Religions > Atheism > AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Uncle Clover" |
| Date: |
09 Dec 2006 06:49:02 PM |
| Object: |
AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
The question isn't so relevant for those born and raised without theism.
But for those who aren't so lucky, such as myself, I'm stymied sometimes when I
try to figure out why some of us leave theism behind. People tend to take on
the religious views they're raised with, but not a certain % of us. Some
convert to other religons, and some leave religion behind forever. Why?
For myself, I know one major influence is an absolute refusal to lie to
myself and to live as honestly as I can. Regardless of whether or not any brand
of theism is true, I don't honestly see it, and thus can't honestly live as
though I believed. There may be something I've missed which I will eventually
catch onto that will lead me back to theism. If that happens, it will be
because I've honestly come to believe something I either didn't previously know
or couldn't previously understand.
That's pretty much it for me. I seek truth, the Ultimate Truth if such
a thing exists, and my quest is genuine and unwaveringly sincere. I don't care
if I end up having to accept something I'd rather not believe, if it's the truth
and I can see that, I will accept it no matter how pleasant or unpleasant it may
be. I have no choice other than to forever gaze beneath the venir of "polite
socity" and "cultural norms" - I see the masks mankind tries to place upon the
face of reality, and I know they are not real no matter how many people claim
them to be.
That's a somewhat depressing thing, to, to be quite honest with you.
Reality isn't a very encouraging or inspiring affair - it is what it is, and the
only comfort one can take is in knowing that one has made a genuine attempt at
understanding it on its own terms, and not on the terms one might -wish- for.
Wishful thinking and willful self-delusion - these seem to be the only
things that get so many people through the drudgeries of life. It's really
rather ironic that we appear to have evolved to thrive under such self-delusion
while simultaneously possessing an unquenchable thirst for the truth - the truth
which would put the lie to all the illusions that make life more bearable for so
many of us.
So desperate are we to maintain our comforting illusions that many of us
are willing to kill if they must in order to do so. A house of cards is a
beautiful thing in its own way, but the lightest stirring of Truth is more than
wind enough to bring it down. One cannot base their entire existence upon such
a transient, fragile thing.
--
L8r,
Uncle Clover
************************************************************
"In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first
create the universe."
- Carl Sagan, "Cosmos"
************************************************************
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity...
************************************************************
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
20 Dec 2006 01:35:11 PM |
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On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:49:02 -0500, Uncle Clover
<UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
The question isn't so relevant for those born and raised without theism.
But for those who aren't so lucky, such as myself, I'm stymied sometimes when I
try to figure out why some of us leave theism behind. People tend to take on
the religious views they're raised with, but not a certain % of us. Some
convert to other religons, and some leave religion behind forever. Why?
Reduction of the terror factor to the point where the cognitive
facilities are able to 'come online.'
[]
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "JEM" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
10 Dec 2006 05:06:49 AM |
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On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:49:02 -0500, Uncle Clover
<UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
The question isn't so relevant for those born and raised without theism.
But for those who aren't so lucky, such as myself, I'm stymied sometimes when I
try to figure out why some of us leave theism behind. People tend to take on
the religious views they're raised with, but not a certain % of us. Some
convert to other religons, and some leave religion behind forever. Why?
<snip good stuff>
I was raised in a roman catholic household, the youngest of four
children spanning ten years from oldest to youngest.
For me, maybe around 9 years old I could see my siblings thought going
to church was merely a pain in the *****, and I think that may have been
the genesis of my questioning it later. I never discussed it with
anyone. At 12 years old I came to a simple conclusion about the
hypocrisy of some attendees at our church, and observations about
people that did not go to any church. Some of these church people were
not good people, they were basically assholes that did nasty stuff
like steal and beat people up and so on. On the other hand, there were
people that as far as I knew were really good people, ethical, nice,
charitable, peaceful and so on, and they did not go to any church. I
may have been looking for an excuse to stop going, I can't remember
all my thoughts 38 years ago.
My boredom in church was noticed and challenged by my seriously devout
father. My answer was that I did not think going to church was
necessary to be a good person, and I did not understand or like or
agree with the magical mystical elements. It seemed that the miracles
and other supernatural aspects were simply not believable. I told him
I did not want to go to church anymore, that I had a good idea what
good and evil was, ethical and unethical behavior, I simply wanted to
apply the golden rule, essentially I thought I had learned what I
needed to and religion had no more to offer me that I wanted or
needed.
