accident and aftermath

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Tukla Ratte"
Date:	15 Aug 2004 10:17:53 PM
Object:	accident and aftermath

On August 4, I received a call from the Pocahontas County Sheriff
Dept. informing me that my wife, Brenda, and my 4-year-old son,
Caelin, had been killed in a car accident coming home from a visit to
Brenda's mom. They collided with the trailer of a semi and were
killed instantly. The reason for the collision is unknown.
Brenda was a devout Christian. Fortunately, she also held progressive
social views and wasn't "in your face" about her religious beliefs, at
least at home. Most of her friends were fellow churchgoers with whom
I had very little contact.
After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.
Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.
Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.
But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.
But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....
Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"
I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.
I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.
Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.
So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.
I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.
<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.
.

User: "Therion Ware"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 01:01:36 AM

On 15 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700 in alt.atheism, Tukla Ratte
(tukla_ratte@tukla.net (Tukla Ratte)) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism

While no words can be adequate please accept my sincere condolences.

Brenda was a devout Christian. Fortunately, she also held progressive
social views and wasn't "in your face" about her religious beliefs, at
least at home. Most of her friends were fellow churchgoers with whom
I had very little contact.

After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.

Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.

Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.

But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.

But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

Vent away. That's what friends are for.
.

User: "Claytonman...Claytonman....Does What Ever A Beer Can"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 02:09:47 AM

"Tukla Ratte" <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote in message
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com...

On August 4, I received a call from the Pocahontas County Sheriff
Dept. informing me that my wife, Brenda, and my 4-year-old son,
Caelin, had been killed in a car accident coming home from a visit to
Brenda's mom. They collided with the trailer of a semi and were
killed instantly. The reason for the collision is unknown.

Brenda was a devout Christian. Fortunately, she also held progressive
social views and wasn't "in your face" about her religious beliefs, at
least at home. Most of her friends were fellow churchgoers with whom
I had very little contact.

After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.

Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.

Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.

But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.

But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

This is one of those times when I literally don't know what to say. Saying
I'm sorry or give my condolences just seems so inadequate but I don't want
to stay silent as I often do in these situations. All I can say is be
strong and don't be afraid to grieve. Cry, yell, scream and punch a hole in
the wall over how unfair it all is if you want, don't hold back, but never
for a minute think you are alone! Take all the love and help you can get
and don't try to rush the healing...time is something you need to embrace.
I almost feel like crying myself. It's not much...but you have all my
condolences possible!
.

User: "MrD"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 09:23:13 AM

"Tukla Ratte" <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote in message
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com...

My thoughts are with you, I'm sorry I can't do more.
You can fight the sea of religion by staying on the shore.
I made up this little ditty to please you, not be a bore.
My thoughts are with you, I'm sorry I can't do more.
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	15 Aug 2004 10:37:31 PM

"Tukla Ratte" <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote in message
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com...

Oh my, I don't know what to say. I can't even begin to imagine what you're
going through. My thoughts, condolences and love, I send to you, my friend.
We're all here for you.
.

User: "Honus"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	15 Aug 2004 11:15:37 PM

"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:2oaofrF7qtubU1@uni-berlin.de...

"Tukla Ratte" <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote in message
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com...

Oh my, I don't know what to say. I can't even begin to imagine what

you're

going through. My thoughts, condolences and love, I send to you, my

friend.

We're all here for you.

I second that. I admire your restraint, but I think that right now you need
to pay more attention to taking care of yourself and -your- feelings. From
the tenor of your post I have every confidence that you could politely and
tactfully put your foot down. And don't apologize for rambling or venting.
We all know how cathartic that can be. :)
.

User: "Michelle Malkin"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 03:24:26 AM

"Tukla Ratte" <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote in message
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com...

Oh, Kevin, I don't know what to say. I am so sorry for your loss.
If you want to talk or let off steam, please feel free to write me.

That was nice of them. Most Christians are nice people.

Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.

Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.

But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.

And your memories of them.

But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

Then there are the Christians who take advantage of people when
they are at their lowest ebb. I despise people like them.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

That's probably why Aisha brought Beth with her.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

Their intentions aren't good. They want nothing more than to trap
you into their religion. You don't have to be polite to them, once
you've told them that you are not interested. They are being
abysmally rude. Politeness can only go so far.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

Vent all you want. You know you have friends here. It sounds
like the proselytizers have you surrounded, and you need to
talk to people who understand.
Mickey
.

