| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"wcb" |
| Date: |
05 Aug 2006 08:27:47 AM |
| Object: |
AA God, free will and original sin. |
GOD, FREE WILL AND ORIGINAL SIN.
(The short version)
W.C. Barwell - 8-3-06
Some people claim man has free will and this
is necessary and good.
God supposedly created the garden of Eden
and created Adam and Eve there. Theologians
tell us that original sin came into the
world there when Eve was enticed to eat of
the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of God
and Evil.
If god allows original sin to exist this
impinges on our free will. It cause us to do evil,
to be perverse and sinful. So say the
theologians.
God is defined as all good, loving, merciful
and all powerful. A god that is all these
things would not allow original sin to
destroy our free will and cause many people
to be evil and damned.
Thus a god that is all good, all powerful
loving and merciful and allegedly did not
simply snap his omnipotent finger to make
original sin (A doubtful idea to begin with)
disappear cannot exist.
If you take the view man has no free will,
its still evil since having no free will
means god knew we were forced to do evil
by original sin. He could have eliminated
original sin and created original goodness
in its place with a snap of his omnipotent
fingers.
Since those who argue man has no free will
admit free will is of no value, being made
to do god rather than evil is all god's doing,
and all evil must be his responsibility.
Since god is defined as good, a god that allows
evil such as original sin cannot exist as that
god is evil instead, a contradiction in
assertions about the Christian god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
06 Aug 2006 02:41:21 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dbrkcac2489a0@corp.supernews.com...
GOD, FREE WILL AND ORIGINAL SIN.
(The short version)
W.C. Barwell - 8-3-06
Some people claim man has free will and this
is necessary and good.
But most people know that free will is problematic regardless of whether
they believe in a god or not.
God supposedly created the garden of Eden
and created Adam and Eve there.
Appeal to orthodox, literalism. Nearly all modern theologies view the bible
as...at best...allegorical.
Theologians
tell us that original sin came into the
world there when Eve was enticed to eat of
the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of God
and Evil.
No. Only orthodox literalist theologians would say that.
If god allows original sin to exist this
impinges on our free will.
And if no original sin exists, determinism impinges on our free will. This
is why a 'free will' argument can't disprove the existence of a god.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
05 Aug 2006 10:16:43 PM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
But most people know that free will is problematic regardless of whether
they believe in a god or not.
When it comes to god, most people don't know *****,
really.
Most Americans are know-nothings about this.
The are bible literalists and little more.
That OEC god class is impossible.
That god is impossible.
Why don't you just go away and stop embarressing
yourself with you ignorant irrelevancies?
Many religions preach free will, some do not.
Free will doctrines generate disproof of god.
The non-free will predestinarian religious
claims generate disproof of god.
Either way, I win.
Just go away and stop stalking me with your
aggressive ignorance.
You cannot reason. You cannot learn,
you are incapable of simple reason.
Why inflict it on the world at large?
-----------------
GOD, FREE WILL AND ORIGINAL SIN.
(The short version)
W.C. Barwell - 8-3-06
Some people claim man has free will and this
is necessary and good.
...........
Note Gandy. "SOME PEOPLE". The Roman Catholics,
Anglicans, and other free will denominations.
Now let us follow that claim to its logical end.
You can't do that, can you? Your inchoate,
chaotic ignorance cannot let you say, "Take
this dogma as it is and see where it logically leads".
Shut up, go away.
......
God supposedly created the garden of Eden
and created Adam and Eve there. Theologians
tell us that original sin came into the
world there when Eve was enticed to eat of
the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of God
and Evil.
If god allows original sin to exist this
impinges on our free will. It cause us to
do evil, to be perverse and sinful. So say
the theologians.
God is defined as all good, loving, merciful
and all powerful. A god that is all these
things would not allow original sin to
destroy our free will and cause many people
to be evil and damned.
Thus a god that is all good, all powerful
loving and merciful and allegedly did not
simply snap his omnipotent finger to make
original sin (A doubtful idea to begin with)
disappear cannot exist.
If you take the view man has no free will,
its still evil since having no free will
means god knew we were forced to do evil
by original sin. He could have eliminated
original sin and created original goodness
in its place with a snap of his omnipotent
fingers.
Since those who argue man has no free will
admit free will is of no value, being made
to do god rather than evil is all god's doing,
and all evil must be his responsibility.
