aa- trip to Venice

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"jem"
Date:	11 Aug 2007 08:43:39 AM
Object:	aa- trip to Venice

I just spent 5 days in Venice, a really marvelous place.
After reading about history, church history, some theist and atheist
writings, and bits from this group… and so on over the decades, I knew
something about the accumulation of wealth and power by the catholic
church. I visited some churches that are very impressive, but left me
with mixed feelings. There really is nothing like seeing to get the
feeling. I was at once awestruck and also filled with disgust. The
fantastic art, architecture and artifacts can leave you speechless.
The immense wealth was built on the backs of poor people and by
courting the rich and powerful through the ages, not to mention the
retardation of human progress we are (or should be) all aware of. I
know that creative works, the paintings, sculptures and buildings are
all wonderful achievements and there has to be patrons and rallying
efforts to foster the arts, but what a waste when it is centered on
such a dangerous myth. Jesus mary jesus everywhere started to numb me,
it's everywhere.
Some other aspects bothered me too, like how some of the coffins had
likenesses of the deceased in what appeared to be crusader armor, and
these guys were glorified and sainted. I also wondered where these
christonuts got all fucked up on sex, when you see big titties hanging
out (statues/paintings!) and the holy bambino latched onto a nipple,
but they demand you have your shoulders covered in order to enter as a
showing of decency and I suppose respect for some damn thing. WTF?
Also, they keep things on display like leg bones, hands, and skulls of
their sainted heroes. They charge you to see the "extras". If that
isn't disrespecting the dead I don't know what is. They post signs
saying a church is a place for Christian prayer, not a museum or art
gallery, no photos or video, and it is an expression of the beauty of
{our[speak for yourself deludobrain]} faith in god. If they were
simply concerned with damage to the paint it would say no flash
photography or camera lights. I respected that request but many did
not. So much for promoting their faith, you can't take a picture so
you have to visit in person, too much geared to tourism I think. They
let you in several churches for free, and have boxes placed all over
so you can donate for this or that saint, like it makes much
difference which box you put money in for a specific mythic hero, a
few were for specific charity purposes. I also noticed every face of
clergy or nuns had really sour unhappy looking faces inside the
church, but if you see them on the street they were either
expressionless or pleasant. Maybe the stress of maintaining the lie at
work gets to them, who knows. Every single little neighborhood had a
church, many quite large and filled with precious art and relics, that
has to be expensive for the populace to support, lucky for them that
tourists keep the city alive. There were almost nobody in the pews, I
enjoyed that observation. I did have a little fun, I wore a religions
of the world tee-shirt into a few churches, on the "***** happens"
theme. I saw a couple offended faces but I ignored them, obviously
some can't joke about gawd. Incidentally, I believe the offended ones
were Americans, Italians really don't give a ***** what's written on
shirts, that's obvious if you look at what they wear.
I like the idea of no cars or even bicycles in the city, you walk or
take the water-bus, that's very cool but really beats your feet to
death, mine anyway. As always, the high tourist draw areas have their
dishonest segments raping the tourists, but also the vast majority of
Italians are really warm and beautiful people. It seemed like there
were four tourists for every local. Unique boats for every purpose. I
got many strange looks one day, I mounted a tripod on my backpack and
walked around with a camcorder over my head, I'm sure I will notice
more weird looks when I watch the videos. I'm glad I went, it's not
cheap but it is unique, a very rich history and worth a visit.
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	11 Aug 2007 04:45:02 PM

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:irerb3lnafgvh5qdrpdklfeolo7gi1cm3c@4ax.com...

I just spent 5 days in Venice, a really marvelous place.
After reading about history, church history, some theist and atheist
writings, and bits from this group. and so on over the decades, I knew
something about the accumulation of wealth and power by the catholic
church. I visited some churches that are very impressive, but left me
with mixed feelings. There really is nothing like seeing to get the
feeling. I was at once awestruck and also filled with disgust. The
fantastic art, architecture and artifacts can leave you speechless.
The immense wealth was built on the backs of poor people and by
courting the rich and powerful through the ages, not to mention the
retardation of human progress we are (or should be) all aware of. I
know that creative works, the paintings, sculptures and buildings are
all wonderful achievements and there has to be patrons and rallying
efforts to foster the arts, but what a waste when it is centered on
such a dangerous myth. Jesus mary jesus everywhere started to numb me,
it's everywhere.
Some other aspects bothered me too, like how some of the coffins had
likenesses of the deceased in what appeared to be crusader armor, and
these guys were glorified and sainted. I also wondered where these
christonuts got all fucked up on sex, when you see big titties hanging
out (statues/paintings!) and the holy bambino latched onto a nipple,
but they demand you have your shoulders covered in order to enter as a
showing of decency and I suppose respect for some damn thing. WTF?
Also, they keep things on display like leg bones, hands, and skulls of
their sainted heroes. They charge you to see the "extras". If that
isn't disrespecting the dead I don't know what is. They post signs
saying a church is a place for Christian prayer, not a museum or art
gallery, no photos or video, and it is an expression of the beauty of
{our[speak for yourself deludobrain]} faith in god. If they were
simply concerned with damage to the paint it would say no flash
photography or camera lights. I respected that request but many did
not. So much for promoting their faith, you can't take a picture so
you have to visit in person, too much geared to tourism I think. They
let you in several churches for free, and have boxes placed all over
so you can donate for this or that saint, like it makes much
difference which box you put money in for a specific mythic hero, a
few were for specific charity purposes. I also noticed every face of
clergy or nuns had really sour unhappy looking faces inside the
church, but if you see them on the street they were either
expressionless or pleasant. Maybe the stress of maintaining the lie at
work gets to them, who knows. Every single little neighborhood had a
church, many quite large and filled with precious art and relics, that
has to be expensive for the populace to support, lucky for them that
tourists keep the city alive. There were almost nobody in the pews, I
enjoyed that observation. I did have a little fun, I wore a religions
of the world tee-shirt into a few churches, on the "***** happens"
theme. I saw a couple offended faces but I ignored them, obviously
some can't joke about gawd. Incidentally, I believe the offended ones
were Americans, Italians really don't give a ***** what's written on
shirts, that's obvious if you look at what they wear.
I like the idea of no cars or even bicycles in the city, you walk or
take the water-bus, that's very cool but really beats your feet to
death, mine anyway. As always, the high tourist draw areas have their
dishonest segments raping the tourists, but also the vast majority of
Italians are really warm and beautiful people. It seemed like there
were four tourists for every local. Unique boats for every purpose. I
got many strange looks one day, I mounted a tripod on my backpack and
walked around with a camcorder over my head, I'm sure I will notice
more weird looks when I watch the videos. I'm glad I went, it's not
cheap but it is unique, a very rich history and worth a visit.

