| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
18 Mar 2005 02:49:32 PM |
| Object: |
A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
The argument of atheism vs religion is really about should take a view
of existence where there is both a physical plane and spiritual
plane(dualistic), or a view of existence where there is only the
physical plane (monolistic (if there is such a word) ).
The first important thing to realise is that they can ever only be
beliefs. To believe in one view or the other is a display of faith. So
what are the odds of each? 50/50?
Some would argue that the odds aren't 50/50, that all the evidence of
scientific discoveries has weighted it in favour of the monolistic
belief.
Is this true though, or just an attempt to pull the wool over the our
eyes?
Let's take a look at it from the perspective of theoretical physics.
The first question is whether we live in an indeterministic or
deterministic universe.
Is the probability 50/50? This is where the weight of scientific
evidence comes in. It suggests that the randomness in our models is
down to human ignorance. It points to a deterministic universe. So,
what are the odds we should give? You can make up your own odds here,
but I'm going to be neutral and call it 50/50.
Let's say it was the indeterministic universe. You can either have a
spiritual plane influencing the randomness (dualistic) or simply plain
randomness itself (monolistic). What is the probability of each? By
virtue of selecting the indeterminate universe you have gone the
opposite direction from the weight any scientific evidence, it's purely
spiritual plane vs randomness (dualistic vs monolistic). So let's call
it 50/50 again.
If it is the determinate universe, is it all preordained, or
preordained up until choice is demonstrated? What are the odds for
this? Well there is simply no physical theory that explains choice, and
if you did a survey, I'm sure that most people would agree that they
have choice. Still, I'm going to call it 50/50.
If it was the deterministic universe where there is no choice and
everything is preordained, it does not mean the issue of whether there
is a spiritual plane or not disappears, it just reduces the interest
that our universe could possibly hold. As something preordained would
be relatively boring. Still if it went backwards and forwards through a
singularity forever as has been suggested, you could believe our
universe is simply an "executive toy on the desk of God". So we have a
preordained universe, but was it created from the spiritual plane or
not, what are the odds? I'd have to say 50/50 again, as there is no
evidence (which you (atheists) would accept, e.g. ancient texts) which
points to one outcome over the other.
Otherwise it is a deterministic universe up until choice is
demonstrated. With 'I' that chooses being above the physical law, the
only option here is the dualistic version.
So what seem to be the odds of the dualistic view of existence? There
are three outcomes which lead to a dualistic universe.
The indeterministic universe (0.5) where there is a spiritual plane
(0.5) = 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25
The deterministic universe (0.5) where everything is preordained (0.5)
and there is a spiritual plane (0.5) = 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.125
The deterministic universe (0.5) where everything is preordained up
until choice is demonstrated (0.5) = 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25
So adding these together gives us the odds of it being a dualistic view
of the universe at 62.5%, which means the odds of the monolistic view
of the universe are down to 37.5%.
You may notice that that the odds between a deterministic universe and
a indeterministic universe was 50/50, yet the history of science shows
that what we had previously needed randomness or a spiritual plane to
explain, can through science now be shown to be governed by
deterministic laws. The higher you weight the evidence of scientific
history, the higher you'll make the odds on it being a deterministic
universe. If you do this you'll see that the odds of it being a
dualistic view of the universe increase. In the example below, I favour
the evidence of scientific history, and make the percentage 60/40 in
favour of a deterministic universe.
The indeterministic universe (0.4) where there is a spiritual plane
(0.5) = 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.2
The deterministic universe (0.6) where everything is preordained (0.5)
and there is a spiritual plane (0.5) = 0.6 * 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.15
The deterministic universe (0.6) where everything is preordained up
until choice is demonstrated (0.5) = 0.6 * 0.5 = 0.3
So adding these together gives us the odds of it being a dualistic view
of the universe now at 65%, which means the odds of the monolistic view
of the universe are down to 35%. So we can see that the more weight you
place on the history of scientific evidence, the more likely there is a
spiritual plane.
The other variable that comes in is whether you believe you have a
choice. The higher you rate your belief that you have a choice, that
there is the 'I' that seems above physical laws, you'll notice that the
odds of it being a dualistic view of the universe it becomes. Let's say
the odds of us having choice over no choice is 60/40, though you can
make up your own odds here.
The indeterministic universe (0.4) where there is a spiritual plane
(0.5) = 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.2
The deterministic universe (0.6) where everything is preordained (0.4)
and there is a spiritual plane (0.5) = 0.6 * 0.4 * 0.5 = 0.12
The deterministic universe (0.6) where everything is preordained up
until choice is demonstrated (0.6) = 0.6 * 0.6 = 0.36
Adding these odds together we see that the odds of a dualistic universe
rising again to 68%, leaving the odds of a monolistic universe at 32%.
I'd be interested to see where the atheists think I've been unobjective
here.
[This is an edited version of something I wrote on alt.religion called
'I believe',
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion/browse_frm/thread/17f29f4588cfab86/997775f94cbbaa44?q=I+believe#997775f94cbbaa44
(It was a shame more atheists didn't join in to break my argument,
probably my fault for not posting it to alt.atheism) ]
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
19 Mar 2005 05:25:44 PM |
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So do you believe that you have no choice, and that it is just an
illusion.
Also how do you explain consciousness.