User: "walksalone"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 02:03:06 AM

*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
On 15 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700, Tukla Ratte wrote:

Sorry to hear that, never good news.
snip

need a mail addy, can do easy if you recall I am not baawa & cast a wide
net.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

Door's always been open, no reason to be otherwise.
walksalone who knows death is the end of the journey, but has to wonder
about the timing from time to time.
-----= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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.

User: "Ph�lt�r"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 05:09:27 AM

(Tukla Ratte) astounded us with:
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com:

My sincere condolences....
--
Ph�lt�r
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attach�
http://forums.clickhalah.com/index.php
Remove "s" to respond
.

User: "Doc Smartass"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 12:16:41 AM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com:

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

My condolences on your loss; if you can't ramble and vent with us, we're
not holding up our end of the friendship.
Don't ever apologize for being real.
--
Jody, for a change.
.

User: "Khartoum"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 09:06:27 PM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com:

I'm very sorry Tukla. My sincere condolences.
--
***********************************************
Khartoum aa#2110
EAC Director of Subversive Horticulture
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without
having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
~Douglas Adams
.

User: "Woden wodencharternet"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	15 Aug 2004 11:28:27 PM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com:

On August 4, I received a call from the Pocahontas County Sheriff
Dept. informing me that my wife, Brenda, and my 4-year-old son,
Caelin, had been killed in a car accident coming home from a visit to
Brenda's mom. They collided with the trailer of a semi and were
killed instantly. The reason for the collision is unknown.

Brenda was a devout Christian. Fortunately, she also held progressive
social views and wasn't "in your face" about her religious beliefs, at
least at home. Most of her friends were fellow churchgoers with whom
I had very little contact.

After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.

Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.

Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.

But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.

But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

I would like to add my words of sorrow to those you've already received.
From my own experience, I know how difficult these times can be. Don't
worry or feel bad about dropping by to ventilate, complain, reminisce,
share with friends,... We'll be here for you.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.

User: "H.D.S"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	18 Aug 2004 12:52:03 AM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in
news:3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com:

I am very sorry.
Best regards
.

User: "Elroy Willis"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 06:55:14 AM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in alt.atheism

Man oh man, what a bummer...

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

Vent away, it's good for you. Don't hide your grief or try to stifle
it, it will only make things worse.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://www.eapnews.com
.

User: "Kermit"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 02:30:17 PM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in message news:<3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>...

On August 4, I received a call from the Pocahontas County Sheriff
Dept. informing me that my wife, Brenda, and my 4-year-old son,
Caelin, had been killed in a car accident coming home from a visit to
Brenda's mom. They collided with the trailer of a semi and were
killed instantly. The reason for the collision is unknown.

Brenda was a devout Christian. Fortunately, she also held progressive
social views and wasn't "in your face" about her religious beliefs, at
least at home. Most of her friends were fellow churchgoers with whom
I had very little contact.

After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.

Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.

Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.

But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.

But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

This is a loss deeper than I can bring myself to imagine. My thoughts
are with you.
For pushy aquantaintances, try telling them that you have your own
path in life, and you are confident that you will in time join your
wife and son, and you don't care to discuss alternatives in the
forseeable future.
Show them to the door one at a time, if necessary, and don't let those
particular ones back in until you're ready.
Kermit
.

User: ""
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 05:49:30 PM

On 16 Aug 2004 12:30:17 -0700,

(Kermit)
wrote:

tukla_ratte@tukla.net (Tukla Ratte) wrote in message news:<3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>...

On August 4, I received a call from the Pocahontas County Sheriff
Dept. informing me that my wife, Brenda, and my 4-year-old son,
Caelin, had been killed in a car accident coming home from a visit to
Brenda's mom. They collided with the trailer of a semi and were
killed instantly. The reason for the collision is unknown.

Brenda was a devout Christian. Fortunately, she also held progressive
social views and wasn't "in your face" about her religious beliefs, at
least at home. Most of her friends were fellow churchgoers with whom
I had very little contact.

After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.

Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.

Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.

But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.

But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

This is a loss deeper than I can bring myself to imagine. My thoughts
are with you.

For pushy aquantaintances, try telling them that you have your own
path in life, and you are confident that you will in time join your
wife and son, and you don't care to discuss alternatives in the
forseeable future.

