Further facts:

Thomas Jefferson, the man who actually WROTE the Declaration of
Independence, was also the author of the Virginia Act for Establishing
Religious Freedom. The meat of the Act is: "no man shall be compelled to
frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever,
nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or
goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or
belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to
maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall
in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." Please
note that "support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever"
has, over the last 300 years this law has been in place, prohibited any
and all government support of religion.

Thomas Jefferson also coined the phrase, "wall of separation between
church and state" in a letter to the Baptist Association of Danbury,
Connecticut in 1802. He was writing in response to fears by the
Association that Baptists -- then a small group considered heretics by
many Christians -- would face the same kind of persecution in the US that
they had faced in England.

You give quotes from James Madison, the principle author of the
Constitution. Here are a few you missed:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for
every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect" - letter to William
Bradford.

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the
same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of
his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to
conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" - Address to
the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785.

"In a free government, the security for civil rights must be the same as
that for religious rights. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity
of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of sects." - The
Federalist Papers, 51, published anonymously but attributed to Madison.

Regarding the power of a majority, Madison wrote in a letter to Thomas
Jefferson on October 17, 1788: "Wherever the real power in a Government
lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real
power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private
rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government
contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the
Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the
constituents."

In the Treaty of Tripoli, authorized by George Washington, ratified by a
Senate where a majority had been signers of the Constitution and signed by
John Adams, states explicitly in Article 11: "the government of the United
States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

Speaking of John Adams, our second president wrote to his son, John Quincy
Adams (the sixth president), "Let the human mind loose. It must be loose.
It will be loose. Superstition and Dogmatism cannot confine it."

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson in 1825, Adams wrote, "There exists, I
believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it
blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the
Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of
Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In
England itself it is punished by boring through the tongue with a red-hot
poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I
believe, upon the whole, is as temperate and moderate in religious zeal as
most of the States, a law was made in the latter end of the last century,
repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine
and imprisonment upon all those blasphemers upon any book of the Old
Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely
encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for
investigating into the divine authority of those books? Who would run the
risk of translating Dupuis? But I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though
I have it much at heart. I think such laws a great embarrassment, great
obstructions to the improvement of the human mind. Books that cannot bear
examination, certainly ought not to be established as divine inspiration
by penal laws. It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in
execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to
venture to depart from them. But as long as they continue in force as
laws, the human mind must make an awkward and clumsy progress in its
investigations. I wish they were repealed. The substance and essence of
Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and unchangeable, and will
bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with extraneous
ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they ought to be
separated."

There are many other such quotes: Benjamin Franklin. Thomas Paine. Ethan
Allen. John Hancock. Regardless of their *personal* beliefs, most of the
Founders had a deeply held belief that religious should not -- MUST not --
be a matter of public policy or support. It is a fact that the one and
only mention of deity in the United States Constitution is the formulaic
"year of our Lord." It is a fact that the one and only mention of religion
in the original Constitution is a clause prohibiting any and all religious
tests AT ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT. It is very telling that this is the one
and only part of the Constitution that reaches down to local government.
It is also interesting that the First Amendment first prohibits the
establishment of religion, and only second prohibits the free excercise
thereof. Again, no mention of God, no mention of Jesus, no mention of
Christianity.

Certainly, if the Founders had intended to set up a Christian country,
they would have done so. Or at least, not been so strongly opposed in
their other writings to the idea.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear

"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin

Further facts:

Thomas Jefferson, the man who actually WROTE the Declaration of
Independence, was also the author of the Virginia Act for Establishing
Religious Freedom. The meat of the Act is: "no man shall be compelled to
frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever,
nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or
goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or
belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to
maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall
in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." Please
note that "support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever"
has, over the last 300 years this law has been in place, prohibited any
and all government support of religion.

Thomas Jefferson also coined the phrase, "wall of separation between
church and state" in a letter to the Baptist Association of Danbury,
Connecticut in 1802. He was writing in response to fears by the
Association that Baptists -- then a small group considered heretics by
many Christians -- would face the same kind of persecution in the US that
they had faced in England.

You give quotes from James Madison, the principle author of the
Constitution. Here are a few you missed:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for
every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect" - letter to William
Bradford.

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the
same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of
his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to
conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" - Address to
the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785.

"In a free government, the security for civil rights must be the same as
that for religious rights. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity
of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of sects." - The
Federalist Papers, 51, published anonymously but attributed to Madison.

Regarding the power of a majority, Madison wrote in a letter to Thomas
Jefferson on October 17, 1788: "Wherever the real power in a Government
lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real
power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private
rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government
contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the
Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the
constituents."

In the Treaty of Tripoli, authorized by George Washington, ratified by a
Senate where a majority had been signers of the Constitution and signed by
John Adams, states explicitly in Article 11: "the government of the United
States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

Speaking of John Adams, our second president wrote to his son, John Quincy
Adams (the sixth president), "Let the human mind loose. It must be loose.
It will be loose. Superstition and Dogmatism cannot confine it."

