Religions > Atheism > A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
09 Dec 2005 12:59:27 PM |
| Object: |
A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
Rodney Stark's latest book, The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led
to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success (Random House, 2005), is
scheduled for publication next Tuesday. It's a useful corrective for
folks in Austin, Boston, and other blue spots who think of Christianity
and rationalism as opposite historical forces and philosophical
concepts. The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
WORLD: How is Christianity unique in emphasizing the idea of progress?
STARK: The other great faiths either taught that the world is locked in
endless cycles or that it is inevitably declining from a previous
Golden Age. Only Christians believed that God's gift of reason made
progress inevitable-theological as well as technical progress. Thus,
Augustine (ca. 354-430) flatly asserted that through the application of
reason we will gain an increasingly more accurate understanding of God,
remarking that although there were "certain matters pertaining to the
doctrine of salvation that we cannot yet grasp . . . one day we shall
be able to do so."
Nor was the Christian belief in progress limited to theology. Augustine
went on at length about the "wonderful-one might say
stupefying-advances human industry has made" and attributed all this
to the "unspeakable boon" that God has conferred upon His creation, a
"rational nature." These views were repeated again and again through
the centuries. Especially typical were these words preached by Fra
Giordano in Florence in 1306: "Not all the arts have been found; we
shall never see an end to finding them."
WORLD: But a lot of us learned that Europe fell into the "Dark Ages."
How did that historical understanding originate, and what's wrong with
it?
STARK: The Dark Ages have finally been recognized as a hoax perpetrated
by anti-religious and bitterly anti-Catholic, 18th-century
intellectuals who were determined to assert their cultural superiority
and who boosted their claim by denigrating the Christian past-as
Gibbon put it in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, after Rome
came the "triumph of barbarism and religion." In the past few years
even encyclopedias and dictionaries have begun to acknowledge that it
was all a lie, that the Dark Ages never were. This always should have
been obvious since by the end of the so-called Dark Ages, European
science and technology had far exceeded that of Rome and Greece, and
all the rest of the world, for that matter.
WORLD: Could you be specific? What were some of the "Dark Ages"
innovations that show the folly of considering Greek and Roman culture
the apex of civilization until recent times?
STARK: How about the perfection and widespread use of waterwheels,
windmills, and pumps, the invention of the compass, stirrups, the
crossbow, canons, effective horse harnesses, eyeglasses, clocks,
chimneys, violins, double-entry bookkeeping, and insurance? This list
doesn't begin to do justice to this era that historians of science now
refer to as an age of remarkable innovation and discovery.
Perhaps the most revealing instance involves the "story" that in order
to gain backing for his great voyage west, Columbus had to struggle
against ignorant and superstitious churchmen who were certain that the
earth was flat. Truth was that all educated Europeans, including
bishops and cardinals, knew the earth was round. What produced church
opposition to the Columbus voyage was that Columbus believed the
circumference of the earth was only about one-fifth of its actual
distance. Thus, the church scholars who opposed him did so because they
knew that he and his sailors were bound to perish at sea. And they
would have done so had the Western Hemisphere not been there to
replenish their food and water.
WORLD: So Christians were pro-science, but you suggest that the Muslim
conception of God held back the rise of science in the Islamic world?
STARK: Allah was not conceived of as creator of a universe governed by
"natural" rules, in contrast with the prevailing Christian conception
of Jehovah as the Great Clockmaker. Instead, their image of Allah
encouraged Muslims to focus their attention on interpreting divine laws
governing human behavior, not to search for the divine "secrets" that
govern the universe.
WORLD: You say the Christian doctrine that sin is a personal
responsibility made a difference in the extension of liberty and
economic opportunity in the early modern era.
STARK: The admonition "Go and sin no more" is absurd if we are mere
captives of our fate. Christianity teaches that we have free will and
therefore must be relatively free of compulsions. This theological
insight led directly to doctrines that opposed repressive states,
slavery, and other forms of exploitation and in favor of private
property and freedom of conscience. These freedoms often were not
achieved, but their clear basis in Christian doctrines did result in
some relatively free, early European societies, initially in the
medieval Italian city-states, and in the eventual spread of democracy.