Sounds like you had a great time. I went there with my mom 31 years ago and
loved it :)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.

User: *"nemo"*
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	11 Aug 2007 06:50:50 PM

Robibnikoff wrote:

Sounds like you had a great time. I went there with my mom 31 years ago and
loved it :)

I was in Venice for a single day in 1974, when I was 15. It left a very
pleasant impression on my mind. I'd love to go back. But it looks like
it'll have to wait until I hit the lottery jackpot... :<
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	11 Aug 2007 07:43:24 PM

"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.diespam.com> wrote in message
news:13bsiqsjftj0qdd@corp.supernews.com...

Robibnikoff wrote:

Sounds like you had a great time. I went there with my mom 31 years ago
and loved it :)

I was in Venice for a single day in 1974, when I was 15. It left a very
pleasant impression on my mind. I'd love to go back. But it looks like
it'll have to wait until I hit the lottery jackpot... :<

LOL - and I was there when I was 15 in 1976. My mom and I went to Rome and
Florence as well, but Venice was my favorite :)
I wouldn't mind going back, but here are a couple of other places I'd like
to go to first (Scotland, Germany, maybe back to Ireland) :)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.

User: "les_on_usenet"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 04:09:34 AM

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:43:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.diespam.com> wrote in message
news:13bsiqsjftj0qdd@corp.supernews.com...

Robibnikoff wrote:

Sounds like you had a great time. I went there with my mom 31 years ago
and loved it :)

I was in Venice for a single day in 1974, when I was 15. It left a very
pleasant impression on my mind. I'd love to go back. But it looks like
it'll have to wait until I hit the lottery jackpot... :<

LOL - and I was there when I was 15 in 1976. My mom and I went to Rome and
Florence as well, but Venice was my favorite :)

I wouldn't mind going back, but here are a couple of other places I'd like
to go to first (Scotland, Germany, maybe back to Ireland) :)

I love Italy and have been to Venice a few times. I very doubt I would
be able to spend a day exploring the city now as I used to when
younger as age is starting to catch up.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 04:35:00 AM

"les_on_usenet" <delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:01jtb3tfuf54f7f5b64a89l8guv535qipg@4ax.com...

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:43:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.diespam.com> wrote in message
news:13bsiqsjftj0qdd@corp.supernews.com...

Robibnikoff wrote:

Sounds like you had a great time. I went there with my mom 31 years
ago
and loved it :)

I was in Venice for a single day in 1974, when I was 15. It left a very
pleasant impression on my mind. I'd love to go back. But it looks like
it'll have to wait until I hit the lottery jackpot... :<

LOL - and I was there when I was 15 in 1976. My mom and I went to Rome and
Florence as well, but Venice was my favorite :)

I wouldn't mind going back, but here are a couple of other places I'd like
to go to first (Scotland, Germany, maybe back to Ireland) :)

I love Italy and have been to Venice a few times. I very doubt I would
be able to spend a day exploring the city now as I used to when
younger as age is starting to catch up.

Well, I know I definitely wouldn't spend as much time in art museums, that's
for sure! I really do appreciate it now, but at the time I was bored to
tears as my mom would go on and on about the brush strokes used, kind of
paint, etc. That's what I get for going to Italy with a woman with a
masters degree in art ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.

User: "jem"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	13 Aug 2007 01:24:01 PM

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:09:34 +0100, les_on_usenet
<delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:43:24 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"*nemo*" <nemo0037@earthlink.diespam.com> wrote in message
news:13bsiqsjftj0qdd@corp.supernews.com...

Robibnikoff wrote:

Sounds like you had a great time. I went there with my mom 31 years ago
and loved it :)

I was in Venice for a single day in 1974, when I was 15. It left a very
pleasant impression on my mind. I'd love to go back. But it looks like
it'll have to wait until I hit the lottery jackpot... :<

LOL - and I was there when I was 15 in 1976. My mom and I went to Rome and
Florence as well, but Venice was my favorite :)

I wouldn't mind going back, but here are a couple of other places I'd like
to go to first (Scotland, Germany, maybe back to Ireland) :)

I love Italy and have been to Venice a few times. I very doubt I would
be able to spend a day exploring the city now as I used to when
younger as age is starting to catch up.

Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County

I know what you mean Les, my feet were killing me after the first day.
That's new for me, it never used to happen just because I walked or
even ran or snowshoed or whatever, but man- Venice walking kicked my
*****! I put my feet up for a day and a half when I got back.
I guess as long as age is just catching up and not overtaking us,
we'll find a way to have some fun.
It takes me all day to do what I used to be able to do all day.....
;-}
.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	11 Aug 2007 09:47:08 AM

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:irerb3lnafgvh5qdrpdklfeolo7gi1cm3c@4ax.com...

'Jem' is also disgusted by the system he lives in, works in and that in
the end gives him food at the end of the day. IF 'jem' wasn't a narrowminded
atheists, he would see no difference between church and the system he lives
in. In fact, if he was an openminded human being, he would see no difference
between church building all those buildings on the backs of the poor, and
this system building all those 'magnificent' little things such as aeroplanes,
engines, cell phones, cars, TVs, computers etc etc.
Which, in the end, a typical atheist is calling 'an endless progress'.
'Jem' word of advice; this world, this 'civilisation' we live in, is also based
on a myth, and that myth ain't about Jesus.
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	11 Aug 2007 10:32:05 AM

"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f9kjd4$ugl$1@aioe.org...

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:irerb3lnafgvh5qdrpdklfeolo7gi1cm3c@4ax.com...

'Jem' is also disgusted by the system he lives in, works in and that in
the end gives him food at the end of the day. IF 'jem' wasn't a
narrowminded
atheists, he would see no difference between church and the system he
lives
in. In fact, if he was an openminded human being, he would see no
difference
between church building all those buildings on the backs of the poor, and
this system building all those 'magnificent' little things such as
aeroplanes,
engines, cell phones, cars, TVs, computers etc etc.

Which, in the end, a typical atheist is calling 'an endless progress'.

'Jem' word of advice; this world, this 'civilisation' we live in, is also
based
on a myth, and that myth ain't about Jesus.

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 09:05:59 AM

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:rIOdnQrVp-vtSyDbnZ2dnUVZ_s6mnZ2d@io.com...

"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f9kjd4$ugl$1@aioe.org...

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:irerb3lnafgvh5qdrpdklfeolo7gi1cm3c@4ax.com...

'Jem' is also disgusted by the system he lives in, works in and that in
the end gives him food at the end of the day. IF 'jem' wasn't a narrowminded
atheists, he would see no difference between church and the system he lives
in. In fact, if he was an openminded human being, he would see no difference
between church building all those buildings on the backs of the poor, and
this system building all those 'magnificent' little things such as aeroplanes,
engines, cell phones, cars, TVs, computers etc etc.

