. Want for some sort of
psychological crutch. They doubtless do lots of compartmentalization and
doublethink.
I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction.
I am also troubled by psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Well, for one thing, it is often later found that the authors of such
studies have cooked the books in one way or another. The real issue is
having some sort of social network. There was a study of deaths arising
from a heatwave in Chicago. One of the major factors was neighborhoods
without any sense of community, allowing old people to get themselves
into trouble without anyone to check up on them or notice that they
hadn't been seen for a while.
Please comment.
.
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| User: "theBeaver" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 12:53:49 AM |
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Mike Henley wrote:
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!! I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Please comment.
According to Steven Pinker, how religious you are is pretty well
predicted by your genetic inheritance:
"'All traits are heritable' is a bit of an exaggeration, but not by
much. Concrete behavioral traits that patently depend on content
provided by home or culture are, of course, not heritable at all: which
language you speak, which religion you worship in, which political party
you belong to. But behavioral traits that reflect the underlying
talents and termperaments ARE heritable: how proficient with language
you are, how religious, how liberal or conservative." [The Blank Slate,
p.375]
If this is true, then your own religious leanings are probably rooted
in your genes, also. There is a strong argument from evolutionary
psychology that religious convictions will give you the strength and
commitment to risk your life to save your family and tribe, increasing
the probability of propagating your DNA, so it would not be surprising
if this relgious tendency is something shared to varying degrees by all
humans. Normal genetic variation also would account for hardcore
atheists, of course.
I've read that existentialist anxiety increased in the modern era
(after Darwin) once there was substantial evidence that we are just one
branch in the tree of life and related to all the other fornicating
creatures that grub around for food just so they can continue to
fornicate. Not a pretty picture. Previously, the world order was
pretty well defined, and humans sat right up there with God, made in his
image, sharing His passions, destined to live eternally with Him. (Now
that is really self-aggrandizing stuff, imagining you're the apple of
the eye of the almighty Creator of the Universe, isn't it?) These days,
our evolved capacities for logic and problem solving are in conflict
with our other impulses: Logic tells us our passions are subjective and
meaningless, and the problem seems to have no solution in spite of our
best efforts to find one.
But can you, or anyone who intellectually understands how baseless
formal religion is, ever be successful at rejoining religion? Can you
lie to yourself so thoroughly, or forget so completely, that you could
ever sleep soundly? I don't think you can. (Not that I'm presuming you
can sleep soundly, now.)
I personally feel compelled to accept the truth even though it makes me
unhappy. (Let me confess that I secretly harbor a belief that truth
will eventually produce some kind of fruit. By nurturing this probable
delusion, I avoid total despair and self-destruction.) Note that the
nature of Truth is that it does not always please us.
Theists believe that real truth leads ultimately to happiness. Since
there clearly can be no happiness if life must end ignominiously,
therefore there must be eternal life and a God that makes it possible
(or at least believable). Their unstated, underlying premise is the
same as the philosopher's underlying premise. Per Bertrand Russell:
"Philosophy, as opposed to science, springs from a kind of
self-assertion: a belief that our purposes have an important relation
to the purposes of the universe, and that, in the long run, the course
of events is bound to be, on the whole, such as we should wish."
You seem bound to the same belief, when you say: "I am also troubled
by psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than those
who don't." So you're thinking that there must be some truth there,
right? Since real truth equals happiness?
Something like 7% or less of members of the academy of science believe
in a personal god, so it seems that scientific education and
intelligence in the modern era don't correlate too well with religious
belief. You seem to be looking to this 7% for some credible scientific
way out of this atheistic syndrome, but you won't find it. That's why
they're in the minority, after all.
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 06:09:14 AM |
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Morning Mike,
My parents tried to raise my 3 siblings and yours truely lutheran however
none of us mindlessly followed the drones and all four of us are atheists.
