| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
11 Aug 2007 07:16:18 PM |
| Object: |
Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1879410/posts
New Book, "Freedomnomics" says Abortion Increases Crime Rate
LifeSiteNews ^ | 8/10/07 | Hilary White
Posted on 08/10/2007 12:37:58 PM PDT by wagglebee
WASHINGTON, August 10, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A book published in
June by a leading US economist in part responds to previous and oft-
quoted claims that abortion has been a significant factor in lowering
the U.S. crime rate. The book by John R. Lott of the American
Enterprise Institute, "Freedomnomics," answers claims by liberal
economist Steven Levitt that abortion, in reducing the number of
"unwanted" children, has eliminated significant numbers of the kind of
people who commit crimes.
Lott's 2001 study, "Abortion and Crime: Unwanted Children and Out-of-
Wedlock Births" concluded that legalized abortion has in fact
increased the overall violent crime rate.
"We find evidence that legalizing abortion increased murder rates by
around about 0.5 to 7 percent... Others note that the legalizing of
abortion might contribute to a coarsening of society that might itself
lead to more crime."
"Freedomnomics," is being called a conservative response to the
publication of a manifesto of liberal political and economic theory by
University of Chicago economist Steven Levitt and New York Times
journalist Stephen J. Dubner, which topped the 2005 New York Times
bestseller list.
"Freakonomics," claimed that "legalized abortion may account for as
much as one-half of the overall crime reduction" during the 1990s.
This claim was seized upon by abortion advocates, notably Dr. Henry
Morgentaler, Canada's most notorious abortionist, who claimed it was
proof that vindicated their claims and support for abortion on
demand.
The conclusion that abortion actually tends to increase crime rates
coincides with a study published earlier this year. That study
examined data on 237 low-income women in Baltimore and showed a
statistical correlation between abortion and incidents of child abuse.
Published in March in the Internet Journal of Pediatrics and
Neonatology, the study a showed history of abortion is associated with
more frequent acts of physical aggression toward subsequent children.
Read the study "Abortion and Crime: Unwanted Children and Out-of-
Wedlock Births" online:
http://lsr.nellco.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&c...
Read related LifeSiteNews.com coverage:
Abortion Linked to Higher Rates of Child Abuse, Study Finds
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07031301.html
Media Ignoring Study Saying Abortion Increases Crime
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2001/sep/01091005.html
Study Linking Abortion and Lower Crime Rates Published
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2001/may/01051702.html
Experts Debunk Donohue/Levitt Study Connecting Abortion and Crime
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2001/may/01053005.html
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
12 Aug 2007 02:55:19 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:
New Book, "Freedomnomics" says Abortion Increases
Crime Rate
Another book says that Santa Claus will be visiting your
home next Christmas Eve...
Anyway, the fact that a conservative (Read: Anti-Abortion)
"Think Tank" would come out with a book that slams
abortion is hardly newsworthy.
In fact, you condemn your own position by making such a
big deal out of it...
"One of our own agrees with us!!!!!!!"
You're clearly scaping the bottom of the barrel here. Your
position is so bankrupt that you litterally have nothing to
say to people. You're left with nothing else but quoting
each other and pretending that it's somehow "News."
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
12 Aug 2007 09:41:51 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:
New Book, "Freedomnomics" says Abortion Increases
Crime Rate
Another book says that Santa Claus will be visiting your
home next Christmas Eve...
Anyway, the fact that a conservative (Read: Anti-Abortion)
"Think Tank" would come out with a book that slams
abortion is hardly newsworthy.
Guess what else the AEI thinks? They think the scientific consensus on
climate change is a global conspiracy to handcuff American business.
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| User: "Steve" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
12 Aug 2007 12:02:45 PM |
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"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Y4ydnT12iPetgSLbnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@giganews.com...
JTEM wrote:
Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@mailcan.com> wrote:
New Book, "Freedomnomics" says Abortion Increases
Crime Rate
Another book says that Santa Claus will be visiting your
home next Christmas Eve...
Anyway, the fact that a conservative (Read: Anti-Abortion)
"Think Tank" would come out with a book that slams
abortion is hardly newsworthy.
Guess what else the AEI thinks? They think the scientific consensus on
climate change is a global conspiracy to handcuff American business.
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come out
against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to date:
http://www.oism.org/pproject
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
than have ever put their name on anything in favor of it. Not surprising
since science tells us sea levels were about 250' higher and the climate
much warmer in the past when man did not even exist, than they are today. If
not for so called 'global warming' we would still be locked in the last ice
age. It must have been Wooly Mamoth farts that ended it because man sure
didn't.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
12 Aug 2007 11:21:34 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come out
against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
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| User: "Scout" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
13 Aug 2007 04:37:01 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come out
against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
And speaking of reality......what involvement do you think man has in this
stellar event?
I mean you are aware of the changing solar cycle and increase solar flux. I
mean clearly it must be mankind's fault since we are in control of the
sun.........
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| User: "Steve" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
14 Aug 2007 11:32:25 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come out
against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
The reality is that temperatures were far warmer and sea levels far higher
long before man ever existed. The reality is that if not for 'global
warming' the last ice age would never have ended. The reality is that CO2
which man only produces a small fraction of anyway plays a tiny role in the
greenhouse effect compared to plain old water vapor, which man produces
almost none of.
http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
14 Aug 2007 10:44:08 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:32:25 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come out
against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
The reality is that temperatures were far warmer and sea levels far higher
long before man ever existed.
