On 14 Apr 2005 23:45:25 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1113547525.570375.198940@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:

Attila wrote:

On 14 Apr 2005 22:36:02 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1113543362.427763.156870@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:

Attila wrote:

On 14 Apr 2005 07:58:14 -0700, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>

alt.abortion with message-id
<1113490694.353275.182870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> wrote:

Attila wrote:

On 13 Apr 2005 14:52:02 -0700, "osprey"

in

alt.abortion with message-id
<1113429122.436094.184810@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

Attila wrote:

On 13 Apr 2005 05:48:13 -0700, "osprey"

<noneedtoknow@mail.com>

in

alt.abortion with message-id
<1113396493.813274.240300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>

wrote:

Attila wrote:

On 13 Apr 2005 00:03:59 -0700,

alt.abortion

with message-id

wrote:

Now Here's Clayton With The Weather wrote:

But the honest truth, simply put,

is

this:

Abortion is the killing of a human.

Abortion is no more the killing of a human than

cutting

your

fingernails is

the amputation of a limb!!!

No. Abortion is the death/killing of a very young

being.

No human being exists before live birth.

What are they puppies?

It's called a fetus.

Yea and? A toddler is called a toddler, an infant is

an

infant,

a newborn is called a newborn, a teenager is called a

teenager,

an

adult is called an adult, elderly is called elderly.

A chicken is called an egg, an oak tree is called an acorn.

Would

you

like some more?

It's still a chicken, it's still an oak tree.

So you eat scrambled chickens and build with planks from an

On second thought, you probably do.

When the egg is fertilized and the life has begun, it is a

No, it is a fertilized egg.

It is a human being with a completed DNA. There is nothing that

from the point of conception to the point of birth, other than the

is breathing differently.

part of an article Bruce Forest posted
to this newsgroup in December of 1998:

cut here 8<===============================================

Birth involves far more immediate, dramatic physiological
change in the fetus than merely where the nutrients and
oxygen come from. These profound changes are a reason that I
consider birth to be an 'initiation' to air-breathing
'personhood.' For example you mention 'method of getting
nutrition and oxygen changes because of the change in
environment' Do you have any idea of the massive changes
necessary to accomplish this? Let me just address
circulation a bit, and leave the even more profound
respiratory and digestive changes for another time... I
think you'll regard birth as even more miraculous when you
understand what an amazing physiological event it is, and
what awesome changes happen at that moment!

At birth, two major events happen that radically alter fetal
hemodynamics; (1) ligation of the umbilical cord causes a
huge, though transient rise in arterial pressure, and (2) a
rise in plasma C02 and fall in blood P02 help to initiate
regular breathing.

With the first few breaths, the intrathoracic (internal
chest cavity) pressure remains low; after distension of the
airways, assuming sufficient surfactant, the pressure
quickly rises to that of an adult..(-7 to -8 mmHg). Pressure
in the pulmonary artery falls by 50%, but pressure in the
atrium immediately doubles or even triples.

In the fetus, the high resistance of the pulmonary bed (the
capillaries that exchange oxygen in the working lung) causes
most of the deoxygenated blood in the pulmonary artery to
rush into the descending aorta via a vessel present only in
the fetus called the ductus arteriosus. At birth, the first
expansion of the lungs forces all the blood in the right
ventricle into the pulmonary artery for the first time.
Furthermore, increased systemic arterial pressure actually
reverses the flow through the ductus arteriosus! Now,
neonatal blood flows from the high-pressure aorta to the low
pressure pulmonary artery.

The massive increase in the left arterial pressure would,
before birth, result in a fatal backflow of blood into the
right heart through the patent (open) foramen ovale. (An
oval opening in the atrial septum that we all have before
birth.) However, (and this is cool..) the anatomical
configuration of the foramen is such that a valvelike fold
in the left atrial wall automatically closes the foramen
(hopefully) on the first pulse of reversed blood. That
always amazes me.

The neonatal circulation changes at birth complete with
closure of the ductus arteriosus and foramen ovale, but some
minor adjustments continue for 1-2 months, until the adult
phase begins.

Fetal circulatory adaptions that disappear at birth....

Umbilical vein...Carries oxygenated blood from placenta to
fetus

Ductus venosus...Conducts about half the blood from the
umbilical vein directly to the inferior vena cava, thus
bypassing the liver

Foramen Ovale...Conveys large proportion of blood entering -
the right atrium from the inferior vena cava, through the
atrial septum and into the left atrium, thus bypassing the
lungs

Ductus Arteriosus...Conducts some blood from the pulmonary
artery to the aorta, thus bypassing the lungs

Umbilical arteries...Carry blood from the internal iliac
arteries to the placenta for reoxygenation

Immediately following birth, the umbilical vessels
constrict. The arteries close first, and if the umbilical
cord is not clamped or severed for a minute or so, blood
continues to flow from the placenta to the newborn through
the umbilical vein, adding to the newborn's blood volume.