WORLD: You argue that the problems of the Spanish empire display, among
others things, the disadvantages of having a state church. How?
STARK: In two primary ways. First of all, a "kept" church is lazy. When
clergy do not rely on the laity for their support, they tend to neglect
their pastoral duties. In the case of the Spanish church, because
everyone was by law a Roman Catholic, nothing needed to be done to
convert them or even to attract them to Mass. In fact, the state
collected the church tithes so the clergy had no need to bestir
themselves even for money. And that's why until very recently most
people in Latin America were only nominal Christians, if that.
The second great shortcoming of state churches is that they are
captives of their political rulers. By treaty the King of Spain chose
all bishops and cardinals, not only in Spain, but in the empire.
Moreover, no church pronouncements, including papal bulls, could be
published in any Spanish area without prior consent of the king. As a
result a whole series of 15th- and 16th-century papal condemnations of
slavery were unknown in Spain and Latin America and were ignored by
historians until the past decade or so.
State interference in religious affairs was not unique to Spain.
Whether ruled by despots or merely by politicians, where there is a
state church the state can never keep itself from interfering in
religious affairs. In Scandinavia, where Lutheran state churches
prevail, parliaments revise doctrines and even concern themselves with
details such as the contents of hymn books. Indeed, in Sweden pastors
of the state church (and of other churches as well) are now prohibited
from reading in public any portion of the Bible that is critical of
homosexuality.
WORLD: You've emphasized in your writing the advantages of church
competition and religious entrepreneurship. Are those advantages also
contributing to the recent growth of Christianity in Latin America,
Africa, and China?
STARK: In 1881-82 William F. Bainbridge, a prominent American Baptist,
visited all American Protestant overseas missions (in those days they
were still all coastal and easily reached). He found that in some
places the denominations had cut up an area and granted each group an
exclusive mission field, but in other places all the denominations
competed for converts. He observed that the missionaries were far more
successful where they competed. This remains the case. Consider that
for centuries Roman Catholics had an exclusive right to missionize
Latin America, at the end of which most of the continent was
unchurched. Then Protestant missionaries were allowed to enter. The
result has been not only the conversion of millions to active
Protestantism, but also to so greatly revive Roman Catholicism that it
now is growing, too. Meanwhile, the Christianization of Africa is being
accomplished by hundreds of competing denominations, most of African
origins.
WORLD: What do you think the shape of Christianity will be in 2050?
STARK: By then Christianity may well be the dominant religion in China.
Latin Americans probably will be as churched as North Americans. Africa
will be more than half Christian. As for Europe, it will be well along
in a major revival of religion, one way or the other: Christian or
Islamic.
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 05:25:59 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134154767.073374.132800@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
Rodney Stark's latest book, The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led
to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success (Random House, 2005), is
scheduled for publication next Tuesday. It's a useful corrective for
folks in Austin, Boston, and other blue spots who think of Christianity
and rationalism as opposite historical forces and philosophical
concepts. The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
WORLD: How is Christianity unique in emphasizing the idea of progress?
ROFLMAO !!!!!!!
Christianity emphasizing progress !!!!
What fucking planet are you living on, ***** ????
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable notion
that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often led to
accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what that
reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be skeptical of
someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Martin" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 06:06:07 PM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@nodamnspamdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:XtCdnXpERMgTjwfeRVnyvQ@pipex.net...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134154767.073374.132800@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
Rodney Stark's latest book, The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led
to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success (Random House, 2005), is
scheduled for publication next Tuesday. It's a useful corrective for
folks in Austin, Boston, and other blue spots who think of Christianity
and rationalism as opposite historical forces and philosophical
concepts. The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
WORLD: How is Christianity unique in emphasizing the idea of progress?
ROFLMAO !!!!!!!
Christianity emphasizing progress !!!!
What fucking planet are you living on, ***** ????
The same one as us unfortunately.
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
I don't wish to be rude, but that is a most disturbing and unsavoury
combination...
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable notion
that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often led to
accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what that
reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be skeptical of
someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Advanced Nykosian logic always has been a bit beyond me I'm afraid. I stick to
the basic principles: "I am what I am, and I know what I see".