Which is pretty irrelevant to whether man's activities are raising
global temperatures now. When Gondwanaland was the main land mass we
had free flow at the poles.
The reality is that if not for 'global
warming' the last ice age would never have ended.
Why not? The 9 before it did. (You think Wurm III was the only ice
age?)
The reality is that CO2
which man only produces a small fraction of anyway plays a tiny role in the
greenhouse effect compared to plain old water vapor, which man produces
almost none of.
And the land man puts blacktop on (boy, is that a heat sink) is only a
small part of the land surface. And the aerosols man puts into the
atmosphere is only a small part of the atmosphere. And methane the
domestic ruminants man raises is only a small part of the atmosphere.
But add it all together - and realize that a FIVE DEGREE rise in
temperature would be catastrophic to mankind and, if you're not
scared, you don't understand the problem.
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| User: "brique" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
14 Aug 2007 11:59:38 PM |
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Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:3ct4c3diaq618bfqtvae92mtgmk0eh62h9@4ax.com...
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:32:25 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come
out
against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
The reality is that temperatures were far warmer and sea levels far
higher
long before man ever existed.
Which is pretty irrelevant to whether man's activities are raising
global temperatures now. When Gondwanaland was the main land mass we
had free flow at the poles.
The reality is that if not for 'global
warming' the last ice age would never have ended.
Why not? The 9 before it did. (You think Wurm III was the only ice
age?)
The reality is that CO2
which man only produces a small fraction of anyway plays a tiny role in
the
greenhouse effect compared to plain old water vapor, which man produces
almost none of.
And the land man puts blacktop on (boy, is that a heat sink) is only a
small part of the land surface. And the aerosols man puts into the
atmosphere is only a small part of the atmosphere. And methane the
domestic ruminants man raises is only a small part of the atmosphere.
But add it all together - and realize that a FIVE DEGREE rise in
temperature would be catastrophic to mankind and, if you're not
scared, you don't understand the problem.
You have to bear in mind that an ice age for these guys is just a chance to
ski four times a year and put snow-chains on the SUV....
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
15 Aug 2007 01:20:51 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:59:38 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
You have to bear in mind that an ice age for these guys is just a chance to
ski four times a year and put snow-chains on the SUV....
I guess those who don't know anything about a subject tend to make the
most assertions about it. Most of the noise I hear comes from people
who aren't aware that there have been about 10 ice ages in the last
million years (which is about when the poles became blocked, and I
agree with that theory, although I don't have enough formal training
to be considered an expert on the subject).
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| User: "Scout" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
15 Aug 2007 05:47:14 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2sg6c3pipflpo66bteqvhaaa83og5jepft@4ax.com...
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:59:38 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
You have to bear in mind that an ice age for these guys is just a chance
to
ski four times a year and put snow-chains on the SUV....
I guess those who don't know anything about a subject tend to make the
most assertions about it. Most of the noise I hear comes from people
who aren't aware that there have been about 10 ice ages in the last
million years (which is about when the poles became blocked, and I
agree with that theory, although I don't have enough formal training
to be considered an expert on the subject).
Yep, and if man is the cause of climatic events then why did the temperature
peak between 800-1300 AD only to lower during 1400-1850. I mean with human
impact on the environment increasing, the temperature should have
increased....not declined if what is being said is true.
I mean heck when Greenland was discovered in the 9th century it really was
green and suitable for cultivation. How much global warming is it going to
take before Greenland is once again green?
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
15 Aug 2007 07:21:17 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:47:14 GMT, "Scout"
<me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
Yep, and if man is the cause of climatic events then why did the temperature
peak between 800-1300 AD only to lower during 1400-1850.
Well ... that's difficult to answer, since you have the Little Ice Age
right in your peak. I mean, how can I tell you why something happened
if it didn't happen?
And you're still confusing "man is the sole cause of global warming"
with "man is contributing to global warming".
I mean heck when Greenland was discovered in the 9th century it really was
green and suitable for cultivation. How much global warming is it going to
take before Greenland is once again green?
You haven't seen the latest figures on the Greenland glacier?
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
16 Aug 2007 08:39:08 PM |
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Scout wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2sg6c3pipflpo66bteqvhaaa83og5jepft@4ax.com...
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:59:38 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
You have to bear in mind that an ice age for these guys is just a
chance to
ski four times a year and put snow-chains on the SUV....
I guess those who don't know anything about a subject tend to make
the most assertions about it. Most of the noise I hear comes from
people who aren't aware that there have been about 10 ice ages in
the last million years (which is about when the poles became
blocked, and I agree with that theory, although I don't have enough
formal training to be considered an expert on the subject).
Yep, and if man is the cause of climatic events then why did the
temperature peak between 800-1300 AD only to lower during 1400-1850.
I mean with human impact on the environment increasing, the
temperature should have increased....not declined if what is being
said is true.
I mean heck when Greenland was discovered
Well, technically the term should be "rediscovered".
in the 9th century it
really was green and suitable for cultivation.
Only around the southern fjords and only for a few miles inland, like today
only slightly more extensive. The rest was much as it is today...an ice
sheet.
How much global
warming is it going to take before Greenland is once again green?
The Greenland Ice Sheet is shrinking already. In fact, a new island
discovered in 2005 off the coast of northern Greenland, once below ice, is
now exposed. Guess what they called it: Warming Island.