Since god is defined as good, a god that allows
evil such as original sin cannot exist as that
god is evil instead, a contradiction in
assertions about the Christian god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
06 Aug 2006 11:13:32 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12ddc6jadcsue3f@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
But most people know that free will is problematic regardless of whether
they believe in a god or not.
When it comes to god, most people don't know *****,
really.
That's not a response, it's your typical dodge.
Most Americans are know-nothings about this.
Again, non responsive.
Your free will argument is garbage and you can't defend it.
Many religions preach free will, some do not.
Which means that your argument could only be specific and not general.
So much for your proof that a god cannot exist.
Free will doctrines generate disproof of god.
The non-free will predestinarian religious
claims generate disproof of god.
Prove it.
GOD, FREE WILL AND ORIGINAL SIN.
(The short version)
W.C. Barwell - 8-3-06
Some people claim man has free will and this
is necessary and good.
But most people know that free will is problematic regardless of whether
they believe in a god or not.
God supposedly created the garden of Eden
and created Adam and Eve there.
Appeal to orthodox, literalism. Nearly all modern theologies view the bible
as...at best...allegorical.
Theologians
tell us that original sin came into the
world there when Eve was enticed to eat of
the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of God
and Evil.
No. Only orthodox literalist theologians would say that.
If god allows original sin to exist this
impinges on our free will.
And if no original sin exists, determinism impinges on our free will. This
is why a 'free will' argument can't disprove the existence of a god.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
06 Aug 2006 01:01:31 AM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
That's not a response, it's your typical dodge.
You don't know *****.
Basically, I can deal wit god two ways.
Free will exists.
Free will does not exist.
Either way, I win.
Most people really don't know anything
about any of this
"Does man have free will according to teh bible?"
Ask and see.
Now you, as usual are stupid, wrong and
you are trying to make facts you don't
like go away by attacking me.
Again, if we take the claim free will exists (as
made dogmatic at the Council of Trent and thus
necessary belief in teh RCC on pain of being
pronounced anathema if you disagree), and we run
it out to its logical conclusion its a failed idea.
God can give us a good nature and nor causes
us problems with our free will than it causes
god's free will to be morally goood in nature.
YOU LOSE!
Free will, which is dogmatic in the RCC, Anglians
and more, does not work.
No matter how you ignorantly try to ignore this
fact and divert attention from this truth, it is true.
Go way you depressingly stupid little time waster.
Just shut the hell up and take your steady stream
of stupid irrelevacies away from here?
------------
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
07 Aug 2006 01:16:07 AM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12ddlrjsemjhdf0@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
That's not a response, it's your typical dodge.
You don't know *****.
And next to you, I look like Einstein. That should give you a clue,
Barwell.
Basically, I can deal wit god two ways.
Free will exists.
Free will does not exist.
Either way, I win.
Only because you assert that you win. Your arguments flop like cowpies.
Most people really don't know anything
about any of this
And you're apparently one of them.
"Does man have free will according to teh bible?"
Who cares? What's YOUR argument?
Now you, as usual are stupid, wrong and
you are trying to make facts you don't
like go away by attacking me.
I don't have to attack you, Barwell. Your arguments are easy enough to
attack all by themselves. I'm sad that you have to associate yourself with
them. But that's your problem, not mine.
Again, if we take the claim free will exists (as
made dogmatic at the Council of Trent and thus
necessary belief in teh RCC on pain of being
pronounced anathema if you disagree), and we run
it out to its logical conclusion its a failed idea.
Not by anything you've shown.
God can give us a good nature and nor causes
us problems with our free will than it causes
god's free will to be morally goood in nature.
And at this point, Barwell cannot even construct a coherent sentence let
alone a coherent argument.
Free will, which is dogmatic in the RCC, Anglians
and more, does not work.
And it doesn't work without god either, Barwell. What have you proven?
No matter how you ignorantly try to ignore this
fact and divert attention from this truth, it is true.
Yes, it is true that your arguments are a colossal failure. That's an
unavoidable truth at this point.
Go way you depressingly stupid little time waster.
Keep dreaming, Barwell.
Just shut the hell up and take your steady stream
of stupid irrelevacies away from here?
Or what?
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Non sequitur.
1. You haven't defined free will.
2. Even if man did not have free will, Romans 8:11 does not describe
anything at all resembling determinism, and it's doubtful that anything in
the Bible would describe all the possibilities that arise from determinism,
compatibilism, incompatibilism, philosophical libertarianism and all the
other subjects that arise in relation to a discussion of free will that
occur even without a god.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
Self contradictory statement. Man cannot possess the freedom necessary to
choose between good and evil PLUS be made incapable of choosing evil.
