AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Bill, The Avender"
Date: 25 Dec 2003 02:47:54 PM
Object: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker
Yesterday before leaving work, one of the nurses with whom I have to
speak frequently as part of my job asked me if I was doing anything
special for Christmas. Not wanting to get into it, I simply said,
"No."
Well, you would have thought I said, "Die, *****, die!" for the gasp
of shock which then ensued. "Well... how could you not be doing
something for Christmas?" she cooed in that patronizingly "sweet" way
of which only smarmy fundamentalists are capable.
"I'm just not," I said. Rather than take the hint that I didn't
particularly want to talk about it, she pressed further. "Fine. I'm
not a Christian. Is that better?"
I don't think the poor nosey little ***** has ever had anyone say that
to her before. She left me know in no uncertain terms that it was her
duty as a Christian to try to save me, to at least pray for me, and
what a wonderful thing "salvation" was and yadda yadda yadda yadda...
At first, I tried to be patient and civil - unlike her - and said,
"Thanks for the concern, go ahead and pray for me if you really want
to."
She must have gone on for at least ten minutes. By the time it was
over, I reiterated, in a less friendly manner, "Fine, pray for me if
you must, it's certainly better than you actually doing any sort of
'work' or other trivial little things like that. I really don't care
either way if you pray for me or not and I don't really want to talk
religion with you."
She was going to persist, but I left while she was momentarily
distracted by my cubicle neighbor.
There's a little background, here. One of our local politicians has
retired from public life and now resides as a big shot where I work.
He's also a preacher. And he holds weekly Bible studies that people
can go to over lunch. At first, it was no problem. But as word
seemed to spread that I'm not a Christian, I've been finding myself
more and more inundated with people condescendingly informing me that
I really _should_ go to some of those Bible studies, that it's for my
own good, and yadda yadda yadda...
Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week. She's a Christian, but she's also very
intelligent and understands the importance of tolerating diversity in
the work place. I'm going to ask that she send an e-mail out that
clarifies the fact that religious solicitation is included with all
the other kinds of solicitation the company doesn't permit on company
grounds during company time. She probably will, she's very good about
doing stuff like that - both in the interest of fairness, and in the
interest of keeping her and the rest of the company out of court.
I may even have to mention something about the good reverend's
incredibly annoying habit of laying Christian propaganda tracts all
through the bathrooms. They're not even up to the level of Chick
tracts, so it's not like they even have any entertainment value. Then
again, the little bonfires I make of them are kinda' "fun" in some
perverse way. Knowing that he's wasted his money and/or time on them
so I could enjoy a few seconds of flaming amusement is somewhat
gratifying. I might have to just let that one slide...
Anyway, thanks for listening. The old biddy that I first spoke about
is probably going to continue applying some pressure, as she's a
senior nurse there and therefore doesn't have to obey the rules as
much as those lower on the food chain (She has no legal right to do
this, but you know how it goes - functional rights are every bit as
useful as _real_ rights when it comes to crap like that).
Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?
--
L8r,
Bill
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
The quest is never fruitless -
even when all you walk away with
are memories of the search.
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
.

User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 05:10:15 PM
"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.
I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot of
resources.
You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?
.
User: "Kate "

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 06:38:16 PM
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot of
resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?

How incredibly rude.
.
User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 08:24:04 PM
"Kate " <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:40008261.168798468@news-west.newscene.com...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot of
resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?



How incredibly rude.

Nah, a bit crude perhaps.
Rude would be to ask if they had tried any animals.
.

User: "Craig"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 08:28:58 PM
"Kate " <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:40008261.168798468@news-west.newscene.com...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot of
resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?



How incredibly rude.

Said the sheep.
.

User: "No 33 Secretary"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 11:12:16 AM
(Kate ) wrote in news:40008261.168798468@news-
west.newscene.com:

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot of
resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?



How incredibly rude.

But funny.
--
Terry Austin
taustin@hyperbooks.com
www.hyperbooks.com
Roleplaying Stuff
.

User: "Adam Marczyk"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 08:48:38 PM
Kate <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:40008261.168798468@news-west.newscene.com...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot
of resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?


How incredibly rude.

Why? It's a Bible *study*, isn't it? What's wrong with asking an honest
question? It's hardly *our* fault if there are many parts of the Bible that
modern-day believers tend to gloss over or ignore.
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
.
User: "Kate "

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 09:45:13 PM
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:48:38 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:

Kate <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:40008261.168798468@news-west.newscene.com...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot
of resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?


How incredibly rude.