Look here for some pretty stark photographs:
http://landsat.usgs.gov/gallery/detail/441/
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| User: "Bama Brian" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
17 Aug 2007 11:10:09 AM |
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On Thu, 2007-08-16 at 21:39 -0400, Geoff wrote:
Scout wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2sg6c3pipflpo66bteqvhaaa83og5jepft@4ax.com...
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:59:38 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
You have to bear in mind that an ice age for these guys is just a
chance to
ski four times a year and put snow-chains on the SUV....
I guess those who don't know anything about a subject tend to make
the most assertions about it. Most of the noise I hear comes from
people who aren't aware that there have been about 10 ice ages in
the last million years (which is about when the poles became
blocked, and I agree with that theory, although I don't have enough
formal training to be considered an expert on the subject).
Yep, and if man is the cause of climatic events then why did the
temperature peak between 800-1300 AD only to lower during 1400-1850.
I mean with human impact on the environment increasing, the
temperature should have increased....not declined if what is being
said is true.
I mean heck when Greenland was discovered
Well, technically the term should be "rediscovered".
in the 9th century it
really was green and suitable for cultivation.
Only around the southern fjords and only for a few miles inland, like today
only slightly more extensive. The rest was much as it is today...an ice
sheet.
How much global
warming is it going to take before Greenland is once again green?
The Greenland Ice Sheet is shrinking already. In fact, a new island
discovered in 2005 off the coast of northern Greenland, once below ice, is
now exposed. Guess what they called it: Warming Island.
Look here for some pretty stark photographs:
http://landsat.usgs.gov/gallery/detail/441/
If enough of the ice sheet shrinks, maybe the Vikings will come back and
recolonize the place, just as they had done during the Medieval Warm
Period.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
15 Aug 2007 08:16:10 AM |
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Steve wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net>
wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come
out against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to
date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
The reality is that temperatures were far warmer and sea levels far
higher long before man ever existed.
So? Is that some sort of consolation? The point, my friend, is that we need
an ecosystem that can sustain a global population of humans in the billions.
The reality is that if not for
'global warming' the last ice age would never have ended.
What an insight! So in a million years, intelligent sand flies will be
saying: "If not for the global warming a million years ago, global
desertification would never have happened."
The reality
is that CO2
The reality is that CO2 is only one small part of the climate change
equation.
which man only produces a small fraction of anyway
And that fraction has increased by several orders of magnitude since 1800.
plays
a tiny role in the greenhouse effect compared to plain old water
vapor, which man produces almost none of.
True, water vapor accounts for between 30-50% of the greenhouse effect. The
problem is that additional effects are being added on top of the baseline.
If you have trouble comprehending how this works, wear a sweater this
weekend when you mow your lawn.
.
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| User: "Steve" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
17 Aug 2007 02:34:17 PM |
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"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hrKdnSQnStoGYV_bnZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@giganews.com...
Steve wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net>
wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come
out against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to
date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
The reality is that temperatures were far warmer and sea levels far
higher long before man ever existed.
So? Is that some sort of consolation? The point, my friend, is that we
need
an ecosystem that can sustain a global population of humans in the
billions.
The reality is that if not for
'global warming' the last ice age would never have ended.
What an insight! So in a million years, intelligent sand flies will be
saying: "If not for the global warming a million years ago, global
desertification would never have happened."
The last true ice age began to end about 13,000 years ago. Not 1,000,000.
And since man couldn't have possibly effected anything on a global scale
13,000 years ago just what is it that you suppose caused the global warming
that ended it? Hmmm? Any answer? Since global warming clearly predates man
why do you assume that man causes global warming?
The reality
is that CO2
The reality is that CO2 is only one small part of the climate change
equation.
C02 is only one small part of the greenhouse effect and an even smaller
component of overall climate change, which is the point. And since man
produces far more CO2 than any other greenhouse gas you really aren't
helping your argument. If you want to blame man for global warming CO2 is
the basket all your eggs are in and they just broke.
which man only produces a small fraction of anyway
And that fraction has increased by several orders of magnitude since 1800.
And the temperature in the same time period has increased a whopping 1 to
1.5 degrees depending on which alarmists statistics you choose to look at.
Meanwhile we know from the fossil record that sea levels have been well over
200' higher in the past and the ice caps almost non-existent compared to
what they are now so absent mans ability to cause that what did, and how do
you know that the natural cycle is not just repeating itself as it has many
time before?
plays
a tiny role in the greenhouse effect compared to plain old water
vapor, which man produces almost none of.
True, water vapor accounts for between 30-50% of the greenhouse effect.
The
problem is that additional effects are being added on top of the baseline.
If you have trouble comprehending how this works, wear a sweater this
weekend when you mow your lawn.
One has nothing to do with the other. The fact is that man produces only
about 5% of the CO2 which plays a TINY role in the greenhouse effect. A
better analogy would be a 5 gallon bucket half full and you claiming that
adding an eye dropper of water is going to overflow the bucket because
that's how much effect man has. Blaming man for global warming completely
ignores the fact that ice has melted and sea levels have risen hundreds of
feet higher than they now are many times throughout geological history
before man could have had anything to do with it. Something melted all that
ice and it wasn't man. You think the cycle is just supposed to magically
stop because man appears on the planet? Sorry. Doesn't work that way. Sea
levels will rise again and given enough time NYC and other costal areas will
be under water yet again and their isn't one damn thing you can do about it.
