Religions > Atheism > A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
09 Dec 2005 12:59:27 PM |
| Object: |
A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
Rodney Stark's latest book, The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led
to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success (Random House, 2005), is
scheduled for publication next Tuesday. It's a useful corrective for
folks in Austin, Boston, and other blue spots who think of Christianity
and rationalism as opposite historical forces and philosophical
concepts. The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
WORLD: How is Christianity unique in emphasizing the idea of progress?
STARK: The other great faiths either taught that the world is locked in
endless cycles or that it is inevitably declining from a previous
Golden Age. Only Christians believed that God's gift of reason made
progress inevitable-theological as well as technical progress. Thus,
Augustine (ca. 354-430) flatly asserted that through the application of
reason we will gain an increasingly more accurate understanding of God,
remarking that although there were "certain matters pertaining to the
doctrine of salvation that we cannot yet grasp . . . one day we shall
be able to do so."
Nor was the Christian belief in progress limited to theology. Augustine
went on at length about the "wonderful-one might say
stupefying-advances human industry has made" and attributed all this
to the "unspeakable boon" that God has conferred upon His creation, a
"rational nature." These views were repeated again and again through
the centuries. Especially typical were these words preached by Fra
Giordano in Florence in 1306: "Not all the arts have been found; we
shall never see an end to finding them."
WORLD: But a lot of us learned that Europe fell into the "Dark Ages."
How did that historical understanding originate, and what's wrong with
it?
STARK: The Dark Ages have finally been recognized as a hoax perpetrated
by anti-religious and bitterly anti-Catholic, 18th-century
intellectuals who were determined to assert their cultural superiority
and who boosted their claim by denigrating the Christian past-as
Gibbon put it in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, after Rome
came the "triumph of barbarism and religion." In the past few years
even encyclopedias and dictionaries have begun to acknowledge that it
was all a lie, that the Dark Ages never were. This always should have
been obvious since by the end of the so-called Dark Ages, European
science and technology had far exceeded that of Rome and Greece, and
all the rest of the world, for that matter.
WORLD: Could you be specific? What were some of the "Dark Ages"
innovations that show the folly of considering Greek and Roman culture
the apex of civilization until recent times?
STARK: How about the perfection and widespread use of waterwheels,
windmills, and pumps, the invention of the compass, stirrups, the
crossbow, canons, effective horse harnesses, eyeglasses, clocks,
chimneys, violins, double-entry bookkeeping, and insurance? This list
doesn't begin to do justice to this era that historians of science now
refer to as an age of remarkable innovation and discovery.
Perhaps the most revealing instance involves the "story" that in order
to gain backing for his great voyage west, Columbus had to struggle
against ignorant and superstitious churchmen who were certain that the
earth was flat. Truth was that all educated Europeans, including
bishops and cardinals, knew the earth was round. What produced church
opposition to the Columbus voyage was that Columbus believed the
circumference of the earth was only about one-fifth of its actual
distance. Thus, the church scholars who opposed him did so because they
knew that he and his sailors were bound to perish at sea. And they
would have done so had the Western Hemisphere not been there to
replenish their food and water.
WORLD: So Christians were pro-science, but you suggest that the Muslim
conception of God held back the rise of science in the Islamic world?
STARK: Allah was not conceived of as creator of a universe governed by
"natural" rules, in contrast with the prevailing Christian conception
of Jehovah as the Great Clockmaker. Instead, their image of Allah
encouraged Muslims to focus their attention on interpreting divine laws
governing human behavior, not to search for the divine "secrets" that
govern the universe.
WORLD: You say the Christian doctrine that sin is a personal
responsibility made a difference in the extension of liberty and
economic opportunity in the early modern era.
STARK: The admonition "Go and sin no more" is absurd if we are mere
captives of our fate. Christianity teaches that we have free will and
therefore must be relatively free of compulsions. This theological
insight led directly to doctrines that opposed repressive states,
slavery, and other forms of exploitation and in favor of private
property and freedom of conscience. These freedoms often were not
achieved, but their clear basis in Christian doctrines did result in
some relatively free, early European societies, initially in the
medieval Italian city-states, and in the eventual spread of democracy.
WORLD: You argue that the problems of the Spanish empire display, among
others things, the disadvantages of having a state church. How?
STARK: In two primary ways. First of all, a "kept" church is lazy. When
clergy do not rely on the laity for their support, they tend to neglect
their pastoral duties. In the case of the Spanish church, because
everyone was by law a Roman Catholic, nothing needed to be done to
convert them or even to attract them to Mass. In fact, the state
collected the church tithes so the clergy had no need to bestir
themselves even for money. And that's why until very recently most
people in Latin America were only nominal Christians, if that.
The second great shortcoming of state churches is that they are
captives of their political rulers. By treaty the King of Spain chose
all bishops and cardinals, not only in Spain, but in the empire.
Moreover, no church pronouncements, including papal bulls, could be
published in any Spanish area without prior consent of the king. As a
result a whole series of 15th- and 16th-century papal condemnations of
slavery were unknown in Spain and Latin America and were ignored by
historians until the past decade or so.
State interference in religious affairs was not unique to Spain.
Whether ruled by despots or merely by politicians, where there is a
state church the state can never keep itself from interfering in
religious affairs. In Scandinavia, where Lutheran state churches
prevail, parliaments revise doctrines and even concern themselves with
details such as the contents of hymn books. Indeed, in Sweden pastors
of the state church (and of other churches as well) are now prohibited
from reading in public any portion of the Bible that is critical of
homosexuality.
WORLD: You've emphasized in your writing the advantages of church
competition and religious entrepreneurship. Are those advantages also
contributing to the recent growth of Christianity in Latin America,
Africa, and China?
STARK: In 1881-82 William F. Bainbridge, a prominent American Baptist,
visited all American Protestant overseas missions (in those days they
were still all coastal and easily reached). He found that in some
places the denominations had cut up an area and granted each group an
exclusive mission field, but in other places all the denominations
competed for converts. He observed that the missionaries were far more
successful where they competed. This remains the case. Consider that
for centuries Roman Catholics had an exclusive right to missionize
Latin America, at the end of which most of the continent was
unchurched. Then Protestant missionaries were allowed to enter. The
result has been not only the conversion of millions to active
Protestantism, but also to so greatly revive Roman Catholicism that it
now is growing, too. Meanwhile, the Christianization of Africa is being
accomplished by hundreds of competing denominations, most of African
origins.
WORLD: What do you think the shape of Christianity will be in 2050?