Why? It's a Bible *study*, isn't it? What's wrong with asking an honest
question? It's hardly *our* fault if there are many parts of the Bible that
modern-day believers tend to gloss over or ignore.

I misunderstood. I thought he was seriously advising him to go join
in the bible study and do actual bible study to become christian. I
thought it was rude to proselytize in response to his question.
.
User: "Adam Marczyk"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 10:55:06 PM
Kate <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:4002ad66.179810921@news-west.newscene.com...

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:48:38 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:

Kate <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:40008261.168798468@news-west.newscene.com...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join
the studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot
of resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?


How incredibly rude.


Why? It's a Bible *study*, isn't it? What's wrong with asking an honest
question? It's hardly *our* fault if there are many parts of the Bible
that modern-day believers tend to gloss over or ignore.


I misunderstood. I thought he was seriously advising him to go join
in the bible study and do actual bible study to become christian. I
thought it was rude to proselytize in response to his question.

Ah, okay - then I misunderstood your post as well. I apologize.
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
.

User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 11:30:57 PM
On 25 Dec 2003 21:45:13 -0600,
(Kate ) posted to
alt.atheism:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:48:38 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:

Kate <

> wrote in message
news:40008261.168798468@news-west.newscene.com...

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot
of resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?


How incredibly rude.


Why? It's a Bible *study*, isn't it? What's wrong with asking an honest
question? It's hardly *our* fault if there are many parts of the Bible that
modern-day believers tend to gloss over or ignore.


I misunderstood. I thought he was seriously advising him to go join
in the bible study and do actual bible study to become christian. I
thought it was rude to proselytize in response to his question.

Mike, proselytizing for Christianity? Maybe as an attempt at a sick
joke.
--
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his father, mother, wife, brothers, and sisters and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.



User: "Michelle Malkin"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 01:06:09 AM
On 25 Dec 2003 18:38:16 -0600,
(Kate ) wrote:

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:10:15 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
wrote:


"Bill, The Avender" <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...

So go buy some current books by real scholars on the bible and join the
studies.

I've mentioned that I just started "The Jesus Puzzle" and it has a lot of
resources.

You could ask the same innocent questions they do.
How come God didn't create Eve until after Adam tried all the animals?



How incredibly rude.

Exactly. You didn't answer the question.
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action,
rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith.
Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let
me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. For
happiness is the only good, reason the only torch,
justice the only worship, and love the only priest.
- Robert Green Ingersoll
**************************************************************
.



User: "Erica"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 01:38:50 AM
(tiptoes in)
I got the supervisor of a courier who picks up our company's boxes to
tell him to knock off the religious talk on the job. Actually, their way
of dealing with it was to make a general announcement to the whole
delivery crew at the morning meeting that talk about religion or any
such personal subject on the job was unacceptable and wouldn't be
tolerated.
I was so grateful. The obnoxious little bulldog of a man was not only
getting in MY face with his particular brand of Christianity, but also
in the faces of people at the Catholic Churches he delivered to, and
others all day long, theist or non. He did SO enjoy telling us all we
were wrong and he was right. On everything.
So, it can be done. Anonymously if possible, I would suggest. You
shouldn't have to put up with the invasion into your privacy.
(I know, I know -- the theist is fucking off now. Byee)
.

User: "No 33 Secretary"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 11:10:30 AM
(Bill, The Avender) wrote in
news:3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net:

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week. She's a Christian, but she's also very
intelligent and understands the importance of tolerating diversity in
the work place.

And that she's personally liable if she doesn't protect you from a hostile
work environment, once you formally complain.

Anyway, thanks for listening. The old biddy that I first spoke about
is probably going to continue applying some pressure, as she's a
senior nurse there and therefore doesn't have to obey the rules as
much as those lower on the food chain (She has no legal right to do
this, but you know how it goes - functional rights are every bit as
useful as _real_ rights when it comes to crap like that).

If she keeps it up, and they don't fire her perverted ***** for it, you get
to retire early.


Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?

Maybe. You can certainly embarass the living ***** out of them by making
noises to that effect. Remind them of the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit.
--
Terry Austin
taustin@hyperbooks.com
www.hyperbooks.com
Roleplaying Stuff
.

User: "Abner Mintz"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 09:29:11 PM
Bill, The Avender <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week.

Good luck with this; I think you have a good chance at this, from
what you said.

Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?

Possibly, but I think this would be a big mistake. Part of life
is choosing your battles carefully, and I think that this would
lead to lots of problems with others at the company, and they
*can* make life very unpleasant for you. Like you said,
functional rights are often as important as actual rights.
.
User: "ArWeGod"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 03:13:02 AM
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g6jnj9.tjj526plzatcN%abnermintz@earthlink.net...