Then that cycle will reverse, the earth will cool and if man isn't extinct
by then some alarmist will be going on about how something man did caused
seas to dry up and a new ice age to begin. The sky is falling. The sky is
falling.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
17 Aug 2007 08:33:56 PM |
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On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:34:17 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hrKdnSQnStoGYV_bnZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@giganews.com...
Steve wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net>
wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come
out against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to
date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
The reality is that temperatures were far warmer and sea levels far
higher long before man ever existed.
So? Is that some sort of consolation? The point, my friend, is that we
need
an ecosystem that can sustain a global population of humans in the
billions.
The reality is that if not for
'global warming' the last ice age would never have ended.
What an insight! So in a million years, intelligent sand flies will be
saying: "If not for the global warming a million years ago, global
desertification would never have happened."
The last true ice age began to end about 13,000 years ago. Not 1,000,000.
And since man couldn't have possibly effected anything on a global scale
13,000 years ago
Wanna bet? We started causing enough heat and enough CO2 emission and
enough heat long before that to influence the global temperature, at
least a little. Around 8,000 years ago we started influencing the
methane levels too.
just what is it that you suppose caused the global warming
that ended it? Hmmm? Any answer? Since global warming clearly predates man
why do you assume that man causes global warming?
If we add just enough to the normal warming trend to cause runaway,
we're the cause of runaway. And it doesn't take much to tip the
balance. 0.1 degree C at the right time, and it tips.
C02 is only one small part of the greenhouse effect and an even smaller
component of overall climate change, which is the point. And since man
produces far more CO2 than any other greenhouse gas you really aren't
helping your argument. If you want to blame man for global warming CO2 is
the basket all your eggs are in and they just broke.
Man also produces, or causes to be produced, a large percentage of the
methane in the atmosphere,
which man only produces a small fraction of anyway
And that fraction has increased by several orders of magnitude since 1800.
And the temperature in the same time period has increased a whopping 1 to
1.5 degrees depending on which alarmists statistics you choose to look at.
Which was good enough that the highest monthly temperatures for all 12
months occurred in the last decade. The Arctic summer ice is ALREADY
at the smallest coverage since we've been keeping track of it, and we
have another month of shrinking ahead of us. The average temperature
since 1987 has consistently been above the 1880-2004 mean.
All are indications that the average temperature is climbing steadily.
Meanwhile we know from the fossil record that sea levels have been well over
200' higher in the past and the ice caps almost non-existent compared to
what they are now so absent mans ability to cause that what did,
There were no ice caps prior to 1 million years ago, because both
poles were open ocean, not only because of the average temperature.
and how do you know that the natural cycle is not just repeating itself
The poles are now landlocked (north) or land (south), and have been
for about a million years.
plays
a tiny role in the greenhouse effect compared to plain old water
vapor, which man produces almost none of.
True, water vapor accounts for between 30-50% of the greenhouse effect. The
problem is that additional effects are being added on top of the baseline.
If you have trouble comprehending how this works, wear a sweater this
weekend when you mow your lawn.
One has nothing to do with the other.
The above point is that, with no additional heating, if you keep the
heat from escaping, the temperature goes up.
The fact is that man produces only
about 5% of the CO2 which plays a TINY role in the greenhouse effect.
Enough of a role to cause thermal runaway? We don't know, but if it
does, it'll be too late to reverse it by the time we have proof.
A better analogy would be a 5 gallon bucket half full and you claiming that
adding an eye dropper of water is going to overflow the bucket because
that's how much effect man has.
An even better analogy is a tiny hole in the bucket that, once water
flows through the hole - any amount of water - the bottom of the
bucket drops out. Are you willing to bet the planet on your claim
that the one drop ISN'T the one that'll cause some water to flow
through the hole?
Once we reach the tip point, it takes technology that we don't have,
and can't develop (because we still don't have the vaguest clue what
it might be) to reverse the trend.
Blaming man for global warming completely
ignores the fact that ice has melted and sea levels have risen hundreds of
feet higher than they now are many times throughout geological history
before man could have had anything to do with it. Something melted all that
ice and it wasn't man.
Keep walking through a bad neighborhood waving thousand dollar bills
around and claiming that, if you get held up, it wasn't your fault. If
the mugger puts a bullet through your head, you're dead, regardless of
whose fault it was.
Since you don't own the planet, you don't have the right to wager with
the lives of other people.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Scout" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
18 Aug 2007 06:33:15 AM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:63icc31jh26lucn4l79ll1okjq5lke5l5g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:34:17 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hrKdnSQnStoGYV_bnZ2dnUVZ_remnZ2d@giganews.com...
Steve wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:32nvb3perh2mmf2p4kl2ur60ul59ea5751@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:02:45 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net>
wrote:
There is no scientific consensus on global warming. More have come
out against the idea of man caused global warming, about 17000 to
date:
Reality is not a popularity poll.
The reality is that temperatures were far warmer and sea levels far
higher long before man ever existed.
So? Is that some sort of consolation? The point, my friend, is that we
need
an ecosystem that can sustain a global population of humans in the
billions.
The reality is that if not for
'global warming' the last ice age would never have ended.
What an insight! So in a million years, intelligent sand flies will be
saying: "If not for the global warming a million years ago, global
desertification would never have happened."
