Religions > Atheism > A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
09 Dec 2005 01:25:06 AM |
| Object: |
A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
http://helives.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_helives_archive.html#113335643451616135
A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
Having dealt with the common "bad" arguments, we look at a good
one. Again, we cannot make a mathematical, bullet proof justification.
This argument will be most helpful to those who generally agree that
the bible is reliable and written in "good faith" but not
necessarily inerrant. If you think the bible is a complete fiction,
then no human reasoning without concomitant divine intervention will
make you think otherwise.
As an example, I recently had an exchange (yes, on Panda's Thumb)
with a bible-denier who claimed no New Testament scripture could have
been written before the second century. (This he stated
matter-of-factly, with no evidence.)
I argued:
That is utter, revisionist nonsense for many reasons, including
circumstantial.
For example, there is no mention (except prophetically) of the
destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Roman legions in AD 70. This
means that these Jewish writers didn't think it important to mention,
even in passing, the massacre of about a million Jews and the
enslavement and relocation of 200,000 others. Not to mention the
desecration and destruction of their center of worship.
This would be akin to multiple Jewish writers penning a history of the
twentieth century without mentioning the Holocaust.
When others joined in (not on my side) my regrettable snarkiness got
the better of me, and I wrote:
But to assume the gospels and the epistles, even if they are fiction,
were written around AD 100 and (the writers) didn't bother to weave
in the destruction of Jerusalem, an event known from independent
accounts to be factual, (well) the only argument you could make is that
the writers conspired thusly:
Let's write a (fake) history of events from seventy (or more) years
ago, so that we can have cushy ecclesiastical jobs, all that pesky
persecution being little more than an annoyance.
Oh, let's not mention our holocaust of AD 70 so that it will look
like we wrote these before that event.
Oh, just for kicks, let's put fake prophecy about AD 70 into the
mouth of our invention, Jesus.
Oh, but lets be very clever and make (the bulk of it) it vague. Not in
the sense of the Oracle of Delphi, but so that in the distant future,
many people will think it refers to a still future event, so that our
descendants can continue to milk the same prophetic text as referring
to a rapture and great tribulation.
And then you'd have to get Clement of Rome, just for another example,
to insert into his writings of that era fictional references to
Paul's nonexistent letters to the Corinthians.
And of course, the failure to mention the events of AD 70 is just one
reason why the late date is nonsense.
As you might have guessed, this approach didn't work, because the
response was generally along the lines of: yeah, that sounds about
right.
(Aside to my fellow Christians who do believe the prophecy to which I
am referring, the Olivet discourse (Matt. 24) is indeed about a future
Great Tribulation--well that's a separate issue that we have looked at
in the past and will look at again in the near future.)
So keeping in mind that the target is (for the most part) the believer
who wants to learn why he can be confident in biblical inerrancy,
let's move forward.
The Testimony of Jesus
Our approach is to appeal to the testimony of Jesus. Jesus himself
expresses the highest view of Scripture, saying that "not the
smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen" in the law shall
disappear or fail to be accomplished. (Matt. 5:18) We also know that
Jesus was prone to use scripture in his arguments, often beginning
sentences with "It is written" and to proclaim that he is the
Messiah (Luke 4:21). And of course, Jesus used scripture alone when
tempted by Satan.
In short, Jesus asserts that all of Scripture is inspired, inerrant,
infallible, and authoritative to the letter. Therefore, the proper view
of biblical inerrancy affirms not only the general events and doctrines
taught in Scripture, but it affirms that God has infallibly caused to
be written the very words used in the Bible. To deny this or to affirm
anything short of this is to call Jesus a liar.
By now you should be screaming: yes all that is fine and good but you
are appealing to the bible as evidence for what Jesus said, and so it
cannot be proof of inerrancy. You are correct. It is just background.
Bootstrapping
We will use a bootstrapping approach. Here the idea is to build a
logical chain from the least controversial claim to the conclusion,
that the bible is the inerrant Word of God. The "proof" is then as
strong as the weakest link.
Sproul uses a Christ-based bootstrapping argument based on this chain:
The Bible is a basically reliable and trustworthy document.
On the basis of this reliable document we have sufficient evidence to
believe confidently that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ being the Son of God is an inerrant authority.
Jesus Christ teaches that the Bible is more than generally trustworthy;
it is the very Word of God.
The word, in that it comes from God, is utterly trustworthy because God
is utterly trustworthy.
Conclusion--On the basis of the inerrant authority of Jesus Christ, the
church believes the Bible to be utterly trustworthy; i.e., inerrant.
We will use a similar chain:
Jesus is a real historic figure
The gospels are, at least, reasonable historic accounts
Jesus performed miracles
Miracles are a sign from God that the person performing them is a
prophet
As a prophet, Jesus would speak the truth
Jesus affirmed the bible as the word of God
Conclusion--Therefore, the bible is the word of God
Jesus is a historic figure
This receives very little criticism, even in secular circles.
Non-Christian historians such as Josephus discuss Jesus. (Note:
references to the resurrection in Josephus' Antiquities were probably
redactions by misguided Christians. However, the core reference to
Jesus is generally considered reliable.)
The Roman historian Tacitus (ca. 56-ca. 117) wrote, describing
Rome's burning under Nero:
Nero fastened the guilt... on a class hated for their abominations,
called Christians by the populace. Christus (Christ), from whom the
name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of
Tiberius at the hands of... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous
superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in
Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even Rome... (Tacitus, Annals
15.44, cited in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.)
There are references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, of which the
earliest period of compilation occurred between AD 70 to AD 200. One
reference to Jesus from this period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the
execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be
stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to
apostasy."
There are also references in the writings of Pliny the Younger, the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minorca, ca. 112 (where he seeks
advice from Rome on how to prosecute Christians). The Greek playwright
Lucian (AD 120- ~180) mentions (satirically) Christians and Christ
(though not by name). Even the Koran mentions Jesus. There is little
argument that Jesus existed.
