| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
23 Jan 2006 07:32:55 AM |
| Object: |
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Acupuncture
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2ab964bd17a521dc
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a8545c8e949926bc
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 11:53:21 AM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138023175.474905.256680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
A TV SHOW!? Gasp! I guess that's it then, if it's on TV it MUST be true!
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Beagle" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 01:06:46 PM |
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The thing that confuses me is that the presenter, Professor Kathy
Sykes, is a physicist. So why is she probing medical matters? Well, she
is very cute...
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 02:27:06 PM |
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"Beagle" <davidlonghorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138043206.436749.128800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The thing that confuses me is that the presenter, Professor Kathy
Sykes, is a physicist. So why is she probing medical matters? Well, she
is very cute...
Cute is good.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Bob Casanova" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 04:41:39 PM |
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:27:06 -0600, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>:
"Beagle" <davidlonghorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138043206.436749.128800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The thing that confuses me is that the presenter, Professor Kathy
Sykes, is a physicist. So why is she probing medical matters? Well, she
is very cute...
Cute is good.
.....but cute deactivates observer's brain.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 06:38:52 PM |
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"Bob Casanova" <nospam@buzz.off> wrote in message
news:csmat1tpv1fu6nn365ja8bjuf0b7vj1ldb@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:27:06 -0600, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>:
"Beagle" <davidlonghorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138043206.436749.128800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The thing that confuses me is that the presenter, Professor Kathy
Sykes, is a physicist. So why is she probing medical matters? Well, she
is very cute...
Cute is good.
....but cute deactivates observer's brain.
Point taken.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 11:43:13 PM |
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:38:52 -0600, in talk.origins
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in
<aoGdnZZz75GL6kjeRVn-gQ@io.com>:
"Bob Casanova" <nospam@buzz.off> wrote in message
news:csmat1tpv1fu6nn365ja8bjuf0b7vj1ldb@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:27:06 -0600, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>:
"Beagle" <davidlonghorn@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138043206.436749.128800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The thing that confuses me is that the presenter, Professor Kathy
Sykes, is a physicist. So why is she probing medical matters? Well, she
is very cute...
Cute is good.
....but cute deactivates observer's brain.
Point taken.
Weren't they trying to get through to those with already deactivated
brains?
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Kathy Sykes |
23 Jan 2006 02:52:10 PM |
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Beagle wrote:
The thing that confuses me is that the presenter, Professor Kathy
Sykes, is a physicist. So why is she probing medical matters? Well, she
is very cute...
Kathy Sykes
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%22Kathy%20Sykes%22&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&q=%22Kathy+Sykes%22&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kathy+Sykes%22&btnG=Search+Directory&hl=en&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Kathy+Sykes%22&start=0&scoring=d&num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 05:22:24 PM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1138023175.474905.256680
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Subject: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
Someone needs to take Bush's needles out.
--
Doc Smartass XP - New Interface, Same Old *****
Keep THOR in THURSDAY!
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
23 Jan 2006 11:34:50 PM |
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In article <1138023175.474905.256680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
maff91@yahoo.com says...
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Acupuncture
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2ab964bd17a521dc
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a8545c8e949926bc
All I know about Acupuncture is that when I had it done to my 14 year
old dog, a half hour later he was moving better than he had in a long
time. He regained his appetite, went from a scrawny 63 pounds, back up
to his lifetime weight of 75, and was able to take a mile walk a couple
times a week.
I kept getting him treated until he had to be put down due to cancer
about 6 months later.
I may try it if my back keeps screwing up.
BDK
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| User: "Wombat" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
24 Jan 2006 03:29:40 AM |
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BDK wrote:
In article <1138023175.474905.256680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
maff91@yahoo.com says...
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Acupuncture
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2ab964bd17a521dc
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a8545c8e949926bc
All I know about Acupuncture is that when I had it done to my 14 year
old dog, a half hour later he was moving better than he had in a long
time. He regained his appetite, went from a scrawny 63 pounds, back up
to his lifetime weight of 75, and was able to take a mile walk a couple
times a week.