The last true ice age began to end about 13,000 years ago. Not 1,000,000.
And since man couldn't have possibly effected anything on a global scale
13,000 years ago
Wanna bet? We started causing enough heat and enough CO2 emission and
enough heat long before that to influence the global temperature, at
least a little. Around 8,000 years ago we started influencing the
methane levels too.
just what is it that you suppose caused the global warming
that ended it? Hmmm? Any answer? Since global warming clearly predates man
why do you assume that man causes global warming?
If we add just enough to the normal warming trend to cause runaway,
we're the cause of runaway. And it doesn't take much to tip the
balance. 0.1 degree C at the right time, and it tips.
And if we did not, then we are not the cause.
That I believe is the point of contention.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
18 Aug 2007 02:02:08 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:33:15 GMT, "Scout"
<me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:63icc31jh26lucn4l79ll1okjq5lke5l5g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:34:17 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
just what is it that you suppose caused the global warming
that ended it? Hmmm? Any answer? Since global warming clearly predates man
why do you assume that man causes global warming?
If we add just enough to the normal warming trend to cause runaway,
we're the cause of runaway. And it doesn't take much to tip the
balance. 0.1 degree C at the right time, and it tips.
And if we did not, then we are not the cause.
That I believe is the point of contention.
One slight fly in the ointment. By the time we figure out whether
we're the cause or not it'll be too late to apply the cure. (The ONLY
cure we know of at this time is eliminating some of the causes -
mainly greenhouse gasses and decreased albedo. We CAN'T, with current
knowledge, decrease input,)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Scout" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
18 Aug 2007 04:36:41 PM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:qdgec3h6v9fuj4mevgmg3moe0u1e3qlq5b@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:33:15 GMT, "Scout"
<me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:63icc31jh26lucn4l79ll1okjq5lke5l5g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:34:17 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
just what is it that you suppose caused the global warming
that ended it? Hmmm? Any answer? Since global warming clearly predates
man
why do you assume that man causes global warming?
If we add just enough to the normal warming trend to cause runaway,
we're the cause of runaway. And it doesn't take much to tip the
balance. 0.1 degree C at the right time, and it tips.
And if we did not, then we are not the cause.
That I believe is the point of contention.
One slight fly in the ointment. By the time we figure out whether
we're the cause or not it'll be too late to apply the cure.
Excuse me, but if the cure doesn't address the cause, then you're just
wasting your time, effort and money. Seems to me that before you start
blaming everyone and demanding they change everything it might be a good
idea to find out if that is really the cause and the solution.
(The ONLY
cure we know of at this time is eliminating some of the causes -
mainly greenhouse gasses and decreased albedo. We CAN'T, with current
knowledge, decrease input,)
Actually, we can. A simple matter of positioning large solar sails between
the Earth and the sun.
Seems to me you are putting the course before the horse by calling for a
solution when you don't even know the cause.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
18 Aug 2007 07:55:51 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 21:36:41 GMT, "Scout"
<me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:qdgec3h6v9fuj4mevgmg3moe0u1e3qlq5b@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:33:15 GMT, "Scout"
<me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:63icc31jh26lucn4l79ll1okjq5lke5l5g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:34:17 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
just what is it that you suppose caused the global warming
that ended it? Hmmm? Any answer? Since global warming clearly predates
man
why do you assume that man causes global warming?
If we add just enough to the normal warming trend to cause runaway,
we're the cause of runaway. And it doesn't take much to tip the
balance. 0.1 degree C at the right time, and it tips.
And if we did not, then we are not the cause.
That I believe is the point of contention.
One slight fly in the ointment. By the time we figure out whether
we're the cause or not it'll be too late to apply the cure.
Excuse me, but if the cure doesn't address the cause
The cause is less heat escaping than is entering. Why that's changed
is not as important as making a change to put the numbers back where
they were. If the cause is more CO2 venting from underground, and we
cut down on the amount we produce, the total amount is still cut.
Seems to me that before you start
blaming everyone and demanding they change everything it might be a good
idea to find out if that is really the cause and the solution.
If we increase the amount of heat vented to space, the increase in
temperature will go down, regardless of what caused it to go up. It's
really a simple equation - if the hear coming in equals the heat
leaving, the temperature stays the same.
(The ONLY
cure we know of at this time is eliminating some of the causes -
mainly greenhouse gasses and decreased albedo. We CAN'T, with current
knowledge, decrease input,)
Actually, we can. A simple matter of positioning large solar sails between
the Earth and the sun.
They'll radiate heat. Guess in which direction. (ALL objects have an
equilibrium point.)
Seems to me you are putting the course before the horse by calling for a
solution when you don't even know the cause.
The solution is to make sure that insolation and radiation are equal.
The details can be worked out among methods we know how to implement.
However, models including natural+anthropogenic forcing (which show an
almost perfect correlation to measured data over the last 150 years)
show that changing any of the factors (greenhouse gases, aerosols,
albedo, insolation or other agents) would change the amount of
temperature rise. If we can't change one of them, but we can change
another one, we change the ones we CAN change, regardless of the
cause. The result is the same.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
19 Aug 2007 04:07:18 AM |
|
|
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:5n4fc3p6o849cvargh27cosclkcbhsc6jg@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 21:36:41 GMT, "Scout"
<me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:qdgec3h6v9fuj4mevgmg3moe0u1e3qlq5b@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:33:15 GMT, "Scout"
<me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:63icc31jh26lucn4l79ll1okjq5lke5l5g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:34:17 -0400, "Steve" <steve@nospam.net> wrote:
just what is it that you suppose caused the global warming
that ended it? Hmmm? Any answer? Since global warming clearly
predates
man
why do you assume that man causes global warming?