STARK: By then Christianity may well be the dominant religion in China.
Latin Americans probably will be as churched as North Americans. Africa
will be more than half Christian. As for Europe, it will be well along
in a major revival of religion, one way or the other: Christian or
Islamic.
.
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| User: "Nightshade" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
11 Dec 2005 06:31:13 AM |
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On 10 Dec 2005 03:07:52 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
History has shown it to be the xtian answer.
What do you want, one rule for xtians, and a different one for the
rest.
....Silly question, of course that is what you want
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
11 Dec 2005 03:50:23 PM |
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Nightshade wrote:
On 10 Dec 2005 03:07:52 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burden.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
History has shown it to be the xtian answer.
History has shown it to be the answer for both Christianity and
Judaism. The principle comes from the Old Testament Mosaic Law. Islam
is, historically, more tolerant of other religions. Strange, isn't it?
What do you want, one rule for xtians, and a different one for the
rest.
Why are you afraid of criticizing Judaism and Islam?
But the biggest mass-murderer of all is Atheism, as implemented in
Marxist Communism.
TCross
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 10:11:55 AM |
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On 11 Dec 2005 13:50:23 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Nightshade wrote:
On 10 Dec 2005 03:07:52 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burden.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
History has shown it to be the xtian answer.
History has shown it to be the answer for both Christianity and
Judaism. The principle comes from the Old Testament Mosaic Law. Islam
is, historically, more tolerant of other religions. Strange, isn't it?
Islam was, to a limited degree, tolerant of Christians and Jews. It
allowed the ones in their territory to keep on living, but they were
not allowed to try to convert anybody, and their legal status was
inferior to Moslems. Members of other religions had to convert or
they were killed. It is rather hard to call any of that tolerant in
any real sense.
What do you want, one rule for xtians, and a different one for the
rest.
Why are you afraid of criticizing Judaism and Islam?
Why do you think that is so?
But the biggest mass-murderer of all is Atheism, as implemented in
Marxist Communism.
That is as rational as saying that people with mustaches are mass
murderers. After all both Hitler and Stalin had them.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "Nightshade" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 09:19:47 AM |
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On 11 Dec 2005 13:50:23 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
History has shown it to be the xtian answer.
History has shown it to be the answer for both Christianity and
Judaism. The principle comes from the Old Testament Mosaic Law. Islam
is, historically, more tolerant of other religions. Strange, isn't it?
Irrelevant, we are only discussing xtianity.
What do you want, one rule for xtians, and a different one for the
rest.
Why are you afraid of criticizing Judaism and Islam?
Why are you so keen to implicate judaism, and islam?
Do you think it will make you look less guilty?
But the biggest mass-murderer of all is Atheism, as implemented in
Marxist Communism.
You are talking through your arse
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
11 Dec 2005 11:15:20 PM |
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On 10 Dec 2005 03:07:52 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
Then when you mock the religions that would "kill all heretics," you
have absolutely no moral altitude. You are at heart, the same.
Again you prove that Atheism is just one more religion.
Would it be reasonable for me to make hugely negative assumptions
regarding the nature of Christianity based on a single comment by a
single individual?
If not, why is it reasonable for you to do that with atheism?
Mephisto
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 12:46:56 AM |
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Mephisto wrote:
On 10 Dec 2005 03:07:52 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
Then when you mock the religions that would "kill all heretics," you
have absolutely no moral altitude. You are at heart, the same.
Again you prove that Atheism is just one more religion.
Would it be reasonable for me to make hugely negative assumptions
regarding the nature of Christianity based on a single comment by a
single individual?
If not, why is it reasonable for you to do that with atheism?
A plea for peace, is it? At every opportunity we hear the same:
Christianity, they say, is a bloodthirsty, mass-murdering ... And they
wish all Christians immediate and painful death.
But then we show them some of the terror that Atheism has wrought in
the world. And then they start to wriggle and deny history. For not
just one would be a killer, but many, including others who contributed
to the thread today. And it is not just wannabe's but real Atheist
murderers, too. And not just small-minded killers, but the greatest
killers in all of history - and they were Atheist.
But the accusation comes again and again that Christians are killers.
And while the accusers do not rest, we will not rest.
TCross
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 01:35:01 AM |
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On 11 Dec 2005 22:46:56 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 10 Dec 2005 03:07:52 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
Then when you mock the religions that would "kill all heretics," you
have absolutely no moral altitude. You are at heart, the same.
Again you prove that Atheism is just one more religion.
Would it be reasonable for me to make hugely negative assumptions
regarding the nature of Christianity based on a single comment by a
single individual?
If not, why is it reasonable for you to do that with atheism?
A plea for peace, is it?
Is what a plea for peace? I simply asked you a question.
At every opportunity we hear the same:
Christianity, they say, is a bloodthirsty, mass-murdering ... And they
wish all Christians immediate and painful death.
Prove it. Show me all of these posts where atheists have wished all
Christians an immediate and painful death.
But then we show them some of the terror that Atheism has wrought in
the world. And then they start to wriggle and deny history.
I have not seen anyone denying history. You are making unsupportable
claims - that is why people are challenging what you say. If you had
restricted yourself to the truth - that *some* atheists have committed
atrocities just as some Christians have, I doubt anyone would have
argued.
For not
just one would be a killer, but many, including others who contributed
to the thread today.
That is a dreadful accusation - can you back it up?
And it is not just wannabe's but real Atheist
murderers, too. And not just small-minded killers, but the greatest
killers in all of history - and they were Atheist.
You can not back up that claim. Christian leaders have killed many,
many millions of people in the last 2000 years. Muslim leaders have
done the same. They continue to do so every day. Atheists have killed
too, but rarely on the same scale. Any half-decent history book would
confirm this.
But the accusation comes again and again that Christians are killers.
And while the accusers do not rest, we will not rest.
You did not answer my question.
Would it be reasonable for me to make hugely negative assumptions
regarding the nature of Christianity based on a single comment by a
single individual? If not, why is it reasonable for you to do the
same with atheism?
You have accused me of having 'no moral altitude' by saying that all
atheists are 'the same'. What are you basing this on? What have I said
that enables you to conclude that I want all Christians to die a
painful death?
Mephisto
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 01:54:17 AM |
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Mephisto wrote:
On 11 Dec 2005 22:46:56 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 10 Dec 2005 03:07:52 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousand=
s of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
Then when you mock the religions that would "kill all heretics," you
have absolutely no moral altitude. You are at heart, the same.