The gospels are, at least, reasonable historic accounts
Again, there is little argument here. Both historically and
archeologically, the gospels have proved to be models of reliability.
In particular, no archeological work has ever disproved a claim of one
of the gospels.
In his article The Inerrancy of Scripture Tim Challies writes:
Only a couple of generations ago, scholars pointed to the Bible's claim
that there was a king of Assyria named Tiglath-Pileser as an error, for
archaeological evidence had not proven that any such king existed. But
then archaeologists excavated Tiglath-Pileser's capital city and found
this carved into bricks: "I, Tiglath-Pileser, king of Assyria..." It is
a fact that "the results of sound scholarship have not tended to
uncover more and more problems...Rather they have tended to resolve
problems and to show that what were once thought to be errors are not
errors at all" (James Boice, Whatever Happened to the Gospel of Grace,
page 70). R.C. Sproul writes, "The Christian has nothing to fear from
rigorous historical research. Rather, we have everything to gain."
Jesus performed miracles
Given that we know the gospels are reasonable historic writings, and
not subject to wild speculation, we acknowledge that Jesus performed
miracles. We know that not only did his friends attest to and write
down his miracles, his enemies also acknowledged them, although they
attributed his miraculous works to Satan. Furthermore, his miracles
were witnessed by a large number of people, many of whom would have had
ample opportunity to deny the miracles when the apostles began
preaching in Jerusalem. This is no known account of someone claiming
"I was there, I was among the crowd, and that didn't happen."
There is, of course, a great deal of skepticism among even some who say
they are Christians about the truth of the miracles, but most
acknowledge that the writers of the gospels believed that had witnessed
actual miracles, i.e., they were not lying.
Miracles are a sign from God that the person performing them is a
prophet
Miracles are expressions of divine power and as such they bear witness
to the fact that the performer has been marked by God as His prophet.
They are, in fact, God offering proof that the messenger is His
messenger. They do not necessarily imply deity: God has empowered
humans (such as Moses) to perform miracles, or to be the conveyor of
miraculous, divine power. If a human performs a true miracle, we are
confident that he doing so at the pleasure of God, the ultimate power
behind the miracle.
We conclude then, at a minimum, Jesus was a prophet of God.
As a prophet, Jesus would speak the truth
As a prophet of God, speaking as God's messenger, Jesus would speak
the truth. The assumption here is that God would not go to the trouble
of providing the credentials of a prophet, via miracles, without
ensuring that the messenger's message was true.
In fact, the prophet will speak the truth even though he will often not
understand what he is saying. Prophets generally do not understand
their own prophecy. Peter tells us that their prophecy (concerning
Jesus) was not for them or even their contemporaries, but for us (1
Peter 1:10-12). That we may look back and see how the prophecy was
fulfilled. If you believe that the story of Jesus is generally true, it
is useful to go back and study the Messianic prophecies of the Old
Testament. Then you will see how precisely it was filled, which should
give further confidence in biblical inerrancy. (Or, once again, that it
was a carefully crafted fiction.)
This is a crucial point. The bible is so self-referential (across vast
time periods), and so detailed, and so specific, that the only two
rational choices are that it is the truth or it is a pack of lies.
Jesus affirmed the bible as the word of God
As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, Jesus attested to scripture
being of God on many occasions. Again, most liberal scholars do not
dispute that Jesus spoke of scripture as being inspired. However, a
claim is sometimes made that Jesus was mislead by his times-the Jews
of that day also believed in inspiration. Jesus, in his human nature,
it is argued, was not omniscient (Matt. 24:36). This is true, but we do
not rely on Jesus' omniscience but his sinlessness. For He makes bold
claims of doing nothing except the father's bidding-claims that
would be outright lies regardless of His times or the lack of
omniscience of His human nature. Thus Jesus, as truthful messenger,
could not have treated the bible as inspired solely because he was
misled by His times.
Therefore, the bible is the word of God
Since Jesus is a true prophet, and He taught of the authority of
scripture, then scripture must indeed be the word of God.
In summary-the gospels, once we grant their being generally reliable
as almost all scholars do-then bootstraps itself into being the word
of God through the claims of Jesus. The only real alternative, if the
gospel writers were even just mostly reliable, is that Jesus was the
consummate fraud and fakir. His miracles have not been disputed,
including a bold prediction that Jerusalem itself would be destroyed
within a generation. The only hole in this approach is if you believe
that a true prophet could lie, and Jesus lied egregiously when it came
to his view of scripture.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
15 Dec 2005 10:54:35 AM |
|
|
Bible-NT- needs not to be the Words of God to be true.
It need to be consistent with the words of God. that is to
say the Torah
words of truth wrote:
http://helives.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_helives_archive.html#113335643451616135
A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
Having dealt with the common "bad" arguments, we look at a good
one. Again, we cannot make a mathematical, bullet proof justification.
This argument will be most helpful to those who generally agree that
the bible is reliable and written in "good faith" but not
necessarily inerrant. If you think the bible is a complete fiction,
then no human reasoning without concomitant divine intervention will
make you think otherwise.
As an example, I recently had an exchange (yes, on Panda's Thumb)
with a bible-denier who claimed no New Testament scripture could have
been written before the second century. (This he stated
matter-of-factly, with no evidence.)
I argued:
That is utter, revisionist nonsense for many reasons, including
circumstantial.
For example, there is no mention (except prophetically) of the
destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by Roman legions in AD 70. This
means that these Jewish writers didn't think it important to mention,
even in passing, the massacre of about a million Jews and the
enslavement and relocation of 200,000 others. Not to mention the
desecration and destruction of their center of worship.
This would be akin to multiple Jewish writers penning a history of the
twentieth century without mentioning the Holocaust.
When others joined in (not on my side) my regrettable snarkiness got
the better of me, and I wrote:
But to assume the gospels and the epistles, even if they are fiction,
were written around AD 100 and (the writers) didn't bother to weave
in the destruction of Jerusalem, an event known from independent
accounts to be factual, (well) the only argument you could make is that
the writers conspired thusly:
Let's write a (fake) history of events from seventy (or more) years
ago, so that we can have cushy ecclesiastical jobs, all that pesky
persecution being little more than an annoyance.