Your argument simply flops at this point.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
Your definitions don't interest me. What interests me is that you've only
proved that your argument doesn't work.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
Non sequitur because it assumes that God's idea of evil is also our idea of
evil. At this point you conveniently clip Calvin and Luther's admonition
that man cannot know and therefore cannot judge God's conceptions of right
and wrong.
Furthermore since nearly all modern theologians reject the literal truth of
the bible, original sin is out of the window.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
But since we don't know that's the case, the argument goes nowhere in any
event. The Logical Argument from Evil has already stated whatever truth
lies embedded in your garbage argument and done it much better than you
could even have done.
Another point is that you pretend that 'evil' is something palpable that
needs to be created in and of itself. It's far more likely that evil exists
due to the fact that choices ARE made and that some of those choices appear
as blatantly evil to those who have to experience the effect of those
choices.
You'd have a far better chance at an argument concerning natural evil rather
than moral evil. But in that case you would have to prove that any possible
god MUST have created reality *ex nihilo* Of course, you can't prove that,
so again, your argument goes nowhere.
Leave the attempts at proof to the theists, Barwell. None of this is going
anywhere other than into the enormous black hole of your ego.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
06 Aug 2006 10:49:05 AM |
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GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If he can and did not god is evil.
Contradiction. Moral evil exists, god cannot.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil. Some will
say that original sin is responsible, but an all
good, omnipotent god, God would know original sin
was a source of evil and thus would have simply
eliminated it from the beginning.
If god did not do that, he would then be responsible
for evil that was unnecessary and would be evil.
God is defined dogmatically as all good.
Contradiction.
Thus this god cannot thus exist.
Omnigenesis.
If god is omnipotent, or omniscient, or creates
the Universe to be explicitly determinate,
and god creates all, it is a fact that no free will
for us can exist. All that exists is created by god
to the smallest detail and free will is impossible
to the greatest impossibility imaginable.
Omnigenesis, creation of all which entails
the above, means no free will exists.
Thus god is responsible personally, and knowingly
for all evil. Since god is dogmatically defined
in Christianity and Islam as all good, being
responsible for all evil is a contradiction.
Free will for us is impossible
And this god is impossible.
If god creates all and does not care if we have
free will, and if he was good, he would makes us
all saved and good and moral evil would be unknown.
This god obviously does not exist.
Whether one tries to imagine god gave us free
will or not, either way god is impossible.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
07 Aug 2006 12:16:57 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12deo8tlndf644a@corp.supernews.com...
GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Examples
Yes: Atheists
No: Atheists
Yes. Agnostics
No. Agnostics
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil.
Non sequitur. God's goodness does not imply an ability to eradicate evil.
God's moral free will does not logically necessitate our free will. God's
moral free will does not imply an ability to give us free will.
Your argument fails.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
07 Aug 2006 01:45:51 AM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Examples
Yes: Atheists
No: Atheists
Yes. Agnostics
No. Agnostics
Utterly pointless.
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Romans 8-11 state that man has no free will, god
predestines all. But not all Christian sects follow
Romans, many claim man indeed does have free will.
Either man has free will or man does not have
free will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Each claim can be taken as a starting argument
and run to its logical conclusion to see if it
is a viable claim.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
It is a dogmatic claim fromCouncil of Trent
man has free will. It is a dogmatic claim
from Summa Theologica that god has free will.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
See Calvinism's 5 points for particulars.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. DEBUNKED |
08 Aug 2006 12:20:39 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dgcqat9b9v255@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Define it or shut up about it. Your argument is pointless without a
definition.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Examples
Yes: Atheists
No: Atheists
Yes. Agnostics
No. Agnostics
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil.
Non sequitur. God's goodness does not imply an ability to eradicate evil.
God's moral free will does not logically necessitate our free will. God's
moral free will does not imply an ability to give us free will.
Your argument fails.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. DEBUNKED |
07 Aug 2006 02:03:02 PM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
Define it or shut up about it. Your argument is pointless without a
definition.
Idiot, its defined rather explicitly, try Concil of Trent.
Google for it. I posted this crap several times.
You relentlessly stalk me but are so superficial and
stupid you can't remember crap when I post 4 it times in 2 days.
Don't rant at me because yu have a bad memory.