If we add just enough to the normal warming trend to cause runaway,
we're the cause of runaway. And it doesn't take much to tip the
balance. 0.1 degree C at the right time, and it tips.
And if we did not, then we are not the cause.
That I believe is the point of contention.
One slight fly in the ointment. By the time we figure out whether
we're the cause or not it'll be too late to apply the cure.
Excuse me, but if the cure doesn't address the cause
The cause is less heat escaping than is entering. Why that's changed
is not as important as making a change to put the numbers back where
they were. If the cause is more CO2 venting from underground, and we
cut down on the amount we produce, the total amount is still cut.
Seems to me that before you start
blaming everyone and demanding they change everything it might be a good
idea to find out if that is really the cause and the solution.
If we increase the amount of heat vented to space, the increase in
temperature will go down, regardless of what caused it to go up. It's
really a simple equation - if the hear coming in equals the heat
leaving, the temperature stays the same.
(The ONLY
cure we know of at this time is eliminating some of the causes -
mainly greenhouse gasses and decreased albedo. We CAN'T, with current
knowledge, decrease input,)
Actually, we can. A simple matter of positioning large solar sails
between
the Earth and the sun.
They'll radiate heat. Guess in which direction. (ALL objects have an
equilibrium point.)
Seems to me you are putting the course before the horse by calling for a
solution when you don't even know the cause.
The solution is to make sure that insolation and radiation are equal.
The details can be worked out among methods we know how to implement.
However, models including natural+anthropogenic forcing (which show an
almost perfect correlation to measured data over the last 150 years)
show that changing any of the factors (greenhouse gases, aerosols,
albedo, insolation or other agents) would change the amount of
temperature rise. If we can't change one of them, but we can change
another one, we change the ones we CAN change, regardless of the
cause. The result is the same.
Isn't it all rather : 'the floods are coming over the levees but _I_ didn't
spit in the ocean so it's nothing to do with me!'? Maybe that's why they
seem to have let New Orleans drown, after all, until some-one can prove
conclusively how and why hurricanes start and accurately predict their
inception, velocity, duration and course then there is nothing to be done,
is there?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
19 Aug 2007 01:50:03 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:07:18 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:5n4fc3p6o849cvargh27cosclkcbhsc6jg@4ax.com...
The solution is to make sure that insolation and radiation are equal.
The details can be worked out among methods we know how to implement.
However, models including natural+anthropogenic forcing (which show an
almost perfect correlation to measured data over the last 150 years)
show that changing any of the factors (greenhouse gases, aerosols,
albedo, insolation or other agents) would change the amount of
temperature rise. If we can't change one of them, but we can change
another one, we change the ones we CAN change, regardless of the
cause. The result is the same.
Isn't it all rather : 'the floods are coming over the levees but _I_ didn't
spit in the ocean so it's nothing to do with me!'? Maybe that's why they
seem to have let New Orleans drown, after all, until some-one can prove
conclusively how and why hurricanes start and accurately predict their
inception, velocity, duration and course then there is nothing to be done,
is there?
Pretty much. "Let's not act until we have all the facts" - which
we'll never have. They can always find one more little thing we're
not absolutely certain of.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
19 Aug 2007 07:01:00 PM |
|
|
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:b44hc31tjl6aebtqdr4gtu45rus557dkmd@4ax.com...
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:07:18 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:5n4fc3p6o849cvargh27cosclkcbhsc6jg@4ax.com...
The solution is to make sure that insolation and radiation are equal.
The details can be worked out among methods we know how to implement.
However, models including natural+anthropogenic forcing (which show an
almost perfect correlation to measured data over the last 150 years)
show that changing any of the factors (greenhouse gases, aerosols,
albedo, insolation or other agents) would change the amount of
temperature rise. If we can't change one of them, but we can change
another one, we change the ones we CAN change, regardless of the
cause. The result is the same.
Isn't it all rather : 'the floods are coming over the levees but _I_
didn't
spit in the ocean so it's nothing to do with me!'? Maybe that's why they
seem to have let New Orleans drown, after all, until some-one can prove
conclusively how and why hurricanes start and accurately predict their
inception, velocity, duration and course then there is nothing to be
done,
is there?
Pretty much. "Let's not act until we have all the facts" - which
we'll never have. They can always find one more little thing we're
not absolutely certain of.
It certainly seems to be the way that climate change is being handled in the
US, a whole series of 'obstacles' put up to defer making any decision ( as
we don't yet have all the facts) and as each are dismantled by yet more
scientific evidence, why, yet another appears to further delay action (okay,
so maybe the globe _is_ getting warmer but we don't know why so we can't do
anything.... okay, maybe greenhouse gases _might_ be responsible but cows
fart too.....okay, maybe the ice caps are melting but that might be a
natural cycle.... okay, so _maybe_ they are melting way too fast for it to
be a natural cycle but maybe the sun is getting hotter...okay, it aint the
sun getting hotter but maybe.. and so on and so on...).
What may strike future historians as odd (assuming there will be any) is
that such concern for having all the 'facts' before acting and ensuring the
absolute accuracy of those facts is highly unusual political behaviour, not
just for this administration but, in general, for most every administration
in most every place.