Again you prove that Atheism is just one more religion.
Would it be reasonable for me to make hugely negative assumptions
regarding the nature of Christianity based on a single comment by a
single individual?
If not, why is it reasonable for you to do that with atheism?
A plea for peace, is it?
Is what a plea for peace? I simply asked you a question.
At every opportunity we hear the same:
Christianity, they say, is a bloodthirsty, mass-murdering ... And they
wish all Christians immediate and painful death.
Prove it. Show me all of these posts where atheists have wished all
Christians an immediate and painful death.
But then we show them some of the terror that Atheism has wrought in
the world. And then they start to wriggle and deny history.
I have not seen anyone denying history. You are making unsupportable
claims - that is why people are challenging what you say. If you had
restricted yourself to the truth - that *some* atheists have committed
atrocities just as some Christians have, I doubt anyone would have
argued.
For not
just one would be a killer, but many, including others who contributed
to the thread today.
That is a dreadful accusation - can you back it up?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.messianic
From: "L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr" <phyl...@hsotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:34:24 GMT
Local: Sun, Dec 11 2005 1:34 am
Subject: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World
For The Better
MarkA <t...@nowhere.com> astounded us with:
news:pan.2005.12.10.04.16.19.438745@nowhere.com:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
--
L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attach=E9
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.messianic
From: MarkA <t...@nowhere.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:16:21 -0500
Local: Fri, Dec 9 2005 8:16 pm
Subject: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World
For The Better
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
And it is not just wannabe's but real Atheist
murderers, too. And not just small-minded killers, but the greatest
killers in all of history - and they were Atheist.
You can not back up that claim. Christian leaders have killed many,
many millions of people in the last 2000 years. Muslim leaders have
done the same. They continue to do so every day. Atheists have killed
too, but rarely on the same scale. Any half-decent history book would
confirm this.
But the accusation comes again and again that Christians are killers.
And while the accusers do not rest, we will not rest.
You did not answer my question.
Would it be reasonable for me to make hugely negative assumptions
regarding the nature of Christianity based on a single comment by a
single individual? If not, why is it reasonable for you to do the
same with atheism?
You have accused me of having 'no moral altitude' by saying that all
atheists are 'the same'. What are you basing this on? What have I said
that enables you to conclude that I want all Christians to die a
painful death?
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
TCross
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| User: "Lörd Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 07:39:52 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Your argument is specious and misleading, typical of you.
May I suggest that (assuming) all three of these men had penises.
By your definition, it was done in the name of "men", nothing new there, if
you can't ***** it or control it, kill it, that's how it works, isn't it?
--
Lörd Phÿltêr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 08:25:00 PM |
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On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:39:52 GMT, "Lörd Phÿltêr"
<phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Your argument is specious and misleading, typical of you.
May I suggest that (assuming) all three of these men had penises.
By your definition, it was done in the name of "men", nothing new there, if
you can't ***** it or control it, kill it, that's how it works, isn't it?
He has been informed of his lies on many previous occasions, yet
chooses to continue to annoy those who are able to think clearly.
Killfile him immediately, is my advice.
.
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| User: "Root Worker" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 11:01:15 AM |
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One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this continent . . .
more accurately, we might say that the vast majority of people are SO
self-absorbed that they allow the evil among them to do whatever they want,
and even support their atrocities if it seems to further their own selfish
interests. As an example, just look at the morons in this country who
continue to support the Democrats and Republicans, which jointly represent
the most corrupt political machine in history.
Joe
http://www.rootwerx.com
"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Your argument is specious and misleading, typical of you.
May I suggest that (assuming) all three of these men had penises.
By your definition, it was done in the name of "men", nothing new there,
if
you can't ***** it or control it, kill it, that's how it works, isn't it?
--
Lörd Phÿltêr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 11:38:49 AM |
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Root Worker wrote:
"L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
Engish.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this continent . .=
=2E
Which had nothing to do with Christianity. But you will take the
broadest definition of Christianity and the narrowest definition of
Atheism, and the numbers still far and away show Atheism to be the
bloodiest religion.
more accurately, we might say that the vast majority of people are SO
self-absorbed that they allow the evil among them to do whatever they wan=
t,
and even support their atrocities if it seems to further their own selfish
interests. As an example, just look at the morons in this country who
continue to support the Democrats and Republicans, which jointly represent
the most corrupt political machine in history.
Which again has nothing to do with Christianity. Joe Lieberman is NOT
a Christian.
However, the US is not yet running "the most corrupt political machine
in history." That is a pointless exaggeration.
TCross
.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 05:58:24 PM |
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On 12 Dec 2005 09:38:49 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Root Worker wrote:
"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
Engish.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
As I have already pointed out to you, Stalin was not an atheist. He
attended mass. Can you provide some quotes or other proof that any of
the people you mentioned were killing 'in the service of atheism' or
is this just another of the accusations that you refuse to back up
with any facts?
One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this continent . . .
Which had nothing to do with Christianity. But you will take the
broadest definition of Christianity and the narrowest definition of
Atheism, and the numbers still far and away show Atheism to be the
bloodiest religion.
What numbers? I've asked you several times to provide some evidence to
back up your claims. You're basing your opinion on some numbers,
presumably? How many people have been killed in the name of religion?
How many wars have been started by Christian leaders? Muslim Jihads?
How many were killed in the Christian crusades in the Middle East? How
many did the Mongols kill in the name of god? How many French men,
women and children were murdered during the fourth crusade? How many
died in the former Yugoslavia as a result of religious disagreements?
The slaughter in Rwanda? The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots?
Charlemagne's Saxon massacres? The Christian slave trade? The English
massacres in Ireland in the name of god? The inquisitions?
There are countless examples of religiously-motivated genocide, all of
which you ignore in your desperate attempt to pass your bloodthirsty
cult off as a peaceful religion.
Mephisto
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 09:34:39 PM |
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Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 09:38:49 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Root Worker wrote:
"L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges through=
out
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
Engish.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
As I have already pointed out to you, Stalin was not an atheist. He
attended mass. Can you provide some quotes or other proof that any of
the people you mentioned were killing 'in the service of atheism' or
is this just another of the accusations that you refuse to back up
with any facts?
"Communism begins from the outset with atheism . . ." Karl Marx,
"Private
Property and Communism" in Marx: Economic and Philosophical
Manuscripts of
1844: Private Property and Communism." Trans. Martin Mulligan. Moscow:
Progress Publishers, 1959. Available at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/
"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc.,
that
are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal
truths,
it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting
them on
a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical
experience." Karl Marx and Frederich Engels, "The Manifesto of the
Communist Party," in Marx/Engels, "Selected Works," Volume One.