Which, in the end, a typical atheist is calling 'an endless progress'.

'Jem' word of advice; this world, this 'civilisation' we live in, is also based
on a myth, and that myth ain't about Jesus.

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

I am living in a cave. It is called an apartment. But, if I went to a real
cave, how the hell would I know what is wrong with society and what
is not? For me, an escape would be a sign of weakness. So, for now, I
am staying here, among you, the 'civilized' ones.
.

User: "Free Lunch"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 09:32:06 AM

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:05:59 +0200, in alt.atheism
"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in <f9n5db$s9n$1@aioe.org>:

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:rIOdnQrVp-vtSyDbnZ2dnUVZ_s6mnZ2d@io.com...

"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f9kjd4$ugl$1@aioe.org...

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:irerb3lnafgvh5qdrpdklfeolo7gi1cm3c@4ax.com...

'Jem' is also disgusted by the system he lives in, works in and that in
the end gives him food at the end of the day. IF 'jem' wasn't a narrowminded
atheists, he would see no difference between church and the system he lives
in. In fact, if he was an openminded human being, he would see no difference
between church building all those buildings on the backs of the poor, and
this system building all those 'magnificent' little things such as aeroplanes,
engines, cell phones, cars, TVs, computers etc etc.

Which, in the end, a typical atheist is calling 'an endless progress'.

'Jem' word of advice; this world, this 'civilisation' we live in, is also based
on a myth, and that myth ain't about Jesus.

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

Since the United States is controlled by people who brandish their
religiosity like a weapon and cause problems because of it, don't you
think that the way some people use religion is a major part of the
problems this country faces?
.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 10:06:27 AM

"Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message news:tc6ub35mkp5uv6602hbqgrpov88ob1jgf1@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:05:59 +0200, in alt.atheism
"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in <f9n5db$s9n$1@aioe.org>:

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:rIOdnQrVp-vtSyDbnZ2dnUVZ_s6mnZ2d@io.com...

"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f9kjd4$ugl$1@aioe.org...

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:irerb3lnafgvh5qdrpdklfeolo7gi1cm3c@4ax.com...

'Jem' is also disgusted by the system he lives in, works in and that in
the end gives him food at the end of the day. IF 'jem' wasn't a narrowminded
atheists, he would see no difference between church and the system he lives
in. In fact, if he was an openminded human being, he would see no difference
between church building all those buildings on the backs of the poor, and
this system building all those 'magnificent' little things such as aeroplanes,
engines, cell phones, cars, TVs, computers etc etc.

Which, in the end, a typical atheist is calling 'an endless progress'.

'Jem' word of advice; this world, this 'civilisation' we live in, is also based
on a myth, and that myth ain't about Jesus.

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

So, US is like... the whole planet? How typical of you americans. If you
are the most powerful nation in the world, well geezlouise, that means that
United States IS the whole planet. What applies to US, it MUST apply
for the rest of the world.
Thank you for the evidence of how much you americans are brainwashed.
And, as far as I know, US was not always run by the fundamental christians.
Now it is, but the agendas of the United States are the same. The methods
are the same. So, yet again, we see how american people are trying to blame
Bush for all the ***** United States have done in the past. And it just shows
how brainwashed you guys are, and how blind you are.
The way your country operates has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING to do with
fundamental christians or religion. Your country is a bully. Alwasy has been, and
always will be. Until you, the american people, wake the ***** up. And then
by doint that, wake up the people of UK, France, Germany and the rest of the
countries that act one way, and do the opposite.
In way, Bush is a scapegoat for the rest of the world. And you should know that
the rest of the world is acting the same way US has been acting for the last 100
years.
So, go ahead. Blame it all on the Bush, and make way for other Bushes out there.
Make other scumbag politicians, economists, professionals, managers, CEOs look
better by blaming stupid GWB for everything.
People. No wonder God abandoned us. We are uncapable of seeing what's right
in front of our eyes, and somehow we expect Him to help us. Even atheists expect
God to help us, 'if' He exists.
.

User: "jem"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 01:51:04 PM

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

People. No wonder God abandoned us. We are uncapable of seeing what's right
in front of our eyes, and somehow we expect Him to help us. Even atheists expect
God to help us, 'if' He exists.

You are a deist, yes?
By definition, it's impossible for an atheist to expect god's help. If
one does expect help or intervention from god, they are something
other than atheist.
But, you may just be pushing buttons eh?
.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 04:14:49 PM

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:eclub3h9ac3pess0qhl2ltp327vs7p2b35@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

People. No wonder God abandoned us. We are uncapable of seeing what's right
in front of our eyes, and somehow we expect Him to help us. Even atheists expect
God to help us, 'if' He exists.

You are a deist, yes?

By definition, it's impossible for an atheist to expect god's help. If
one does expect help or intervention from god, they are something
other than atheist.

But, you may just be pushing buttons eh?

Nope, not pushing buttons. I thought that you guys, atheists, are the ones
pushing the buttons when you are 'confronting' theists with silly ***** such as:
'Well if God is omnipotent, why doesn't He stop poverty, wars, crime etc etc?'
So, either you, atheists, are acting like hypocrites, OR you actually do expect
God to stop poverty and wars and crime etc etc.
So, please, 'jem', don't.
.

User: "jem"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 07:22:31 PM

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:14:49 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:eclub3h9ac3pess0qhl2ltp327vs7p2b35@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

People. No wonder God abandoned us. We are uncapable of seeing what's right
in front of our eyes, and somehow we expect Him to help us. Even atheists expect
God to help us, 'if' He exists.

You are a deist, yes?

By definition, it's impossible for an atheist to expect god's help. If
one does expect help or intervention from god, they are something
other than atheist.

But, you may just be pushing buttons eh?

And the claim that god is omnipotent is not silly *****? The claim that
the bible is accurate or inerrant is not silly *****? The claims of
miracles is not silly *****? Theists have cornered the market in silly
*****.

So, either you, atheists, are acting like hypocrites, OR you actually do expect
God to stop poverty and wars and crime etc etc.

Is there a "c" choice?

So, please, 'jem', don't.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	13 Aug 2007 12:19:16 PM

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:pr8vb3d9i4g1qbtotvlqnqdl1g6jdn3nl1@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:14:49 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:eclub3h9ac3pess0qhl2ltp327vs7p2b35@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

People. No wonder God abandoned us. We are uncapable of seeing what's right
in front of our eyes, and somehow we expect Him to help us. Even atheists expect
God to help us, 'if' He exists.

You are a deist, yes?

By definition, it's impossible for an atheist to expect god's help. If
one does expect help or intervention from god, they are something
other than atheist.

But, you may just be pushing buttons eh?