Bill, The Avender <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week.


Good luck with this; I think you have a good chance at this, from
what you said.

Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?


Possibly, but I think this would be a big mistake. Part of life
is choosing your battles carefully, and I think that this would
lead to lots of problems with others at the company, and they
*can* make life very unpleasant for you. Like you said,
functional rights are often as important as actual rights.

Don't the Islams have a little mantra they say after they say "Allah", like
"Glory be to him" or something? Well, you could write a letter saying that
they were disrespecting God, "The one and only God" by saying "...service to
God" ("in who's name we all persevere") without the little chant.
You would have to do better research than me, tho! ;-)
That way you aren't an evil communist satan-worshipper, but a fellow
god-mate who is pointing out their error. Of course, this may not get it
changed in a Good Way, but perhaps the Board will meet and decide that
pleasing all the faiths is hopeless. If they did it, of course, Good Xians
would then take up your battle for you.
In any case, you may not get as much grief...
--
ArWeGod
.

User: "Bill, The Avender"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 05:58:51 PM
In alt.atheism on Fri, 26 Dec 2003 03:29:11 GMT,
abnermintz@earthlink.net (Abner Mintz) wrote:

Bill, The Avender <Avender@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week.


Good luck with this; I think you have a good chance at this, from
what you said.

Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?


Possibly, but I think this would be a big mistake. Part of life
is choosing your battles carefully, and I think that this would
lead to lots of problems with others at the company, and they
*can* make life very unpleasant for you. Like you said,
functional rights are often as important as actual rights.

I had thought about that. I'm presently cultivating an "alternative
career path", though, so it is a potential "parting shot" at some
future juncture.
Then again, it might not be worth it just the same. The negative
publicity garnered either for myself or for atheism in general
probably wouldn't be worth such a small victory. While they've gone
through no great pains to be accomodating to the godless, they _have_
done more than your average company to be accomodating to all forms of
god belief. We are a hospital-owned company, and all of our founding
hospitals have gone so far as to make sure they have Wiccan and
Zoroastrian (yes, Zoroastrian) counsellors on call for patients who
may want them. They'd probably even try to find a Santerian
priest(ess) if the need ever arose. So the more I think about it, the
more I get the feeling that such an action on my part would be a bit
more "meanness" than is justified.
But still, it _is_ a bit irritating having to endorse the mission
statement to clients and members when it includes a vow that
specifically, directly and unequivocally excludes me. I place an
extremely high value on integrity and honesty, and I'm expected as
part of the job to compromise these things by silently letting it
appear that I endorse a belief structure that I so vehemently don't.
I *hate* that feeling. :-/
--
L8r,
Bill
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
The quest is never fruitless -
even when all you walk away with
are memories of the search.
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
.
User: "Kate "

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 10:34:10 PM
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:58:51 GMT,
(Bill, The
Avender) wrote:

In alt.atheism on Fri, 26 Dec 2003 03:29:11 GMT,
abnermintz@earthlink.net (Abner Mintz) wrote:

Bill, The Avender <

> wrote:

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week.


Good luck with this; I think you have a good chance at this, from
what you said.

Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?


Possibly, but I think this would be a big mistake. Part of life
is choosing your battles carefully, and I think that this would
lead to lots of problems with others at the company, and they
*can* make life very unpleasant for you. Like you said,
functional rights are often as important as actual rights.


I had thought about that. I'm presently cultivating an "alternative
career path", though, so it is a potential "parting shot" at some
future juncture.

Then again, it might not be worth it just the same. The negative
publicity garnered either for myself or for atheism in general
probably wouldn't be worth such a small victory. While they've gone
through no great pains to be accomodating to the godless, they _have_
done more than your average company to be accomodating to all forms of
god belief. We are a hospital-owned company, and all of our founding
hospitals have gone so far as to make sure they have Wiccan and
Zoroastrian (yes, Zoroastrian) counsellors on call for patients who
may want them. They'd probably even try to find a Santerian
priest(ess) if the need ever arose. So the more I think about it, the
more I get the feeling that such an action on my part would be a bit
more "meanness" than is justified.

But still, it _is_ a bit irritating having to endorse the mission
statement to clients and members when it includes a vow that
specifically, directly and unequivocally excludes me. I place an
extremely high value on integrity and honesty, and I'm expected as
part of the job to compromise these things by silently letting it
appear that I endorse a belief structure that I so vehemently don't.
I *hate* that feeling. :-/

You could simply complain about the position you had been put in by
the wording. Seems a reasonable complaint to me, and if they are
acommodating, perhaps they may rephrase it.
.



