Religions > Atheism > AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"wcb" |
| Date: |
05 Aug 2006 08:32:04 AM |
| Object: |
AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If he can and did not god is evil.
Contradiction. Moral evil exists, god cannot.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil. Some will
say that original sin is responsible, but an all
good, omnipotent god, God would know original sin
was a source of evil and thus would have simply
eliminated it from the beginning.
If god did not do that, he would then be responsible
for evil that was unnecessary and would be evil.
God is defined dogmatically as all good.
Contradiction.
Thus this god cannot thus exist.
Omnigenesis.
If god is omnipotent, or omniscient, or creates
the Universe to be explicitly determinate,
and god creates all, it is a fact that no free will
for us can exist. All that exists is created by god
to the smallest detail and free will is impossible
to the greatest impossibility imaginable.
Omnigenesis, creation of all which entails
the above, means no free will exists.
Thus god is responsible personally, and knowingly
for all evil. Since god is dogmatically defined
in Christianity and Islam as all good, being
responsible for all evil is a contradiction.
Free will for us is impossible
And this god is impossible.
If god creates all and does not care if we have
free will, and if he was good, he would makes us
all saved and good and moral evil would be unknown.
This god obviously does not exist.
Whether one tries to imagine god gave us free
will or not, either way god is impossible.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
06 Aug 2006 02:46:49 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dbrs1b25pu555@corp.supernews.com...
GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Examples
Yes: Atheists
No: Atheists
Yes. Agnostics
No. Agnostics
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil.
Non sequitur. God's goodness does not imply an ability to eradicate evil.
God's moral free will does not logically necessitate our free will. God's
moral free will does not imply an ability to give us free will.
Your argument fails.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
06 Aug 2006 02:07:56 AM |
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Useless moron.
you are like Duke, you have nothing worth
posting but you won't stop.
Free will? No free will?
Heads I win, tails I win.
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 12:16:54 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12ddpnoop844m80@corp.supernews.com...
Useless moron.
Poser.
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Non sequitur.
1. You haven't defined free will.
2. Even if man did not have free will, Romans 8:11 does not describe
anything at all resembling determinism, and it's doubtful that anything in
the Bible would describe all the possibilities that arise from determinism,
compatibilism, incompatibilism, philosophical libertarianism and all the
other subjects that arise in relation to a discussion of free will that
occur even without a god.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
Self contradictory statement. Man cannot possess the freedom necessary to
choose between good and evil PLUS be made incapable of choosing evil.
Your argument simply flops at this point.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
Your definitions don't interest me. What interests me is that you've only
proved that your argument doesn't work.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
Non sequitur because it assumes that God's idea of evil is also our idea of
evil. At this point you conveniently clip Calvin and Luther's admonition
that man cannot know and therefore cannot judge God's conceptions of right
and wrong.
Furthermore since nearly all modern theologians reject the literal truth of
the bible, original sin is out of the window.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
But since we don't know that's the case, the argument goes nowhere in any
event. The Logical Argument from Evil has already stated whatever truth
lies embedded in your garbage argument and done it much better than you
could even have done.
Another point is that you pretend that 'evil' is something palpable that
needs to be created in and of itself. It's far more likely that evil exists
due to the fact that choices ARE made and that some of those choices appear
as blatantly evil to those who have to experience the effect of those
choices.
You'd have a far better chance at an argument concerning natural evil rather
than moral evil. But in that case you would have to prove that any possible
god MUST have created reality *ex nihilo* Of course, you can't prove that,
so again, your argument goes nowhere.
Leave the attempts at proof to the theists, Barwell. None of this is going
anywhere other than into the enormous black hole of your ego.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 02:21:48 AM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Romans 8-11 state that man has no free will, god
predestines all. But not all Christian sects follow
Romans, many claim man indeed does have free will.