Well, atheists are getting there as well. Somewhat differently, but they are rapidly
getting there.
So, what's your point, 'jem'?

So, either you, atheists, are acting like hypocrites, OR you actually do expect
God to stop poverty and wars and crime etc etc.

Is there a "c" choice?

The world is your oyster, 'jem'. 'You can do what you want to do, you can
be free'.
Now, stop breathing for a minute or two.
Capisci?

So, please, 'jem', don't.

User: "Free Lunch"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 08:26:31 PM

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:14:49 +0200, in alt.atheism
"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in <f9o17u$ui3$10@aioe.org>:

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:eclub3h9ac3pess0qhl2ltp327vs7p2b35@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

People. No wonder God abandoned us. We are uncapable of seeing what's right
in front of our eyes, and somehow we expect Him to help us. Even atheists expect
God to help us, 'if' He exists.

You are a deist, yes?

By definition, it's impossible for an atheist to expect god's help. If
one does expect help or intervention from god, they are something
other than atheist.

But, you may just be pushing buttons eh?

Nope, not pushing buttons. I thought that you guys, atheists, are the ones
pushing the buttons when you are 'confronting' theists with silly ***** such as:

'Well if God is omnipotent, why doesn't He stop poverty, wars, crime etc etc?'

So, either you, atheists, are acting like hypocrites, OR you actually do expect
God to stop poverty and wars and crime etc etc.

No, logic has slipped from your grasp. Atheists are merely asking
believers why the attributes that the believers themselves attribute to
god don't result in outcomes that are consistent with those attributes.
They ask the believers why they believe if the stories that the
believers tell are not consistent with reality.

So, please, 'jem', don't.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	13 Aug 2007 12:28:50 PM

"Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message news:qkcvb3tsojongb007vhghpac0m15dkr24f@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:14:49 +0200, in alt.atheism
"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in <f9o17u$ui3$10@aioe.org>:

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:eclub3h9ac3pess0qhl2ltp327vs7p2b35@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

People. No wonder God abandoned us. We are uncapable of seeing what's right
in front of our eyes, and somehow we expect Him to help us. Even atheists expect
God to help us, 'if' He exists.

You are a deist, yes?

By definition, it's impossible for an atheist to expect god's help. If
one does expect help or intervention from god, they are something
other than atheist.

But, you may just be pushing buttons eh?

Nope, not pushing buttons. I thought that you guys, atheists, are the ones
pushing the buttons when you are 'confronting' theists with silly ***** such as:

'Well if God is omnipotent, why doesn't He stop poverty, wars, crime etc etc?'

So, either you, atheists, are acting like hypocrites, OR you actually do expect
God to stop poverty and wars and crime etc etc.

Well, there must be a reason for it.
And, if you ask me, I find that inconsistency not as surprising as you are, atheist.

They ask the believers why they believe if the stories that the
believers tell are not consistent with reality.

Well, if yall atheists are so 'intelligent', why don't you, along with your
'Gods', scientists, do a little research and go find if there actually is God or not.
Join your hand and efforts, and just go fucking look. Do a research. Don't
just sit on yer lazy 'civilized' asses, 'thinking' about it. Do some hard scientific
work.
Why is that such a big deal? Why bother with what theists are saying?
Like you really do give a flying ***** what theists are saying. Right?
Yall are blabbering about 'logic' and 'intelligence' and whatnot. Well then,
use your 'logic' and your 'intelligence', combine it with science and some
research, and come back with some hard evidence.
Your atheistic dicking around with theists are not yielding any results. Yall are
acting like silly little stubborn bitches, and that, in the end, makes you NO
different that theists.
Well, then. Get your pen and paper, atheist, and go look. I mean, if you are,
as an atheist, a priori more 'intelligent' and 'logical' than I am. Or any other theist
out there.
Btw, I know what you are going to find. You are going to find a disappointment.
And you beliefs won't be as strong as they were before, atheist.
THAT I can guarantee you.

So, please, 'jem', don't.

User: "jem"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 02:08:33 PM

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

Could not the unwillingness to escape also be considered a sign of
tacit approval?
Where would you go anyway?

It appears to me that he didn't say or imply the US is the whole
planet, he implied religiously bent people are a major problem for the
USA.
You inserted an implication that is not really in the text.
I am willing to say that what the USA does has a big effect on the
rest of the world, disregarding right or wrong, that's an apparent
fact, and maybe that is what pisses you off the most?
Religion can be a big problem outside the USA, that much is also
obvious.
So who will be the big problem next? China? EU?
My guess is China.....
Where are you anyway?
.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 04:20:50 PM

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:dqlub3t0lap6ci54et5390isecnqt74uud@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

Could not the unwillingness to escape also be considered a sign of
tacit approval?

No. Because I will have the balls, unlike you, to spit in the face of the
'society' and 'civilisation'. And will criticise it, no doubt. UNLIKE you.
Who will criticise sie evol church, but will not criticise the 'society'.
When the fact is that both society and sie evol church are acting in almost
same manner. Lies, deceit, manipulation etc etc.

Where would you go anyway?

Why should I go anywhere? Just because I am, indirectly, criticising you, 'jem',
I should go living in a cave? Why? To prove my point, or in order to make you
feel better about yourself, huh?

It appears to me that he didn't say or imply the US is the whole
planet, he implied religiously bent people are a major problem for the
USA.

You didn't get my point, 'jem'.

You inserted an implication that is not really in the text.

Implication that seems to be true. Not only seems to be, but is true.

I am willing to say that what the USA does has a big effect on the
rest of the world, disregarding right or wrong, that's an apparent
fact, and maybe that is what pisses you off the most?

OMG, 'jem'. See? You have the nerve to say that? Like, I, a nonamerican,
am somehow 'jealous' of you and your country?
DUDE! You have just proved my fucking point, 'jem'!!

Religion can be a big problem outside the USA, that much is also
obvious.

Religion is not a problem. PEOPLE are the problem, my dear atheist.

So who will be the big problem next? China? EU?
My guess is China.....

China is not a problem.

Where are you anyway?

Europe. American people's motherland(s).
.

User: "jem"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	12 Aug 2007 07:44:22 PM

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:20:50 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:dqlub3t0lap6ci54et5390isecnqt74uud@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

Could not the unwillingness to escape also be considered a sign of
tacit approval?

So big bad brave guy, tell me what you are actually doing that is
spitting in the face of society, besides ranting and raving at
atheists? Just because I did not criticise "society" does not mean I
have no criticism of it, I merely commented on something else.

Where would you go anyway?

Why should I go anywhere? Just because I am, indirectly, criticising you, 'jem',
I should go living in a cave? Why? To prove my point, or in order to make you
feel better about yourself, huh?