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. DEBUNKED |
08 Aug 2006 02:13:14 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dho0i2sgam543@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
Define it or shut up about it. Your argument is pointless without a
definition.
Idiot, its defined rather explicitly
Not by you.
GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Define it or shut up about it. Your argument is pointless without a
definition.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Examples
Yes: Atheists
No: Atheists
Yes. Agnostics
No. Agnostics
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil.
Non sequitur. God's goodness does not imply an ability to eradicate evil.
God's moral free will does not logically necessitate our free will. God's
moral free will does not imply an ability to give us free will.
Your argument fails.
.
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| User: "TANGLEHAIR" |
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| Title: Re: AA God, free will and original sin. |
07 Aug 2006 03:13:11 AM |
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To allow others the victory of such arguments, or any conflict, while
taking defeat for ourselves is sign of a superior intellect.
Especially on such subjects which revolve around abstract words and
ideals like God, freewill, democracy, communism, left and right. One
cannot point to a single referent that can perfectly define thse
concepts. Keeping friendship alive while regarding all with
impartiality is the goal. Why must we complicate matters with
confusing the "map for the territory?"
Gandalf Grey wrote:
"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12ddlrjsemjhdf0@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
That's not a response, it's your typical dodge.
You don't know *****.
And next to you, I look like Einstein. That should give you a clue,
Barwell.
Basically, I can deal wit god two ways.
Free will exists.
Free will does not exist.
Either way, I win.
Only because you assert that you win. Your arguments flop like cowpies.
Most people really don't know anything
about any of this
And you're apparently one of them.
"Does man have free will according to teh bible?"
Who cares? What's YOUR argument?
Now you, as usual are stupid, wrong and
you are trying to make facts you don't
like go away by attacking me.
I don't have to attack you, Barwell. Your arguments are easy enough to
attack all by themselves. I'm sad that you have to associate yourself with
them. But that's your problem, not mine.
Again, if we take the claim free will exists (as
made dogmatic at the Council of Trent and thus
necessary belief in teh RCC on pain of being
pronounced anathema if you disagree), and we run
it out to its logical conclusion its a failed idea.
Not by anything you've shown.
God can give us a good nature and nor causes
us problems with our free will than it causes
god's free will to be morally goood in nature.
And at this point, Barwell cannot even construct a coherent sentence let
alone a coherent argument.
Free will, which is dogmatic in the RCC, Anglians
and more, does not work.
And it doesn't work without god either, Barwell. What have you proven?
No matter how you ignorantly try to ignore this
fact and divert attention from this truth, it is true.
Yes, it is true that your arguments are a colossal failure. That's an
unavoidable truth at this point.
Go way you depressingly stupid little time waster.
Keep dreaming, Barwell.
Just shut the hell up and take your steady stream
of stupid irrelevacies away from here?
Or what?
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Non sequitur.
1. You haven't defined free will.
2. Even if man did not have free will, Romans 8:11 does not describe
anything at all resembling determinism, and it's doubtful that anything in
the Bible would describe all the possibilities that arise from determinism,
compatibilism, incompatibilism, philosophical libertarianism and all the
other subjects that arise in relation to a discussion of free will that
occur even without a god.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
Self contradictory statement. Man cannot possess the freedom necessary to
choose between good and evil PLUS be made incapable of choosing evil.
Your argument simply flops at this point.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
Your definitions don't interest me. What interests me is that you've only
proved that your argument doesn't work.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
Non sequitur because it assumes that God's idea of evil is also our idea of
evil. At this point you conveniently clip Calvin and Luther's admonition
that man cannot know and therefore cannot judge God's conceptions of right
and wrong.
Furthermore since nearly all modern theologians reject the literal truth of
the bible, original sin is out of the window.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
But since we don't know that's the case, the argument goes nowhere in any
event. The Logical Argument from Evil has already stated whatever truth
lies embedded in your garbage argument and done it much better than you
could even have done.
Another point is that you pretend that 'evil' is something palpable that
needs to be created in and of itself. It's far more likely that evil exists
due to the fact that choices ARE made and that some of those choices appear
as blatantly evil to those who have to experience the effect of those
choices.
You'd have a far better chance at an argument concerning natural evil rather
than moral evil. But in that case you would have to prove that any possible
god MUST have created reality *ex nihilo* Of course, you can't prove that,
so again, your argument goes nowhere.
Leave the attempts at proof to the theists, Barwell. None of this is going
anywhere other than into the enormous black hole of your ego.
.
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