Still, no doubt as the sea laps gently at the door of the White House some
one will wonder if it is the Atlantic or the Pacific and thus demand more
time to study the 'facts' before any action need be taken....
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
19 Aug 2007 10:33:56 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 01:01:00 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
It certainly seems to be the way that climate change is being handled in the
US, a whole series of 'obstacles' put up to defer making any decision ( as
we don't yet have all the facts) and as each are dismantled by yet more
scientific evidence, why, yet another appears to further delay action (okay,
so maybe the globe _is_ getting warmer but we don't know why so we can't do
anything.... okay, maybe greenhouse gases _might_ be responsible but cows
fart too.....okay, maybe the ice caps are melting but that might be a
natural cycle.... okay, so _maybe_ they are melting way too fast for it to
be a natural cycle but maybe the sun is getting hotter...okay, it aint the
sun getting hotter but maybe.. and so on and so on...).
What may strike future historians as odd (assuming there will be any) is
that such concern for having all the 'facts' before acting and ensuring the
absolute accuracy of those facts is highly unusual political behaviour, not
just for this administration but, in general, for most every administration
in most every place.
If it's a question of the administration doing something it wants,
it's "full speed ahead and damn the facts we don't have." If it's a
question of the administration doing something it doesn't want to do,
it's "full brakes and let's get the facts before we do anything."
Business as usual.
Still, no doubt as the sea laps gently at the door of the White House some
one will wonder if it is the Atlantic or the Pacific and thus demand more
time to study the 'facts' before any action need be taken....
There was a SciFi show on TV years ago. It was a generation ship,
with many pods off the main body, a different society in each pod. I
recall one episode, a pod that was slowly killing the inhabitants with
plant exhaust, toxic waste, etc. The protagonists couldn't understand
how a society could CHOOSE to commit eventual suicide. I guess Bush
never saw the show.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
19 Aug 2007 11:51:44 PM |
|
|
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ng2ic3d84c0epdc2rdhd0mv928hj2l2v24@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 01:01:00 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
It certainly seems to be the way that climate change is being handled in
the
US, a whole series of 'obstacles' put up to defer making any decision (
as
we don't yet have all the facts) and as each are dismantled by yet more
scientific evidence, why, yet another appears to further delay action
(okay,
so maybe the globe _is_ getting warmer but we don't know why so we can't
do
anything.... okay, maybe greenhouse gases _might_ be responsible but cows
fart too.....okay, maybe the ice caps are melting but that might be a
natural cycle.... okay, so _maybe_ they are melting way too fast for it
to
be a natural cycle but maybe the sun is getting hotter...okay, it aint
the
sun getting hotter but maybe.. and so on and so on...).
What may strike future historians as odd (assuming there will be any) is
that such concern for having all the 'facts' before acting and ensuring
the
absolute accuracy of those facts is highly unusual political behaviour,
not
just for this administration but, in general, for most every
administration
in most every place.
If it's a question of the administration doing something it wants,
it's "full speed ahead and damn the facts we don't have." If it's a
question of the administration doing something it doesn't want to do,
it's "full brakes and let's get the facts before we do anything."
Business as usual.
It did occur to me that the other observed behaviour goes along the lines of
: " It's the previous administrations fault for they did nothing and we
demand the next administration states clearly what it intends to do about
it!"
Still, no doubt as the sea laps gently at the door of the White House
some
one will wonder if it is the Atlantic or the Pacific and thus demand more
time to study the 'facts' before any action need be taken....
There was a SciFi show on TV years ago. It was a generation ship,
with many pods off the main body, a different society in each pod. I
recall one episode, a pod that was slowly killing the inhabitants with
plant exhaust, toxic waste, etc. The protagonists couldn't understand
how a society could CHOOSE to commit eventual suicide. I guess Bush
never saw the show.
I sometimes think it is not so much a societal suicidal tendency but more
of a small sector of that society not caring how much of it gets destroyed
as long as they get to survive,. the mystery being why they would think that
_they_ will get to survive. After all, those who may propose cannabalism as
a solution to a dietary crisis will rarely offer themselves as the first
meal.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
20 Aug 2007 07:40:36 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 05:51:44 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
I sometimes think it is not so much a societal suicidal tendency but more
of a small sector of that society not caring how much of it gets destroyed
as long as they get to survive,. the mystery being why they would think that
_they_ will get to survive.
Christianity. Good Christians (and of course, THEY are the good ones)
go to heaven. Same psychosis.
After all, those who may propose cannabalism as
a solution to a dietary crisis will rarely offer themselves as the first
meal.
Seldom even contemplate BEING a meal.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
20 Aug 2007 11:03:51 AM |
|
|
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:3s2jc3doj737gphqalfub8bss5kja1u4mu@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 05:51:44 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
I sometimes think it is not so much a societal suicidal tendency but
more
of a small sector of that society not caring how much of it gets
destroyed
as long as they get to survive,. the mystery being why they would think
that
_they_ will get to survive.
Christianity. Good Christians (and of course, THEY are the good ones)
go to heaven. Same psychosis.
It may well account for a significant part of the global population, but not
all subscribe to the christian group phychosis? But perhaps the
crazymotherfuckers are just a specific manifestation of the overall
pychosis?