User: "Dick C"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 10:04:12 PM
Bill, The Avender wrote in alt.atheism

"I'm just not," I said. Rather than take the hint that I didn't
particularly want to talk about it, she pressed further. "Fine. I'm
not a Christian. Is that better?"

I used to work for a company that was owned by a fundy, and all the
managers were members of his church. And preaching was definitely
not allowed. It was more than a rule, it was an attitude. One
manager passed out a pamphlet at a meeting that he thought would
be of use, but when he realized that they were religious he apologized
profusely, and immediately collected them.
They also employed two of the most blatant lesbians I have ever met.
Strangely enough, only one person had a problem with them, and that
was kept to a personal level.
I really feel for you and your problems at work, the only thing I
can suggest is for you to do as you say you will.
--
***** #1349
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
Andre Gide, French author and critic (1869-1951).
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:

.

User: "*nemo*"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 09:08:20 PM
In article <3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net>,
(Bill, The Avender) wrote:

Yesterday before leaving work, one of the nurses with whom I have to
speak frequently as part of my job asked me if I was doing anything
special for Christmas. Not wanting to get into it, I simply said,
"No."

Well, you would have thought I said, "Die, *****, die!" for the gasp
of shock which then ensued. "Well... how could you not be doing
something for Christmas?" she cooed in that patronizingly "sweet" way
of which only smarmy fundamentalists are capable.

"I'm just not," I said. Rather than take the hint that I didn't
particularly want to talk about it, she pressed further. "Fine. I'm
not a Christian. Is that better?"

I don't think the poor nosey little ***** has ever had anyone say that
to her before. She left me know in no uncertain terms that it was her
duty as a Christian to try to save me, to at least pray for me, and
what a wonderful thing "salvation" was and yadda yadda yadda yadda...
At first, I tried to be patient and civil - unlike her - and said,
"Thanks for the concern, go ahead and pray for me if you really want
to."

She must have gone on for at least ten minutes. By the time it was
over, I reiterated, in a less friendly manner, "Fine, pray for me if
you must, it's certainly better than you actually doing any sort of
'work' or other trivial little things like that. I really don't care
either way if you pray for me or not and I don't really want to talk
religion with you."

She was going to persist, but I left while she was momentarily
distracted by my cubicle neighbor.

There's a little background, here. One of our local politicians has
retired from public life and now resides as a big shot where I work.
He's also a preacher. And he holds weekly Bible studies that people
can go to over lunch. At first, it was no problem. But as word
seemed to spread that I'm not a Christian, I've been finding myself
more and more inundated with people condescendingly informing me that
I really _should_ go to some of those Bible studies, that it's for my
own good, and yadda yadda yadda...

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week. She's a Christian, but she's also very
intelligent and understands the importance of tolerating diversity in
the work place. I'm going to ask that she send an e-mail out that
clarifies the fact that religious solicitation is included with all
the other kinds of solicitation the company doesn't permit on company
grounds during company time. She probably will, she's very good about
doing stuff like that - both in the interest of fairness, and in the
interest of keeping her and the rest of the company out of court.

I may even have to mention something about the good reverend's
incredibly annoying habit of laying Christian propaganda tracts all
through the bathrooms. They're not even up to the level of Chick
tracts, so it's not like they even have any entertainment value. Then
again, the little bonfires I make of them are kinda' "fun" in some
perverse way. Knowing that he's wasted his money and/or time on them
so I could enjoy a few seconds of flaming amusement is somewhat
gratifying. I might have to just let that one slide...

Some months ago, when I got a Christer booklet placed in my personal bag
by an anonoymous "friend," I made a big stink about it with HR. They
promptly sent out a notice to all employees that this was intolerable,
and that anyone caught doing that could get fired. I approved of that.
What I didn't approve of was the additional note about religious tracts
in the bathrooms. I was busy collecting all the Jack Chick tracts that
were laid out for me.
Since then, no tracts have appeared. Darn it.

Anyway, thanks for listening. The old biddy that I first spoke about
is probably going to continue applying some pressure, as she's a
senior nurse there and therefore doesn't have to obey the rules as
much as those lower on the food chain (She has no legal right to do
this, but you know how it goes - functional rights are every bit as
useful as _real_ rights when it comes to crap like that).