I kept getting him treated until he had to be put down due to cancer
about 6 months later.
I may try it if my back keeps screwing up.
BDK
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
Terry Rigby
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| User: "Kevyn@Winkless" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
24 Jan 2006 08:31:54 AM |
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In article <1138094980.557194.73160@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
trigby@multiweb.nl says...
BDK wrote:
In article <1138023175.474905.256680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
maff91@yahoo.com says...
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Acupuncture
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2ab964bd17a521dc
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a8545c8e949926bc
All I know about Acupuncture is that when I had it done to my 14 year
old dog, a half hour later he was moving better than he had in a long
time. He regained his appetite, went from a scrawny 63 pounds, back up
to his lifetime weight of 75, and was able to take a mile walk a couple
times a week.
I kept getting him treated until he had to be put down due to cancer
about 6 months later.
I may try it if my back keeps screwing up.
BDK
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
It's definitely inconsistent - probably because we don't know what it
does, exactly. But successful non-human tests would imply that it
*is* doing *something*.
BDK's anecdotal evidence aside, I recall coming across an article on
PubMed a couple of years ago which discussed an experiment in which
acupuncture was used to manipulate dogs' stomach secretions to good
effect. I didn't read further than the abstract so I don't know how
their method stood up, but it is suggestive.
[now someone will post to say they've read the same article and judge
the method useless, or that subsequent research proved that the
results were the product of a little-known tendency of dogs to produce
stomach secretions when poked with sharp objects...]
.
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
24 Jan 2006 11:30:26 PM |
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In article <MPG.1e3ff65784d786119896b9@news.cc.umanitoba.ca>, umwinkl0
@seesee.umanitoba.ca says...
In article <1138094980.557194.73160@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
trigby@multiweb.nl says...
BDK wrote:
In article <1138023175.474905.256680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
maff91@yahoo.com says...
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Acupuncture
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2ab964bd17a521dc
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a8545c8e949926bc
All I know about Acupuncture is that when I had it done to my 14 year
old dog, a half hour later he was moving better than he had in a long
time. He regained his appetite, went from a scrawny 63 pounds, back up
to his lifetime weight of 75, and was able to take a mile walk a couple
times a week.
I kept getting him treated until he had to be put down due to cancer
about 6 months later.
I may try it if my back keeps screwing up.
BDK
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
It's definitely inconsistent - probably because we don't know what it
does, exactly. But successful non-human tests would imply that it
*is* doing *something*.
BDK's anecdotal evidence aside, I recall coming across an article on
PubMed a couple of years ago which discussed an experiment in which
acupuncture was used to manipulate dogs' stomach secretions to good
effect. I didn't read further than the abstract so I don't know how
their method stood up, but it is suggestive.
[now someone will post to say they've read the same article and judge
the method useless, or that subsequent research proved that the
results were the product of a little-known tendency of dogs to produce
stomach secretions when poked with sharp objects...]
I've seen several other dogs that have had tremendous improvement in
their movement, due to, I'm going to guess, a huge reduction in their
pain level after having acupuncture.
My dog, after the first couple of treatments, began nodding off almost
as soon as the needles went in. He normally hated going to the vet, but
when he went to the acupuncture guy, he was happy as hell to see him
come in, versus the regular vet. When either one of the regular vets
walked in, he would gulp and usually shake. At the other place, he would
wag his tail and huff (a sign of pleasure) when he showed up. The
needles would go in, and soon the eyelids would start getting
heavy..very heavy. It made his last six months pretty decent. He ate
good, got around ok, not like he was young again, but ok, and he enjoyed
going for rides again.
Worth 35 bucks every two weeks..
BDK
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
24 Jan 2006 10:37:21 PM |
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Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
<snip>
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
It's definitely inconsistent - probably because we don't know what it
does, exactly. But successful non-human tests would imply that it
*is* doing *something*.
BDK's anecdotal evidence aside, I recall coming across an article on
PubMed a couple of years ago which discussed an experiment in which
acupuncture was used to manipulate dogs' stomach secretions to good
effect. I didn't read further than the abstract so I don't know how
their method stood up, but it is suggestive.