Show them to the door one at a time, if necessary, and don't let those
particular ones back in until you're ready.

Kermit

My deepest condolences,
"Stick to your guns" as they say: thank them for their concerns, but
don't let the meddlers convert you to their mindset.
Be strong. And stay strong, even with what you are going through.
drift
.

User: ""
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 05:43:33 PM

On 16 Aug 2004 12:30:17 -0700,

(Kermit)
wrote:

tukla_ratte@tukla.net (Tukla Ratte) wrote in message news:<3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>...

On August 4, I received a call from the Pocahontas County Sheriff
Dept. informing me that my wife, Brenda, and my 4-year-old son,
Caelin, had been killed in a car accident coming home from a visit to
Brenda's mom. They collided with the trailer of a semi and were
killed instantly. The reason for the collision is unknown.

Brenda was a devout Christian. Fortunately, she also held progressive
social views and wasn't "in your face" about her religious beliefs, at
least at home. Most of her friends were fellow churchgoers with whom
I had very little contact.

After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.

Out of respect for Brenda, and the help and support her friends
provided, I bit my lip through every mention of Heaven, and angels,
and God's mercy, and even my mom telling me -- despite my telling her
years ago that I'm an atheist -- that she knows I "really still
believe in God". I have accepted every "you're in my prayers" with
good grace. I have smiled at every "Caelin is your own little angel
now". I've bowed my head while others prayed.

Quite honestly, this difficult time has made the lure of religion very
strong. I would *like* to believe that Brenda and Caelin aren't
actually dead, they're just in some other universe waiting for me to
join them.

But it's not true! They're dead. They're gone, and nothing can bring
them back. The only real comfort I have is that they didn't suffer.

But now some of her friends aren't letting go. Many of them keep
calling me. A few have stopped by, without notice in about half the
cases. And now, tonight....

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

This is a loss deeper than I can bring myself to imagine. My thoughts
are with you.

For pushy aquantaintances, try telling them that you have your own
path in life, and you are confident that you will in time join your
wife and son, and you don't care to discuss alternatives in the
forseeable future.

Show them to the door one at a time, if necessary, and don't let those
particular ones back in until you're ready.

Kermit

drift
.

User: "Andrew Lias"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 05:44:08 PM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in message news:<3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>...

I am so utterly sorry to hear that, Tukla. I want to say something
comforting and consoling but everything that comes to mind strikes me
as either inane or trite. All I can say is that this is a horrible
and unfair thing and that it should not have happened. To often
circumstance delivers us sadness and misery. I wish you strength in
your grief.
[...]

There's no manual of bereaved ettiquette that says that you have to
endure this kind of crap. This is unacceptable and you don't have to
put up with it. If she didn't get the hint the first time, you are
within your rights to tell her, point blank, that you are an athiest
and that this is entirely unwelcome. If she persists, you can tell
her to get the hell out of your house.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

Your sense of restraint is laudible but it's not required. You are a
man who is, quite literally, grieving for his wife. What she did
would be no different than telling a Jewish man that his wife was with
Christ. It's insensitive, boorish and hurtful. If Beth is, indeed, a
good person, she'd understand.

Give your rejections in polite but clear tones. Tell them thank you
but that you are an athiest and their offers, while good intentioned,
are neither welcome nor wanted. If they persist, you have the right
to tell them to ***** in so many words.

They are the ones who should be sensitive about hurting YOUR feelings
Tukla. Good grief, you just lost your wife and child. Anyone who
would deliberately add to your stress and pain is a cretin. There is
a point where politeness must give way to directness. If they refuse
to acknowledge your polite rejections, you need to start giving our
impolite ones.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

It's okay, Tukla. You have a legitimate complaint. I'm telling you
right now, don't let these people walk over you. You DO NOT have to
suffer these fools gladly. Okay?
If you can't bring yourself to tell them to leave you alone, give me
their numbers and I'll tell them for you. Trust me, they'll get the
point when I put it to them.
--
Andrew Lias
http://andrewlias.blogspot.com
.

User: "Tukla Ratte"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	24 Aug 2004 01:07:06 PM

Andrew Lias wrote:

tukla_ratte@tukla.net (Tukla Ratte) wrote in message news:<3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>...