You are determined to be an *****, I hope that really solves all the
hypocrisy, manipulation, and lies in your world. I was only asking a
question, based on you saying "for now" which implies maybe you were
thinking of "escaping" somewhere later. You leaving or staying
wherever the hell you are makes no difference to me, I don't give a
damn what you do, I don't care if you directly or indirectly criticise
me, vitriol is natural to you.

It appears to me that he didn't say or imply the US is the whole
planet, he implied religiously bent people are a major problem for the
USA.

You didn't get my point, 'jem'.

ya, probably not!

You inserted an implication that is not really in the text.

Implication that seems to be true. Not only seems to be, but is true.

I am willing to say that what the USA does has a big effect on the
rest of the world, disregarding right or wrong, that's an apparent
fact, and maybe that is what pisses you off the most?

OMG, 'jem'. See? You have the nerve to say that? Like, I, a nonamerican,
am somehow 'jealous' of you and your country?

DUDE! You have just proved my fucking point, 'jem'!!

Yes, I have the nerve to say that the USA has a significant impact
outside it's borders. If you don't believe that, you really are an
idiot. I didn't say it was good or bad, just that it has an effect. So
you are in Europe and you are unaware of American influence on the
world stage. You are the one that mentioned jealousy, all I asked is
if it pissed you off, apparently it does.
You are sure I'm American huh?

Religion can be a big problem outside the USA, that much is also
obvious.

Religion is not a problem. PEOPLE are the problem, my dear atheist.

And the people that can deserve an honorable mention in the problem
department are religious people. They can do good, and they can *****
things up real good.

So who will be the big problem next? China? EU?
My guess is China.....

China is not a problem.

Not yet. They've got the momentum in their favor, and the USA is
losing ground on just about everything but military these days, so it
seems.

Where are you anyway?

Europe. American people's motherland(s).

SEIG!
.

User: "de_menezes"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	14 Aug 2007 03:07:14 PM

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:d39vb3l88e19i0iuhbecb8v91rki8nnlpj@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:20:50 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:dqlub3t0lap6ci54et5390isecnqt74uud@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

Could not the unwillingness to escape also be considered a sign of
tacit approval?

So big bad brave guy, tell me what you are actually doing that is
spitting in the face of society, besides ranting and raving at
atheists?

Well, I am doing some superduper social experiments. I am not afraid of
telling the truth (and the truth is not something mystical, or uncomprehending),
so I am telling it. As much as I, as a human being, can. I tell, and then I wait
for reactions. And then I study those reactions. From people around me.
And what have I found? Fear, lies and hypocrisy. Not a single human being
has the guts to talk about the world we are living in. Why? Fear. They
are too scared to think about the world we are living in. And, in the end, they
don't care. Just a bunch of little slaves to their selfish genes. Or, as Uncle *****
would have called it; slaves to the 'natural'.
So, I don't have to go out in the streets, and protest, or whatnot. I can spit
in the face of the society from right here. Where I am at. And, funny enough,
I don't need any diploma or any special skills. All one needs is some empathy,
understanding and something between ears, that is not earwax.
Why bother with politicians, economists, governments etc etc? They are not
important.
Just because I did not criticise "society" does not mean I

have no criticism of it, I merely commented on something else.

Well, I wasn't criticising only you, 'jem', I was merely making a conclusion
on how atheists are oh so 'noble' and 'just' when it comes to what sie evol
church is doing and has done. But, when you ask those same atheists about
society, civilization or Godforbid, the system... 'just' and 'noble' vanish. Puf!
Just like that!
So, I am wondering; are atheists just another group of people parroting about
their opponents,acting as something they are not and talking how they are upset
about some things they don't like, OR... are atheist genuinly concerned, and
worried about ANY kind of injustice? Crime? Lies? Deceit?
So far, all I have seen (and that's just me), is yet another group of people,
being nothing more but a bunch of hypocrites, that only survive and depend
on what church is doing and how the church is acting.
NOTHING more. So, no. Atheists are NOT genuinly concerned about injustice.
They are more concerned in narrowing down the infulence of sie evol church,
religion, call it whatever you want, 'jem'.
In the end, that makes you NO different than theists and the oh zo evol church.
In fact, when I see an atheist, I see just another hypocrite and a liar. Just another theist.
Willing to lie in order to spread and strenghten his or hers beliefs. Nothing more.

Where would you go anyway?

Why should I go anywhere? Just because I am, indirectly, criticising you, 'jem',
I should go living in a cave? Why? To prove my point, or in order to make you
feel better about yourself, huh?

You are determined to be an *****, I hope that really solves all the
hypocrisy, manipulation, and lies in your world.

Why am I an *****? Because, I have beaten you in this little 'game' of ours?
Come on, dude, grow a spine. Me understanding you, does not make me an
*****. Capisci?
I was only asking a

question, based on you saying "for now" which implies maybe you were
thinking of "escaping" somewhere later. You leaving or staying
wherever the hell you are makes no difference to me, I don't give a
damn what you do, I don't care if you directly or indirectly criticise
me, vitriol is natural to you.

Oh, my bad. My apologies. 'For now' got you confused. Sorry, my bad.

It appears to me that he didn't say or imply the US is the whole
planet, he implied religiously bent people are a major problem for the
USA.

You didn't get my point, 'jem'.

ya, probably not!

Well then, what are you doing here?

You inserted an implication that is not really in the text.

Implication that seems to be true. Not only seems to be, but is true.

I am willing to say that what the USA does has a big effect on the
rest of the world, disregarding right or wrong, that's an apparent
fact, and maybe that is what pisses you off the most?

OMG, 'jem'. See? You have the nerve to say that? Like, I, a nonamerican,
am somehow 'jealous' of you and your country?

DUDE! You have just proved my fucking point, 'jem'!!

Yes, I have the nerve to say that the USA has a significant impact
outside it's borders. If you don't believe that, you really are an
idiot.

I believe that, because you appear to be somewhat intelligent, 'jem'.
I didn't say it was good or bad, just that it has an effect. So

you are in Europe and you are unaware of American influence on the
world stage. You are the one that mentioned jealousy, all I asked is
if it pissed you off, apparently it does.

Cunning little ***** you are, right 'jem'? NHF, but hahahaha.
Where shall I start, hmmm...

I didn't say it was good or bad, just that it has an effect.

It is way past a mere 'effect', 'jem'. I hope you understand that.

So
you are in Europe and you are unaware of American influence on the
world stage.

Yeah, 'jem'. I am a little 'stupid' european, and I don't know nor do I see
how american way of life and the american foreign policy is affecting the
rest of the world. I guess I should become a typical, ordinary american
(regardless of what his or hers beliefs are, and his or hers political preferences
are) 'proud' to be an american, in order to 'understand' how is american
way of life and american foreign policy affecting the rest of the world.
If I were a typical american, I'd be oblivious to evil. Brainwashed from
birth. And would die in ignorance. Sad fact(s).