[now someone will post to say they've read the same article and judge
the method useless, or that subsequent research proved that the
results were the product of a little-known tendency of dogs to produce
stomach secretions when poked with sharp objects...]
There's Randi's million in it for anybody who wants to demonstrate it.
"King Solomon's Ring" by Conrad Lorenz discusses some of the incredible
things animals can do in response to unconscious signals from humans.
His story of the parrot that said "auf wiedersehen" when guests left shows
how important double blind studies are in working with animals.
No amount of planning ever fooled the animal. The people would do (almost)
everything they could to convince the parrot they were leaving. The parrot
never spoke until they actually left.
The "almost" got them.
Then there was the way he convinced the woman her dog could not spell...
.
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| User: "Kevyn@Winkless" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 10:49:37 AM |
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In article <5gDBf.14270$H71.14222@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
<snip>
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
It's definitely inconsistent - probably because we don't know what it
does, exactly. But successful non-human tests would imply that it
*is* doing *something*.
BDK's anecdotal evidence aside, I recall coming across an article on
PubMed a couple of years ago which discussed an experiment in which
acupuncture was used to manipulate dogs' stomach secretions to good
effect. I didn't read further than the abstract so I don't know how
their method stood up, but it is suggestive.
[now someone will post to say they've read the same article and judge
the method useless, or that subsequent research proved that the
results were the product of a little-known tendency of dogs to produce
stomach secretions when poked with sharp objects...]
There's Randi's million in it for anybody who wants to demonstrate it.
I somehow doubt this qualifies for Randi's supernatural challenge,
unless the researchers are actually claiming that chi rather than some
little-understood neurological or placebo process is causing the
effect.
Vickers, Andrew et al (2004) "Acupuncture for chronic headache in
primary care: large, pragmatic, randomised trial" British Medical
Journal 328(7442): 744
- found that accupuncture resulted in consistent decrease in reported
pain among headache sufferers, esp. those with migraines.
This study and others on back pain and dental pain led the British
Medical Association to approve accupuncture (see below for the caveat
from Moore et al)
Vickers also noted in an "FYI" article in BMJ that randomized trials
with anaesthetized animals implied that more than placebo effect was
occurring (though he conceded that it probably plays a part in the
effects seen in human trials, despite having performed the analysis
on a study on neck pain in humans which strongly suggests placebo
effect is not responsible for the pattern of pain relief: "Acupuncture
for treatment of chronic neck pain: Reanalysis of data suggests that
effect is not a placebo effect" BMJ. 2001 December 1; 323(7324): 1306)
Examples of animal effects:
Chiu, Jen-Hway et al (2003) "Different central manifestations in
response to electroacupuncture at analgesic and nonanalgesic acupoints
in rats: a manganese-enhanced functional magnetic resonance imaging
study" Canadian Journal of Veterinary Research 67(2): 94?101
- Found that in comparison to other groups including controls for
several factors true electroacupuncture applied to analgesic acupoints
resulted in primary responses in the hypothalamus, and a tendency to
earlier pain-modulation area activation after treatment.
Stenor-Victorin, Elisabet et al (2003) "Steroid-induced polycystic
ovaries in rats: effect of electro-acupuncture on concentrations of
endothelin-1 and nerve growth factor (NGF), and expression of NGF mRNA
in the ovaries, the adrenal glands, and the central nervous system"
Reproductive Biology and Endocrinology 1: 33
- Found that electro-acupuncture modulates the neuroendocrinological
state of the ovaries, most likely by modulating the sympathetic nerve
activity in the ovaries
Note that these are not people claiming that chi meridians are
responsible for the effects, but actual medical researchers examining
the neurological and endocrine effects that acupuncture is known to
produce.