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 06:19:04 PM |
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"Martin" <martin.reboul@spamfuktiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:439a1bed_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
"Jez" <iced_spear@nodamnspamdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:XtCdnXpERMgTjwfeRVnyvQ@pipex.net...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134154767.073374.132800@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
Rodney Stark's latest book, The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led
to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success (Random House, 2005), is
scheduled for publication next Tuesday. It's a useful corrective for
folks in Austin, Boston, and other blue spots who think of Christianity
and rationalism as opposite historical forces and philosophical
concepts. The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
WORLD: How is Christianity unique in emphasizing the idea of progress?
ROFLMAO !!!!!!!
Christianity emphasizing progress !!!!
What fucking planet are you living on, ***** ????
The same one as us unfortunately.
Sigh !! Sadly.
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
I don't wish to be rude, but that is a most disturbing and unsavoury
combination...
Hehe....get yer own disturbing degree....
http://www.cynicalbastards.com/ubs/
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion
that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often led to
accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what that
reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be skeptical
of
someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
Advanced Nykosian logic always has been a bit beyond me I'm afraid. I
stick to
the basic principles: "I am what I am, and I know what I see".
I am what I am, but as for what I see...who can tell what it is ! :)
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable notion
that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often led to
accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what that
reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be skeptical of
someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 03:38:06 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
....
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
....
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Regards,
Josef
Deja Moo: the feeling that you've heard this bull before.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 04:22:47 PM |
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On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
...
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
...
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
Regards,
Josef
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 04:26:16 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
...
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
...
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
We are already aware of the changes the Atheism brought to the world in
the last century. Would you care to argue a comparison?
TCross
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 04:48:16 PM |
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Terry Cross wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
...
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
...
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
We are already aware of the changes the Atheism brought to the world in
the last century.
You mean doubling the human life span, or were you referring to
something else?
-jc
Would you care to argue a comparison?
TCross
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 05:00:49 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2005 14:48:16 -0800, "jcon" <cirejcon@yahoo.com> wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
...
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
...
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
We are already aware of the changes the Atheism brought to the world in
the last century.
You mean doubling the human life span, or were you referring to
something else?
Terry Cross is also lying. Atheism doesn't do anything. It's not a
motivation or justification for anything, any more than not collecting
stamps is.
-jc
Would you care to argue a comparison?
TCross
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 05:29:17 PM |
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jcon wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
...
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
...
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
We are already aware of the changes the Atheism brought to the world in
the last century.
You mean doubling the human life span, or were you referring to
something else?
I am referring to that sect of Atheism that calls itself Marxist
Communism, Maoism, etc. that has brought so much misery, squalor, and
conflict to the world.
TCross
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 06:52:19 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2005 15:29:17 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
jcon wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
...
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
...
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
We are already aware of the changes the Atheism brought to the world in
the last century.
You mean doubling the human life span, or were you referring to
something else?
I am referring to that sect of Atheism that calls itself Marxist
Communism, Maoism, etc. that has brought so much misery, squalor, and
conflict to the world.
TCross
There is no such thing as an atheist sect.
This has been pointed out to you numerous times.
To repeat it, full well knowing it not to true, is an outright LIE.
Coming from a Christian, this is not surprise.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 08:09:30 PM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 9 Dec 2005 15:29:17 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
jcon wrote:
Terry Cross wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
A reasonable religion
INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed politics,
economics, and much besides
by Marvin Olasky
...
The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
Christian sense of progress led to political, technological, and
economic advances.
...
Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
We are already aware of the changes the Atheism brought to the world in
the last century.
You mean doubling the human life span, or were you referring to
something else?
I am referring to that sect of Atheism that calls itself Marxist
Communism, Maoism, etc. that has brought so much misery, squalor, and
conflict to the world.
TCross
There is no such thing as an atheist sect.
Of course there is. Marx tells you right up front that the foundation
of his doctrine is Atheism, making the Marxist doctrines a sect.
This has been pointed out to you numerous times.
It has been asserted before, but no one has brought proof. The basic
definitions argue against you.