Trans:
Samuel Moore. Moscow: Progress Publishers, , pp. 98-137. Available
at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/
"The point is, therefore, to be more radical than everybody else as far
as
atheism is concerned. Fortunately it is easy enough to be an atheist
today."
And then later in the same essay: "This much is sure: the only service
that
can be rendered to God today is to declare atheism a compulsory article
of
faith and to outdo Bismarck's Kirchenkulturkampf laws by prohibiting
religion generally...." Frederich Engels. "Emigrant Literature II,"
1874,
in "Marx and Engels On Religion." trans. Andy Blunden. Moscow:
Progress
Publishers, 1957. Available at: http://www.marxists.org/archive/
"The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly
declared,
is dialectical materialism, which has fully taken over the historical
traditions of eighteenth-century materialism in France and of Feuerbach
(first half of the nineteenth century) in Germany-a materialism which
is
absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion." (From
V=2E I.
Lenin, "The Attitude of the Workers' Party to Religion." Originally
published in "Proletary," No. 45, May 13 (26), 1900. Published
according to
the text in Proletary. Source: Lenin, "Collected Works." Moscow:
Progress Publishers, 1973, Volume 15, pages 402-413. Available at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin
"Our Programme is based entirely on the scientific, and moreover the
materialist, world-outlook. An explanation of our Programme, therefore,
necessarily includes an explanation of the true historical and economic
roots of the religious fog. Our propaganda necessarily includes the
propaganda of atheism; the publication of the appropriate scientific
literature, which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto
strictly
forbidden and persecuted, must now form one of the fields of our Party
work." V. I. Lenin' "Socialism and Religion," Novaya Zhizn, No. 28,
December 3, 1905. Signed: N. Lenin. Published according to the text in
Novaya Zhizn. Source: Lenin Collected Works, Progress Publishers, 1965,
Moscow, Volume 10, pages 83-87. Available at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin
"Dialectical materialism is the world outlook of the Marxist-Leninist
party.
It is called dialectical materialism because its approach to the
phenomena
of nature, its method of studying and apprehending them, is
dialectical,
while its interpretation of the phenomena of nature, its conception of
these
phenomena, its theory, is materialistic." J. V. Stalin, "Dialectical
and
Historical Materialism." September 1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
"Historical materialism is the extension of the principles of
dialectical
materialism to the study of social life, an application of the
principles of
dialectical materialism to the phenomena of the life of society, to the
study of society and of its history." J. V. Stalin, "Dialectical and
Historical Materialism." September 1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
"Contrary to idealism, which denies the possibility of knowing the
world and
its laws, which does not believe in the authenticity of our knowledge,
does
not recognize objective truth, and holds that the world is full of
'things-in-themselves' that can never be known to science, Marxist
philosophical materialism holds that the world and its laws are fully
knowable, that our knowledge of the laws of nature, tested by
experiment and
practice, is authentic knowledge having the validity of objective
truth, and
that there are no things in the world which are unknowable, but only
things
which are as yet not known, but which will be disclosed and made known
by
the efforts of science and practice." J. V. Stalin, "Dialectical and
Historical Materialism." September 1938.
Available at http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/
"The history of science furnishes man with proof of the material nature
of
the world and of the fact that it is governed by laws and helps man to
see
the futility of the illusions of religion and idealism and to arrive at
materialist conclusions." Mao Zedong, "Dialectical materialism-notes
of
lectures"as published in K'ang-chan ta-hsueh, nos. 6 to 8, April to
June
1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
"Marx, Engels and Lenin all explained materialist dialectics as the
theory
of development." Mao Zedong, "Dialectical materialism-notes of
lectures"as
published in K'ang-chan ta-hsueh, nos. 6 to 8, April to June 1938.
Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
"Dialectical materialism's theory of movement is in opposition first of
all
with philosophical idealism and with the theological concepts of
religion.
The fundamental nature of all philosophical idealism and religious
theology
derives from their denial of the unity and material nature of the
world; and
in imagining that the movement and development of the world takes place
apart from matter, or took place at least in the beginning apart from
matter, and is the result of the action of spirit, God, or divine
forces."
Mao Zedong, "Dialectical materialism-notes of lectures"as published in
K'ang-chan ta-hsueh, nos. 6 to 8, April to June 1938. Available at
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/.
One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this continent =
.. . .
Which had nothing to do with Christianity. But you will take the
broadest definition of Christianity and the narrowest definition of
Atheism, and the numbers still far and away show Atheism to be the
bloodiest religion.
What numbers? I've asked you several times to provide some evidence to
back up your claims. You're basing your opinion on some numbers,
presumably? How many people have been killed in the name of religion?
Let's we start with 30,000,000 Kulacks the the Ukraine in the 1930s.
The Reign of Terror under Jean-Paul Marat in 1792-3. The Reign of
Terror under the Bolsheviks in Russia under the Bolsheviks. Pol Pot is
said to have killed between 3 and 7 million. The Maoists another 20 to
30 million, possibly as high as 50. The Shining Path, the Gulags in
Siberia, the purges under Lenin and under Stalin. The Kulaks, too,
died by the tens of thousands. The Christians in Russia and China, of
course. Look them up - they total 100 million or more.
How many wars have been started by Christian leaders? Muslim Jihads?
Many were small battles by comparison, thought they were called "wars."
How many were killed in the Christian crusades in the Middle East?
Oh, gracious. That number is so small, it hardly shows on the graph.
How
many did the Mongols kill in the name of god?
Whoop? No god involved for the Mongols. They were just happy
marauders.
How many French men,
women and children were murdered during the fourth crusade? How many
died in the former Yugoslavia as a result of religious disagreements?
I guess if you ever went to church, everything you did after that makes
your motives religious, eh? But still, not many compared to the
Communist massacres.
The slaughter in Rwanda?
Really, can you name the religions involved?
It was really a ethnic/cultural war.
The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots?
Charlemagne's Saxon massacres? The Christian slave trade? The English
massacres in Ireland in the name of god?
Hardly. The was the Empire and the crown.
The inquisitions?
Back to that tired old toddy. And still, small potatoes.
There are countless examples of religiously-motivated genocide,
Oh, no, they can be counted, and still the numbers are small by
comparison.
all of
which you ignore in your desperate attempt to pass your bloodthirsty
cult off as a peaceful religion.