Oh, let's not mention our holocaust of AD 70 so that it will look
like we wrote these before that event.
Oh, just for kicks, let's put fake prophecy about AD 70 into the
mouth of our invention, Jesus.
Oh, but lets be very clever and make (the bulk of it) it vague. Not in
the sense of the Oracle of Delphi, but so that in the distant future,
many people will think it refers to a still future event, so that our
descendants can continue to milk the same prophetic text as referring
to a rapture and great tribulation.
And then you'd have to get Clement of Rome, just for another example,
to insert into his writings of that era fictional references to
Paul's nonexistent letters to the Corinthians.
And of course, the failure to mention the events of AD 70 is just one
reason why the late date is nonsense.
As you might have guessed, this approach didn't work, because the
response was generally along the lines of: yeah, that sounds about
right.
(Aside to my fellow Christians who do believe the prophecy to which I
am referring, the Olivet discourse (Matt. 24) is indeed about a future
Great Tribulation--well that's a separate issue that we have looked at
in the past and will look at again in the near future.)
So keeping in mind that the target is (for the most part) the believer
who wants to learn why he can be confident in biblical inerrancy,
let's move forward.
The Testimony of Jesus
Our approach is to appeal to the testimony of Jesus. Jesus himself
expresses the highest view of Scripture, saying that "not the
smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen" in the law shall
disappear or fail to be accomplished. (Matt. 5:18) We also know that
Jesus was prone to use scripture in his arguments, often beginning
sentences with "It is written" and to proclaim that he is the
Messiah (Luke 4:21). And of course, Jesus used scripture alone when
tempted by Satan.
In short, Jesus asserts that all of Scripture is inspired, inerrant,
infallible, and authoritative to the letter. Therefore, the proper view
of biblical inerrancy affirms not only the general events and doctrines
taught in Scripture, but it affirms that God has infallibly caused to
be written the very words used in the Bible. To deny this or to affirm
anything short of this is to call Jesus a liar.
By now you should be screaming: yes all that is fine and good but you
are appealing to the bible as evidence for what Jesus said, and so it
cannot be proof of inerrancy. You are correct. It is just background.
Bootstrapping
We will use a bootstrapping approach. Here the idea is to build a
logical chain from the least controversial claim to the conclusion,
that the bible is the inerrant Word of God. The "proof" is then as
strong as the weakest link.
Sproul uses a Christ-based bootstrapping argument based on this chain:
The Bible is a basically reliable and trustworthy document.
On the basis of this reliable document we have sufficient evidence to
believe confidently that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ being the Son of God is an inerrant authority.
Jesus Christ teaches that the Bible is more than generally trustworthy;
it is the very Word of God.
The word, in that it comes from God, is utterly trustworthy because God
is utterly trustworthy.
Conclusion--On the basis of the inerrant authority of Jesus Christ, the
church believes the Bible to be utterly trustworthy; i.e., inerrant.
We will use a similar chain:
Jesus is a real historic figure
The gospels are, at least, reasonable historic accounts
Jesus performed miracles
Miracles are a sign from God that the person performing them is a
prophet
As a prophet, Jesus would speak the truth
Jesus affirmed the bible as the word of God
Conclusion--Therefore, the bible is the word of God
Jesus is a historic figure
This receives very little criticism, even in secular circles.
Non-Christian historians such as Josephus discuss Jesus. (Note:
references to the resurrection in Josephus' Antiquities were probably
redactions by misguided Christians. However, the core reference to
Jesus is generally considered reliable.)
The Roman historian Tacitus (ca. 56-ca. 117) wrote, describing
Rome's burning under Nero:
Nero fastened the guilt... on a class hated for their abominations,
called Christians by the populace. Christus (Christ), from whom the
name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of
Tiberius at the hands of... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous
superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in
Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even Rome... (Tacitus, Annals
15.44, cited in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.)
There are references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, of which the
earliest period of compilation occurred between AD 70 to AD 200. One
reference to Jesus from this period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the
execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be
stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to
apostasy."
There are also references in the writings of Pliny the Younger, the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minorca, ca. 112 (where he seeks
advice from Rome on how to prosecute Christians). The Greek playwright
Lucian (AD 120- ~180) mentions (satirically) Christians and Christ
(though not by name). Even the Koran mentions Jesus. There is little
argument that Jesus existed.
The gospels are, at least, reasonable historic accounts
Again, there is little argument here. Both historically and
archeologically, the gospels have proved to be models of reliability.
In particular, no archeological work has ever disproved a claim of one
of the gospels.
In his article The Inerrancy of Scripture Tim Challies writes:
Only a couple of generations ago, scholars pointed to the Bible's claim
that there was a king of Assyria named Tiglath-Pileser as an error, for
archaeological evidence had not proven that any such king existed. But
then archaeologists excavated Tiglath-Pileser's capital city and found
this carved into bricks: "I, Tiglath-Pileser, king of Assyria..." It is
a fact that "the results of sound scholarship have not tended to
uncover more and more problems...Rather they have tended to resolve
problems and to show that what were once thought to be errors are not
errors at all" (James Boice, Whatever Happened to the Gospel of Grace,
page 70). R.C. Sproul writes, "The Christian has nothing to fear from
rigorous historical research. Rather, we have everything to gain."
Jesus performed miracles
Given that we know the gospels are reasonable historic writings, and
not subject to wild speculation, we acknowledge that Jesus performed
miracles. We know that not only did his friends attest to and write
down his miracles, his enemies also acknowledged them, although they
attributed his miraculous works to Satan. Furthermore, his miracles
were witnessed by a large number of people, many of whom would have had
ample opportunity to deny the miracles when the apostles began
preaching in Jerusalem. This is no known account of someone claiming
"I was there, I was among the crowd, and that didn't happen."
There is, of course, a great deal of skepticism among even some who say
they are Christians about the truth of the miracles, but most
acknowledge that the writers of the gospels believed that had witnessed
actual miracles, i.e., they were not lying.