On the other hand, Moore et al note that the BMA report was based on a
range of studies, some of which had problems which lead them to
question the results, saying:
"Trials of acupuncture suffer problems of poor quality, which leads to
bias. Reviews with poor quality studies overestimate treatment
effects. Original reports may come to the wrong conclusion from their
own data, a fact true of two of 13 studies of acupuncture in neck and
back pain"
Moore, R.A. et al (2000) "BMA approves acupuncture, BMA report is
wrong" BMJ 321(7270): 1220
And a study on electro-acupuncture therapy for lame horses found no
significant difference between the treatment group and the control
group: Steiss et al (1989) Electroacupuncture in the treatment of
chronic lameness in horses and ponies: a controlled clinical trial.
Canadian Journal of Veterinary Research 53(2): 239-243
But you might notice that the positive examples I offered here
post-date Moore's objection. It's definitely true that early studies
on the effectiveness of acupuncture suffered serious methodological
problems, especially since they dealt exclusively with humans and had
poor blinding procedures. Modern studies have a better idea of what
to do and produce somewhat more consistent results which suggest that
something interesting is going on.
"King Solomon's Ring" by Conrad Lorenz discusses some of the incredible
things animals can do in response to unconscious signals from humans.
Anesthetized animals? Most of the animal studies are done with
untrained lab animals which are anesthetized for the procedure. And
note the study above which relied not on the response of the animal
but MRI to determine what neurological effects were taking place.
His story of the parrot that said "auf wiedersehen" when guests left shows
how important double blind studies are in working with animals.
No amount of planning ever fooled the animal. The people would do (almost)
everything they could to convince the parrot they were leaving. The parrot
never spoke until they actually left.
The "almost" got them.
Then there was the way he convinced the woman her dog could not spell...
These examples are not relevant to modern medical research into
acupuncture.
Researchers who investigate acupuncture don't invoke chi or any other
supernatural force. They note the relationship between neurological
and endocrine processes and the application of acupuncture therapy in
animals, or they use complex, controlled studies of pain perception in
humans (admittedly subject to placebo effect, but blinding methods
have been developed)
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 01:23:40 PM |
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Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
In article <5gDBf.14270$H71.14222@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
<snip>
There's Randi's million in it for anybody who wants to demonstrate
it.
I somehow doubt this qualifies for Randi's supernatural challenge,
unless the researchers are actually claiming that chi rather than some
little-understood neurological or placebo process is causing the
effect.
It absolutely qualifies. Check his site or email him. The same goes for
chiropractors and homeopathic medicine as well.
.
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| User: "Kevyn@Winkless" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 03:49:57 PM |
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In article <0fQBf.14593$H71.6852@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
In article <5gDBf.14270$H71.14222@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
<snip>
There's Randi's million in it for anybody who wants to demonstrate
it.
I somehow doubt this qualifies for Randi's supernatural challenge,
unless the researchers are actually claiming that chi rather than some
little-understood neurological or placebo process is causing the
effect.
It absolutely qualifies. Check his site or email him. The same goes for
chiropractors and homeopathic medicine as well.
I notice you failed to address the peer reviewed articles I referenced
in my response. Is there a reason?
.
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| User: "Kevyn@Winkless" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 04:01:38 PM |
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In article <0fQBf.14593$H71.6852@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
In article <5gDBf.14270$H71.14222@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
<snip>
There's Randi's million in it for anybody who wants to demonstrate
it.
I somehow doubt this qualifies for Randi's supernatural challenge,
unless the researchers are actually claiming that chi rather than some
little-understood neurological or placebo process is causing the
effect.
It absolutely qualifies. Check his site or email him. The same goes for
chiropractors and homeopathic medicine as well.
Just to note, since I was unfamiliar with the details of Randi's
challenge I checked out his page outlining the Million Dollar
Challenge:
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
To quote: "I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 to
any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal
ability under satisfactory observing conditions."
Since acupuncture as investigated by medical science and published in
peer reviewed scientific journals is not a paranormal, psychic or
supernatural phenomenon but a biological one it does not qualify.
While many of the claims of homeopaths and chiropractors probably do
qualify (I'm not that familiar with the details of what they claim)
certain claims such as the positive effects of therapeutic massage,
and the claim that returning a mispositioned joint to its proper place
would also seem not to qualify.