I understand certain milestones in life are "hard" i.e. 30 for myself and my
wife, 40 for a sister and brother. One habit that westerners usually do vs.
those in the east tend to look "outside" for meaning in life. Once in a
great while I might catch myself also saying "what if..?" and then I
followup with the question "what if...what?" "What if Zeus, Zoraster, Baal,
Isis, Osiris, Quetzequatal <sp?>, Oden, Athena (what a babe rrrrow <wolf
call>, Dionysis (hic up mmmm wine), Apollo, Allah....etc...are real?" I
turn on the science channel for a quick fix of reality and I am brought back
to my comfortable spot of lack of beliefs in any theism.
I do not, repeat, do not work for Amazon.com, however, if you ever have a
few dollars, yen, pesos, EU, Canadian moolah...etc, then take a look at a
very good book from Steve Hagen called Buddhism Plain and simple. It is not
religious at all (as Buddhism is NOT a religion only a philosophy...screw
you idiots who have perverted it into a religion).
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767903323/qid=1088247122/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4720890-5874425?v=glance&s=books
This book really helps bring me "back to earth" when I suddenly get all
wierd and materialistic i.e. U.S. advertising etc.
ha ha ha, while writing this I am listening to the all 80s channel on Winamp
(no I do not own their stock) and...yuck John Cougar Mellencamp is singing
"Small Town" and he just said "...taught to fear Jesus in a small town..."
and I have to laugh about why would anyone want to fear a person who is
supposed to be all loving....oh yea, plus the word "taught" equals "you'll
believe this because I said so..."
Ok so I am rambling....so (read another post if you do not like it)
Back to your questions: Hmmm afterlife question. Yep would be nice, not
going to happen though from what I have seen so far. Near death experiences
are easily explained biologically, there are thousands of afterlife theories
for all of the different religions. The mere fact that there are thousands
of religions all claiming to be the truth should be enough for anyone with
two neurons to question "wait a minute...".
"Count your blessings..." one, two, three....oooops, that wasn't a blessing
because Athena was not paying attention. Oden, will you bless me already!"
There are no blessings, good and bad comes and goes people just see the good
parts as a "blessing" and the bad parts as "evil" done to them. Kind of
like when someone survives a car crash and they said that their god was on
their side or looking out for them while an equally religious person in the
smaller car gets splattered over the highway and what do we say for them?
Usually people say "it was their time..." I say "wrong place, wrong time,
stupid drunk driver" for the person who survived "right place, bigger car,
airbags...etc and not some silly supernatural looking out for them". In
monotheism, you need to blame the same deity for the good and the bad which
you will never see in the monotheistic religions because it then makes their
deity not all loving.
Crap, I'm rambling again, sorry.
There is zero medical research, accredited that it is as I'm sure you can
find some church who paid some doctor somewhere to say some drivel, for any
spiritual belief affecting a persons life in the notion that it extends that
said life. I would also love to have a definition as to what they mean by a
"better" life because I have some in laws who are "Ninja Religious" and they
are dirt poor, alcoholic, abusive to their children, and extremely unhappy.
I read one of those "medical" reports that you probably read as well. They
fail to mention that their test was not a blind or double blind study and,
oh yea, how many of those who die are also extremely religious. Hmmmm they
always forget that point.
Instead of looking outside for "something" look inside and say "Holy crap
(doesn't stink as much I guess), I am a descent person, I do not hurt
others, I do not hurt animals (You better not or I will kick your *****), I am
not quick to judge others and I am a super duper Liberal who will vote for
John Kerry in Novemb....DOOH! there I go again....sorry :)
Mark
"Mike Henley" <mnhenley@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com...
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!! I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Please comment.
.
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| User: "Mike Henley" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 10:05:50 PM |
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"Mark" <mlind2@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message news:<uPcDc.163511$DG4.74639@fe2.columbus.rr.com>...