And what is MY cult, you who call yourself "Mephisto?"
What a joke.
TCross
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
13 Dec 2005 03:18:38 AM |
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On 12 Dec 2005 19:34:39 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 09:38:49 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Root Worker wrote:
"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
Engish.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
As I have already pointed out to you, Stalin was not an atheist. He
attended mass. Can you provide some quotes or other proof that any of
the people you mentioned were killing 'in the service of atheism' or
is this just another of the accusations that you refuse to back up
with any facts?
"Communism begins from the outset with atheism . . ." Karl Marx,
"Private
Why does Marx get to define atheism? It really makes no difference
what Marx thought. Atheism is still only a lack of belief in a deity,
and you are still a liar.
sip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
|
| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 11:35:05 PM |
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On 12 Dec 2005 19:34:39 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 09:38:49 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Root Worker wrote:
"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
Engish.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
As I have already pointed out to you, Stalin was not an atheist. He
attended mass. Can you provide some quotes or other proof that any of
the people you mentioned were killing 'in the service of atheism' or
is this just another of the accusations that you refuse to back up
with any facts?
Now try answering my question without cutting and pasting irrelevant
trash. You make the beliefs of Marx and Engels clear - how many people
did they kill?
You have still provided precisely nothing on the religious beliefs of
Stalin. You have also provided no proof that all of the people killing
others in Communist regimes were atheists (which they most certainly
were not), or that a single death was conducted on behalf of atheism.
They were communists (although most of them did not actually believe
in the communism outlined by Marx), and their reasons for murdering
millions of people had nothing to do with atheism.
One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this continent . . .
Which had nothing to do with Christianity. But you will take the
broadest definition of Christianity and the narrowest definition of
Atheism, and the numbers still far and away show Atheism to be the
bloodiest religion.
What numbers? I've asked you several times to provide some evidence to
back up your claims. You're basing your opinion on some numbers,
presumably? How many people have been killed in the name of religion?
Let's we start with 30,000,000 Kulacks the the Ukraine in the 1930s.
The Reign of Terror under Jean-Paul Marat in 1792-3. The Reign of
Terror under the Bolsheviks in Russia under the Bolsheviks. Pol Pot is
said to have killed between 3 and 7 million. The Maoists another 20 to
30 million, possibly as high as 50. The Shining Path, the Gulags in
Siberia, the purges under Lenin and under Stalin. The Kulaks, too,
died by the tens of thousands. The Christians in Russia and China, of
course. Look them up - they total 100 million or more.
How many have been killed by religious regimes? And what are your
sources for the 100 million figure?
How many wars have been started by Christian leaders? Muslim Jihads?
Many were small battles by comparison, thought they were called "wars."
How many have been killed by religious regimes?
How many were killed in the Christian crusades in the Middle East?
Oh, gracious. That number is so small, it hardly shows on the graph.
You don't regard millions of dead people as being significant as long
as it's Christians doing the killing? Thousands of massacres?
How
many did the Mongols kill in the name of god?
Whoop? No god involved for the Mongols. They were just happy
marauders.
Wrong. Genghis Khan claimed to be doing the work of god. He told the
people of Bukhara that god had sent him as a punishment. Guyug Khan
said that god had given the Mongols control of the world. They
butchered in the name of god.
How many French men,
women and children were murdered during the fourth crusade? How many
died in the former Yugoslavia as a result of religious disagreements?
I guess if you ever went to church, everything you did after that makes
your motives religious, eh? But still, not many compared to the
Communist massacres.
How many?
The fourth crusade was ordered by the Pope on religious grounds so
your apologist excuses are misplaced. Hundreds of thousands of men,
women and children massacred because they did not agree with the
religious beliefs of the Pope.
The slaughter in Rwanda?
Really, can you name the religions involved?
Predominantly Catholics with machetes.
One million dead in the massacres which were religiously motivated. Is
that insignificant to you as well?
It was really a ethnic/cultural war.
But the massacres conducted in Russia and China were not
culturally/ethnically motivated? Your argument is crumbling.
The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots?
Charlemagne's Saxon massacres? The Christian slave trade? The English
massacres in Ireland in the name of god?
Hardly. The was the Empire and the crown.
Which one? The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots? That was purely
religious in motive. Catholics have a long history of murdering anyone
who disagees with them. Same goes for Charlemagne - he murdered
thousands at a time just for belonging to another religion and not
converting. The slave trade was conducted almost entirely by Christian
countries. The English massacres in Ireland were also entirely
religiously motivated. There are many examples of English soldiers
killing Irish Catholics purely because they were Catholics. The same
happened in England - Protestant monarchs had Catholics murdered and
vice versa.
The inquisitions?
Back to that tired old toddy. And still, small potatoes.
They are adding up. Tens of thousands of dead and tortured people is
not insignificant to me. Added to the many millions listed above, it
seems to me to be rather more than 'small potatoes'. I'm appalled that
you do not regard mass murder as being serious if it happens to be
conducted in the name of religion. Your excuses and evasions are
sickening, frankly.
There are countless examples of religiously-motivated genocide,
Oh, no, they can be counted, and still the numbers are small by
comparison.
So what are these numbers that you keep referring to, but failing to
produce?
all of
which you ignore in your desperate attempt to pass your bloodthirsty
cult off as a peaceful religion.
And what is MY cult, you who call yourself "Mephisto?"
I assume you're a Christian, since you seem to keen to rewrite history
for their benefit.
What a joke.
You have a very strange sense of humour.
Mephisto
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
|
| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
13 Dec 2005 02:00:34 AM |
|
|
Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 19:34:39 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 09:38:49 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Root Worker wrote:
"L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just thr=
ee
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that t=
he
Bolsheviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges thro=
ughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
English.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
As I have already pointed out to you, Stalin was not an atheist. He
attended mass. Can you provide some quotes or other proof that any of
the people you mentioned were killing 'in the service of atheism' or
is this just another of the accusations that you refuse to back up
with any facts?
Now try answering my question without cutting and pasting irrelevant
trash. You make the beliefs of Marx and Engels clear - how many people
did they kill?
By one kind of accounting, about 20 times as many as Jesus.
You have still provided precisely nothing on the religious beliefs of
Stalin.
Islam? No. Jewish? Don't think so. Buddhist ... let me see ... no,
I think he was an Atheist. That was his overt allegiance.
You have also provided no proof that all of the people killing
others in Communist regimes were atheists (which they most certainly
were not),
No more than you have provided proof that all the Crusaders were
Christians.
or that a single death was conducted on behalf of atheism.