To repeat it, full well knowing it not to true, is an outright LIE.
You may call your brothers anything you like, but watch out when you
turn your back - they might not agree with you.
Coming from a Christian, this is not surprise.
Atheism is the belief that physical Existence is self-sufficient to
explain all phenomena in the Universe. That is an asserted doctrine.
From that doctrine may be derived morals (such as they are),
governments (such as they were), and courses of action.
Do not expect your assertions to change anyone's mind. You are an
anonymous voice on the Usenet offering nothing to support your
statements. And as we have observed, the opinions of Atheists are as
independent as the flight of starlings in a flock or minnows in a
school - though a leader is not in evidence, they seem always to turn,
dive, and swoop together, their opinions not a hand's breadth apart.
TCross
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 08:15:11 PM |
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"Terry Cross" wrote
: Michael Gray wrote:
: > "Terry Cross" wrote:
: > >jcon wrote:
: > >> Terry Cross wrote:
: > >> > Christopher A. Lee wrote:
: > >> > > Josef Balluch wrote:
: > >> > > >
: > >> > > >In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel
on the
: > >> > > >fire with the following:
: > >> > > >
: > >> > > >> http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=11322
: > >> > > >
: > >> > > >> A reasonable religion
: > >> > > >
: > >> > > >> INTERVIEW: Author Rodney Stark on how Christianity changed
politics,
: > >> > > >> economics, and much besides
: > >> > > >>
: > >> > > >> by Marvin Olasky
: > >> > > >...
: > >> > > >> The veteran Baylor professor discussed with WORLD how the
: > >> > > >> Christian sense of progress led to political, technological,
and
: > >> > > >> economic advances.
: > >> > > >...
: > >> > > >Association is not sufficient to establish causation.
: > >> > >
: > >> > > Then the veteran Baylor professor was lying through his teeth.
: > >> > >
: > >> > > What colour is the sky on his planet where there weren't the dark
: > >> > > ages, persecution of Bruo, Servetus, Gallileo etc?
: > >> >
: > >> > We are already aware of the changes the Atheism brought to the
world in
: > >> > the last century.
: > >>
: > >> You mean doubling the human life span, or were you referring to
: > >> something else?
: > >
: > >I am referring to that sect of Atheism that calls itself Marxist
: > >Communism, Maoism, etc. that has brought so much misery, squalor, and
: > >conflict to the world.
: > >
: > >TCross
: >
: > There is no such thing as an atheist sect.
:
: Of course there is. Marx tells you right up front that the foundation
: of his doctrine is Atheism, making the Marxist doctrines a sect.
:
: > This has been pointed out to you numerous times.
:
: It has been asserted before, but no one has brought proof. The basic
: definitions argue against you.
:
: > To repeat it, full well knowing it not to true, is an outright LIE.
:
: You may call your brothers anything you like, but watch out when you
: turn your back - they might not agree with you.
:
: > Coming from a Christian, this is not surprise.
:
: Atheism is the belief that physical Existence is self-sufficient to
: explain all phenomena in the Universe. That is an asserted doctrine.
: >From that doctrine may be derived morals (such as they are),
: governments (such as they were), and courses of action.
:
: Do not expect your assertions to change anyone's mind. You are an
: anonymous voice on the Usenet offering nothing to support your
: statements. And as we have observed, the opinions of Atheists are as
: independent as the flight of starlings in a flock or minnows in a
: school - though a leader is not in evidence, they seem always to turn,
: dive, and swoop together, their opinions not a hand's breadth apart.
You are the one making the positive claims. The burden of proof is all
yours!
--
Bear
What I am is what I am. Are you what you are or what? -Edie Brickell
It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing,
than to believe what is wrong. -Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 08:31:57 PM |
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Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
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| User: "Lörd Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
11 Dec 2005 03:32:14 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134181916.911410.190550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
Your "guilt by association" is laughable. Not to mention that anyone not
declaring themselves a Marxist Communist was fast tracked to the gulags, a
point you "conveniently" omitted.
However, you defend christianity, so, your mendacity is expected.