My siblings were astounded that I faced my father like that, and so
was I, he was a pretty strict dad, with a lot of baggage and difficult
to live with, he was uncompromising in character, but he left me alone
after that. That helped me grow some of my own baggage regarding my
relationship with him, unfortunately. I was lucky being the youngest,
and I "got away" with more than they did.
I never returned for a church service other than funerals or weddings,
and a couple midnight masses at xmas.
My recent interest in topics of theism and atheism are due to a few
things I suppose, one is that I am older and more reflective so I am
curious and more concerned with social issues. Another reason is the
rising importance in current times about the conflicts we see with
religions playing such a role in the lines of division in those
conflicts.
I stepped away from religion primarily because I thought it was simply
unnecessary, good behavior and bad behavior seemed to have nothing to
do with attending church. I remained uninvolved for nearly 4 decades.
My interest and thoughts has brought me to believe that I should
solidify my reasoning, grow my knowledge, and speak out when
appropriate. I also believe that the lack of questioning of blind
faith has allowed problems to fester in the world, and can now have
devastating consequences. I think it is time for me to be involved
somehow.
I am not looking to pick theistic arguments with the faithful, (except
for a few scrappy responses in this newsgroup) maybe I will get there
some day, but I will speak my piece if questioned or the topic comes
up. Part of the reason for participating in this newsgroup is
preparing for those future discussions.
It seems that there may be enough people that could really sway the
issue on a grand scale-- if they were to think about it and speak
their mind. I want to be one of those people in some way however small
my influence is.
On a positive note, I have found some like-minded people(basically
having no belief in god) that are unwilling to speak up or challenge a
believer, and maybe our conversations have helped them consider
speaking up at some time in the future. I hope so.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
10 Dec 2006 12:28:37 AM |
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On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:49:02 -0500, Uncle Clover
<UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
It's not character or psychology, except that addictive personalities
are often sucked in by religion.
But it's intelligence that gets people out of it - the intelligence to
see all the internal contradictions that makes people say to
themselves "adults really believe this horse *****?"
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
- Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
10 Dec 2006 04:07:38 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
Question: "Of those raised in religious households,
what character and psychological traits might incline
one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
I'm wondering if anyone is going to say it, but the only
real requirement is Conflict.
well, I suppose you can't be a spineless worm either.
Meaning, when the conflict does arise, you can't be
the sort to immediately back down.
Generally speaking, you question -- and explore --
something because you have some sort of conflict
with it.
Example: Before an argument with a lunatuc Reich
winger some years ago, I never had reason to
investigate the myth that Kennedy stole the 1960
election. But because of that conflict I investigated
the matter & exposed the myth.
(Kennedy didn't need Illinois. He would've won without it)
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| User: "ernobe" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
10 Dec 2006 10:10:56 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
The question isn't so relevant for those born and raised without theism.
But for those who aren't so lucky, such as myself, I'm stymied sometimes when I
try to figure out why some of us leave theism behind. People tend to take on
the religious views they're raised with, but not a certain % of us. Some
convert to other religons, and some leave religion behind forever. Why?
Those raised in religious households are free to abandon the religious
views of their parents, but such a move doesn't make them atheists or
non-theists. So, to answer your question, the "character and
psychological traits" that might incline them towards atheism or
non-theism are their own character and psychological traits. They are
aware of the character and traits that incline people to adopt the
religion, and have decided that they don't want to be part of that
religion. It really has nothing to do with theism, because that
religion is merely one among many expressions of theism.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or"non-theism"? |
09 Dec 2006 07:29:51 PM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
The question isn't so relevant for those born and raised without theism.
But for those who aren't so lucky, such as myself, I'm stymied sometimes when I
try to figure out why some of us leave theism behind. People tend to take on
the religious views they're raised with, but not a certain % of us. Some
convert to other religons, and some leave religion behind forever. Why?