Marx states that Atheism is the heart of Communism, and most of those
people were killed on behalf of Communism. I don't think you got much
wiggle room.
They were communists (although most of them did not actually believe
in the communism outlined by Marx),
Aha. A statement without evidence. You must now supply numbers and
sources.
and their reasons for murdering
millions of people had nothing to do with atheism.
You offer speculation, only.
One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this contine=
nt . . .
Which had nothing to do with Christianity. But you will take the
broadest definition of Christianity and the narrowest definition of
Atheism, and the numbers still far and away show Atheism to be the
bloodiest religion.
What numbers? I've asked you several times to provide some evidence to
back up your claims. You're basing your opinion on some numbers,
presumably? How many people have been killed in the name of religion?
Let's we start with 30,000,000 Kulaks the Ukraine in the 1930s.
The Reign of Terror under Jean-Paul Marat in 1792-3. The Reign of
Terror under the Bolsheviks in Russia under the Bolsheviks. Pol Pot is
said to have killed between 3 and 7 million. The Maoists another 20 to
30 million, possibly as high as 50. The Shining Path, the Gulags in
Siberia, the purges under Lenin and under Stalin. The Kulaks, too,
died by the tens of thousands. The Christians in Russia and China, of
course. Look them up - they total 100 million or more.
How many have been killed by religious regimes?
See? You require the Communist killings to be narrowed to "in the name
of Atheism," but to Christianity you will attribute all killings "by
religious regimes." I can see your thumb on the scales.
And what are your
sources for the 100 million figure?
It is a rough figure, obviously not a body count. You have supplied no
numbers for your religious graveyards, so I am still ahead of you.
How many wars have been started by Christian leaders? Muslim Jihads?
Many were small battles by comparison, though they were called "wars."
How many have been killed by religious regimes?
"Religious regimes" again? That thumb is getting heavier.
How many were killed in the Christian crusades in the Middle East?
Oh, gracious. That number is so small, it hardly shows on the graph.
You don't regard millions of dead people as being significant as long
as it's Christians doing the killing?
How many millions and what is the source of your figure? There were no
"millions" living in the Holy Land at the time of the Crusades. The
arid land would not support them.
Thousands of massacres?
Tell you a secret? The people of the Palestine were called Saracens.
they had long curved swords, they fought from horseback, and they were
quite able in battle. They did not die in the millions, and when they
died, it was not a "massacre."
When the Christians were not invading Palestine, the Saracens were
invading Turkey and the Balkans. It was a back-and-forth battle, and
they gave as good as they got.
How
many did the Mongols kill in the name of god?
Whoop? No god involved for the Mongols. They were just happy
marauders.
Wrong. Genghis Khan claimed to be doing the work of god. He told the
people of Bukhara that god had sent him as a punishment. Guyug Khan
said that god had given the Mongols control of the world. They
butchered in the name of god.
Is "god" a Mongol word? Why did the Mongols speak Germanic English?
How many French men,
women and children were murdered during the fourth crusade? How many
died in the former Yugoslavia as a result of religious disagreements?
I guess if you ever went to church, everything you did after that makes
your motives religious, eh? But still, not many compared to the
Communist massacres.
How many?
ou are making the claims - you dig up the numbers to support them.
The fourth crusade was ordered by the Pope on religious grounds so
your apologist excuses are misplaced. Hundreds of thousands of men,
women and children massacred because they did not agree with the
religious beliefs of the Pope.
Hundreds of thousands. Your first number, and very approximate. But
still not millions, and not comparable to the feats of Atheism.
The slaughter in Rwanda?
Really, can you name the religions involved?
Predominantly Catholics with machetes.
You have named only one religion - unless "machetes" is a religion. so
far you have not shown that was a religious war.
One million dead in the massacres which were religiously motivated. Is
that insignificant to you as well?
How do you show it was religiously motivated?
And still, one million vs. a hundred million is not awesome.
It was really a ethnic/cultural war.
But the massacres conducted in Russia and China were not
culturally/ethnically motivated? Your argument is crumbling.
The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots?
Charlemagne's Saxon massacres? The Christian slave trade? The English
massacres in Ireland in the name of god?
Hardly. The was the Empire and the crown.
Which one? The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots? That was purely
religious in motive. Catholics have a long history of murdering anyone
who disagees with them. Same goes for Charlemagne - he murdered
thousands at a time just for belonging to another religion and not
converting.
Thousands is not millions.
The slave trade was conducted almost entirely by Christian
countries.
Countries did not run the ships - individuals and corporations did.
You are a little loose with your facts.
The English massacres in Ireland were also entirely
religiously motivated. There are many examples of English soldiers
killing Irish Catholics purely because they were Catholics. The same
happened in England - Protestant monarchs had Catholics murdered and
vice versa.
Your numbers are still missing.
The inquisitions?
Back to that tired old toddy. And still, small potatoes.
They are adding up. Tens of thousands of dead and tortured people is
not insignificant to me. Added to the many millions listed above,
Not millions. You have supplied one million in Africa, and no
religious base for the war.
it
seems to me to be rather more than 'small potatoes'. I'm appalled that
you do not regard mass murder as being serious if it happens to be
conducted in the name of religion. Your excuses and evasions are
sickening, frankly.
Nice twist. I refer to your statements of alleged fact, not to the
historical realities. The ghastly massacres of nunneries in Central
and South America by Communists - though numbering in only a few dozen
deaths - is quite sickening. But I do not mention them because they do
not add much to the numbers wracked up by Stalin and Mao.
There are countless examples of religiously-motivated genocide,
Oh, no, they can be counted, and still the numbers are small by
comparison.
So what are these numbers that you keep referring to, but failing to
produce?
I put them up top. You have put up very few numbers. You put up your
numbers, I'll put up mine.
all of
which you ignore in your desperate attempt to pass your bloodthirsty
cult off as a peaceful religion.
And what is MY cult, you who call yourself "Mephisto?"
I assume you're a Christian,
I am not a Christian.
since you seem to keen to rewrite history
for their benefit.
I am interested only in the truth, and that includes countering
bombastic propaganda like yours.
What a joke.
You have a very strange sense of humour.
You call me a cultist, then you sign yourself as "Mephisto" - that is a
joke.
TCross
.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
13 Dec 2005 07:40:58 PM |
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On 13 Dec 2005 00:00:34 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 19:34:39 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 09:38:49 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Root Worker wrote:
"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolsheviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
English.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
As I have already pointed out to you, Stalin was not an atheist. He
attended mass. Can you provide some quotes or other proof that any of
the people you mentioned were killing 'in the service of atheism' or
is this just another of the accusations that you refuse to back up
with any facts?