I got rid of one persistent person at work by using the Golden Rule. I
told him that I assume he lives by that rule, and that would imply that
if he wants me to listen to his religious views, that must mean he
expects me to give him my views. I also said that if I did try to
"deconvert" him, he might not enjoy hearing what I had to say about his
religion. So by all means, I invited him to give me his best shot... so
long as he was willing to take my best shot in return.
He hasn't said another word about religion from that point.

Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?

Dude, you live in Tennessee? We're practically neighbors.
Kewel!

--
L8r,
Bill
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
The quest is never fruitless -
even when all you walk away with
are memories of the search.
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*

--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
User: "Peacenik"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 01:03:29 PM
"*nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.dieSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-4E0D8D.22081825122003@news03.east.earthlink.net...

What I didn't approve of was the additional note about religious tracts
in the bathrooms. I was busy collecting all the Jack Chick tracts that
were laid out for me.

When I see a religious tract in a public bathroom, I throw it where it
belongs: in the urinal to be pissed on by all and sundry.
--
Peacenik
.
User: "No 33 Secretary"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 01:41:44 PM
"Peacenik" <criskity999@com999cast.removeallnines.net> wrote in
news:5C%Gb.657417$HS4.4677375@attbi_s01:

"*nemo*" <nemo0037@yahoo.dieSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:nemo0037-4E0D8D.22081825122003@news03.east.earthlink.net...

What I didn't approve of was the additional note about religious tracts
in the bathrooms. I was busy collecting all the Jack Chick tracts that
were laid out for me.


When I see a religious tract in a public bathroom, I throw it where it
belongs: in the urinal to be pissed on by all and sundry.

And they say atheists have no appreciation for symbolism.
--
Terry Austin
taustin@hyperbooks.com
www.hyperbooks.com
Roleplaying Stuff
.


User: "No 33 Secretary"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 11:14:51 AM
*nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.dieSPAM.com> wrote in news:nemo0037-
4E0D8D.22081825122003@news03.east.earthlink.net:

Some months ago, when I got a Christer booklet placed in my personal bag
by an anonoymous "friend," I made a big stink about it with HR. They
promptly sent out a notice to all employees that this was intolerable,
and that anyone caught doing that could get fired. I approved of that.
What I didn't approve of was the additional note about religious tracts
in the bathrooms. I was busy collecting all the Jack Chick tracts that
were laid out for me.

Since then, no tracts have appeared. Darn it.

You can order a complete collection direct for about $10, last I checked.

I got rid of one persistent person at work by using the Golden Rule. I
told him that I assume he lives by that rule, and that would imply that
if he wants me to listen to his religious views, that must mean he
expects me to give him my views. I also said that if I did try to
"deconvert" him, he might not enjoy hearing what I had to say about his
religion. So by all means, I invited him to give me his best shot... so
long as he was willing to take my best shot in return.

Satan worship is constitutionally protected to exactly the same degree as
any other reglion, after all.
--
Terry Austin
taustin@hyperbooks.com
www.hyperbooks.com
Roleplaying Stuff
.

User: "John Popelish"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 09:40:55 PM
*nemo* wrote:
(snip)

I got rid of one persistent person at work by using the Golden Rule. I
told him that I assume he lives by that rule, and that would imply that
if he wants me to listen to his religious views, that must mean he
expects me to give him my views. I also said that if I did try to
"deconvert" him, he might not enjoy hearing what I had to say about his
religion. So by all means, I invited him to give me his best shot... so
long as he was willing to take my best shot in return.

He hasn't said another word about religion from that point.

(snip)
This is my approach with door-to-door missionaries. Most of them are
quick to accept the trade, but I seldom get the follow up visit they
always promise. One female JW was quite fascinated with my account of
the theory of evolution while her companion fidgeted very nervously
and finally dragged my student out the door. Oh well.
--
John Popelish
.
User: "Kate "

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 11:58:07 PM
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 03:40:55 GMT, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net>
wrote:

*nemo* wrote:
(snip)

I got rid of one persistent person at work by using the Golden Rule. I
told him that I assume he lives by that rule, and that would imply that
if he wants me to listen to his religious views, that must mean he
expects me to give him my views. I also said that if I did try to
"deconvert" him, he might not enjoy hearing what I had to say about his
religion. So by all means, I invited him to give me his best shot... so
long as he was willing to take my best shot in return.

He hasn't said another word about religion from that point.

(snip)

This is my approach with door-to-door missionaries. Most of them are
quick to accept the trade, but I seldom get the follow up visit they
always promise. One female JW was quite fascinated with my account of
the theory of evolution while her companion fidgeted very nervously
and finally dragged my student out the door. Oh well.