Either man has free will or man does not have
free will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Each claim can be taken as a starting argument
and run to its logical conclusion to see if it
is a viable claim.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
It is a dogmatic claim fromCouncil of Trent
man has free will. It is a dogmatic claim
from Summa Theologica that god has free will.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
See Calvinism's 5 points for particulars.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: Barwell DEBUNKED - God and free will, God and no free will |
08 Aug 2006 12:20:12 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dgetnsj80h6c9@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Romans 8-11 state that man has no free will, god
predestines all. But not all Christian sects follow
Romans, many claim man indeed does have free will.
Either man has free will or man does not have
free will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Each claim can be taken as a starting argument
and run to its logical conclusion to see if it
is a viable claim.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
It is a dogmatic claim fromCouncil of Trent
man has free will. It is a dogmatic claim
from Summa Theologica that god has free will.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
See Calvinism's 5 points for particulars.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Sniper" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 04:17:48 AM |
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wcb wrote:
Useless moron.
you are like Duke, you have nothing worth
posting but you won't stop.
Free will? No free will?
Heads I win, tails I win.
Heads you're an idiot. Tails you're an *****.
[unsnip]:
You're talking in circles. Free will would mean,
by definition, the ability of a person to choose
between doing good or doing evil. That negates a
nature where one can only choose good, not evil.
Your problem is that you're busting a gut trying
to prove it's impossible for any god to exist. A
much easier method is to require proof by theist
proponents that their assertions are believable.
Absent this, their arguments to convince you are
impotent and don't require the mental gymnastics
you're going through trying to contrive a proof.
Only a fundamentalist won't rest until he tries,
at least, to convince everybody he's right. Your
tireless posting of this same drivel, along with
your disdain for any atheist who is not a strong
atheist who also claims that any gods whatsoever
are impossible, show to _you_ to be a fundy too.
Fundamentalist's are ugly creatures, of whatever
persuasion. So what, you stayed up a few nights,
mentally masturbating until you thought you came
up with a proof that everyone else should accept
at face value because you wasted so much time on
it? It has the depth of a parking lot puddle. If
it was the stroke of genius you think it was, we
would be tripping over each other congratulating
you. That this hasn't happened should be a clue.
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
06 Aug 2006 11:32:01 AM |
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FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 12:15:45 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12deqpd87k1rh20@corp.supernews.com...
FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Either man has free will or man does not have free
will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Non sequitur.
1. You haven't defined free will.
2. Even if man did not have free will, Romans 8:11 does not describe
anything at all resembling determinism, and it's doubtful that anything in
the Bible would describe all the possibilities that arise from determinism,
compatibilism, incompatibilism, philosophical libertarianism and all the
other subjects that arise in relation to a discussion of free will that
occur even without a god.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
Self contradictory statement. Man cannot possess the freedom necessary to
choose between good and evil PLUS be made incapable of choosing evil.
Your argument simply flops at this point.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
Your definitions don't interest me. What interests me is that you've only
proved that your argument doesn't work.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
Non sequitur because it assumes that God's idea of evil is also our idea of
evil. At this point you conveniently clip Calvin and Luther's admonition
that man cannot know and therefore cannot judge God's conceptions of right
and wrong.
Furthermore since nearly all modern theologians reject the literal truth of
the bible, original sin is out of the window.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
But since we don't know that's the case, the argument goes nowhere in any
event. The Logical Argument from Evil has already stated whatever truth
lies embedded in your garbage argument and done it much better than you
could even have done.
Another point is that you pretend that 'evil' is something palpable that
needs to be created in and of itself. It's far more likely that evil exists
due to the fact that choices ARE made and that some of those choices appear
as blatantly evil to those who have to experience the effect of those
choices.
You'd have a far better chance at an argument concerning natural evil rather
than moral evil. But in that case you would have to prove that any possible
god MUST have created reality *ex nihilo* Of course, you can't prove that,
so again, your argument goes nowhere.
Leave the attempts at proof to the theists, Barwell. None of this is going
anywhere other than into the enormous black hole of your ego.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 02:22:34 AM |
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FREE WILL? NO FREE WILL? GOD IS IMPOSSIBLE
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell 8-4-06
Romans 8-11 state that man has no free will, god
predestines all. But not all Christian sects follow
Romans, many claim man indeed does have free will.