.. >
After all, those who may propose cannabalism as
a solution to a dietary crisis will rarely offer themselves as the first
meal.
Seldom even contemplate BEING a meal.
Which is odd, for the christians, as a major part of their worship is
centred around their alleged messiah being such a meal...
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
20 Aug 2007 08:35:44 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:03:51 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:3s2jc3doj737gphqalfub8bss5kja1u4mu@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 05:51:44 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
I sometimes think it is not so much a societal suicidal tendency but
more
of a small sector of that society not caring how much of it gets
destroyed
as long as they get to survive,. the mystery being why they would think
that
_they_ will get to survive.
Christianity. Good Christians (and of course, THEY are the good ones)
go to heaven. Same psychosis.
It may well account for a significant part of the global population, but not
all subscribe to the christian group phychosis?
Christians, Jews, Moslems. Maybe some others.
After all, those who may propose cannabalism as
a solution to a dietary crisis will rarely offer themselves as the first
meal.
Seldom even contemplate BEING a meal.
Which is odd, for the christians, as a major part of their worship is
centred around their alleged messiah being such a meal...
And yet Christianity decries cannibalism.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
21 Aug 2007 02:53:59 AM |
|
|
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:j9gkc31vba81hua8gbgct5o3vpm2di7flf@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:03:51 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:3s2jc3doj737gphqalfub8bss5kja1u4mu@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 05:51:44 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
I sometimes think it is not so much a societal suicidal tendency but
more
of a small sector of that society not caring how much of it gets
destroyed
as long as they get to survive,. the mystery being why they would
think
that
_they_ will get to survive.
Christianity. Good Christians (and of course, THEY are the good ones)
go to heaven. Same psychosis.
It may well account for a significant part of the global population, but
not
all subscribe to the christian group phychosis?
Christians, Jews, Moslems. Maybe some others.
After all, those who may propose cannabalism as
a solution to a dietary crisis will rarely offer themselves as the
first
meal.
Seldom even contemplate BEING a meal.
Which is odd, for the christians, as a major part of their worship is
centred around their alleged messiah being such a meal...
And yet Christianity decries cannibalism.
Indeed, no wonder they are such a mixed up bunch of
crazymotherfuckers.......
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bama Brian" |
|
| Title: Re: Abortion Increases Crime Rate |
20 Aug 2007 08:44:08 AM |
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On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 01:01 +0100, brique wrote:
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:b44hc31tjl6aebtqdr4gtu45rus557dkmd@4ax.com...
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:07:18 +0100, "brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m>
wrote:
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:5n4fc3p6o849cvargh27cosclkcbhsc6jg@4ax.com...
The solution is to make sure that insolation and radiation are equal.
The details can be worked out among methods we know how to implement.
However, models including natural+anthropogenic forcing (which show an
almost perfect correlation to measured data over the last 150 years)
show that changing any of the factors (greenhouse gases, aerosols,
albedo, insolation or other agents) would change the amount of
temperature rise. If we can't change one of them, but we can change
another one, we change the ones we CAN change, regardless of the
cause. The result is the same.
Isn't it all rather : 'the floods are coming over the levees but _I_
didn't
spit in the ocean so it's nothing to do with me!'? Maybe that's why they
seem to have let New Orleans drown, after all, until some-one can prove
conclusively how and why hurricanes start and accurately predict their
inception, velocity, duration and course then there is nothing to be
done,
is there?
Pretty much. "Let's not act until we have all the facts" - which
we'll never have. They can always find one more little thing we're
not absolutely certain of.
It certainly seems to be the way that climate change is being handled in the
US, a whole series of 'obstacles' put up to defer making any decision ( as
we don't yet have all the facts) and as each are dismantled by yet more
scientific evidence, why, yet another appears to further delay action (okay,
so maybe the globe _is_ getting warmer but we don't know why so we can't do
anything.... okay, maybe greenhouse gases _might_ be responsible but cows
fart too.....okay, maybe the ice caps are melting but that might be a
natural cycle.... okay, so _maybe_ they are melting way too fast for it to
be a natural cycle but maybe the sun is getting hotter...okay, it aint the
sun getting hotter but maybe.. and so on and so on...).
What may strike future historians as odd (assuming there will be any) is
that such concern for having all the 'facts' before acting and ensuring the
absolute accuracy of those facts is highly unusual political behaviour, not
just for this administration but, in general, for most every administration
in most every place.
Still, no doubt as the sea laps gently at the door of the White House some
one will wonder if it is the Atlantic or the Pacific and thus demand more
time to study the 'facts' before any action need be taken....
What is really needed is to clearly understand what is going on. We all
know that the Ice Ages have come and gone without human intervention.
But how much has human intervention impacted the process - and what will
be the impact should we do the wrong thing? Last Ice Age, the site of
what would become New York City was under a mile of ice. This may not
be a bad thing, but New Yorkers would argue the point!
We have recently heard that 1998 was not the warmest year on record;
that honor goes to 1934 due to a NASA error. What is also not known is
why some of the most devoted climate change devotees are not willing to
share their knowledge with the world, so the rest of us can see how they
arrived at their conclusions.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/317/5834/28a
No matter where one stands, the issue should not be politicized to the
extent that non-climate believers are accused of being treasonous, as
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is doing. We do not need witch hunts substituted
for science:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071107H.shtml
For a reasoned view, go see Freeman Dyson's essay at:
http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge219.html
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
.
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