I'm fascinated - do tell - how do you structure this lecture?
.
User: "John Popelish"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 10:02:07 AM
Kate wrote:

This is my approach with door-to-door missionaries. Most of them are
quick to accept the trade, but I seldom get the follow up visit they
always promise. One female JW was quite fascinated with my account of
the theory of evolution while her companion fidgeted very nervously
and finally dragged my student out the door. Oh well.


I'm fascinated - do tell - how do you structure this lecture?

The evolution lecture? For her, I just went over the three simple and
obvious facts that the theory rests upon.
1. All species produce an excess of individuals. More are born than
survive to reproduce. There are reproductive winners and losers in
every generation, no matter what species you look at.
2. All individuals inherit their body plan from their parents (or
parent).
3. This inheritance is not perfect. There are errors in the copying
process.
These three are all that are necessary for evolution to be happening.
If you want to deny evolution as a process, you have to find a way to
deny at least one of these observed facts. All the rest is details.
Then I throw in a few factiods, like:
There is a high probability that if you mapped out the DNA from your
right thumb, and from your left thumb, they would not match,
completely, since they are made of cells that have reproduced by cell
division (and DNA copying) as they grew out from the single cell that
they started with.
For this reason, apple trees occasionally produce a limb with apples
that are different from those on the other branches of the same tree.
New genetic material gets produced in a single step when some plants
double their number of chromosomes (polyploidy) producing a new
genetically isolated species with a single individual.
Then I try my best to answer any questions they ask.
I do not directly attack their religious beliefs (in a spirit of
politeness), though I make it clear that I am not a believer.
--
John Popelish
.
User: "Kate "

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 10:12:19 AM
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:02:07 GMT, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

This is my approach with door-to-door missionaries. Most of them are
quick to accept the trade, but I seldom get the follow up visit they
always promise. One female JW was quite fascinated with my account of
the theory of evolution while her companion fidgeted very nervously
and finally dragged my student out the door. Oh well.


I'm fascinated - do tell - how do you structure this lecture?


The evolution lecture? For her, I just went over the three simple and
obvious facts that the theory rests upon.

1. All species produce an excess of individuals. More are born than
survive to reproduce. There are reproductive winners and losers in
every generation, no matter what species you look at.

2. All individuals inherit their body plan from their parents (or
parent).

3. This inheritance is not perfect. There are errors in the copying
process.

These three are all that are necessary for evolution to be happening.
If you want to deny evolution as a process, you have to find a way to
deny at least one of these observed facts. All the rest is details.

Then I throw in a few factiods, like:

There is a high probability that if you mapped out the DNA from your
right thumb, and from your left thumb, they would not match,
completely, since they are made of cells that have reproduced by cell
division (and DNA copying) as they grew out from the single cell that
they started with.

For this reason, apple trees occasionally produce a limb with apples
that are different from those on the other branches of the same tree.

New genetic material gets produced in a single step when some plants
double their number of chromosomes (polyploidy) producing a new
genetically isolated species with a single individual.

Then I try my best to answer any questions they ask.

I do not directly attack their religious beliefs (in a spirit of
politeness), though I make it clear that I am not a believer.

That part was great, but what I really meant was how do you begin
without it being an attack.
.
User: "John Popelish"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 11:14:23 AM
Kate wrote:

John Popelish wrote:

(snip)

I do not directly attack their religious beliefs (in a spirit of
politeness), though I make it clear that I am not a believer.


That part was great, but what I really meant was how do you begin
without it being an attack.

I go out on the porch for the preliminaries (where they ask me what
church I attend, and if I am saved, or whatever), but if they want to
get inside and sit down, I insist that they agree, in advance to grant
me the attention they expect from me. And I always let them go
first. I try not to interrupt them (it just makes them start over)
but answer their questions honestly but tersely. If they get too long
winded, I remind them that the clock is ticking, and they owe me
whatever listening time I am giving.
I don't sell atheism or anti religion, I just talk about reality and
how it makes more sense to me than their beliefs. Astronomy and
cosmology are as good for this as biology and evolution. I have seen
one or two of them leave quite agitated, maybe even a little
frightened, like the woman I mentioned, earlier, but nobody has lost
their temper, and we have parted on respectful terms, so far. I enjoy
these discussions enough to put off going in to work to indulge.
Then I throw away the pamphlets.
--
John Popelish
.





User: "Gregory Gadow"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 08:54:46 AM
*nemo* wrote:

I got rid of one persistent person at work by using the Golden Rule. I
told him that I assume he lives by that rule, and that would imply that
if he wants me to listen to his religious views, that must mean he
expects me to give him my views. I also said that if I did try to
"deconvert" him, he might not enjoy hearing what I had to say about his
religion. So by all means, I invited him to give me his best shot... so
long as he was willing to take my best shot in return.