--
Lörd Phÿltêr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 08:52:18 PM |
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"Terry Cross" wrote in message
news:1134181916.911410.190550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: Do you have trouble reading history?
Not at all.
: Karl Marx wrote that the
: foundation of Marxist-Communism is atheism.
Which doesn't make *all* atheists Marxist-Communists; now does it? Think!
: Hundreds of thousands of
: people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
: themselves thereby as Atheists.
No, not "defining themselves *thereby* as atheists"! Being atheists doesn't
have anything to do with them being Marxist-Communists.
: Then they proceeded to murder
: 100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
Their Marxist-Communist doctrines. Christianity hasn't been much better.
--
Bear
What I am is what I am. Are you what you are or what? -Edie Brickell
It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing,
than to believe what is wrong. -Thomas Jefferson
.
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| User: "Nightshade" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
10 Dec 2005 04:51:21 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history?
No, but you seem to; Assuming that you have ever read any history,
that didn't come out of a xtian propaganda mill.
Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism.
Are you saying that Russia's oppressed millions, predominantly RC,
were able to *choose* to, and then successfully, set aside the beliefs
of a life time, and become atheist, simply by declaring them selves
socialist/communist;
And that, all because Karl Marx, thought it was a good idea?
It does not say much for xtians, if their faith is so thin, and so
fickle.
But it is so, perhaps you could explain why the Russian Orthodox
Church, was created. What was the point, when they were all atheists?
....And so far, the world has not seen a Marxist society, a society
that followed the tenets laid out in Das Kapital.
Besides, that was only Marx' opinion. There is no evidence that
anyone has ever taken marxism seriously.
Communism is based on xtianity, as described in the bible, and so
far, the world has not seen a xtian society, either.
However, the communists societies that we have seen, have come very
close to xtianity, but without the god bit.
First, they isolate them selves, and then kill everybody that
disagrees with them.
Next they take all property into a communal pool, and kill anybody
that tries to hold a bit back for themselves.
Then they send out armies, to get new lands, and make new converts.
At sword point.
Atrocity upon atrocity, and all in the name of a loving god.
Amazing.
Now if you would care to support your assertion, and show us, where in
Das Kapital, Marx states "the foundation of Marxist-Communism is
atheism, I am sure that we would all be most interested to read it.
Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists.
What a convenient bit of semantic tripe.
But never mind, we can all play that card.
Sixteen hundred years ago, an empire, embraced belief in a Christos,
thus declaring them selves xtian, and then proceeded to, commit,
torture, murder and genocide: Spreading their "faith" with blood and
fire, in the name of their Christos.
And they are still doing it today
No one knows the full extent of their evil, or the total number of
deaths, in the name of their god, and it is probable that no one ever
will.
Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That number grows, every time a usenet xtian, tells the tale.
That was a small burdon.
Define "burdon"
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
09 Dec 2005 10:16:21 PM |
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On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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| User: "Lörd Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
11 Dec 2005 03:34:24 AM |
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MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> astounded us with:
news:pan.2005.12.10.04.16.19.438745@nowhere.com:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
--
Lörd Phÿltêr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
11 Dec 2005 03:52:24 PM |
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L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr wrote:
MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> astounded us with:
news:pan.2005.12.10.04.16.19.438745@nowhere.com:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin was handing
out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you are nice people -
until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then you start drooling.
TCross
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| User: "Lörd Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 07:51:36 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134337944.746647.320940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Lörd Phÿltêr wrote:
MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> astounded us with:
news:pan.2005.12.10.04.16.19.438745@nowhere.com:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin was handing
out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you are nice people -
until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then you start drooling.
TCross
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and you foam at the
fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face next, you
sanctimonious retard!
--
Lörd Phÿltêr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 05:58:53 PM |
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L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134337944.746647.320940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr wrote:
MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> astounded us with:
news:pan.2005.12.10.04.16.19.438745@nowhere.com:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands =
of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin was handing
out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you are nice people -
until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then you start drooling.
TCross
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and you foam at =
the
fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face next, you
sanctimonious retard!
Wow! Listen to 'em wail! Who needs garlic when the truth works so
well?