Miracles are a sign from God that the person performing them is a
prophet
Miracles are expressions of divine power and as such they bear witness
to the fact that the performer has been marked by God as His prophet.
They are, in fact, God offering proof that the messenger is His
messenger. They do not necessarily imply deity: God has empowered
humans (such as Moses) to perform miracles, or to be the conveyor of
miraculous, divine power. If a human performs a true miracle, we are
confident that he doing so at the pleasure of God, the ultimate power
behind the miracle.
We conclude then, at a minimum, Jesus was a prophet of God.
As a prophet, Jesus would speak the truth
As a prophet of God, speaking as God's messenger, Jesus would speak
the truth. The assumption here is that God would not go to the trouble
of providing the credentials of a prophet, via miracles, without
ensuring that the messenger's message was true.
In fact, the prophet will speak the truth even though he will often not
understand what he is saying. Prophets generally do not understand
their own prophecy. Peter tells us that their prophecy (concerning
Jesus) was not for them or even their contemporaries, but for us (1
Peter 1:10-12). That we may look back and see how the prophecy was
fulfilled. If you believe that the story of Jesus is generally true, it
is useful to go back and study the Messianic prophecies of the Old
Testament. Then you will see how precisely it was filled, which should
give further confidence in biblical inerrancy. (Or, once again, that it
was a carefully crafted fiction.)
This is a crucial point. The bible is so self-referential (across vast
time periods), and so detailed, and so specific, that the only two
rational choices are that it is the truth or it is a pack of lies.
Jesus affirmed the bible as the word of God
As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, Jesus attested to scripture
being of God on many occasions. Again, most liberal scholars do not
dispute that Jesus spoke of scripture as being inspired. However, a
claim is sometimes made that Jesus was mislead by his times-the Jews
of that day also believed in inspiration. Jesus, in his human nature,
it is argued, was not omniscient (Matt. 24:36). This is true, but we do
not rely on Jesus' omniscience but his sinlessness. For He makes bold
claims of doing nothing except the father's bidding-claims that
would be outright lies regardless of His times or the lack of
omniscience of His human nature. Thus Jesus, as truthful messenger,
could not have treated the bible as inspired solely because he was
misled by His times.
Therefore, the bible is the word of God
Since Jesus is a true prophet, and He taught of the authority of
scripture, then scripture must indeed be the word of God.
In summary-the gospels, once we grant their being generally reliable
as almost all scholars do-then bootstraps itself into being the word
of God through the claims of Jesus. The only real alternative, if the
gospel writers were even just mostly reliable, is that Jesus was the
consummate fraud and fakir. His miracles have not been disputed,
including a bold prediction that Jerusalem itself would be destroyed
within a generation. The only hole in this approach is if you believe
that a true prophet could lie, and Jesus lied egregiously when it came
to his view of scripture.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word OfGod |
15 Dec 2005 07:05:56 PM |
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wrote:
Bible-NT- needs not to be the Words of God to be true.
It need to be consistent with the words of God. that is to
say the Torah
===>You have no idea about the what, why and
where from the Torah!
It is a COMPOSITE production of SEVERAL writers,
ALL HUMAN EARTHLINGS, no "God"! -- L.
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
09 Dec 2005 08:05:22 AM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in
news:1134113106.695629.162530@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
Having dealt with the common "bad" arguments, we look at a good
one. Again, we cannot make a mathematical, bullet proof justification.
This argument will be most helpful to those who generally agree that
the bible is reliable and written in "good faith" but not
necessarily inerrant.
[snip]
So it's not proof, and it's not a solid basis to believe unless you
already believe. Utter crap, in other words.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
http://www.musings.leaddogs.org/
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
"Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not
committing them?"
* Jules Feiffer
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
09 Dec 2005 01:42:04 AM |
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"words of truth" wrote
: Having dealt with the common "bad" arguments, we look at a good
: one. Again, we cannot make a mathematical, bullet proof justification.
: This argument will be most helpful to those who generally agree that
: the bible is reliable and written in "good faith" but not
: necessarily inerrant.
This doesn't match the subject title.
: Jesus Christ teaches that the Bible is more than generally trustworthy;
: it is the very Word of God.
Then why isn't it completely inerrant?
: The word, in that it comes from God, is utterly trustworthy because God
: is utterly trustworthy.
Circular reasoning at its finest.
: Jesus is a historic figure
: This receives very little criticism, even in secular circles.
: Non-Christian historians such as Josephus discuss Jesus. (Note:
: references to the resurrection in Josephus' Antiquities were probably
: redactions by misguided Christians. However, the core reference to
: Jesus is generally considered reliable.)
:
: The Roman historian Tacitus (ca. 56-ca. 117) wrote, describing
: Rome's burning under Nero:
: Nero fastened the guilt... on a class hated for their abominations,
: called Christians by the populace. Christus (Christ), from whom the
: name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of
: Tiberius at the hands of... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous
: superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in
: Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even Rome... (Tacitus, Annals
: 15.44, cited in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.)
This passage talks about "Christians". It says nothing about Jesus being a
historic figure
: The gospels are, at least, reasonable historic accounts
Define reasonable.
: Again, there is little argument here. Both historically and
: archeologically, the gospels have proved to be models of reliability.
: In particular, no archeological work has ever disproved a claim of one
: of the gospels.
But, has any archeological work has ever proved a claim of any of the
gospels.
: Therefore, the bible is the word of God
: Since Jesus is a true prophet, and He taught of the authority of
: scripture, then scripture must indeed be the word of God.
Will it go 'round in circles, will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
: In summary-the gospels, once we grant their being generally reliable
: as almost all scholars do-then bootstraps itself into being the word
: of God through the claims of Jesus. The only real alternative, if the
: gospel writers were even just mostly reliable, is that Jesus was the
: consummate fraud and fakir. His miracles have not been disputed,
: including a bold prediction that Jerusalem itself would be destroyed
: within a generation. The only hole in this approach is if you believe
: that a true prophet could lie, and Jesus lied egregiously when it came
: to his view of scripture.