I do not, repeat, do not work for Amazon.com, however, if you ever have a
few dollars, yen, pesos, EU, Canadian moolah...etc, then take a look at a
very good book from Steve Hagen called Buddhism Plain and simple. It is not
religious at all (as Buddhism is NOT a religion only a philosophy...screw
you idiots who have perverted it into a religion).
Hi... i'm quite familiar with Buddhism, Zen, Toaism... etc. I have
probably hundreds of books, many at advanced level, and even travelled
to the Far East many years ago.
.
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 09:33:39 AM |
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On 25 Jun 2004 17:32:08 -0700, (Mike Henley) in news
message <6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com> wrote:
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
They *are useful fables. They offer comfort and explanations for the
tragedies and vagaries of life. They offer answers when there are no
answers to be had, and establish a framework of cultural behavior that
can make an individual feel like he belongs to a larger context of
life. Although the explanations rarely explain anything, they offer
answers when no answers are to be had thereby decreasing anxiety.
"Goddidit" can be the answer to any question and such an answer can
keep a person functioning during times of stress.
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
Many people are very uncomfortable with the notion of nonexistence,
and look for reasons to deny that they, too, will eventually achieve
that state.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!!
The reasons that other individuals believe are unimportant to me. A
scientist may have a personal or cultural need to believe in GodŽ and
yet have the ability to compartmentalize his religion and career in a
way so that they do not conflict with each other. The argument from
authority in areas other than which one has special knowledge is a
logical fallacy. Simply because an person is a physicist or geologist
does not mean that he also has expertise in the area of knowledge of
the existence of GodŽ. Scientists are human just like the rest of us.
While they share the trait with atheists in being more comfortable
than theists in admitting that they do not know all the answers, that
does not mean that some of them won't accept the supernatural
"goddidit" in certain areas of their lives while pursuing natural
explanations to the unknown in others.
I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
I have no idea why these notions trouble you. You seem to be looking
for comfort in easy absolutist beliefs, but I may be totally mistaken
in my assessment. That's something that you need to determine for
yourself.
Liz #658 BAAWA
One of the principal differences between science and religion
is that science acknowledges that it is the creation of humankind
and, thus, welcomes correction. Religion does not and cannot. --
George Ricker
.
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| User: "Mike Henley" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 10:01:15 PM |
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Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<n7vqd0hcu7jc1nhj88cqk6v0gsi9lpu60u@4ax.com>...
They *are useful fables. They offer comfort and explanations for the
tragedies and vagaries of life. They offer answers when there are no
answers to be had, and establish a framework of cultural behavior that
can make an individual feel like he belongs to a larger context of
life. Although the explanations rarely explain anything, they offer
answers when no answers are to be had thereby decreasing anxiety.
"Goddidit" can be the answer to any question and such an answer can
keep a person functioning during times of stress.
You see, the question is if it's a natural tendency in mankind to seek
a notion of God, say, probably as a conceptual extension of his
prolonged parenting experience, then i'm not entirely sure why it'd be
necessary to deny a natural need that seems to serve a biological
purpose. In a given situation even the most ardent atheist will employ
a variety of psychological defences, from projection to denial to
splitting to identification to rationalization... etc. Being atheist
is not a recipe for 100% honesty with oneself and many atheists I've
known, myself included, where not any less neurotic than the religious
ones. I think any honest enough person with enough insight would be
able to clearly see that sustaining honesty and insight with oneself
is immensely difficult if not impossible and that even at the best of
times we are far from being completely so. In the vein i also do not
believe that we have the capacity to be "logical" with certainty.
I do not believe that a personality can not persist through dementia
or head injury yet a person is said to survive death. My tendency is
to believe that the biological is all there is and I do not believe in
a soul, a past life, an afterlife, a judgement day, a God, or anything
like that for which a simple psychological explanation exists for the
emergence of such a concept. I am bothered though by what Jung is
quoted to have said in calling it a fashionable stupidity to regard
things he can't explain as nonexistent.