You are sure I'm American huh?

Nope, but you well could be.
You are the one that mentioned jealousy, all I asked is

if it pissed you off, apparently it does.

When I said that you are a cunning little *****, 'jem', this is what I was
reffering to. How the ***** can you make a conclusion like that? How
the ***** can you think that it bothers me that USA has an enormous
effect on the rest of the world? I don't give a ***** about the effect(s).
What I am bothered is the way those effects are being done. And as I
recall, you were the one implying that I am somehow pissed of because,
'disregarding right or wrong', USA has an enormous effect on the rest of the
world.
Well, I do NOT disregard right or wrong.
Capisci?

Religion can be a big problem outside the USA, that much is also
obvious.

Religion is not a problem. PEOPLE are the problem, my dear atheist.

And the people that can deserve an honorable mention in the problem
department are religious people. They can do good, and they can *****
things up real good.

Same goes for atheists. But somehow atheists are immune to those problems.
Right? Because, atheists are 'intelligent' and 'logical' and 'educated', right?
Well, as far as I can see... no book can make you, atheists, escape the
human stupidity. I hope you understand that.

So who will be the big problem next? China? EU?
My guess is China.....

China is not a problem.

Not yet. They've got the momentum in their favor, and the USA is
losing ground on just about everything but military these days, so it
seems.

China never has and it never will be a problem.

Where are you anyway?

Europe. American people's motherland(s).

SEIG!

Well, if you are 'sieging' to Europe, you are heading in the wrong
direction. Sieg at the North American continent. After all, USA is
all Adolf Hitler could have wished for.
.

User: "jem"
Title: Re: aa- trip to Venice	15 Aug 2007 05:44:02 PM

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:07:14 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:
fair warning- this post is long.

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:d39vb3l88e19i0iuhbecb8v91rki8nnlpj@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:20:50 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

"jem" <A0054883@airmail.net> wrote in message news:dqlub3t0lap6ci54et5390isecnqt74uud@4ax.com...

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:06:27 +0200, "de_menezes"
<de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote:

So go live in a cave. Don't let us stop you.

Could not the unwillingness to escape also be considered a sign of
tacit approval?

So big bad brave guy, tell me what you are actually doing that is
spitting in the face of society, besides ranting and raving at
atheists?

Perhaps there is a method of approach that clouds the discussion. Have
you tried engaging anybody without launching into insults so quickly?

Why? Fear. They
are too scared to think about the world we are living in. And, in the end, they
don't care. Just a bunch of little slaves to their selfish genes. Or, as Uncle *****
would have called it; slaves to the 'natural'.

Do you have this same fear?

So, I don't have to go out in the streets, and protest, or whatnot. I can spit
in the face of the society from right here. Where I am at. And, funny enough,
I don't need any diploma or any special skills. All one needs is some empathy,
understanding and something between ears, that is not earwax.

Why bother with politicians, economists, governments etc etc? They are not
important.

The work they can be engaged in can make a difference though, and
there's not much else to work with. The alternative of throwing up
one's hands in resignation helps nothing.

Just because I did not criticise "society" does not mean I
have no criticism of it, I merely commented on something else.

I don't know, maybe most people in this atheism newsgroup want to stay
closer to the group topic, and general socio-political subjects don't
get the attention you feel is warranted. There are many groups, is it
the social topics you are interested in primarily or is it just
atheists' reactions to your statements about these issues that you are
interested in?

So, I am wondering; are atheists just another group of people parroting about
their opponents,acting as something they are not and talking how they are upset
about some things they don't like, OR... are atheist genuinly concerned, and
worried about ANY kind of injustice? Crime? Lies? Deceit?

You use the word "wondering" but it appears you have made solid
conclusions, far past wondering anymore. Yes/no?

So far, all I have seen (and that's just me), is yet another group of people,
being nothing more but a bunch of hypocrites, that only survive and depend
on what church is doing and how the church is acting.

I doubt that, given that atheists are without belief in god, there is
a wide world of topics/interest/issues that are outside of
theism/atheism. I would think there is a diversity in atheists as
possible in any large segment of the world. I don't get the depend
comment, opposition to theism or the organizations of theists would
infer independence from them. The influence of theism is felt/noticed
and objected to, but an atheist would be thrilled to not have theism
to ***** about. It would certainly free up some time and energy for
some people to pursue other things of interest or concern whatever
they might be.

NOTHING more. So, no. Atheists are NOT genuinly concerned about injustice.
They are more concerned in narrowing down the infulence of sie evol church,
religion, call it whatever you want, 'jem'.

Bear with me for a sec: The society for the prevention of cruelty to
animals does not direct their resources at automobile safety, the
environmental protection and conservation groups do not direct their
resources toward drug abuse issues, library and historical groups do
not direct their resources at diseases and health concern issues. It's
not that these groups are neglecting the other issues at everybody's
peril and deserve condemnation for it, they are simply doing what is
natural for that type of group. Perhaps atheists that take the
interest in reading and posting in this newsgroup are primarily
concerned with the issues they are sensitive to as relates to the
topic of the newsgroup, and want to join in or witness the discussion.
I seriously doubt that atheism is the major defining thing in their
life, but it may appear to be- if this is the only exposure one has of
them is in here. Jumping to the offensive against anybody and then
receiving hostile reaction is a normal reaction, regardless of the
topic.

In the end, that makes you NO different than theists and the oh zo evol church.

In fact, when I see an atheist, I see just another hypocrite and a liar. Just another theist.
Willing to lie in order to spread and strenghten his or hers beliefs. Nothing more.

We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose. I can only truly speak for
myself, but my path to calling myself an atheist started with my
idealistic desire for the truth, when I observed blatant hypocrisy in
the people that attended the church my parents dragged me to, and was
simultaneously reinforced by seeing superbly ethical and charitable
people that had no association with any religion or theistic belief.
These two things kick-started my journey away from religion or belief
in gods. I sincerely think I have no reason to believe there is a god,
or there is anything supernatural be it a god or demon or leprechaun.
The other side of the same coin is my understanding of how religions
were created, by who and why, and the manmade construct of god is
simply in error. The result of my search for truth has lead me to
conclude I am an atheist, I am not trying to prove anything. The
concept of god is implausible to me, and by rejecting this implausible
concept I am by default an atheist, I did not start with the premise
that I am to be an atheist and only consider what supports that. I was
not exposed to the idea there might not be a god, I had no clue what
atheism or theism meant, I didn't even know the words. As my cognition
of my surroundings matured, I was faced with inconsistencies I could
not resolve within a belief structure or faith in a god. It simply
broke down at the lowest level first as I saw it, and through my
lifetime (now 50) I have never been able to find credibility in
religion. Most of my life was spent completely unmindful of religion,
I didn't give a ***** one way or the other, I knew I had no interest in
a church and that was enough. It was nice, really nice. The last few
years my interest has been aroused because there is worsening
hostility that has the lines drawn with religions, and this is not the
human progress direction I can ignore or agree with. It is more a
deterioration than anything else.
There's a point in there somewhere. In short, I don't feel I have to
lie to defend atheism, because I feel atheism is essentially the
result of rejecting a certain lie, it need be no more than that.