I think you're being too broad in your interpretation of what Randi's
out to test.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 07:14:53 PM |
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Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
I somehow doubt this qualifies for Randi's supernatural challenge,
unless the researchers are actually claiming that chi rather than
some little-understood neurological or placebo process is causing
the effect.
It absolutely qualifies. Check his site or email him. The same goes
for chiropractors and homeopathic medicine as well.
Just to note, since I was unfamiliar with the details of Randi's
challenge I checked out his page outlining the Million Dollar
Challenge:
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
To quote: "I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 to
any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal
ability under satisfactory observing conditions."
Since acupuncture as investigated by medical science and published in
peer reviewed scientific journals is not a paranormal, psychic or
supernatural phenomenon but a biological one it does not qualify.
While many of the claims of homeopaths and chiropractors probably do
qualify (I'm not that familiar with the details of what they claim)
certain claims such as the positive effects of therapeutic massage,
and the claim that returning a mispositioned joint to its proper place
would also seem not to qualify.
I think you're being too broad in your interpretation of what Randi's
out to test.
Either do a search on his site or send him an email.
Acupuncture is covered.
Homeopathic medicine claims to cure things with water that remembers and
chiro's claim to cure things by manipulating the spine.
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| User: "Kevyn@Winkless" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 07:38:37 PM |
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In article <hoVBf.17948$Yu.11299@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
I somehow doubt this qualifies for Randi's supernatural challenge,
unless the researchers are actually claiming that chi rather than
some little-understood neurological or placebo process is causing
the effect.
It absolutely qualifies. Check his site or email him. The same goes
for chiropractors and homeopathic medicine as well.
Just to note, since I was unfamiliar with the details of Randi's
challenge I checked out his page outlining the Million Dollar
Challenge:
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
To quote: "I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 to
any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal
ability under satisfactory observing conditions."
Since acupuncture as investigated by medical science and published in
peer reviewed scientific journals is not a paranormal, psychic or
supernatural phenomenon but a biological one it does not qualify.
While many of the claims of homeopaths and chiropractors probably do
qualify (I'm not that familiar with the details of what they claim)
certain claims such as the positive effects of therapeutic massage,
and the claim that returning a mispositioned joint to its proper place
would also seem not to qualify.
I think you're being too broad in your interpretation of what Randi's
out to test.
Either do a search on his site or send him an email.
I did a search on his site - that's where I got the quote above,
obviously.
Acupuncture is covered.
Acupuncture is not mentioned in his list of paranormal phenomena,
though chiropractic and homeopathy are. He also *specifically*
excludes elements of chiropractic which deal only with therapy of
joint and muscle pain by muscle and bone manipulation. In other
words, he is looking for proof of their paranormal claims.
Acupuncture, as it is researched by modern medicine, does not include
any paranormal claims, only neurological and endocrinological claims,
many of which are confirmed by double blind controlled trials.
Such as the ones described in the peer reviewed literature I offered
you in a previous posting, which you have not yet responded to.
Homeopathic medicine claims to cure things with water that remembers and
chiro's claim to cure things by manipulating the spine.
I know what they are, thank-you. I merely don't know their claims in
enough detail to determine which ones Randi would consider paranormal.
(In the case of homeopathy, I should think all of them.)
So tell me, what claims presented in the articles I cited in my
previous posting qualify as paranormal, psychic or supernatural in
nature? I'm under the impression that they make their claims based on
known neuroscience and endocrinology, but by all means educate me.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 09:07:37 PM |
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Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
I think you're being too broad in your interpretation of what
Randi's out to test.
Either do a search on his site or send him an email.
I did a search on his site - that's where I got the quote above,
obviously.
Then send him an email if you can't find it.
He has always responded to mine.
Acupuncture is covered.
Acupuncture is not mentioned in his list of paranormal phenomena,
though chiropractic and homeopathy are. He also *specifically*
excludes elements of chiropractic which deal only with therapy of
joint and muscle pain by muscle and bone manipulation. In other
words, he is looking for proof of their paranormal claims.