Either man has free will or man does not have
free will, and all is predetermined as per Romans 8 - 11.
Each claim can be taken as a starting argument
and run to its logical conclusion to see if it
is a viable claim.
FREE WILL - After Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas et al.
Roman Catholics, Anglicans et al
God could give man a god-like free will (good)
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
If god can and does not all evil is god's fault.
A god defined as all good yet resopnible for
all moral evil is a contradiction.
This god in a world of free will cannot exist.
It is a dogmatic claim fromCouncil of Trent
man has free will. It is a dogmatic claim
from Summa Theologica that god has free will.
NO FREE WILL - Calvinists, Lutherans
Calvinists and other predestinatrians, (following Romans)
claim all is predestined. Why are some men evil, and
damned? Because they are infected with original sin.
See Calvinism's 5 points for particulars.
Again, if god is all powerful and all good and hates
sin, he would have destroyed original sin on day one
since it generates evil and, which he hates. It cause
mankind to be damned, where as god wants all to be saved.
In a world here man has no free will, all is
predetermined, a god that is alledgedly all good
and hates evil cannot exist in a world of original
sin and evil. He is responsible for that evil
because he could have eliminated origial sin and
chose not to.
Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world where
man has free will and moral evil exists.
No Free will? A good god cannot exist in a world
where man has no free will and original sin is allowed
to create evil and damnation.
Either way, free will, no free will, a totally
good god cannot exist in a world where there is evil.
All evil is sole responsibility of god.
If god is alledgedly all good, but creates all
evil, we have a contradiction that disproves god.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: Barwell DEBUNKED - God and free will, God and no free will |
08 Aug 2006 12:20:15 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dgev5qqouloe2@corp.supernews.com...
GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Examples
Yes: Atheists
No: Atheists
Yes. Agnostics
No. Agnostics
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil.
Non sequitur. God's goodness does not imply an ability to eradicate evil.
God's moral free will does not logically necessitate our free will. God's
moral free will does not imply an ability to give us free will.
Your argument fails.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Barwell DEBUNKED - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 03:05:03 PM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Stop bullshitting us.
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: Barwell DEBUNKED - God and free will, God and no free will |
08 Aug 2006 03:16:57 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dhrkqblmpq6db@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Stop bullshitting us.
Ironic, considering you don't seem to be able to understand the difference
between your own ***** and logical impossibility.
GOD AND FREE WILL, GOD AND NO FREE WILL.
(Short version)
W.C. Barwell -8 -3-06
Either we have free will explicitly, or we
do not have free will.
Examples
Yes. Catholics, Anglicans.
No. Calvinists, Lutherans
Islam.
Examples
Yes: Atheists
No: Atheists
Yes. Agnostics
No. Agnostics
Free will - Yes
If yes, god has a good nature and a free will.
He could have given us a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature incapable of moral evil.
No he cannot. He cannot give BOTH god like free will AND a character
incapable of evil.
Free Will - No.
If we have no free will, than god is responsible
personally and totally for all evil.
Non sequitur. God's goodness does not imply an ability to eradicate evil.
God's moral free will does not logically necessitate our free will. God's
moral free will does not imply an ability to give us free will.
Your argument fails.
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| User: "Boggs" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 10:56:54 AM |
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Re the argument of Virgil, Sniper, Grandoaf, Free Lunch and others that
there might be a god of some sort, and this hypothesis (this 'might be'
theist conjecture) even a genius like Galileo could not prove false,
that is argument _ad ignorantiam_, logical fallacy for which theists
are famous, as Copi explains.
<quote> =E2=80=A8Famous in the history of science is the argument _ad
ignorantiam_ given in criticism of Galileo, when he showed leading
astronomers of his time the mountains and valleys on the moon that
could be seen through his telescope. Some scholars of that age,
absolutely convinced that the moon was a perfect sphere, as theology
and Aristotelian science had long taught, argued against Galileo that,
although we see what appear to be mountains and valleys, the moon is in
fact a perfect sphere, because all its apparent irregularities are
filled in by an invisible crystalline substance. And this hypothesis,
which saves the perfection of the heavenly bodies, Galileo could not
prove false!