Now try answering my question without cutting and pasting irrelevant
trash. You make the beliefs of Marx and Engels clear - how many people
did they kill?
By one kind of accounting, about 20 times as many as Jesus.
How many?
You have still provided precisely nothing on the religious beliefs of
Stalin.
Islam? No. Jewish? Don't think so. Buddhist ... let me see ... no,
I think he was an Atheist. That was his overt allegiance.
He was a Catholic. He attended Mass. Atheists do not attend Mass
unless they're really, really bored or forced to by relatives. Which
do you think applied to Stalin? Do you think his Mum bullied him into
it?
You have also provided no proof that all of the people killing
others in Communist regimes were atheists (which they most certainly
were not),
No more than you have provided proof that all the Crusaders were
Christians.
I have never claimed that they were. You are the one trying to claim
that atheists are responsible for most of the murder in the world.
or that a single death was conducted on behalf of atheism.
Marx states that Atheism is the heart of Communism, and most of those
people were killed on behalf of Communism. I don't think you got much
wiggle room.
Marx is one man. That was his opinion. There were plenty of Christian
Communists. How many men did Marx kill? How many men did Marx order
killed?
They were communists (although most of them did not actually believe
in the communism outlined by Marx),
Aha. A statement without evidence. You must now supply numbers and
sources.
It's glaringly obvious. Communism involves sharing wealth equally.
That did not happen in supposedlty Communist countries. The leaders
were more wealthy than the peasants.
and their reasons for murdering
millions of people had nothing to do with atheism.
You offer speculation, only.
You made the claim. You have repeatedly failed to support it. You are
vehemently anti-atheist. Why should I take your word for anything?
Let's see your evidence.
One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this continent . . .
Which had nothing to do with Christianity. But you will take the
broadest definition of Christianity and the narrowest definition of
Atheism, and the numbers still far and away show Atheism to be the
bloodiest religion.
What numbers? I've asked you several times to provide some evidence to
back up your claims. You're basing your opinion on some numbers,
presumably? How many people have been killed in the name of religion?
Let's we start with 30,000,000 Kulaks the Ukraine in the 1930s.
The Reign of Terror under Jean-Paul Marat in 1792-3. The Reign of
Terror under the Bolsheviks in Russia under the Bolsheviks. Pol Pot is
said to have killed between 3 and 7 million. The Maoists another 20 to
30 million, possibly as high as 50. The Shining Path, the Gulags in
Siberia, the purges under Lenin and under Stalin. The Kulaks, too,
died by the tens of thousands. The Christians in Russia and China, of
course. Look them up - they total 100 million or more.
How many have been killed by religious regimes?
See? You require the Communist killings to be narrowed to "in the name
of Atheism," but to Christianity you will attribute all killings "by
religious regimes." I can see your thumb on the scales.
Not at all. You are the one who set the standard by insisting that if
a regime is in any way associated with atheism, then everyone killed
by that regime has been killed in the name of atheism. Are you
shifting your position on that, or are you saying that you can apply
that logic and I can not?
And what are your
sources for the 100 million figure?
It is a rough figure, obviously not a body count. You have supplied no
numbers for your religious graveyards, so I am still ahead of you.
Ahead how? You have not substantiated a single one of your
allegations.
If you can provide no evidence at all for your 100 million figure,
then it is worthless.
How many wars have been started by Christian leaders? Muslim Jihads?
Many were small battles by comparison, though they were called "wars."
How many have been killed by religious regimes?
"Religious regimes" again? That thumb is getting heavier.
What phrase would you prefer me to use? Again, you are the one who
began by insisting that all deaths in Communist regimes were in the
name of atheism.
How many were killed in the Christian crusades in the Middle East?
Oh, gracious. That number is so small, it hardly shows on the graph.
You don't regard millions of dead people as being significant as long
as it's Christians doing the killing?
How many millions and what is the source of your figure? There were no
"millions" living in the Holy Land at the time of the Crusades. The
arid land would not support them.
Aside from the fact that there were milliions on the Middle East at
the time, the crusades did not only take place in the 'holy land'.
There were massacres all across Europe. One of the crusades was
directed at Southern France, another at Constantinople. At least one
was in Eastern Europe.
Would you like a history book for Christmas?
Thousands of massacres?
Tell you a secret? The people of the Palestine were called Saracens.
they had long curved swords, they fought from horseback, and they were
quite able in battle. They did not die in the millions, and when they
died, it was not a "massacre."
Where did I say I was talking about the Saracens? When the Cathars
died in their hundreds of thousands it was a massacre. The people of
Constantinope and Jerusalem were massacred.
Either you know absolutely nothing about the history of the Catholic
church or you are lying to try and cover up their crimes. Either way,
I'm not impressed.
When the Christians were not invading Palestine, the Saracens were
invading Turkey and the Balkans. It was a back-and-forth battle, and
they gave as good as they got.
That is one tiny aspect of the crusades, and more numbers for
religiously motivated killings.
How
many did the Mongols kill in the name of god?
Whoop? No god involved for the Mongols. They were just happy
marauders.
Wrong. Genghis Khan claimed to be doing the work of god. He told the
people of Bukhara that god had sent him as a punishment. Guyug Khan
said that god had given the Mongols control of the world. They
butchered in the name of god.
Is "god" a Mongol word? Why did the Mongols speak Germanic English?
It's called a translation. That's the most idiotic thing you've said
so far, and there's plenty of competition.
How many French men,
women and children were murdered during the fourth crusade? How many
died in the former Yugoslavia as a result of religious disagreements?
I guess if you ever went to church, everything you did after that makes
your motives religious, eh? But still, not many compared to the
Communist massacres.
How many?
ou are making the claims - you dig up the numbers to support them.
Wrong... you started this whole thing by claiming that atheist regimes
had killed far more than religious regimes. You have repeatedly failed
to back that claim up.
The fourth crusade was ordered by the Pope on religious grounds so
your apologist excuses are misplaced. Hundreds of thousands of men,
women and children massacred because they did not agree with the
religious beliefs of the Pope.
Hundreds of thousands. Your first number, and very approximate. But
still not millions, and not comparable to the feats of Atheism.
It is one event amongst thousands.
The slaughter in Rwanda?
Really, can you name the religions involved?
Predominantly Catholics with machetes.