TCross
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| User: "Phÿltrêss" |
|
| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
13 Dec 2005 09:15:15 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> blew me away with
news:1134431933.071824.289670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Lörd Phÿltêr wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134337944.746647.320940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Lörd Phÿltêr wrote:
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin was
handing out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you are
nice people - until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then
you
start drooling.
TCross
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and you
foam
at
the
fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face
next,
you sanctimonious retard!
Wow! Listen to 'em wail! Who needs garlic when the truth works
so
well?
TCross
ROTFFLMAO!! TRUTH??? What the ***** would a lying,nauseating little
pimp for jeezus like you know about "truth"? A mental cripple
enslaved by a pack of mendacious leeches, you imagine your 2
truncated brain cells to be in possession of the "truth"! Spewing up
your hallucinations is fun for you, tedious for the rest of us,
fuckchop. Go back to jerking off your pet spaniel,it might shut you
up for awhile.
--
Phÿltrêss, Princess of Atheism
Phabulous Phast Phood Carry-Out & Weapons Shop
"Face O' Mary" Grilled Cheese our Specialty,
Don't MAKE me call you fuckchop, Fuckchop!
www.jesusneverexisted.com
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
13 Dec 2005 07:07:06 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:15:15 GMT, "Phÿltrêss" <not@tellin.com> wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> blew me away with
news:1134431933.071824.289670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L?Ph?r wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134337944.746647.320940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L?Ph?r wrote:
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin was
handing out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you are
nice people - until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then
you
start drooling.
TCross
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and you
foam
at
the
fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face
next,
you sanctimonious retard!
Wow! Listen to 'em wail! Who needs garlic when the truth works
so
well?
TCross
ROTFFLMAO!! TRUTH??? What the ***** would a lying,nauseating little
pimp for jeezus like you know about "truth"? A mental cripple
enslaved by a pack of mendacious leeches, you imagine your 2
truncated brain cells to be in possession of the "truth"! Spewing up
your hallucinations is fun for you, tedious for the rest of us,
fuckchop. Go back to jerking off your pet spaniel,it might shut you
up for awhile.
What he said.
.
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| User: "Phÿltrêss" |
|
| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
17 Dec 2005 08:14:31 PM |
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[posted and mailed]
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> blew me away with
news:d1sup1daaul2tdstcldl8at0es646e3d7c@4ax.com:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:15:15 GMT, "Phÿltrêss" <not@tellin.com>
wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> blew me away with
news:1134431933.071824.289670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L?Ph?r wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134337944.746647.320940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L?Ph?r wrote:
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin
was
handing out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you
are
nice people - until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then
you
start drooling.
TCross
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and
you
foam
at
the
fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face
next,
you sanctimonious retard!
Wow! Listen to 'em wail! Who needs garlic when the truth works
so
well?
TCross
ROTFFLMAO!! TRUTH??? What the ***** would a lying,nauseating little
pimp for jeezus like you know about "truth"? A mental cripple
enslaved by a pack of mendacious leeches, you imagine your 2
truncated brain cells to be in possession of the "truth"! Spewing
up
your hallucinations is fun for you, tedious for the rest of us,
fuckchop. Go back to jerking off your pet spaniel,it might shut
you
up for awhile.
What he said.
Get somebody to read it to you, you fucking little moron.
--
Phÿltrêss, Princess of Atheism
Phabulous Phast Phood Carry-Out & Weapons Shop
"Face O' Mary" Grilled Cheese our Specialty,
Don't MAKE me call you fuckchop, Fuckchop!
www.jesusneverexisted.com
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
18 Dec 2005 07:19:15 PM |
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Ph=FFltr=EAss wrote:
[posted and mailed]
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> blew me away with
news:d1sup1daaul2tdstcldl8at0es646e3d7c@4ax.com:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:15:15 GMT, "Ph=FFltr=EAss" <not@tellin.com>
wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> blew me away with
news:1134431933.071824.289670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L?Ph?r wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134337944.746647.320940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L?Ph?r wrote:
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin
was handing out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you
are nice people - until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then
you start drooling.
TCross
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and
you foam at the fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face
next, you sanctimonious retard!