Galileo, to expose the argument _ad ignorantium_, offered another of
the same kind as a caricature. Unable to prove the nonexistence of the
transparent crystal supposedly filling the valleys, he put forward the
equally probable hypothesis that there were, rearing up from the
invisible crystalline =C2=A0envelope on the moon, even greater mountain
peaks -- but made of crystal and thus invisible! And this hypothesis
his critics could not prove false. =E2=80=A8</quote> =E2=80=A8(Copi and Coh=
en,
_Introduction to Logic_, p. 117)
[In this case the term, 'hypothesis' means conjecture, a speculative,
'might be' imagining with no basis in fact.]
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
06 Aug 2006 11:35:04 AM |
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Boggs wrote:
Re the argument of Virgil, Sniper, Grandoaf, Free Lunch and others that
there might be a god of some sort, and this hypothesis (this 'might be'
theist conjecture) even a genius like Galileo could not prove false,
that is argument _ad ignorantiam_, logical fallacy for which theists
are famous, as Copi explains.
Give it a break.
The argument has shifted.
God can be disproven.
What these morons are doing is trying to pretend otherwise
and ignore the facts. The problem is, how do you make
dishonest morons into honest thinkers?
There are no gods possible. Strong Atheism
CAN disprove all gods.
Agnosticism is dead and so is theism.
GOD IS DISPROVEN
(Short version)
CLASSES OF GODS 8-1-06
Preliminary
God as a concept is not really a single concept
To deal with the idea of god it is necessary to
consider god by classes of gods. Broad classes
of god are fairy easy to disprove, and when a
class of gods is disproven all members of that
class with class characteristics are disproven.
This is economical and powerful.
Some gods map onto other classes of gods.
If a class is impossible, a class that maps
onto to that is also impossible. This makes
the concept of classes of gods a very powerful
tool for examining god ideas for viability.
Basically, there are not that many classes of gods,
about 25 or so depending how you count classes of
gods and god like ideas. Some of this is problematic,
is the concept of souls a god class idea or not?
At the bottom of the list of broadest classes of god
ideas, are classes of things hard to decide if they
are truly worth much in this regard.
Some classes of gods, myth cycles of gods can be
mapped to OEC gods or nature gods, or allegorical gods.
One can brek myth cycle gods down to smaller categories,
Celtic, Greek, Roman gods, henotheistic gods, soter gods,
etc, but that adds little to our task at hand and is
really not necessary
OEC or nature god mappings are all that really matter.
Once a class is disproven, all secondary and tertiary
claims and assertions about that class of gods are
disproven. All particular gods of that class and related
doctrines, theologies, and dogmas are eliminated.
THE MAJOR CLASSES OF GODS.
1. The greatest god imaginable
A. Supergods - Ashvara
The greatest god imaginable must be free of all limits
of logic. But then that god, perfect, all good, all
powerful has no limits to eliminating evil. Evil exists,
so this god cannot exist. Its self contradictory
2. Omni-Everything class class gods
Omnipotence, omnibenevolence, omniscience, creation
of all combine to create multiple overlapping
incompatibilities and contradictions that show
the class of OEC gods cannot exist.
3. Transcendent
4. Immanent
5. Maya
6. Idealism
These classes of gods map onto OEC class gods
and are thus shown to be impossible. An OEC god is
impossible whether its transcendent or immanent.
Each attribute simply adds further problems
to an OEC class god.
7. Deism
A. Maps to OEC
B. Maps to Pantheistism
Deism class gods thus fail.
8. Pantheism
A. Allegorical
B. Metaphysical
Allegorical is useless. There is no mechanism
for the Universe as a whole to be somehow
intelligent, and science can show all that
the Universe does is in fact a matter of physics.
9. Process theology/metaphysics god
This class of gods has failed. Designed as a
metaphysical rather than revealed god, process
theology from the beginning invented its own
physics and hung its god on that. This physics is
wrong and this god does not work with modern physics,
ruling it out as a viable class of gods.