< snip >

They are the ones who should be sensitive about hurting YOUR feelings
Tukla. Good grief, you just lost your wife and child. Anyone who
would deliberately add to your stress and pain is a cretin.

Thanks, Andrew. You're right, of course, and it's time I reevaluate my
priorities. Those people aren't the ones who come home to an empty
apartment every night, aren't the ones who sleep alone in a queen-size
bed, aren't the ones who keep walking past a bedroom with lots of toys
in it but no one to play with them.
I'm always afraid of "burning bridges", but the fact is I'm not
interested in being these people's friend, much less their fellow cult
member. I'm grateful for the help they freely gave when we moved to
Ames and then, just a few days later, when Brenda and Caelin died. But
now I just want them to leave me alone, and I need to tell them that,
one way or the other.
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism
.

User: "Andrew Lias"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	25 Aug 2004 08:43:20 AM

Tukla Ratte <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote in message news:<2p1ealFfhemtU1@uni-berlin.de>...

Andrew Lias wrote:

They are the ones who should be sensitive about hurting YOUR feelings
Tukla. Good grief, you just lost your wife and child. Anyone who
would deliberately add to your stress and pain is a cretin.

Just so.

I'm always afraid of "burning bridges", but the fact is I'm not
interested in being these people's friend, much less their fellow cult
member. I'm grateful for the help they freely gave when we moved to
Ames and then, just a few days later, when Brenda and Caelin died.

Gratitude should never be a blank check. If they've done good things,
that's great. It doesn't excuse them from doing bad things.
Badgering a grieving man to join your religion is a Very Bad Thing.
They either need to get a clue or to take a hike.

But
now I just want them to leave me alone, and I need to tell them that,
one way or the other.

Some bridges are better off burnt, in my opinion.
I know this much: you have friends, real friends. You have them here
and I have no doubt that you have them in real life. They'll be the
ones who support you through this, not those daft sheep who think that
tragedies make for excellent recruitment opportunities.
Hang in there. You're one of the good ones, Mr. Ratte.
--
Andrew Lias
http://andrewlias.blogspot.com
.

User: "Natalie Overstreet Ramsey"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 06:59:25 PM

(Tukla Ratte) wrote in message news:<3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>...

Tukla, I'm so sorry. Death is hell on the living, and unexpected
death is worst of all, I think. <HUG>
[snip]

She is a Bad Person. Don't worry yourself about her.
[snip]

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

That's what a.a is *for*. :-)
I'm sure you're doing your best to be civilized, but you shouldn't feel
obligated to be a punching bag. You may end up hurting their feelings.
It's possible. It's perhaps even likely if they carry on as they have been.
Don't worry about it. The ones that are worthwhile human beings will
understand that this sort of circumstance brings out the worst in everybody.
The ones who aren't are simply not worth concern over whether you end
up offending them after you've been pushed beyond your limits.
Drop me a line if you need anything at all. <HUG>
Natalie
.

User: "Tukla Ratte"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	17 Aug 2004 05:02:34 PM

I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the support and advice
you've all given me, both here and in email. I plan to respond to some
of your posts individually, but I will be out of town on business until
the weekend, so I wanted to let you know I haven't disappeared again.
I'll see you this weekend!
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	18 Aug 2004 06:25:02 AM

"Tukla Ratte" <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote in message
news:2ofdgdFa3qp0U1@uni-berlin.de...

Take all the time you need, sweetie. We'll always be here for you. Take
care!
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 05:25:17 AM

I'm so sorry ro hear that. My heart goes out to you.
It's a tragic losss, and people like that just make it worse.
Some of them can be ghouls at a time like this, can't they? It's
stupidly nasty of them - I don't know who are worse, those who know
you're atheist and do it deliberately, or those who know and don't
even think about it.
Letting off steam at one of the ones you don't care for, might even
help.
.

User: *"nemo"*
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 05:02:09 AM

In article <3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>,

(Tukla Ratte) wrote:

Damn, man. I'm awfully sorry to hear about this. No one should ever have
to go through something like this. I know it's going to be a very rough
time for you ... but remember, there are friends out here who care about
you.
<snip>

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

*****! I fucking HATE this sort of thing. My mother died in January, and
two total strangers - Jehovah's Witlesses - wrote to my Dad, inviting
him to join their idiot religion. I guess they figured he was "just
about ripe." ***** heartless, brain-dead fucking ghouls!
<snip>

I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty.