I was just making a probability tree, which takes into account any
scientific discoveries I have heard of. If there has been some
discovery that alters the probabilities that I have given, then just
let me know.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
18 Mar 2005 04:53:40 PM |
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On 18 Mar 2005 14:31:47 -0800, wrote:
Same to you. At least I was logical about what I said,
The problem being that logic based on false premises is worthless.
you seem to have
just resorted to:
"I'm not listening, I'm not listening, naaaaaaa...h"
No, I was pointing out that you had absolutely nothing to say, because
your assumptions were all completely unfounded.
I thought the atheists were supposed to be the objective, logical, if
somewhat sceptical smart ones. I don't believe because it hasn't been
proven.
Ok, not proven, but neither is your belief.
What belief were you referring to?
You have blind faith in
science, you don't even understand.
Science demonstrably works. There's no faith involved.
I'm sure even monkeys believe they
have a choice. But you're too smart to fall for that old trick huh?
Your easy to control, easy to manipulate because you're so smart.
WTF are you babbling about?
Duh? I don't have a choice. Ok if you say so. LOL!
Err, excuse me, but I thought you were taking issue at my statement
that QM implies non-determinism. Make up your mind.
Einstein was religious, guess you know more than him huh ?;)
And Einstein was never comfortable with QM. OK, now I *know* this is a
troll. Come on, 'fess up! Who are you really?
I'm not saying all religious people are smart, the majority follow like
sheep, and are manipulated accordingly, but at least they have soul.
So do I; you should hear me sing!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
18 Mar 2005 05:44:53 PM |
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Yes Einstein wasn't comfortable with QM (Quantum mechanics), because he
viewed our lack of our understanding to ignorance. Thus Bohm's Theory
(1952 or thereabouts) would have eased his mind.
You can check out some Einstein quotes on:
http://home.att.net/~quotations/einstein.html
Science points to a deterministic universe. Where it would be clear to
you that the question about whether there is a spiritual plane or not
is simply the answer to the question "Do I have a choice?".
You might have a good voice, but I'm not sure there's much soul in it.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
19 Mar 2005 01:23:46 AM |
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On 18 Mar 2005 15:44:53 -0800, wrote:
Yes Einstein wasn't comfortable with QM (Quantum mechanics), because he
viewed our lack of our understanding to ignorance.
Einstein was uncomfortable with the idea of QM being essentially
non-deterministic from his own personal perspective. What exactly you
might mean by "because he viewed our lack of our understanding to
ignorance" I have absolutely no idea; it simply doesn't scan.
Thus Bohm's Theory
(1952 or thereabouts) would have eased his mind.
You can check out some Einstein quotes on:
http://home.att.net/~quotations/einstein.html
Does it include the one where he specifically disavows belief in a
personal god? Or what the relevance of Einstein's personal beliefs
regarding spirituality might have to reality?
Science points to a deterministic universe.
Asserting it again doesn't make it so. Mainstream scientific opinion
is that QM indicates that you're wrong, and I see no good reason to
think otherwise.
Where it would be clear to
you that the question about whether there is a spiritual plane or not
is simply the answer to the question "Do I have a choice?".
What would it take to make it clear to you that you're tossing out a
bunch of nonsense?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
19 Mar 2005 05:20:43 PM |
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Asserting it again doesn't make it so. Mainstream scientific opinion
is that QM indicates that you're wrong, and I see no good reason to
think otherwise.
Check out:
http://www.fyma.ucl.ac.be/files/Turin.pdf
By Jean Bricmont
It explains why there is no scientific evidence that the world is
indeterministic (as indicated by QM), and mentions Bohm's Theory.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
20 Mar 2005 12:17:07 AM |
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On 19 Mar 2005 15:20:43 -0800, wrote:
Asserting it again doesn't make it so. Mainstream scientific opinion
is that QM indicates that you're wrong, and I see no good reason to
think otherwise.
Check out:
http://www.fyma.ucl.ac.be/files/Turin.pdf
By Jean Bricmont
It explains why there is no scientific evidence that the world is
indeterministic (as indicated by QM), and mentions Bohm's Theory.
The paper seems to be more philosophical than scientific in its
approach, and Bohm's Theory is no more convincing here than anywhere
else I've run across it. Nor does any of this have any relevance to
the existence or non-existence of some kind of nebulously defined
"spiritual plane".
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
18 Mar 2005 04:34:43 PM |
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On 18 Mar 2005 14:31:47 -0800, wrote:
Same to you. At least I was logical about what I said, you seem to have
just resorted to:
"I'm not listening, I'm not listening, naaaaaaa...h"
Stop lying.
I thought the atheists were supposed to be the objective, logical, if
somewhat sceptical smart ones. I don't believe because it hasn't been
proven.
Ok, not proven, but neither is your belief. You have blind faith in
science, you don't even understand. I'm sure even monkeys believe they
have a choice. But you're too smart to fall for that old trick huh?
Your easy to control, easy to manipulate because you're so smart.
What "belief", liar? The ones you invent for us as strawman opposites
of yours?
Duh? I don't have a choice. Ok if you say so. LOL!
Einstein was religious, guess you know more than him huh ?;)
Only in the fantasies of theists.
I'm not saying all religious people are smart, the majority follow like
sheep, and are manipulated accordingly, but at least they have soul.
Define "souil", question-begging moron.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A spiritual plane is objectively probable. |
18 Mar 2005 05:33:52 PM |
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I guess you mean soul. I answered it as best I could in the following
link:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion/browse_frm/thread/4ba779e755afc48d/dc3057aebb86f5e4?q=born+with+no+brain#dc3057aebb86f5e4
Do you have a funny outfit too?
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