The question is how to live a life. If living with religion means I'll
have a more meaningful and satisfacory life then be it.
And as for the "there's no meaning to life" viewpoint, i do not mean
meaning as a universal raison d'etre, but meaning as a personal,
practical purpose. I have personally at certain periods experienced
living with a "meaning" and at others without, and it's clear to me
which period was better. And no, not the kind of meaning you get out
of reading a self-help or career-guidance book or course, but a
somewhat more consistent and consonant one. And "joy" or "happiness"
are certainly not good enough.
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
Many people are very uncomfortable with the notion of nonexistence,
and look for reasons to deny that they, too, will eventually achieve
that state.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!!
The reasons that other individuals believe are unimportant to me. A
scientist may have a personal or cultural need to believe in GodŽ and
yet have the ability to compartmentalize his religion and career in a
way so that they do not conflict with each other. The argument from
authority in areas other than which one has special knowledge is a
logical fallacy. Simply because an person is a physicist or geologist
does not mean that he also has expertise in the area of knowledge of
the existence of GodŽ. Scientists are human just like the rest of us.
While they share the trait with atheists in being more comfortable
than theists in admitting that they do not know all the answers, that
does not mean that some of them won't accept the supernatural
"goddidit" in certain areas of their lives while pursuing natural
explanations to the unknown in others.
I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
I have no idea why these notions trouble you. You seem to be looking
for comfort in easy absolutist beliefs, but I may be totally mistaken
in my assessment. That's something that you need to determine for
yourself.
Liz #658 BAAWA
One of the principal differences between science and religion
is that science acknowledges that it is the creation of humankind
and, thus, welcomes correction. Religion does not and cannot. --
George Ricker
.
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| User: "Liz" |
|
| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 10:30:43 PM |
|
|
On 26 Jun 2004 20:01:15 -0700, (Mike Henley) in news
message <6005702b.0406261901.731195cd@posting.google.com> wrote:
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<n7vqd0hcu7jc1nhj88cqk6v0gsi9lpu60u@4ax.com>...
They *are useful fables. They offer comfort and explanations for the
tragedies and vagaries of life. They offer answers when there are no
answers to be had, and establish a framework of cultural behavior that
can make an individual feel like he belongs to a larger context of
life. Although the explanations rarely explain anything, they offer
answers when no answers are to be had thereby decreasing anxiety.
"Goddidit" can be the answer to any question and such an answer can
keep a person functioning during times of stress.
You see, the question is if it's a natural tendency in mankind to seek
a notion of God, say, probably as a conceptual extension of his
prolonged parenting experience, then i'm not entirely sure why it'd be
necessary to deny a natural need that seems to serve a biological
purpose.
I don't think that religious belief is a natural tendency but rather a
cultural phenomenon, nor do I think that all natural tendencies are
necessarily useful. It may be a natural tendency for males to want to
mate with as many females as possible, but in human society, males are
constrained by social norms. In fact, religion plays a major role in
enforcing societal norms. There are many ways to decrease anxiety.
Believing in GodŽ is merely one of the more prevalent methods.
In a given situation even the most ardent atheist will employ
a variety of psychological defences, from projection to denial to
splitting to identification to rationalization... etc. Being atheist
is not a recipe for 100% honesty with oneself and many atheists I've
known, myself included, where not any less neurotic than the religious
ones. I think any honest enough person with enough insight would be
able to clearly see that sustaining honesty and insight with oneself
is immensely difficult if not impossible and that even at the best of
times we are far from being completely so. In the vein i also do not
believe that we have the capacity to be "logical" with certainty.
Insight is personal. It usually isn't a function of one's religious
beliefs or lack thereof. Are you saying that since you do not feel
that you can be totally honest with yourself that you shouldn't even
strive for honesty? I'd rather try and fail than not even try. Of
course, I don't think that I have as much difficulty as you express in
being honest with myself. I'm quite comfortable with whom I am.