What a hunk of junk.
--
Bear
What I am is what I am. Are you what you are or what? -Edie Brickell
It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing,
than to believe what is wrong. -Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word OfGod |
09 Dec 2005 08:21:41 AM |
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Aren't you making the same assertion that Paul Bunyan proves the Grand Teton
mountains were piled up when he and Babe wrestled?
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[W]e have never held that moral disapproval, without any other asserted
state interest, is a sufficient rationale under the Equal Protection
Clause to justify a law that discriminates among groups of persons."
- Sandra Day O`Conner, _Lawrence v Texas_
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=02-102
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
09 Dec 2005 10:17:52 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
....
Conclusion--On the basis of the inerrant authority of Jesus Christ, the
church believes the Bible to be utterly trustworthy; i.e., inerrant.
We will use a similar chain:
....
LOL!!
Hey WoT !! What was you sayin' about a SOLID Basis for Biblical
Inerrancy?
Regards,
Josef
As long as there are fundamentalists to expose the silly side of
religion, atheists will never need to recruit.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word OfGod |
09 Dec 2005 04:04:15 PM |
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Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
...
Conclusion--On the basis of the inerrant authority of Jesus Christ, the
church believes the Bible to be utterly trustworthy; i.e., inerrant.
We will use a similar chain:
...
LOL!!
Hey WoT !! What was you sayin' about a SOLID Basis for Biblical
Inerrancy?
===>As solid as Jello! ;-)
Their arguments "prove" there is a Land of OZ ruled
by a Wizard! -- L.
Regards,
Josef
As long as there are fundamentalists to expose the silly side of
religion, atheists will never need to recruit.
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| User: "stone" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
10 Dec 2005 03:08:42 AM |
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Libertarius wrote in message <4399FF5F.5C6B1363@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
...
Conclusion--On the basis of the inerrant authority of Jesus Christ, the
church believes the Bible to be utterly trustworthy; i.e., inerrant.
We will use a similar chain:
...
LOL!!
Hey WoT !! What was you sayin' about a SOLID Basis for Biblical
Inerrancy?
===>As solid as Jello! ;-)
Their arguments "prove" there is a Land of OZ ruled
by a Wizard! -- L.
Regards,
Josef
As long as there are fundamentalists to expose the silly side of
religion, atheists will never need to recruit.
Can't bring myself to feel sorry for you, Libertarius. What is going to
happen to you, in the afterlife, you are bringing it upon yourself.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: - AFTERLIFE? |
10 Dec 2005 10:36:38 AM |
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stone wrote:
Libertarius wrote in message <4399FF5F.5C6B1363@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
Josef Balluch wrote:
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
...
Conclusion--On the basis of the inerrant authority of Jesus Christ, the
church believes the Bible to be utterly trustworthy; i.e., inerrant.
We will use a similar chain:
...
LOL!!
Hey WoT !! What was you sayin' about a SOLID Basis for Biblical
Inerrancy?
===>As solid as Jello! ;-)
Their arguments "prove" there is a Land of OZ ruled
by a Wizard! -- L.
Regards,
Josef
As long as there are fundamentalists to expose the silly side of
religion, atheists will never need to recruit.
Can't bring myself to feel sorry for you, Libertarius. What is going to
happen to you, in the afterlife, you are bringing it upon yourself.
===>What "afterlife", you poor misled nitwit?
The Bible itself tells you that our fate will be THE SAME!
# Ecclesiastes 3:19
"Man's fate is like that of the animals;
the same fate awaits them both:
As one dies, so dies the other.
All have the same breath ;
man has no advantage over the animal.
Everything is meaningless." (NIV)
REPEAT: Everything is meaningless,
especially your silly whining about "afterlife".
SEE ALSO:
9:2-3
All share a common destiny—
the righteous and the wicked,
the good and the bad,
the clean and the unclean,
those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
As it is with the good man,
so with the sinner;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.
....The same destiny overtakes all...
they join the dead."
So, THERE!
Deny THAT truth with your silly "afterlife" nonsense! -- L.
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| User: "Yournameheres personal Cthulhu" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
09 Dec 2005 03:36:33 AM |
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In alt.atheism , words of truth said:
we cannot make a mathematical, bullet proof justification.
well, STFU and FOAD, then.
------------------------------------------------
Look at the logo and tell me Christianity isn't a death cult.
D Silverman BAAWA and bar.
AA #2208
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| User: "Steve Franklin" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
20 Dec 2005 10:21:20 PM |
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It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is inerrant hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for 800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever laid eyes on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little snipets of the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and think that those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to be brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
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| User: "Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
21 Dec 2005 06:00:57 AM |
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You seem to be sincere and seeking truth. That is good; but God and
His Son
Jesus Christ have made the job easier than you seem to have found. True
knowledge from God is available to us who have received the baptism of the
Holy Spirit with the First Evidence of speaking in tongues as the Holy
Spirit moves the mouth. God is a "now" God, and so we don't have to depend
so much on books when we can simply ask God in prayer. This is right;
there is nothing wrong with getting the same kind of baptism of the Holy
Spirit as they did on that famous Day of Pentecost, written about in the
Book of Acts, Chapter 2; and being able to ask God and He answer us back.
We REAL Christians KNOW that we have the best
that God has provided. We have some of God's Holy Spirit. We can ask God
anything; and we can ask God about me and any other preacher. Know God for
yourself. Fall in love with God. Pray this prayer: God, Thank You for
Thy Son Jesus. Whatever I must do or not do, show it to me and I will obey
You. Thank
You God. Pray the prayer now.
"Steve Franklin" <trash@lordbalto.com> wrote in message
news:4L4qf.50821$Ht4.596@trnddc08...
It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is inerrant
hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of
Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually read
some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the
chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no
equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for 800
years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain lack
of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever laid eyes
on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little snipets of
the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and think that
those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to be
brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
24 Dec 2005 09:59:52 AM |
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On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:00:57 -0500, "Thomas"
<thomasbatchelor@juno.com> wrote:
You seem to be sincere and seeking truth. That is good; but God and
Why the dishonest language ?