Acupuncture, as it is researched by modern medicine, does not include
any paranormal claims, only neurological and endocrinological claims,
many of which are confirmed by double blind controlled trials.
Such as the ones described in the peer reviewed literature I offered
you in a previous posting, which you have not yet responded to.
You'll have to repost it.
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| User: "slothrop" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 10:57:56 AM |
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Mike Painter wrote:
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
<snip>
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
It's definitely inconsistent - probably because we don't know what it
does, exactly. But successful non-human tests would imply that it
*is* doing *something*.
BDK's anecdotal evidence aside, I recall coming across an article on
PubMed a couple of years ago which discussed an experiment in which
acupuncture was used to manipulate dogs' stomach secretions to good
effect. I didn't read further than the abstract so I don't know how
their method stood up, but it is suggestive.
[now someone will post to say they've read the same article and judge
the method useless, or that subsequent research proved that the
results were the product of a little-known tendency of dogs to produce
stomach secretions when poked with sharp objects...]
There's Randi's million in it for anybody who wants to demonstrate it.
Why would Randi care? It's not that anyone would be demonstrating that
rivers of "chi" are being manipulated (which I hear in China they're
not even claiming anymore)...if there's anything to this, it's due to
reasons that are completely natural. "Unorthodox" the procedure may be,
but that's only because we don't know enough about the way the body
heals itself...
slothrop
<snip>
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
24 Jan 2006 11:20:45 PM |
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In article <1138094980.557194.73160@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
trigby@multiweb.nl says...
BDK wrote:
In article <1138023175.474905.256680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
maff91@yahoo.com says...
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Acupuncture
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2ab964bd17a521dc
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a8545c8e949926bc
All I know about Acupuncture is that when I had it done to my 14 year
old dog, a half hour later he was moving better than he had in a long
time. He regained his appetite, went from a scrawny 63 pounds, back up
to his lifetime weight of 75, and was able to take a mile walk a couple
times a week.
I kept getting him treated until he had to be put down due to cancer
about 6 months later.
I may try it if my back keeps screwing up.
BDK
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
Terry Rigby
Well, it was worth a shot, since it's about as side effect free as is
possible for something to be..
BDK
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| User: "Kevyn@Winkless" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 10:52:12 AM |
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In article <MPG.1e40d4b82cda3fac989cff@news.buckeye-express.com>,
kingratay@buckeye-express.com says...
In article <1138094980.557194.73160@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
trigby@multiweb.nl says...
BDK wrote:
In article <1138023175.474905.256680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
maff91@yahoo.com says...
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Acupuncture
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/2ab964bd17a521dc
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/a8545c8e949926bc
All I know about Acupuncture is that when I had it done to my 14 year
old dog, a half hour later he was moving better than he had in a long
time. He regained his appetite, went from a scrawny 63 pounds, back up
to his lifetime weight of 75, and was able to take a mile walk a couple
times a week.
I kept getting him treated until he had to be put down due to cancer
about 6 months later.
I may try it if my back keeps screwing up.
BDK
I tried three courses of acupuncture for a sleep disorder, a problem
it's supposed to be good at curing. I still have the problem!
Terry Rigby
Well, it was worth a shot, since it's about as side effect free as is
possible for something to be..
BDK
Actually, there are a variety of side effects which can be quite
unpleasant, including the possibility of persistent (possibly
debilitating) pain following treatment.
I've never heard of acupuncture being recommended for sleep disorders
though, so I'm not very surprised that it didn't work for Terry. See
my response to Mike Painter for some examples of controlled studies of
acupuncture's effects on the neurological and endocrine systems.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 01:25:50 PM |
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Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
Well, it was worth a shot, since it's about as side effect free as is
possible for something to be..
BDK
Actually, there are a variety of side effects which can be quite
unpleasant, including the possibility of persistent (possibly
debilitating) pain following treatment.