Where would you go anyway?

Why should I go anywhere? Just because I am, indirectly, criticising you, 'jem',
I should go living in a cave? Why? To prove my point, or in order to make you
feel better about yourself, huh?

You are determined to be an *****, I hope that really solves all the
hypocrisy, manipulation, and lies in your world.

Why am I an *****? Because, I have beaten you in this little 'game' of ours?
Come on, dude, grow a spine. Me understanding you, does not make me an
*****. Capisci?

I think your are *acting* like an ***** for attacking me over
something that you have no idea what I think about regarding what you
are attacking me about. We may well agree on many things, but since I
bitched at churches, you attacked me about society's evils in general.
Pick a topic that is not so broad and maybe we can have a civil
discussion. I rarely start the insult trading, but I am willing to
give as much as I get.
I doubt you understand me. You have an assumption of what I am, and
it's what you are ranting against, you have little idea what or who I
am.

I was only asking a

Oh, my bad. My apologies. 'For now' got you confused. Sorry, my bad.

I guess "for now" had nothing to do with time or permanence or
impermanence, you're right I did not know to ignore that. I am trying
to understand what you write, and there is much room for
interpretation as often the case in many short writings.

It appears to me that he didn't say or imply the US is the whole
planet, he implied religiously bent people are a major problem for the
USA.

You didn't get my point, 'jem'.

ya, probably not!

Well then, what are you doing here?

Attempting to understand what you are saying, and attempting to get
you to understand me. It's a basic reason for communication I thought.
What are you doing here?

You inserted an implication that is not really in the text.

Implication that seems to be true. Not only seems to be, but is true.

I am willing to say that what the USA does has a big effect on the
rest of the world, disregarding right or wrong, that's an apparent
fact, and maybe that is what pisses you off the most?

OMG, 'jem'. See? You have the nerve to say that? Like, I, a nonamerican,
am somehow 'jealous' of you and your country?

DUDE! You have just proved my fucking point, 'jem'!!

Yes, I have the nerve to say that the USA has a significant impact
outside it's borders. If you don't believe that, you really are an
idiot.

I believe that, because you appear to be somewhat intelligent, 'jem'.

Thank you, somewhat intelligent would rate somewhat above idiot, I can
appreciate it.

I didn't say it was good or bad, just that it has an effect. So

you are in Europe and you are unaware of American influence on the
world stage. You are the one that mentioned jealousy, all I asked is
if it pissed you off, apparently it does.

Cunning little ***** you are, right 'jem'? NHF, but hahahaha.

Where shall I start, hmmm...

Try a short explanation of where you are coming from, don't jump to
the final blows.

I didn't say it was good or bad, just that it has an effect.

It is way past a mere 'effect', 'jem'. I hope you understand that.

The word effect by itself does not imply the degree of effect, nor
does it imply if the effect is good or bad, it's a simple meaning
without parameters. If you are saying that the USA has a large and
negative effect on the world, then we did find common ground, I agree.
It has contributed to positive things as well, but those are not in
need of fixing so much, the negative thing needs and warrants
attention. Many Americans are well aware of it, the country is not
mostly morons. I have little understanding why they don't control it
intelligently, and that may be the real root problem.

So
you are in Europe and you are unaware of American influence on the
world stage.

You missed my question entirely, I was reacting straight to your
comments that seemed to say the USA had no impact or effect, and that
Americans thought the world was defacto the result of
anything/everything American.

If I were a typical american, I'd be oblivious to evil. Brainwashed from
birth. And would die in ignorance. Sad fact(s).

Yup, a sad fact that is too common in the USA, but I would have to
question typical, there is much room for debate there. My guess is
about 25% of the USA is, or possibly is, prone to fundamental beliefs
and are as you describe. The rest are varying degrees of moderate
believers or anything but bronze age idiots, ranging from the hugely
sympathetic to religion all the way to atheist. Personally I think
democracy as an expression of the true desires of the majority is an
abject failure in the USA, given the truth and time to give it
discussion, I do believe that Americans would make very good choices
that impact positively inside and outside the country. That's clearly
not the case at hand.
Still, there's a huge number of very smart people in the USA.

You are sure I'm American huh?

Nope, but you well could be.

Are you inferring typical American as you describe it above?

You are the one that mentioned jealousy, all I asked is

if it pissed you off, apparently it does.

That make no sense to me. The effects are important, they are
manifested in real events and situations for real people, in huge
numbers and some with devastating consequences. If something bad is
done but it is done in a way you approve of, it is still a bad thing,
I must be missing an underlying precept you haven't made clear to me.
Is it merely the arrogance that bothers you and not what they actually
do? Is the damage not important?
By you screaming about America and what it thinks of itself and so on,
it certainly looked like you were ***** about America, why not
for reasons regarding the results of its actions outside itself?

And as I
recall, you were the one implying that I am somehow pissed of because,
'disregarding right or wrong', USA has an enormous effect on the rest of the
world.

Well, I do NOT disregard right or wrong.

Then you misunderstood my point, I was simply inquiring to find a
starting point or basic reason you were so offended by the USA or
Americans. When I said "disregarding right or wrong" I was setting
aside evaluation of those effects, I was not minimizing them or
glossing over them, I was simply not addressing that. To gain a clear
understanding of what you intend, I need some level of detail, and I
would think vice versa should be true also. I have no idea what you
have experienced or what you know or hear or whatever, and there must
be someplace to begin an interaction, it can't get to the heart and
final part of the discussion without getting through the phase of
finding each other's stance or beliefs or knowledge or concerns or
whatever you want to call it. I was trying to start at a starting
point, not jump right to a confused screaming match.
If an insult festa is what you want then tell me now so I can spend my
time on less wasteful things.

Capisci?

Io sono dottrina.
(my hands were gesturing appropriately)

Religion can be a big problem outside the USA, that much is also
obvious.

Religion is not a problem. PEOPLE are the problem, my dear atheist.

And the people that can deserve an honorable mention in the problem
department are religious people. They can do good, and they can *****
things up real good.

Same goes for atheists. But somehow atheists are immune to those problems.

Those are your words, with your agenda.
Everybody can fuckup, but it usually takes religion to knowingly do it
with a smile and happily repeat the fuckup on cue.