What is there to "Seek"? And why lie about your religious belief being
"truth" that everybody else should seek?
Demonstrate that this God-thingy actually exists in the real world
outside your masturbatory fantasies. Until you do that you have
nothing to say and are just being rudely stupid.
His Son
Bzzzt. Figments of your deluded imagination can't have sons. After you
have remonstrated its existence feel free to demonstrate it also had a
son.
Until then you are just being rudely in-your-face stupid.
[rest of this stupid ***** snipped]
You guys really have no idea how to deal with the real world where
yours is merely one of thousands different religions and
deity-beliefs, or to communicate with people outside your religion.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
21 Dec 2005 05:12:34 PM |
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On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:00:57 -0500, "Thomas"
<thomasbatchelor@juno.com> wrote:
You seem to be sincere and seeking truth. That is good; but God and
His Son
Jesus Christ have made the job easier than you seem to have found. True
knowledge from God is available to us who have received the baptism of the
Holy Spirit with the First Evidence of speaking in tongues as the Holy
Spirit moves the mouth. God is a "now" God, and so we don't have to depend
so much on books when we can simply ask God in prayer. This is right;
there is nothing wrong with getting the same kind of baptism of the Holy
Spirit as they did on that famous Day of Pentecost, written about in the
Book of Acts, Chapter 2; and being able to ask God and He answer us back.
We REAL Christians KNOW that we have the best
that God has provided. We have some of God's Holy Spirit. We can ask God
anything; and we can ask God about me and any other preacher. Know God for
yourself. Fall in love with God. Pray this prayer: God, Thank You for
Thy Son Jesus. Whatever I must do or not do, show it to me and I will obey
You. Thank
You God. Pray the prayer now.
:
Whoa!!
We've a live one here!
.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
22 Dec 2005 01:55:58 AM |
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We've a live one here!
you don't have much chance reasoning with a person whose Weltanschauung
consists of a cosmic struggle between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.
anything you say will be absorbed and extinguished by "the shield of
`pistia`"
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
22 Dec 2005 02:08:18 AM |
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On 21 Dec 2005 23:55:58 -0800, "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
<hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote:
We've a live one here!
you don't have much chance reasoning with a person whose Weltanschauung
consists of a cosmic struggle between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.
anything you say will be absorbed and extinguished by "the shield of
`pistia`"
You've got to admit that it has great potential for a cheap Japanese
TV cartoon, shown in the Saturday morning time slot. ;)
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| User: "cyclotron" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
21 Dec 2005 07:53:12 AM |
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I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for 800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever laid eyes on.
That's too bad. Perhaps the Egyptian chronology will have to be
adjusted. And sorry about the Egyptian superstitions being so absurd.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
23 Dec 2005 02:26:30 AM |
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cyclotron wrote:
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for 800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever laid eyes on.
That's too bad. Perhaps the Egyptian chronology will have to be
adjusted. And sorry about the Egyptian superstitions being so absurd.
As compared to "if the penis is not mutilated one cannot be a member of the tribe"?
--
Every US method of torture including secret prisons was first described
by Israeli newspapers as being used by the Israeli military.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3539
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Larry Shiff http://www.giwersworld.org/computers/newsagent.phtml a8
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
21 Dec 2005 01:32:47 AM |
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Steve Franklin wrote:
It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is inerrant hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for 800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever laid eyes on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little snipets of the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and think that those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to be brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
i haven't read the entire thread but prima facie your statement is
correct, the Egyptian parallel is very strong IMHO
others have asserted that The Maccabees or the Persians invented the
Judaic culture but i disagree.
Not to mention that there is now evidence for people from the Levant
circa 1900 BCE inventing an alef bet and returning to the Levant with
such,
the historical circumstance of Akhn Aton the alleged first monotheist
of the semitic world,
the Egyptian record of a polity or `ethne` called Yisrael circa 1200
BCE,
the Moabite stone circa 850 BCE containing the name of a dynasty Omri,
and two silver seferot dated at minimum 600 BCE containing an excerpt
from torah sefer bemidbar numbers chapt.6 which some claim to be an
incantation to R3 but nevertheless survive in the earliest texts,
all occuring prior to Persian conquest and `galut Bavli`
This fits the chronology within the TaNaKh circa 625 BCE the discovery
of the torah
2 Kings 22
"xlqyhw hkhN hgdwl said unto $fN hsfr 'I have found the `sefer
ha'torah` in the `beiyt Y_H_V_H`"
This arrives just in time to consolidate the culture in the face of
threatened extinction.
.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
23 Dec 2005 02:24:53 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Steve Franklin wrote:
It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is inerrant hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for 800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever laid eyes on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little snipets of the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and think that those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to be brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
i haven't read the entire thread but prima facie your statement is
correct, the Egyptian parallel is very strong IMHO
others have asserted that The Maccabees or the Persians invented the
Judaic culture but i disagree.
Best guess is you are are referring at least to me in the Macabes reference. Please learn to read.
I have never said they invented the culture. I said the invented the religion much as Joseph Smith
invented the Latter Day Saints. That is not inventing a culture. Obviously the Septuagint does not
capture the Judean culture. "Astarte his consort" should make that obvious if nothing else does.
Astarte's Temple in Jerusalem usually called Strato's Tower should make it obvious the real culture
of Judea has two deities. And so far as records have survived Astarte had at least two temples to
Yahweh's one so we can judge their relative importance. Obviously the Septuagint did not invent the
local culture, it invented the later religion when it adopted monotheism about the same time as
Christianity in the 5th century AD.
--
Since 9/11 only two terrorist cells have been captured intact in the US.