I do not believe that a personality can not persist through dementia
or head injury yet a person is said to survive death. My tendency is
to believe that the biological is all there is and I do not believe in
a soul, a past life, an afterlife, a judgement day, a God, or anything
like that for which a simple psychological explanation exists for the
emergence of such a concept. I am bothered though by what Jung is
quoted to have said in calling it a fashionable stupidity to regard
things he can't explain as nonexistent.
I, too, think it is stupid to regard things that we can't explain as
nonexistent. I reserve the nonexistent label for those things that
have no evidence to support the notion of their existence. Merely
unexplained things are relegated to the "I don't know" category. So
far there is no evidence to support the notion that a incorporeal
portion of a human being survives after the body has ceased
functioning. Death is not unexplained, and the symptoms are such that
even a child can recognize it. The notion of an afterlife is not an
unexplained phenomenon, but a supposition that has no evidence to
support its occurrence.
The question is how to live a life. If living with religion means I'll
have a more meaningful and satisfacory life then be it.
That's for you to decide. As for me, believing in a GodŽ is
impossible. Religion offers me nothing that I desire.
And as for the "there's no meaning to life" viewpoint, i do not mean
meaning as a universal raison d'etre, but meaning as a personal,
practical purpose. I have personally at certain periods experienced
living with a "meaning" and at others without, and it's clear to me
which period was better. And no, not the kind of meaning you get out
of reading a self-help or career-guidance book or course, but a
somewhat more consistent and consonant one. And "joy" or "happiness"
are certainly not good enough.
I can't help you here either. No one else can impose meaning on your
life. You must create it. I find joy and happiness quite good
enough, but to each his own.
Liz #658 BAAWA
Many people never grow up. They stay all their lives with
a passionate need for external authority and guidance,
pretending not to trust their own judgement. - Alan Watts
.
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| User: "Mike Henley" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 09:37:43 AM |
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Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<ueesd0tghnchdg8c2ms7q6kt1012krjvrk@4ax.com>...
On 26 Jun 2004 20:01:15 -0700, (Mike Henley) in news
message <6005702b.0406261901.731195cd@posting.google.com> wrote:
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<n7vqd0hcu7jc1nhj88cqk6v0gsi9lpu60u@4ax.com>...
I don't think that religious belief is a natural tendency but rather a
cultural phenomenon, nor do I think that all natural tendencies are
necessarily useful. It may be a natural tendency for males to want to
mate with as many females as possible, but in human society, males are
constrained by social norms. In fact, religion plays a major role in
enforcing societal norms. There are many ways to decrease anxiety.
Believing in GodŽ is merely one of the more prevalent methods.
Insight is personal. It usually isn't a function of one's religious
beliefs or lack thereof. Are you saying that since you do not feel
that you can be totally honest with yourself that you shouldn't even
strive for honesty? I'd rather try and fail than not even try. Of
course, I don't think that I have as much difficulty as you express in
being honest with myself. I'm quite comfortable with whom I am.
What I'm saying is that you will almost certainly fail to and that
even at the best of times when you think you are being honest with
yourself, the probability is that you're not. This is not exclusive to
me or a personal situation. I don't **individually** have an honesty
problem or difficulty. In fact, i could be at my most honest when i'm
aware that honesty is quite difficult. It is my experience that this
is common to all people I've known and the human situation.
That's for you to decide. As for me, believing in a GodŽ is
impossible. Religion offers me nothing that I desire.
I can't help you here either. No one else can impose meaning on your
life. You must create it. I find joy and happiness quite good
enough, but to each his own.
You see, if joy and happiness, as psychological states, are good
enough as a purpose then you will almost certainly not be honest with
yourself. This is not to say that either is bad, but just to say that
your psyche will employ whatever points of view necessary to
facilitate that, and i believe it does already even in people who
don't find joy and happiness good enough for a personal meaning,
myself included of course.