Wow! Listen to 'em wail! Who needs garlic when the truth works
so well?
TCross
ROTFFLMAO!! TRUTH??? What the ***** would a lying,nauseating little
pimp for jeezus like you know about "truth"? A mental cripple
enslaved by a pack of mendacious leeches, you imagine your 2
truncated brain cells to be in possession of the "truth"! Spewing
up your hallucinations is fun for you, tedious for the rest of us,
fuckchop. Go back to jerking off your pet spaniel,it might shut
you up for awhile.
What he said.
Get somebody to read it to you, you fucking little moron.
To read all that bile is but a momentary experience. Can you imagine
the poor thing that has that world 24x7, muttering to itself, cursing
the rest of the world and everything that lives in it?
In real life, it must be like the girl Regan of book, "The Exorcist."
TCross
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
13 Dec 2005 02:58:56 PM |
|
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Ph=FFltr=EAss wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> blew me away with
news:1134431933.071824.289670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> astounded us with:
news:1134337944.746647.320940@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
L=F6rd Ph=FFlt=EAr wrote:
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin was
handing out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you are
nice people - until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then
you start drooling.
TCross
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and you
foam at the fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face
next, you sanctimonious retard!
Wow! Listen to 'em wail! Who needs garlic when the truth works
so well?
TCross
ROTFFLMAO!! TRUTH??? What the ***** would a lying,nauseating little
pimp for jeezus like you know about "truth"? A mental cripple
enslaved by a pack of mendacious leeches, you imagine your 2
truncated brain cells to be in possession of the "truth"! Spewing up
your hallucinations is fun for you, tedious for the rest of us,
fuckchop. Go back to jerking off your pet spaniel,it might shut you
up for awhile.
You are a testament to the wisdom of your own truth. Please, go forth
and preach your Gospel to all peoples just as you do here. It would be
a tragedy for you to hide your lanthorn in the dank recesses of a bat
cave.
TCross
.
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| User: "Nightshade" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 05:44:43 PM |
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On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:51:36 GMT, "Lörd Phÿltêr"
<phylter@hsotmail.com> wrote:
Oh shut the ***** up twat, a little sarcasm and hyperbole and you foam at the
fucking mouth, twerp!
You'll be brandishing a fucking crucifix and garlic in my face next, you
sanctimonious retard!
OH *****!
That is what I forgot, garlic.
Cant make lasagna, without garlic.
Ah well, have to wait till morning now, I aint going out at this time,
for a string of garlic.
Thanks for reminding me, Lord. (:-)
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
12 Dec 2005 10:11:52 AM |
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On 11 Dec 2005 13:52:24 -0800, "Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Lörd Phÿltêr wrote:
MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> astounded us with:
news:pan.2005.12.10.04.16.19.438745@nowhere.com:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off!!
Another wannabe mass-murderer. Where were you when Stalin was handing
out the rifles? Funny how you guys all pretend you are nice people -
until you smell the suggestion of blood. Then you start drooling.
The above is either an example of dishonesty or stupidity.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
10 Dec 2005 05:07:52 AM |
|
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MarkA wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:31:57 -0800, Terry Cross wrote:
Do you have trouble reading history? Karl Marx wrote that the
foundation of Marxist-Communism is Atheism. Hundreds of thousands of
people rose up announcing they were Marxist-Communists, defining
themselves thereby as Atheists. Then they proceeded to murder
100,000,000 people in the name of their doctrines.
That was a small burdon.
TCross
Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
Is that your answer to other religions? Murder?
Then when you mock the religions that would "kill all heretics," you
have absolutely no moral altitude. You are at heart, the same.
Again you prove that Atheism is just one more religion.
TCross
.
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: A Reasonable Religion: How Christianity Changed The World For The Better |
10 Dec 2005 05:10:58 AM |
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"Terry Cross" wrote
: MarkA wrote:
: > Too bad they didn't kill off all the theists, eh?
:
: Is that your answer to other religions?
Theists are not necessarily religious.
--
Bear
What I am is what I am. Are you what you are or what? -Edie Brickell
It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing,
than to believe what is wrong. -Thomas Jefferson
.
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