Both had bombs and target lists. Both were Jewish, led Rubin in LA and
Goldstein in Tampa.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3534
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Larry Shiff http://www.giwersworld.org/computers/newsagent.phtml a8
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
23 Dec 2005 09:54:54 AM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Steve Franklin wrote:
It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is inerrant
hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of
Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually
read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the
chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no
equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for 800
years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain
lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever laid
eyes on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little snipets
of the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and think
that those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to be
brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
i haven't read the entire thread but prima facie your statement is
correct, the Egyptian parallel is very strong IMHO
others have asserted that The Maccabees or the Persians invented the
Judaic culture but i disagree.
Best guess is you are are referring at least to me in the Macabes
reference. Please learn to read.
I have never said they invented the culture. I said the invented the
religion much as Joseph Smith invented the Latter Day Saints. That is
not inventing a culture. Obviously the Septuagint does not capture the
Judean culture. "Astarte his consort" should make that obvious if
nothing else does. Astarte's Temple in Jerusalem usually called Strato's
Tower should make it obvious the real culture of Judea has two deities.
And so far as records have survived Astarte had at least two temples to
Yahweh's one so we can judge their relative importance. Obviously the
Septuagint did not invent the local culture, it invented the later
religion when it adopted monotheism about the same time as Christianity
in the 5th century AD.
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third century BCE.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
24 Dec 2005 12:10:57 AM |
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|
Martin Edwards wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Steve Franklin wrote:
It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is inerrant
hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment of
Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to actually
read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the
chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no
equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for
800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just plain
lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever
laid eyes on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little snipets
of the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and
think that those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to be
brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
i haven't read the entire thread but prima facie your statement is
correct, the Egyptian parallel is very strong IMHO
others have asserted that The Maccabees or the Persians invented the
Judaic culture but i disagree.
Best guess is you are are referring at least to me in the Macabes
reference. Please learn to read.
I have never said they invented the culture. I said the invented
the religion much as Joseph Smith invented the Latter Day Saints. That
is not inventing a culture. Obviously the Septuagint does not capture
the Judean culture. "Astarte his consort" should make that obvious if
nothing else does. Astarte's Temple in Jerusalem usually called
Strato's Tower should make it obvious the real culture of Judea has
two deities. And so far as records have survived Astarte had at least
two temples to Yahweh's one so we can judge their relative importance.
Obviously the Septuagint did not invent the local culture, it invented
the later religion when it adopted monotheism about the same time as
Christianity in the 5th century AD.
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third century
BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing regarding the people we have come to call
Jews. There is no evidence in any form of any older document or older reference to the people in the
book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other document the Greek Septuagint is
the original document.
--
The biggest Iraq lie of all is they died to protect our freedoms.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3551
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
environmentalism http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a9
.
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
24 Dec 2005 10:08:35 AM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Steve Franklin wrote:
It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is
inerrant hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment
of Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to
actually read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the
chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no
equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for
800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just
plain lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever
laid eyes on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little
snipets of the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and
think that those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to be
brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
i haven't read the entire thread but prima facie your statement is
correct, the Egyptian parallel is very strong IMHO
others have asserted that The Maccabees or the Persians invented the
Judaic culture but i disagree.
Best guess is you are are referring at least to me in the Macabes
reference. Please learn to read.
I have never said they invented the culture. I said the invented
the religion much as Joseph Smith invented the Latter Day Saints.
That is not inventing a culture. Obviously the Septuagint does not
capture the Judean culture. "Astarte his consort" should make that
obvious if nothing else does. Astarte's Temple in Jerusalem usually
called Strato's Tower should make it obvious the real culture of
Judea has two deities. And so far as records have survived Astarte
had at least two temples to Yahweh's one so we can judge their
relative importance. Obviously the Septuagint did not invent the
local culture, it invented the later religion when it adopted
monotheism about the same time as Christianity in the 5th century AD.
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third
century BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing regarding
the people we have come to call Jews. There is no evidence in any form
of any older document or older reference to the people in the book. That
is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other document the
Greek Septuagint is the original document.
A fair answer, but inconsistent with your previous post, unless you
expressed yourself badly.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
24 Dec 2005 11:12:56 PM |
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Martin Edwards wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Steve Franklin wrote:
It's as simple as this: Anyone who claims that the bible is
inerrant hasn't read
the bible. Period.
I have been working on a detailed reconstruction of the alignment
of Hebrew and
Egyptian chronologies in the process of which I have had to
actually read some
fairly obscure parts of the bible and to actually think about the
chronological
implications of some of its statements and I can tell you with no
equivocation
that not only is the timescale out by an entire factor of two for
800 years but
there is more superstition, inconsistency, absurdity, and just
plain lack of
rational predication than any other serious document I have ever
laid eyes on.
The proponents of inerrancy seem to be those who read little
snipets of the
bible hand chosen for them by peculiar folks in black robes and
think that those
gems are somehow representative of the entire work, which is, to
be brutally
honest, a poorly edited conglomeration of earlier documents of
varying
authenticity and reliability.
--
Steve Franklin
http://www.lordbalto.com/
: A solid Basis for Biblical Inerrancy
i haven't read the entire thread but prima facie your statement is
correct, the Egyptian parallel is very strong IMHO
others have asserted that The Maccabees or the Persians invented the
Judaic culture but i disagree.
Best guess is you are are referring at least to me in the
Macabes reference. Please learn to read.
I have never said they invented the culture. I said the invented
the religion much as Joseph Smith invented the Latter Day Saints.
That is not inventing a culture. Obviously the Septuagint does not
capture the Judean culture. "Astarte his consort" should make that
obvious if nothing else does. Astarte's Temple in Jerusalem usually
called Strato's Tower should make it obvious the real culture of
Judea has two deities. And so far as records have survived Astarte
had at least two temples to Yahweh's one so we can judge their
relative importance. Obviously the Septuagint did not invent the
local culture, it invented the later religion when it adopted
monotheism about the same time as Christianity in the 5th century AD.
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third
century BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing
regarding the people we have come to call Jews. There is no evidence
in any form of any older document or older reference to the people in
the book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other
document the Greek Septuagint is the original document.
A fair answer, but inconsistent with your previous post, unless you
expressed yourself badly.