He hasn't said another word about religion from that point.

Aha! A tactic that I will shamelessly plagerize :-)
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
.
User: "Bill, The Avender"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 05:38:34 PM
In alt.atheism on Fri, 26 Dec 2003 06:54:46 -0800, Gregory Gadow
<techbear@serv.net> wrote:

*nemo* wrote:

I got rid of one persistent person at work by using the Golden Rule. I
told him that I assume he lives by that rule, and that would imply that
if he wants me to listen to his religious views, that must mean he
expects me to give him my views. I also said that if I did try to
"deconvert" him, he might not enjoy hearing what I had to say about his
religion. So by all means, I invited him to give me his best shot... so
long as he was willing to take my best shot in return.

He hasn't said another word about religion from that point.


Aha! A tactic that I will shamelessly plagerize :-)

I shall plagiarize it also, but with great shame.
Shame that I didn't think of it first, that is. ;-)
--
L8r,
Bill
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
The quest is never fruitless -
even when all you walk away with
are memories of the search.
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
.



User: "Liz"

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 25 Dec 2003 03:10:41 PM
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:47:54 GMT,
(Bill, The
Avender) in news message <3fed467b.15622283@newsgroups.bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Bill, you seem to get more than your share of persistent fundies.

Yesterday before leaving work, one of the nurses with whom I have to
speak frequently as part of my job asked me if I was doing anything
special for Christmas. Not wanting to get into it, I simply said,
"No."

Well, you would have thought I said, "Die, *****, die!" for the gasp
of shock which then ensued. "Well... how could you not be doing
something for Christmas?" she cooed in that patronizingly "sweet" way
of which only smarmy fundamentalists are capable.

"I'm just not," I said. Rather than take the hint that I didn't
particularly want to talk about it, she pressed further. "Fine. I'm
not a Christian. Is that better?"

I don't think the poor nosey little ***** has ever had anyone say that
to her before. She left me know in no uncertain terms that it was her
duty as a Christian to try to save me, to at least pray for me, and
what a wonderful thing "salvation" was and yadda yadda yadda yadda...
At first, I tried to be patient and civil - unlike her - and said,
"Thanks for the concern, go ahead and pray for me if you really want
to."

She must have gone on for at least ten minutes. By the time it was
over, I reiterated, in a less friendly manner, "Fine, pray for me if
you must, it's certainly better than you actually doing any sort of
'work' or other trivial little things like that. I really don't care
either way if you pray for me or not and I don't really want to talk
religion with you."

She was going to persist, but I left while she was momentarily
distracted by my cubicle neighbor.

The next time she starts, tell her that she is being terribly annoying
and that you don't appreciate her harassment.


There's a little background, here. One of our local politicians has
retired from public life and now resides as a big shot where I work.
He's also a preacher. And he holds weekly Bible studies that people
can go to over lunch. At first, it was no problem. But as word
seemed to spread that I'm not a Christian, I've been finding myself
more and more inundated with people condescendingly informing me that
I really _should_ go to some of those Bible studies, that it's for my
own good, and yadda yadda yadda...

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week. She's a Christian, but she's also very
intelligent and understands the importance of tolerating diversity in
the work place. I'm going to ask that she send an e-mail out that
clarifies the fact that religious solicitation is included with all
the other kinds of solicitation the company doesn't permit on company
grounds during company time. She probably will, she's very good about
doing stuff like that - both in the interest of fairness, and in the
interest of keeping her and the rest of the company out of court.

Absolutely, tell HR or you will never hear the end of it. Some
Christians think it is their right to make unbelievers listen to them.


I may even have to mention something about the good reverend's
incredibly annoying habit of laying Christian propaganda tracts all
through the bathrooms. They're not even up to the level of Chick
tracts, so it's not like they even have any entertainment value. Then
again, the little bonfires I make of them are kinda' "fun" in some
perverse way. Knowing that he's wasted his money and/or time on them
so I could enjoy a few seconds of flaming amusement is somewhat
gratifying. I might have to just let that one slide...

LOL I make trips to our various subsidiaries. At one of our
companies, I was walking through the lunchroom and there was a pile of
"Do You Know Jesus?" tracts on one of the tables. I picked one up,
examined it, then grabbed the whole pile and chucked them into the
garbage. The one person who was in the lunchroom, started laughing
and said, "I've always wanted to do that."