The proximal portions of the umbilical arteries persist in
the adult as the superior vesical arteries that supply blood
to the urinary bladder. The more distal portions become
solid cords (lateral umbilical ligaments.) The umbilical
vein becomes the cordlike ligamentum teres that extends from
the umbilicus to the liver in an adult. Similarly, the
ductus venosus constricts shortly after birth and is
represented in the adult as a fibrous cord (ligamentum
venosum), which is superficially embedded in the wall of the
liver.

So, to summarize, the hemodynamics of the immediate newborn
and term fetus differ in these major ways, and many more
minor ones...ALL abruptly changing at the moment of birth:
(1) arterial and venous blood no longer mix in the atria;
(2)the vena cava now carries only deoxygenated blood into
the right atrium, where it goes into the right ventricle,
and then is pumped to the pulmonary arteries, and finally to
the pulmonary capillary bed , and ; (3) the aorta now
carries only oxygenated blood from the left heart via the
pulmonary veins for distribution to the rest of the body.
The 'pipework' is still mostly there, but what enormous
changes have taken place in a few short seconds!

So, I'd appreciate if we didn't say that the immediate
newborn and term fetus are almost identical, because they
just aren't. The digestive changes alone would be ten times
the length of this very basic circulatory primer, and the
respiratory chemistry changes at the instant of birth could
fill a book.

cut here 8<================================================

He listed as sources:

_Gray's Anatomy_ 15th Edition; 1995

_Human Anatomy and Physiology_, Second Edition, John W. Hole
jr. 1988 Wm C. Brown Co.

_Current Obstetric and Gynecologic Diagnosis and Treatment_
8th Ed, DeCherney, Pernoll 1994


Posted by Pat Winstanley <ng_wisy@yahoo.co.uk>

When it hatches it is a chicken.

When the acorn is fertilized and has begun the process of a new

tree,

it is an oak tree.

When it sprouts it is a tree, until then it is an acorn. That's

it is called an acorn.

An acorn is a unfertilized seed. Simple as that. It is the fruit of
the oak.

No, an acorn is fertilized. Plant it and it will grow a tree.

When the sperm and the egg have combined, the process of

has

begun, we have a new human being, also referred to as the zygote.

No human being exists until live birth.

Denial is your middle name.

Is that the best you can do?

Those terms are all descriptive terms applying to a person

after

birth.

Nope, and I have already in another post provided medical

testimony

that the fetus is a human being.

But all the medical testimony in the world simply does not

because it is a legal issue not settled by a scientific

I provided a legitimate source, you provided nothing.

You lose

I was not aware it was a contest.

It isn't, but you can't provide support..I can for my position.

The law is unchanged.

The law doesn't determine this.

Yes, it does.

Do you have medical testimony on the metallic content of a

It

would be about as valid.

What does that have to do with them being a human being?

The only things that have to do with human beings is the

species

human. being born, and being alive.

So is the fetus a puppy?

No, it's a human fetus.

Nope, according to Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D, you are

Myth 3: "The immediate product of fertilization is just a

'potential'

or a 'possible' human being - not a real existing human

Fact 3: As demonstrated above, scientifically there is

no

question whatsoever that the immediate product of

is a

newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being.

is

not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It's an actual

human

being - with the potential to grow bigger and develop its

capacities.

Of course since the question is not settled scientifically none

that matters does it?

Me = provided source

Irrelevant, since it is not a scientific question.

I note that you will ignore anything that goes against your

even if it has high credentials.

Irrelevant.

You = provided nothing

You lose

I am not in a contest.

Never said it was, but if this was a debate you would have lost.

A puppy is a dog that has been born alive,

while a dog fetus is not yet a puppy.

Can you find any medical reference that will say a fetus

not a

human

being?

Irrelevant.

You lose then.

No, because the status of human being is not subject to

definition.

You have absolutley NO sources to support your argument, you

lost.

But the law is on my side. I am satisfied

The law does not decide, society basically does and science has

that the fetus is a human being.

No, the decision of society is reflected in it's laws, and those

require live birth.

No, laws determine personhood.

Same thing. A human being is a person.

I have provided you the source in
which a medical professional, medicine is a science, has stated

fetus is a human being and why.

Irrelevant.

Because you don't like it.

No, it is not a medical question.

There are people on both sides that write these books and

word them appropriately.

Show me a medical professional that will say the fetus is

a

human

being.

You can't.

I can find plenty that do not say that it is.

You haven't even found one.

You lost

Irrelevant. The law is the same.

You lose

The law is still the same.

Nope, you are confused.