10. Nature gods
A. Nature gods, numina etc
B. Tutelary gods, guardians of
places, sites, people.
Science has removed room for nature gods. Only science can
explain rain, crop fertility and natural phenomenon. The huge
swarms of nature gods of the past, cannot explain anything.
Nature gods are either reflections of real nature, in which
case the lack of real nature such as jet streams, techtonic
plate movements, atoms, chemistry principles, true biology
principles show the ancients were just guessing and not at
the important underlying forces of nature.
And of course the other aspect, revelation is absent here.
No god's came down to man and introduced themselves,
the gods of quarks, the goddess of the strong nuclear force,
or the goddess of gravity.
Obviously, then, nature gods are impossible and useless.
Related are tutelary gods, gods that offer protection to state,
cities, homes, tribes, families, children, women, personal
protection, et al, these are simply nonsense.
They never protected much, life was always cheap, whole states,
towns, cities, peoples were destroyed despite supposed protector
gods in the past. All the gods of Gaul did not protect them from
the Romans, the Roman gods did not protect them from barbarians.
Without modern medicine, vast numbers of people died alone
and in vast epidemics.
Tutelary gods and nature gods did not help even a little bit here.
For the vast numbers of people in the past, this was religion.
Science leaves no room for them.
11. Myth cycle gods.
A. Maps to OEC class
B. Maps to Nature god
C. Maps to allegorical god class
D. Maps to tutelary gods.
12. Allegorical gods, gods and goddesses that are
simple personifications of human nature or nature itself.
Hope, fear, love, and similar. Ate, goddess of violence,
Fama, goddess of rumor, Eris, goddess of discord, etc.
The stuff of poets, not really meant to be taken seriously.
Useless to explain the creation of this world, or anything
about it.
LESSOR THINGS.
Stuff so low down the food chain its not worth discussing,
spirits, fairies and nonsense.
Nothing that can take the place of god.
Thus we can start with the most powerful imaginable classes
of gods and work down to fairies and there simply is no
viable class of gods.
All viable particular gods are thus disproven.
God cannot exist.
(End)
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 12:15:51 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12deqv471ab6gbe@corp.supernews.com...
Boggs wrote:
Re the argument of Virgil, Sniper, Grandoaf, Free Lunch and others that
there might be a god of some sort, and this hypothesis (this 'might be'
theist conjecture) even a genius like Galileo could not prove false,
that is argument _ad ignorantiam_, logical fallacy for which theists
are famous, as Copi explains.
Give it a break.
The argument has shifted.
God can be disproven.
Not by you.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: AA Short version - God and free will, God and no free will |
07 Aug 2006 02:23:54 AM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12deqv471ab6gbe@corp.supernews.com...
Boggs wrote:
Re the argument of Virgil, Sniper, Grandoaf, Free Lunch and others that
there might be a god of some sort, and this hypothesis (this 'might be'
theist conjecture) even a genius like Galileo could not prove false,
that is argument _ad ignorantiam_, logical fallacy for which theists
are famous, as Copi explains.
Give it a break.
The argument has shifted.
God can be disproven.
Not by you.
I have done so.
All you can do is yap irrelevant crap.
--
"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent
men without religion, and religious men without
intelligence".
- Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri (973-1057; Syrian poet)
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: Barwell DEBUNKED - God and free will, God and no free will |
08 Aug 2006 12:20:09 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12dgf1lolqq6n11@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12deqv471ab6gbe@corp.supernews.com...
Boggs wrote:
Re the argument of Virgil, Sniper, Grandoaf, Free Lunch and others that
there might be a god of some sort, and this hypothesis (this 'might be'
theist conjecture) even a genius like Galileo could not prove false,
that is argument _ad ignorantiam_, logical fallacy for which theists
are famous, as Copi explains.
Give it a break.
The argument has shifted.
God can be disproven.
Not by you.
I have done so.
Another unsupported assertion. Your fatally flawed arguments have been
pointed out by quite a few and ignored by nearly everyone.
You've failed, Barwell.
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