I'll bet. They believe their intentions are good, but they aren't. They
don't give a ***** about the anguish they might be causing. If you are
"going to heaven," they're happy as clams. If not, then they think you
need to be "brought into the harvest." No damn respect from *****-heads
like that.

I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

A "God bless you" I can understand. That's a good sign of actually
caring. Trying to recruit you at this time of emotional turmoil is a
completely different thing. I'd say "Look. I'm an atheist, and I don't
believe in what you believe in. This recruiting hurts my feelings, and
if you really want to 'bless me,' then don't bother me with this."

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

It's vital to vent. Go for it. E-mail me if you want to vent in the
direction of just one person. I'll be there for you.
Take care, mon.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.

User: "johac"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 12:17:03 AM

In article <3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>,

(Tukla Ratte) wrote:

I'm so sorry to hear about you loss. My deepest condolences. Hang in
there.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
-The ability to change one's mind, ideas, and opinions when confronted with
new facts is the sign of the rational and intelligent. The inability to do
so is the hallmark of the dimwitted and the fanatic. This applies not only
to science and philosophy, but also to politics.-
.

User: "chibiabos"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	17 Aug 2004 03:45:32 PM

In article <3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>, Tukla
Ratte <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote:

Well, ain't this just the shits. I check in to AA after being gone for
months only to read this. ***** and double *****.
Tukla, I am beyond sorry for your loss. Truly, I am. You always knew
how to make people here smile. Nobody, especially you, deserves this.
Take care of yourself. Ignore the bleaters. Like good sheep, they're
just doing what they are trained to do, and can't help themselves.
-chib
--
Member of SMASH
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
(email: change out to in)
.

User: "Mike Smith"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	19 Aug 2004 09:49:14 AM

chibiabos <chib@outreach.com> wrote:
<piggybacking>
= Tukla Ratte <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote:
=
=> On August 4, I received a call from the Pocahontas
=> County Sheriff Dept. informing me that my wife,
=> Brenda, and my 4-year-old son, Caelin, had been
=> killed in a car accident coming home from a visit to
=> Brenda's mom. They collided with the trailer of a
=> semi and were killed instantly. The reason for the
=> collision is unknown.
Very sorry to hear this. Haven't talked to you
very much, Kevin, but nobody deserves this.
__________________________________________
��
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
��
"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them
that stand here, which shall not taste of death,
till they have seen the kingdom of God come with
power." - Mark 9:1
.

User: "Tukla Ratte"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	24 Aug 2004 01:17:02 PM

chibiabos wrote:
< snip >

You always knew how to make people here smile.

Thank you.
Well, I can't stay sad forever. And, horrible as this has all been, it
does give me a lot more free time. Maybe I'll be back in a few months
to taste the newest sheep. >8-)
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism
.

User: "Sean C"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 08:53:32 PM

In article <3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>, Tukla
Ratte <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote:
I can't imagine a loss more horrible and devastating than the one
you've suffered. I am so very sorry.
Sean C
.

User: "Emma Pease"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 07:35:22 PM

In article <3799c284.0408151917.6bdbb333@posting.google.com>, Tukla
Ratte wrote:

I am so sorry to hear this.

Two of Brenda's friends stopped by tonight for some pizza. One of
them, Aisha, soon after arriving, said, "They're both in Heaven,
though. Are you going to Heaven?"

I was taken completely by surprise. I felt like I'd let a JW in
without knowing it. It was offensive. I tried to tactfully change
the subject, but she pushed it.

I don't really know Aisha. I've only met her, briefly, twice, and
frankly she has rubbed me the wrong way. Brenda didn't like her much,
either, and now I know why. If she'd been here alone, I'd have told
her that her god belief is a pathetic delusion for people who can't
face reality.

Unfortunately, Brenda's other friend, Beth, was also here, and I
didn't want to upset her. Beth is Good People.

So I kept my lip zipped and changed the subject. But Aisha's blatant
prosetylizing is only the most egregious example of Brenda's friends
trying to recruit me. They've invited me to their churches, or their
Bible studies, or even their homes. Keep in mind, these are people I
barely know, and I'm not any more interested in being their friend now
than I was when Brenda was alive.
I realize their intentions are good, but their actions are driving me
nutty. I still don't want to hurt their feelings, but it's getting
harder to smile and say "thanks" to their "God bless you, Kevin"s.