I don't see what is missing. What inconsistency do you see? I mean mention of the people external
to the Septuagint if that is the point. Please do not ask what the mention is. I was googling the
subject and came across it real quick and knew it would be easy to find again so I did not save the
link. Needless to say I haven't found it again. It is where get the Latter Day Saints analogy of
Joseph Smith creating a religion. Not only is it possible to create a religion but as one would
expect the mention of the people post date the book. If there were (external) mention of the people
before the book then that still becomes the date they originated but we do have another example of a
book inventing a religion.
We cannot count the Septuagint as the first mention of the people else the Lord of the Rings would
count as the first mention of Hobbits. If the people appear before the book we do not have a
definitive start for the religion.
--
Iraqis are supposed to be impressed by democracy when they see
Israeli aggression as the consequence.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3547
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Old Testament http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/ot.phtml a6
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| User: "Roger Pearse" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
24 Dec 2005 05:01:40 AM |
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Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third century
BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing regarding the people we have come to call
Jews. There is no evidence in any form of any older document or older reference to the people in the
book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other document the Greek Septuagint is
the original document.
The rules applied to every document tell a different story; the
evidence is otherwise. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise, feel
free. As it stands, I'm afraid you are asserting as fact that which
you merely wish was true.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
24 Dec 2005 10:10:27 AM |
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Roger Pearse wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third century
BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing regarding the people we have come to call
Jews. There is no evidence in any form of any older document or older reference to the people in the
book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other document the Greek Septuagint is
the original document.
The rules applied to every document tell a different story; the
evidence is otherwise. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise, feel
free. As it stands, I'm afraid you are asserting as fact that which
you merely wish was true.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
So can you quote a document earlier than the third century BCE?
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is Word Of God |
24 Dec 2005 01:21:47 PM |
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Martin Edwards wrote:
Roger Pearse wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third century
BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing regarding the people we have come to call
Jews. There is no evidence in any form of any older document or older reference to the people in the
book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other document the Greek Septuagint is
the original document.
The rules applied to every document tell a different story; the
evidence is otherwise. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise, feel
free. As it stands, I'm afraid you are asserting as fact that which
you merely wish was true.
So can you quote a document earlier than the third century BCE?
I look forward to reading your article in a peer-reviewed academic
journal in which you argue your position.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
25 Dec 2005 04:08:39 AM |
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wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Roger Pearse wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third century
BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing regarding the people we have come to call
Jews. There is no evidence in any form of any older document or older reference to the people in the
book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other document the Greek Septuagint is
the original document.
The rules applied to every document tell a different story; the
evidence is otherwise. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise, feel
free. As it stands, I'm afraid you are asserting as fact that which
you merely wish was true.
So can you quote a document earlier than the third century BCE?
I look forward to reading your article in a peer-reviewed academic
journal in which you argue your position.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
You misunderstand me. I do not stand foursquare with Mr Giwer. Look
back and you will see me probe him time and time again. I am still
trying to ascertain who has the better argument. As to academic
journals, if you have any published articles at all I'd love to read
them. A merry Yuletide to one and all.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
25 Dec 2005 05:13:42 AM |
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Martin Edwards wrote:
roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Roger Pearse wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third
century
BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing
regarding the people we have come to call
Jews. There is no evidence in any form of any older document or
older reference to the people in the
book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other
document the Greek Septuagint is
the original document.
The rules applied to every document tell a different story; the
evidence is otherwise. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise, feel
free. As it stands, I'm afraid you are asserting as fact that which
you merely wish was true.
So can you quote a document earlier than the third century BCE?
I look forward to reading your article in a peer-reviewed academic
journal in which you argue your position.
All the best,
You misunderstand me. I do not stand foursquare with Mr Giwer.
Of course you do not nor do I assume you do. It is the same with Iasion.
Arbitrary grouping is guilt by association which is what believers want.
Look
back and you will see me probe him time and time again. I am still
trying to ascertain who has the better argument. As to academic
journals, if you have any published articles at all I'd love to read
them. A merry Yuletide to one and all.
I have no argument. I have solely the only existing physical evidence. I try to draw conclusions
from the available evidence. I have no problem with exchanges with you whatsoever. At least we are
looking for what might have happened as opposed to arguing for a preconceived bible conclusion as to
what must have happened.
And the larger issue is what is the point? I think it would be fantastic to discover evidence of
Biblical Israel so we can see what it was really like if it existed. It would do more to discredit
the OT than mere skeptics could ever do.
The "Solomon could have been no more than hilltop warlord" to salvage the myth as exaggeration
would be replaced by Solomon the hilltop warlord who had this temple filled with burnt infant bones
or some such. Reality beats belief any day.
And a merry yuletide to you even though it was on the 21st this year.
--
Since 9/11 only two terrorist cells have been captured intact in the US.
Both had bombs and target lists. Both were Jewish, led Rubin in LA and
Goldstein in Tampa.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3534
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Old Testament http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/ot.phtml a6
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: A Solid Basis For Biblical Inerrancy: Jesus Proves Bible Is WordOf God |
24 Dec 2005 11:18:03 PM |
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wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Roger Pearse wrote:
Matt Giwer wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
Surely even you accept that the Septuagint dates from the third century
BCE.
Of course. And I also note it is the oldest known writing regarding the people we have come to call
Jews. There is no evidence in any form of any older document or older reference to the people in the
book. That is why I say by the same rules we apply to every other document the Greek Septuagint is
the original document.
The rules applied to every document tell a different story; the
evidence is otherwise. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise, feel
free. As it stands, I'm afraid you are asserting as fact that which
you merely wish was true.
So can you quote a document earlier than the third century BCE?
I look forward to reading your article in a peer-reviewed academic
journal in which you argue your position.
The absense of any earlier document is a fact barely worth more than the passing comment. It does
not require a paper.
As you cannot cite such a document, why do you bother responding?
--
Did anyone ever notice Jews are insanely afraid that they will be treated
the same as Christians and Muslimes are treated by Israel?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3535
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1
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