You have named only one religion - unless "machetes" is a religion. so
far you have not shown that was a religious war.
Google it.
One million dead in the massacres which were religiously motivated. Is
that insignificant to you as well?
How do you show it was religiously motivated?
And still, one million vs. a hundred million is not awesome.
Why are you comparing a single figure from a single event to your
(fabricated) atheist total rather than adding them up? If you add
together all of the events I have mentioned they are well into the
millions.
It was really a ethnic/cultural war.
But the massacres conducted in Russia and China were not
culturally/ethnically motivated? Your argument is crumbling.
The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots?
Charlemagne's Saxon massacres? The Christian slave trade? The English
massacres in Ireland in the name of god?
Hardly. The was the Empire and the crown.
Which one? The Catholic slaughter of the Huguenots? That was purely
religious in motive. Catholics have a long history of murdering anyone
who disagees with them. Same goes for Charlemagne - he murdered
thousands at a time just for belonging to another religion and not
converting.
Thousands is not millions.
The total is millions.
The slave trade was conducted almost entirely by Christian
countries.
Countries did not run the ships - individuals and corporations did.
You are a little loose with your facts.
Countries did indeed run the ships. They were funded by Governments
and Monarchs.
The English massacres in Ireland were also entirely
religiously motivated. There are many examples of English soldiers
killing Irish Catholics purely because they were Catholics. The same
happened in England - Protestant monarchs had Catholics murdered and
vice versa.
Your numbers are still missing.
Why are you suddenly squealing for numbers when you have been unable
to provide any?
The inquisitions?
Back to that tired old toddy. And still, small potatoes.
They are adding up. Tens of thousands of dead and tortured people is
not insignificant to me. Added to the many millions listed above,
Not millions. You have supplied one million in Africa, and no
religious base for the war.
Your ignorance and denial are noted, but as I have said time and again
if you add up the number of people massacred in the name of religion,
it exceeds those killed in the name of atheism.
it
seems to me to be rather more than 'small potatoes'. I'm appalled that
you do not regard mass murder as being serious if it happens to be
conducted in the name of religion. Your excuses and evasions are
sickening, frankly.
Nice twist. I refer to your statements of alleged fact, not to the
historical realities. The ghastly massacres of nunneries in Central
and South America by Communists - though numbering in only a few dozen
deaths - is quite sickening. But I do not mention them because they do
not add much to the numbers wracked up by Stalin and Mao.
I agree that those massacres were dreadful. They were not conducted in
the name of atheism as you claim, which is where your ridiculous
argument really collapses. You minimise the importance of all
religiously motivated violence. That is what I find disgusting.
There are countless examples of religiously-motivated genocide,
Oh, no, they can be counted, and still the numbers are small by
comparison.
So what are these numbers that you keep referring to, but failing to
produce?
I put them up top. You have put up very few numbers. You put up your
numbers, I'll put up mine.
You have quoted NO numbers for religiously motivated killings. Not a
single one. Just evasion after evasion.
all of
which you ignore in your desperate attempt to pass your bloodthirsty
cult off as a peaceful religion.
And what is MY cult, you who call yourself "Mephisto?"
I assume you're a Christian,
I am not a Christian.
You should be. You're a revisionist, anti-atheist - the perfect
fundamentalist.
since you seem to keen to rewrite history
for their benefit.
I am interested only in the truth, and that includes countering
bombastic propaganda like yours.
LOL! Countering with what? All you have done is dreamt up a number of
100 million, refused to back it up, and failed to provide a number for
religiously-motivated deaths with which to compare it.
What a joke.
You have a very strange sense of humour.
You call me a cultist, then you sign yourself as "Mephisto" - that is a
joke.
Why? Mephisto has nothing to do with religion. It's a fictional
character. It does not appear in the Bible.
Mephisto
.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
|
| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 11:35:05 PM |
|
|
On 12 Dec 2005 19:34:39 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 09:38:49 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Root Worker wrote:
"Lörd Phÿltêr" <phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I4fnf.18402$ea6.17579@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134374056.979701.152710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Almost a 100,000,000 people were slain by the orders of just three
Atheists: Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin. Add to that the
Bolshiviks in the Rain of Terror and other Communist purges throughout
the world and you have more victims of Atheism than all of other
religions added together.
You ARE the complete moron, aren't you.
None of that was done in the name of "atheism".
Of course not. All the people involved spoke languages other than
Engish.
But it was all done by Atheists in the service of Atheism.
As I have already pointed out to you, Stalin was not an atheist. He
attended mass. Can you provide some quotes or other proof that any of
the people you mentioned were killing 'in the service of atheism' or
is this just another of the accusations that you refuse to back up
with any facts?
Now try answering my question without cutting and pasting irrelevant
trash. You make the beliefs of Marx and Engels clear - how many people
did they kill?
You have still provided precisely nothing on the religious beliefs of
Stalin. You have also provided no proof that all of the people killing
others in Communist regimes were atheists (which they most certainly
were not), or that a single death was conducted on behalf of atheism.
They were communists (although most of them did not actually believe
in the communism outlined by Marx), and their reasons for murdering
millions of people had nothing to do with atheism.
One might also look at all the death and misery not only caused BY
Christians, but done in the name of Christianity: The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of this continent . . .
Which had nothing to do with Christianity. But you will take the
broadest definition of Christianity and the narrowest definition of
Atheism, and the numbers still far and away show Atheism to be the
bloodiest religion.
What numbers? I've asked you several times to provide some evidence to
back up your claims. You're basing your opinion on some numbers,
presumably? How many people have been killed in the name of religion?
Let's we start with 30,000,000 Kulacks the the Ukraine in the 1930s.
The Reign of Terror under Jean-Paul Marat in 1792-3. The Reign of
Terror under the Bolsheviks in Russia under the Bolsheviks. Pol Pot is
said to have killed between 3 and 7 million. The Maoists another 20 to
30 million, possibly as high as 50. The Shining Path, the Gulags in
Siberia, the purges under Lenin and under Stalin. The Kulaks, too,
died by the tens of thousands. The Christians in Russia and China, of
course. Look them up - they total 100 million or more.
How many have been killed by religious regimes? And what are your
sources for the 100 million figure?
How many wars have been started by Christian leaders? Muslim Jihads?
Many were small battles by comparison, thought they were called "wars."
How many have been killed by religious regimes?
How many were killed in the Christian crusades in the Middle East?
Oh, gracious. That number is so small, it hardly shows on the graph.
You don | | | | | | | | | |