Right? Because, atheists are 'intelligent' and 'logical' and 'educated', right?

There is some actual empirical evidence to indicate there is something
to that supposition. As higher education is realized, lower levels of
belief are found, as famously noted by the 95% members of the American
Academy of Sciences that are nonbelievers. This is not a group of
idiots by any stretch. I am a bit confused about the 5%, but ya can't
win'em all! ;-)
Try not to read too much into the joke ok?

Well, as far as I can see... no book can make you, atheists, escape the
human stupidity. I hope you understand that.

Books help with ignorance, not with stupidity.
I get it.

So who will be the big problem next? China? EU?
My guess is China.....

China is not a problem.

Not yet. They've got the momentum in their favor, and the USA is
losing ground on just about everything but military these days, so it
seems.

China never has and it never will be a problem.

They have never been in a position to before. They may well be in the
default superpower position in a century from now, especially if
things don't change from what they are going now. Economically the EU
may well dwarf the USA also. There's no reliable predicting, but the
possibility is not so remote at all. If China has no real obstacle,
they may end up a dominant force that puts everybody at their service.
Just consider what the scenario is between China and the USA is right
now. China is an extremely powerful economy and growing, and it's
appetite for energy and goods is growing rapidly. They have a HUGE
military, outnumbering the USA by a lot, and it has the money, desire,
and need to modernize the military. They have already demonstrated
that they know how to knock out satellites. I bet I don't need to
remind you that the economies and militaries of all the western
countries rely heavily on satellite communications and imagery. China
is capable of crafting and executing any policy they want, the average
citizen is not about to effectively object, as long as they are
reasonably pacified with an improving lifestyle which is part of our
problems also as their consumption grows. We will compete head to head
for resources, the dance has already started, don't bet too heavily
against the Chinese. There is much more, and I'm sure plenty I have no
clue about, but that is enough to set the stage right there on the
Chinese side. I'm not saying they are evil, but that survival and
prosperity and the drive to "win" is all it takes to set up a
conflict. Now look at the USA, it is the biggest debtor nation by far,
has been a long time now, and they owe most of it to none other than
China, who is not incidentally the richest cash reserve country in the
world. The USA military is in bad shape, and strained, despite having
awesome power, it has chinks in the armor so to speak (half pun
intended). The only real substantial manufacturing that the USA beats
the ***** out of everybody else at still is in armaments, really good
ones too, and lots of it. The Chinese are not blind, they have the
money/interest/need remember? Other manufacturing has been outsourced
and is not domestic anymore, from Asia- most notably China. The USA
does not have that massive production anymore, they sold themselves
short so they could buy cheap trinkets at WalMart, which WalMart in
itself is another stain in America and part of its problem. Diversity
of businesses and the power of small business is neutered, and may not
recover ever. But they can get cheap trinkets for now, and still fill
the 4,500 lb SUV with premium fuel, and grab some shitty food in a
hurry. There are many parts of the problem. Next take a look at what
the international community thinks of America. They elected an idiot,
and he did idiotic things, and it appears that America is a brazen and
near lawless bully. Erosion of personal rights is not a good thing,
and that's a disheartening trend. Plenty of people in western
countries still love America. Plenty of those people are justifiably
convinced there is something stupid happening in America too. Those
that have resources are nervously buddy buddy or solidly in another
orbit like China or Russia perhaps. But on the whole, much of the
world may just be paying lip service to keep the 900 pound gorilla
from fucking them over as it has shown it will do in a New York second
especially to small countries, and they would jump ship to a 1,000
pound gorilla in a heartbeat(think China), while flipping the bird at
the USA, and drooling over the sweet-talking they got to swing their
loyalty which may or may not be a good deal that's irrelevant, the USA
is fucked in any case with that eventuality. Much of the domestic
manufacturing like automobiles and railcars in the USA is owned
outside the USA, much of the corporate profit of US companies is not
subjected to reasonable tax via offshore hiding or outright asskissing
from the US government. Rich people don't contribute anywhere near
enough, and the average schmuck is struggling to foot the bill and it
still ends in deficit. This is part of the issue that you flouted in
my face and accused me of not caring or that I was blind to it. I've
read statistics that blow the mind, like the total wealth of the top
few percent in the USA is bigger than many countries gross domestic
product COMBINED. I forget the exact stats, but it's fucking obscene.
The safety nets that help a citizenry have confidence in their future
are disappearing. I am an average schmuck, and believe me I am
struggling to stay afloat and I do not have an expensive car & house
etc, I do have more debt than I should, just like the average US
schmuck. I am also one major medical problem away from losing
everything I own, that's no fucking fun to think about. Needless to
say, the blowing of cash on a giant fuckup war and the loss of revenue
is bad business management. The US economy has a few things going for
it, but the housing market is not quite the mainstay it was claimed,
and the housing industry is hurting, and part of the reason your Euro
has climbed against the US dollar right now. Credit is easy and
defaults are soaring. Right now the USA can't get off the fat
oil-teat. They have shitty immigration policies that is keeping out
droves of high academic achievers. But floor cleaners can still sneak
in. They import more oil from Canada than anybody else, and one major
extraction process in Canada is terribly brutal on the environment, if
the Canadians get a damn spine and show real concern over
environmental issues- that could choke off a big flow of oil imports.
It goes on and on and on but I don't have the stomach to keep going,
and it's not hard to see that human nature(Chinese) and status quo
maintenance(USA) could put the USA way back from first place, just
give it time.
And to top the little rant off, what could be more frustrating than to
be in the most powerful country in the world, and make no mistake,
being the most powerful should mean that it has the best scenario
possible to provide a fantastic standard of living but it pales in
comparison to many other countries with a fraction of the power and
money. When the richest country in the world can't even provide
universal health care, something's fucked up bad.
You think these are fun things for somebody in America to admit to
anybody? Especially to one that loves to insult the USA like you do?
Would you be even madder if the USA focused its wealth on bettering
the lives of its citizens? The USA does have massive power, and if it
used that power exclusively for the benefit of its entire citizenry,
heaven would suck compared to the result. Then you really would have a
reason to be jealous.
The greatest potential of any nation in history still resides with the
USA, I hope it goes for it before it loses the potential. The middle
of the last century demonstrated what it can do, and it created the
biggest middle class population on earth, never seen before. That was
an amazing thing, and it could happen again.
How's that for *scratching the surface* of my fucking discontent? Tell
me I am a numb dumb and happy arrogant ignorant deluded ***** because
I didn't ***** about something else that is near and dear to your
fucking cold heart. I won't beat around the fucking bush, make it
clear what the ***** you want to talk about before you call me names,
and don't make grand fucking assumptions you have no fucking clue
about.
Capeesh?