Anyway, thanks for listening. The old biddy that I first spoke about
is probably going to continue applying some pressure, as she's a
senior nurse there and therefore doesn't have to obey the rules as
much as those lower on the food chain (She has no legal right to do
this, but you know how it goes - functional rights are every bit as
useful as _real_ rights when it comes to crap like that).

Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?

That would be a bit more difficult. You'd need to find out who could
change the mission statement, then write a letter making a reasonable
request for a change. Hopefully, you will get a reply in writing and
then, depending upon the reply, you could proceed from there. It's a
place to start anyway. It defines the parameters of the problem.
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
.

User: ""

Title: Re: AA Trouble brewiing with religious co-worker 26 Dec 2003 12:14:27 AM
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:47:54 GMT,
(Bill, The
Avender) wrote:

Yesterday before leaving work, one of the nurses with whom I have to
speak frequently as part of my job asked me if I was doing anything
special for Christmas. Not wanting to get into it, I simply said,
"No."

Well, you would have thought I said, "Die, *****, die!" for the gasp
of shock which then ensued. "Well... how could you not be doing
something for Christmas?" she cooed in that patronizingly "sweet" way
of which only smarmy fundamentalists are capable.

"I'm just not," I said. Rather than take the hint that I didn't
particularly want to talk about it, she pressed further. "Fine. I'm
not a Christian. Is that better?"

I don't think the poor nosey little ***** has ever had anyone say that
to her before. She left me know in no uncertain terms that it was her
duty as a Christian to try to save me, to at least pray for me, and
what a wonderful thing "salvation" was and yadda yadda yadda yadda...
At first, I tried to be patient and civil - unlike her - and said,
"Thanks for the concern, go ahead and pray for me if you really want
to."

She must have gone on for at least ten minutes. By the time it was
over, I reiterated, in a less friendly manner, "Fine, pray for me if
you must, it's certainly better than you actually doing any sort of
'work' or other trivial little things like that. I really don't care
either way if you pray for me or not and I don't really want to talk
religion with you."

She was going to persist, but I left while she was momentarily
distracted by my cubicle neighbor.

There's a little background, here. One of our local politicians has
retired from public life and now resides as a big shot where I work.
He's also a preacher. And he holds weekly Bible studies that people
can go to over lunch. At first, it was no problem. But as word
seemed to spread that I'm not a Christian, I've been finding myself
more and more inundated with people condescendingly informing me that
I really _should_ go to some of those Bible studies, that it's for my
own good, and yadda yadda yadda...

Long story short, we have a strict anti-solicitation policy at work,
and these people are breaking it. I plan to take it up with the HR
director next week. She's a Christian, but she's also very
intelligent and understands the importance of tolerating diversity in
the work place. I'm going to ask that she send an e-mail out that
clarifies the fact that religious solicitation is included with all
the other kinds of solicitation the company doesn't permit on company
grounds during company time. She probably will, she's very good about
doing stuff like that - both in the interest of fairness, and in the
interest of keeping her and the rest of the company out of court.

I may even have to mention something about the good reverend's
incredibly annoying habit of laying Christian propaganda tracts all
through the bathrooms. They're not even up to the level of Chick
tracts, so it's not like they even have any entertainment value. Then
again, the little bonfires I make of them are kinda' "fun" in some
perverse way. Knowing that he's wasted his money and/or time on them
so I could enjoy a few seconds of flaming amusement is somewhat
gratifying. I might have to just let that one slide...

Anyway, thanks for listening. The old biddy that I first spoke about
is probably going to continue applying some pressure, as she's a
senior nurse there and therefore doesn't have to obey the rules as
much as those lower on the food chain (She has no legal right to do
this, but you know how it goes - functional rights are every bit as
useful as _real_ rights when it comes to crap like that).

Oh... Then there's our "mission statement" - the company that I work
for has as part of its mission statement that we are dedicated to
"community service and service to God". We receive government money
for our participation in the state's medicaid program (TennCare) and
medicare. Would there be any legal grounds for forcing them to remove
this from their official mission statement?

I'm no lawyer, but I work for a large corporation which reminds us of
the "Code of Conduct" annually.
It is heavy on non-discrimination based on "Race creed sex religion
national origin age" etc, not to mention proper accounting, no
harassing, threats, violence etc.
I'd ask for a copy of the code of conduct and compare it with the
standards of the government's EEO office.
I'd kindly point out that I don't condemn others because of their
personal beliefs, and I'm here to get the job done, not meddle with
the others. That should give me the right to be treated as others
would have done to them. (Yeah, I was exposed in childhood but I was
only bruised, not beaten.)
drift
.


  Page 1 of 1

1

 


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