.
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 11:28:48 AM |
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On 27 Jun 2004 07:37:43 -0700, (Mike Henley) in news
message <6005702b.0406270637.948ff8a@posting.google.com> wrote:
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<ueesd0tghnchdg8c2ms7q6kt1012krjvrk@4ax.com>...
On 26 Jun 2004 20:01:15 -0700, (Mike Henley) in news
message <6005702b.0406261901.731195cd@posting.google.com> wrote:
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<n7vqd0hcu7jc1nhj88cqk6v0gsi9lpu60u@4ax.com>...
I don't think that religious belief is a natural tendency but rather a
cultural phenomenon, nor do I think that all natural tendencies are
necessarily useful. It may be a natural tendency for males to want to
mate with as many females as possible, but in human society, males are
constrained by social norms. In fact, religion plays a major role in
enforcing societal norms. There are many ways to decrease anxiety.
Believing in GodŽ is merely one of the more prevalent methods.
Insight is personal. It usually isn't a function of one's religious
beliefs or lack thereof. Are you saying that since you do not feel
that you can be totally honest with yourself that you shouldn't even
strive for honesty? I'd rather try and fail than not even try. Of
course, I don't think that I have as much difficulty as you express in
being honest with myself. I'm quite comfortable with whom I am.
What I'm saying is that you will almost certainly fail to and that
even at the best of times when you think you are being honest with
yourself, the probability is that you're not. This is not exclusive to
me or a personal situation. I don't **individually** have an honesty
problem or difficulty. In fact, i could be at my most honest when i'm
aware that honesty is quite difficult. It is my experience that this
is common to all people I've known and the human situation.
But you think that everyone else has an honesty problem. Strange.
That's for you to decide. As for me, believing in a GodŽ is
impossible. Religion offers me nothing that I desire.
I can't help you here either. No one else can impose meaning on your
life. You must create it. I find joy and happiness quite good
enough, but to each his own.
You see, if joy and happiness, as psychological states, are good
enough as a purpose then you will almost certainly not be honest with
yourself.
But, of course, you are honest with yourself as you stated above.
You fail to understand that the psychological state itself does not
provide the meaning. Instead the things that cause one to be happy or
have joy or feel fulfilled provide the meaning to life. The product
of happiness, contentment, satisfaction, or any other the other good
emotions are a good side effect of achieving meaning in one's life.
The meaning is different in everyone's life, but if the achievement of
meaning does not produce happiness or fulfillment, then I'd say that
your life is misdirected.
This is not to say that either is bad, but just to say that
your psyche will employ whatever points of view necessary to
facilitate that, and i believe it does already even in people who
don't find joy and happiness good enough for a personal meaning,
myself included of course.
You are projecting your personal views on other people who do not
share them. While you are quite probably not wrong about yourself,
you certainly can not honestly believe that everyone shares your point
of view. I, for one, do not.
If you think that believing in GodŽ will honestly produce meaning in
your life when there was no meaning when you did not believe, then go
for it. I can not make myself believe in something for which no
evidence exists. That would be dishonest.
Liz #658 BAAWA
Faith is a method designed to keep a person willfully ignorant of the odds
by arbitrarily assigning certainty where certainty is not justified. - Denis Loubet
.
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| User: "Mike Henley" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 06:45:59 PM |
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Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<2qttd0t39ik6p08amb20kp4ugprjf4hisb@4ax.com>...
Liz #658 BAAWA
This is descending into a futile argument and therefore i'll pass.
.
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 12:22:43 PM |
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On 27 Jun 2004 07:37:43 -0700, (Mike Henley) wrote:
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<ueesd0tghnchdg8c2ms7q6kt1012krjvrk@4ax.com>...
On 26 Jun 2004 20:01:15 -0700, (Mike Henley) in news
message <6005702b.0406261901.731195cd@posting.google.com> wrote:
Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<n7vqd0hcu7jc1nhj88cqk6v0gsi9lpu60u@4ax.com>...