One of the other posters made the suggestion of getting some friends
to run interference for you, I second this. Many of your friends
probably want to help you but don't know how and would leap at a
chance to do something specific. Perhaps if you talk privately to
Beth (or have a mutual non-religious friend do so) about how all these
attempts to convert are upsetting you (much like most Christians would
feel upset if a Jehovah's Witness or Muslim tried to convert them
after a tragedy), she might squash her co-religionists at least as far
as church or bible study invitations and other conversion attempts. A
truly good person of any religion (or of none) realizes that to ease
hurt is what a good human should do. It is entirely possible Beth may
not like Aisha or her actions either.

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

Vent, you have every reason to do so.
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
.

User: "Douglas Berry"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	15 Aug 2004 10:59:05 PM

In our last thrilling episode,

(Tukla Ratte) was
pushed over the cliffs of alt.atheism on 15 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700 by
Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he screamed:
<snip>

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

My deepest condolences, what you are going through is one of the most
horrifying things I can conceive of.
As for your wife's "friends", they are doing what every good cult
recruiter does.. going after people when they are weak. Pretty scummy
tactic, huh?
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.

User: "Uncle Dollar Bill"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 10:06:26 PM

On 15 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700 in alt.atheism,

(Tukla
Ratte) defied the status quo and scrawled upon the toilet stall:

I'm sorry for your loss and what you're going through and will be going through
in the coming days, months and years. There is no parallel to this in my life -
grandparents, cousins, aunts & uncles, but neither a spouse nor a child and
especially not both at once. So I can't understand. But if there's anything I
can do, just say the word.

Ramble away. This aspect of it, at least, I'm quite familiar with. Sometimes
I've told them exactly where I stand and that they were wasting their breath,
sometimes I nodded politely until they were done. Rarely has anyone kept at it,
but when they have, I had to tell them basically that I respect their right to
believe what they believe, but I don't believe it and I'm not going to, and if
they wish to continue coming around, they're going to have to drop it -
permanently. Otherwise, they're not welcome. This is what I finally had to
tell my own two parents. They dropped it, thankfully, and are still a part of
my life - a much closer, more enjoyable part of it than they ever had been
before. It's a bit harsh, but you need to worry about doing what's best for
you, not what other people think is best for you. It's good to go about it in a
civil, polite manner if you can, but if that doesn't work, then screw
ettiquette.
Good luck. I hope you'll ramble again if ever you need to.
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
.

User: "Meteorite Debris"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 09:26:49 PM

On 15 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700 the ET form known as Tukla
Ratte<tukla_ratte@tukla.net> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.

I don't know what to say. Must be awful. My condolences.
Don't know really what to say to people Like Aisha. She comes across
as a vulture circling a wreck. Maybe you should just say you feel like
you're being circled by vultures, that you don't feel like being
proselytised to at a difficult time like this, that you need space,
that would would grant them the support, or space, they would need or
request in such a situation.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov
.

User: "Jos Flachs"
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 07:47:06 PM

On 15 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700,

(Tukla Ratte)
wrote:

<sigh> I apologize for my rambling. I don't really have a point.
I'm just venting, I guess. Sorry.

My sincere condolences. I know what you are going through.
I wish you much strength for the coming months ahead.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: accident and aftermath	16 Aug 2004 05:24:01 PM

On 15 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700,

(Tukla Ratte)
wrote:

Oh my, I am so sorry. As I get older, so many of those I have loved
for so long are leaving me. Some so suddenly...it's not fair. I can't
pretend to know exactly how you feel right now but I think I can
empathize.

Sounds like a wonderful woman.. I should be so lucky to meet and marry
such a woman.

After the accident, however, I was deluged. I admit that I could not
have gotten through this time without the help of Brenda's friends.
They helped notify people I didn't know how to contact, and they were
able to put together a simple, beautiful memorial service in short
order.

I have no problems with that. Many Christians are wonderful people, I
prefer to believe that they would be like that without the fairy
tales. When various family and friends have died recently they have
been there for me and mine, Albeit through my mother and brothers. No
matter what the validity of their motivation. They seemed genuine, and
more importantly, they didn't ask me to join their cult.