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson in 1825, Adams wrote, "There exists, I
believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it
blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the
Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of
Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In
England itself it is punished by boring through the tongue with a red-hot
poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I
believe, upon the whole, is as temperate and moderate in religious zeal as
most of the States, a law was made in the latter end of the last century,
repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine
and imprisonment upon all those blasphemers upon any book of the Old
Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely
encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for
investigating into the divine authority of those books? Who would run the
risk of translating Dupuis? But I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though
I have it much at heart. I think such laws a great embarrassment, great
obstructions to the improvement of the human mind. Books that cannot bear
examination, certainly ought not to be established as divine inspiration
by penal laws. It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in
execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to
venture to depart from them. But as long as they continue in force as
laws, the human mind must make an awkward and clumsy progress in its
investigations. I wish they were repealed. The substance and essence of
Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and unchangeable, and will
bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with extraneous
ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they ought to be
separated."

There are many other such quotes: Benjamin Franklin. Thomas Paine. Ethan
Allen. John Hancock. Regardless of their *personal* beliefs, most of the
Founders had a deeply held belief that religious should not -- MUST not --
be a matter of public policy or support. It is a fact that the one and
only mention of deity in the United States Constitution is the formulaic
"year of our Lord." It is a fact that the one and only mention of religion
in the original Constitution is a clause prohibiting any and all religious
tests AT ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT. It is very telling that this is the one
and only part of the Constitution that reaches down to local government.
It is also interesting that the First Amendment first prohibits the
establishment of religion, and only second prohibits the free excercise
thereof. Again, no mention of God, no mention of Jesus, no mention of
Christianity.

Certainly, if the Founders had intended to set up a Christian country,
they would have done so. Or at least, not been so strongly opposed in
their other writings to the idea.

Further facts:

Thomas Jefferson, the man who actually WROTE the Declaration of
Independence, was also the author of the Virginia Act for Establishing
Religious Freedom. The meat of the Act is: "no man shall be compelled to
frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever,
nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or
goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or
belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to
maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall
in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." Please
note that "support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever"
has, over the last 300 years this law has been in place, prohibited any
and all government support of religion.

Thomas Jefferson also coined the phrase, "wall of separation between
church and state" in a letter to the Baptist Association of Danbury,
Connecticut in 1802. He was writing in response to fears by the
Association that Baptists -- then a small group considered heretics by
many Christians -- would face the same kind of persecution in the US that
they had faced in England.

You give quotes from James Madison, the principle author of the
Constitution. Here are a few you missed:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for
every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect" - letter to William
Bradford.

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the
same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of
his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to
conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" - Address to
the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785.

"In a free government, the security for civil rights must be the same as
that for religious rights. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity
of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of sects." - The
Federalist Papers, 51, published anonymously but attributed to Madison.

Regarding the power of a majority, Madison wrote in a letter to Thomas
Jefferson on October 17, 1788: "Wherever the real power in a Government
lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real
power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private
rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government
contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the
Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the
constituents."

In the Treaty of Tripoli, authorized by George Washington, ratified by a
Senate where a majority had been signers of the Constitution and signed by
John Adams, states explicitly in Article 11: "the government of the United
States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

Speaking of John Adams, our second president wrote to his son, John Quincy
Adams (the sixth president), "Let the human mind loose. It must be loose.
It will be loose. Superstition and Dogmatism cannot confine it."

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson in 1825, Adams wrote, "There exists, I
believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it
blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the
Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of
Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In
England itself it is punished by boring through the tongue with a red-hot
poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I
believe, upon the whole, is as temperate and moderate in religious zeal as
most of the States, a law was made in the latter end of the last century,
repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine
and imprisonment upon all those blasphemers upon any book of the Old
Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely
encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for
investigating into the divine authority of those books? Who would run the
risk of translating Dupuis? But I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though
I have it much at heart. I think such laws a great embarrassment, great
obstructions to the improvement of the human mind. Books that cannot bear
examination, certainly ought not to be established as divine inspiration
by penal laws. It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in
execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to
venture to depart from them. But as long as they continue in force as
laws, the human mind must make an awkward and clumsy progress in its
investigations. I wish they were repealed. The substance and essence of
Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and unchangeable, and will
bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with extraneous
ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they ought to be
separated."

There are many other such quotes: Benjamin Franklin. Thomas Paine. Ethan
Allen. John Hancock. Regardless of their *personal* beliefs, most of the
Founders had a deeply held belief that religious should not -- MUST not --
be a matter of public policy or support. It is a fact that the one and
only mention of deity in the United States Constitution is the formulaic
"year of our Lord." It is a fact that the one and only mention of religion
in the original Constitution is a clause prohibiting any and all religious
tests AT ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT. It is very telling that this is the one
and only part of the Constitution that reaches down to local government.
It is also interesting that the First Amendment first prohibits the
establishment of religion, and only second prohibits the free excercise
thereof. Again, no mention of God, no mention of Jesus, no mention of
Christianity.

Certainly, if the Founders had intended to set up a Christian country,
they would have done so. Or at least, not been so strongly opposed in
their other writings to the idea.

On 12 May 2004 03:16:00 -0700,

FACTS, you Godless cur. FACTS. Not the secular sort of dudes you'd
like us to think they were, now are they...?

They were also slaveowners. Does that mean slavey is good? It MUST
be....the "founding fathers" said so.