(snip)
That's for you to decide. As for me, believing in a GodŽ is
impossible. Religion offers me nothing that I desire.
I can't help you here either. No one else can impose meaning on your
life. You must create it. I find joy and happiness quite good
enough, but to each his own.
You see, if joy and happiness, as psychological states, are good
enough as a purpose then you will almost certainly not be honest with
yourself.
This is not to say that either is bad, but just to say that
your psyche will employ whatever points of view necessary to
facilitate that, and i believe it does already even in people who
don't find joy and happiness good enough for a personal meaning,
myself included of course.
It seems to me that most people find 'meaning' in their lives by
following personal goals and/or building relationships with others.
Theists often think that they are pursuing 'the' universal goal (e.g.
To follow God, To be with God, To do God's will). Many feel these
goals are the ultimate meaning to life.
But this theist's idea of "meaning to life" seems to be without much
depth; Because this "meaning" doesn't tell us: what their God
actually is, or why their god exists or what is the ultimate
significance of their god.
From my perspective *all* the 'meanings to life' sound as if they
lack depth, and some of them don't sound like much fun either ;-).
It seems to me that what people mean by "something giving meaning
to their lives" is that:
It's something they wish to do and/or follow. And it occupies much of
their time and thoughts.
.... and that's just about all it means.
I don't see anything 'universally' significant in these 'meanings to
life'.
If making up a 'personal meaning' to your life strikes you as
inappropriate; then why not just try doing the things you enjoy
doing?
This is what many people do, anyway, by following their lifelong
goals. And it seems to be the natural human thing to do. :-)
And besides, what's the alternative:
Not trying to enjoy your life (?), suicide (?)
pan
.
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 06:19:07 AM |
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On 25 Jun 2004 17:32:08 -0700, (Mike Henley) wrote:
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
I consider my self a modern or 'common sense' skeptic who is also a
'weak' atheist.
'Modern' skepticism considers everything that lacks adequate evidence
suspect. 'Common sense' skeptics won't believe something unless they
have a good reason for believing it, and their belief will be
proportionate to the evidence.
In other words, If the balance of evidence indicated that a
particular god exists: I would believe in that god.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening.
You can easily make up grandiose sounding religious ideas to which
people could 'find' transcendental meaning in.
e.g. One could find "transcendental meaning" in believing that
kindness here on earth saves universes (in other dimensions) from
immanent danger.
But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God.
Why?! why do they?!!
Why are you troubled by this?
There will always be some intelligent and well educated people with
strange beliefs.
Look at all the well educated Germans who accepted Nazism during the
1930's & 40's.
I am also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction.
No one said that religions are not psychologically appealing.
Why do you think some of them have survived so long?
I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives
First off:
Atheism isn't about living a longer and happier life. From my
perspective: It's about trying to be honest with yourself.
If that's not good enough for you then don't be an atheist.
than those who don't.
What particular research are you referring to?
How do they define "better" lives?
What particular groups are they studying?
Even if these studies have legitimately reached the conclusions you've
stated, what is the significance of this?
Perhaps people who live well organized lives (due to spiritual
beliefs) and have a powerful coping mechanism to lean upon (i.e.
religion) do live longer, and feel they have better lives.
BTW How do they *know* their lives wouldn't be "better"as atheists or
agnostics?
So why are you troubled by this?
Are you saying that you fear that: Theists living a few extra years
is evidence of their god's existence. (?)
It's interesting to note that:
Christianity (at least from the perspective of the NT and early Church
history) does not promise a long and easy life here on earth; if
anything it says to expect just the opposite (if you are doing God's
will.)
pan
Please comment.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 08:54:14 PM |
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On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:32:08 -0700 in episode
<6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
mnhenley@msn.com (Mike Henley):
I am also troubled by psychological/medical research that
suggests those with spiritual beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier
and better lives than those who don't.