(snip)
This is a good place to snip, because I think that last
sentence is the answer. People who can't stop themselves
from asking "Why?" when they are being fed some unbelievable
rule or custom or history that is part of their religious
dogma. I got in trouble all the time in religious class (we
went every Saturday morning, when other kids watched
cartoons). Every time a nun or priest told us something we
were supposed to accept and memorize without thought, I
would come up with some convoluted scenario that took their
pronouncement to total absurdity and they had to either come
up with some also absurd response, or tell me to shut up. I
staggered along like this for 10 years or so, seriously
trying to make sense of Catholicism but ended up at the
inevitable conclusion... that they were full of *****.
My religion made no sense, so I had to set it aside and go
on without it.
Those with the internal requirement to ask "Why?", to make
sense of things, will eventually escape, even if it is only
in their own minds.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
09 Dec 2006 08:58:24 PM |
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"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:bpWdndz9LOb6_ebYnZ2dnUVZ_rOqnZ2d@adelphia.com...
Uncle Clover wrote:
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
The question isn't so relevant for those born and raised without theism.
But for those who aren't so lucky, such as myself, I'm stymied sometimes
when I
try to figure out why some of us leave theism behind. People tend to
take on
the religious views they're raised with, but not a certain % of us. Some
convert to other religons, and some leave religion behind forever. Why?
(snip)
This is a good place to snip, because I think that last sentence is the
answer. People who can't stop themselves from asking "Why?" when they are
being fed some unbelievable rule or custom or history that is part of
their religious dogma. I got in trouble all the time in religious class
(we went every Saturday morning, when other kids watched cartoons). Every
time a nun or priest told us something we were supposed to accept and
memorize without thought, I would come up with some convoluted scenario
that took their pronouncement to total absurdity and they had to either
come up with some also absurd response, or tell me to shut up. I
staggered along like this for 10 years or so, seriously trying to make
sense of Catholicism but ended up at the inevitable conclusion... that
they were full of *****.
My religion made no sense, so I had to set it aside and go on without it.
Those with the internal requirement to ask "Why?", to make sense of
things, will eventually escape, even if it is only in their own minds.
Dang. You really hit on the 'reality' of being 'real' in an 'unreal'
environment, didn't you? Nice going.
Greywolf
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: AA question: What kind of people might tend towards atheism or "non-theism"? |
10 Dec 2006 02:05:10 AM |
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In article <bpWdndz9LOb6_ebYnZ2dnUVZ_rOqnZ2d@adelphia.com>,
John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
Question: "Of those raised in religious households, what character and
psychological traits might incline one towards atheism or 'non-theism'?"
The question isn't so relevant for those born and raised without theism.
But for those who aren't so lucky, such as myself, I'm stymied sometimes
when I
try to figure out why some of us leave theism behind. People tend to take
on
the religious views they're raised with, but not a certain % of us. Some
convert to other religons, and some leave religion behind forever. Why?
(snip)
This is a good place to snip, because I think that last
sentence is the answer. People who can't stop themselves
from asking "Why?" when they are being fed some unbelievable
rule or custom or history that is part of their religious
dogma. I got in trouble all the time in religious class (we
went every Saturday morning, when other kids watched
cartoons). Every time a nun or priest told us something we
were supposed to accept and memorize without thought, I
would come up with some convoluted scenario that took their
pronouncement to total absurdity and they had to either come
up with some also absurd response, or tell me to shut up. I
staggered along like this for 10 years or so, seriously
trying to make sense of Catholicism but ended up at the
inevitable conclusion... that they were full of *****.
My religion made no sense, so I had to set it aside and go
on without it.
Those with the internal requirement to ask "Why?", to make
sense of things, will eventually escape, even if it is only
in their own minds.
I agree. I would add, that in addition to asking 'why' it is the
willingness to look for and objectively evaluate evidence. I also grew
up in a Catholic environment and when I asked why, I was usually told to
shut up, or pray that God would give me 'grace' to understand their
nonsense, or to read their propagandizing literature.
I like to read, but not the books that the nuns and priests would have
liked me to. I read history. I read about the Crusades, the witch
trials, the Inquisitions, the religious wars. These showed me that the
Church was capable of horrendous injustices and rarely practiced what it
preached. I read science fiction which led to reading about science. I
learned that one should not accept things unless supported by evidence.
Also I discovered that gods were not needed to explain the universe and
my own existence.
I read about other religions and how they came to be. The problems were
just as obvious. I could go on, but finally I came to the same
conclusion as you, it was all a huge crock.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
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