Studies also show that happy people are mildly delusional. For real.
About the only thing I'd have to say on such matters is this: humans have
*always been the source of "meaning" and "purpose." So to the extent the
religious have such things, it means humans can and do create them. The
difference is the religious have theirs handed to them. An atheist has to
do the work himself. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing given that the
priest classes who hand out the meaning and purpose to the religious
aren't necessarily giving out something which is in the interests of the
recipient.
The universe is going to be impersonal and "meaningless" either way. You
can run from it if you want but that won't change that the universe is
what it is. This is just the way it's *always been. That we humans have
any concept of "meaning" and "purpose" means we create those things. So
you have to, well, create them.
(Yeah, easier said than done but it's the only game in town)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington.
That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington
has known and fully knows what [the neo-conservative]
agenda was and what they were trying to do."
[Retired General Anthony Zinni]
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| User: "AnotherObserverŽ" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 11:32:57 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <inv@lid_email.no> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:32:08 -0700 in episode
<6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
mnhenley@msn.com (Mike Henley):
I am also troubled by psychological/medical research that
suggests those with spiritual beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier
and better lives than those who don't.
Studies also show that happy people are mildly delusional. For real.
Rectifying the delusion can be damaging too, if the person isn't up to
the challenge. Apparently this is why there's a growing epidemic of
zombifying medications being prescribed.
--
Davidwd
~~~~~~~~~
Posting group: alt.atheism
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
27 Jun 2004 06:41:33 AM |
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On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:54:14 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo" <inv@lid_email.no>
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:32:08 -0700 in episode
<6005702b.0406251632.74868460@posting.google.com> we saw our hero
mnhenley@msn.com (Mike Henley):
I am also troubled by psychological/medical research that
suggests those with spiritual beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier
and better lives than those who don't.
Studies also show that happy people are mildly delusional. For real.
Right. I was happy. Until I read this. :-(
Thank you. More good news to report?
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: A question to fellow atheists |
26 Jun 2004 12:34:11 AM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Mike Henley:
Christian preachers... please stay away.
Fellow atheists,
I'm hitting a major life milestone soon (A big 0), and i'm finding it
somewhat hard to sustain a meaning for myself. Part of my difficulty
is that i wasn't brought up an atheist, albeit far from a religious
upbringing. Over time I have investigated various religious and
spiritual paths, and found myself drifting into agnosticism
increasingly. For the past few years though, I must say i've been
leaning to the determinately atheistic persuasion. Why? because it's
immensely hard to be persuaded by anything religious if you're willing
to keep an open mind.
Religious teachings are no more than fables to me. (That anyone would
actually believe in something like an Ark of Noah as a real event
amazes me! equally so is that anyone would cite God (as something real
and not as a social convention) as a source of authority; what is
God?!! If only they realized how ludicrous something like "God wants
us to.." sounds.) But the problem often is that they have at times
seemed like useful fables (although i clearly see how they're not).
The notion of an afterlife, for example, as offering a transcendental
meaning, i find enlightening. But i can not, whatsoever now,
wholeheartedly believe in it as anything more than a fable, and it's
somewhat difficult to use as such.
I am also somewhat troubled by the few men in science, and i have met
a few though a minority, who believe in God. Why?! why do they?!! I am
also troubled at times by things in religion that I find comforting
such as "counting your blessings", though i can probably do that
without religious conviction. I am also troubled by
psychological/medical research that suggests those with spiritual
beliefs have, generally speaking, healthier and better lives than
those who don't.
Please comment.
Stop wondering why, and start wondering how. Hang out here and watch
religious arguments fall apart under scrutiny. Your big "0" is just a
number. As that number grows, one grows tired. I for one am quite happy
it all comes to an end, and we don't have to go through the hardships of
life for all eternity. Enjoy what you have, though.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
______________
It's my funeral and I'll fry if I want to...
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