"Improperly performed acupuncture can cause fainting, local hematoma (due to
bleeding from a punctured blood vessel), pneumothorax (punctured lung),
convulsions, local infections, hepatitis B (from unsterile needles),
bacterial endocarditis, contact dermatitis, and nerve damage. The herbs used
by acupuncture practitioners are not regulated for safety, potency, or
effectiveness. There is also risk that an acupuncturist whose approach to
diagnosis is not based on scientific concepts will fail to diagnose a
dangerous condition."
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html
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| User: "Siobhan Burke" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
26 Jan 2006 12:13:41 PM |
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In article <2hQBf.14594$H71.2488@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
Well, it was worth a shot, since it's about as side effect free as is
possible for something to be..
BDK
Actually, there are a variety of side effects which can be quite
unpleasant, including the possibility of persistent (possibly
debilitating) pain following treatment.
"Improperly performed acupuncture can cause fainting, local hematoma (due to
bleeding from a punctured blood vessel), pneumothorax (punctured lung),
convulsions, local infections, hepatitis B (from unsterile needles),
bacterial endocarditis, contact dermatitis, and nerve damage. The herbs used
by acupuncture practitioners are not regulated for safety, potency, or
effectiveness. There is also risk that an acupuncturist whose approach to
diagnosis is not based on scientific concepts will fail to diagnose a
dangerous condition."
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html
About fifteen years ago I worked for a company that made
backpacks, book bags etc. and I developed carpal tunnel syndrome
in both wrists. I opted for release surgery, and had an 85%
recovery. A coworker with the same problem at the same time
opted for acupuncture. I saw her about six months later. My
hands had recovered muscle tone and strength. Hers were
skeletal, skin over bones, and she had to use both hands to even
lift a bag of potato chips into her shopping cart. That told me
all I needed to know about acupuncture.
--
Siobhan - a.a. #2201
Hellflower@alMayne.net (not a real address the last time I
checked)
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be
preferred to the presence of those who think they've found
it."-- Terry Pratchett
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| User: "Kevyn@Winkless" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 03:47:22 PM |
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In article <2hQBf.14594$H71.2488@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net says...
Kevyn@Winkless wrote:
Well, it was worth a shot, since it's about as side effect free as is
possible for something to be..
BDK
Actually, there are a variety of side effects which can be quite
unpleasant, including the possibility of persistent (possibly
debilitating) pain following treatment.
"Improperly performed acupuncture can cause fainting, local hematoma (due to
bleeding from a punctured blood vessel), pneumothorax (punctured lung),
convulsions, local infections, hepatitis B (from unsterile needles),
bacterial endocarditis, contact dermatitis, and nerve damage. The herbs used
by acupuncture practitioners are not regulated for safety, potency, or
effectiveness. There is also risk that an acupuncturist whose approach to
diagnosis is not based on scientific concepts will fail to diagnose a
dangerous condition."
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html
In other words, a variety of side effects which can be quite
unpleasant.
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| User: "Ye Old One" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
24 Jan 2006 06:26:20 PM |
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On 23 Jan 2006 05:32:55 -0800, "maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> enriched this
group when s/he wrote:
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Just watched it. Very well made programme and very interesting.
--
Bob.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 06:08:48 AM |
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Ye Old One wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006 05:32:55 -0800, "maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> enriched this
group when s/he wrote:
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Just watched it. Very well made programme and very interesting.
As they're wont to say in Edinburgh, you'll have had your chi
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/54861.html
IAN BELL
Alternative Medicine, BBC2, 9.00pm
Shameless, Channel 4, 10.00pm
Professor Kathy Sykes had a point. In fact, she had several points. No,
you're right: there must be an acupuncture treatment available to help
alleviate the pain of terrible acupuncture jokes.
For those of us of a non-scientific - that would be "pig-ignorant"
- bent, nevertheless, there is something about the 2000-year-old
Chinese therapy that causes a kind of inner rebellion. Pleasingly,
Professor Sykes seemed to feel the same way. How on earth could turning
yourself into a pin-cushion cure every ailment known to man?
--
Bob.
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| User: "Ye Old One" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 10:11:12 AM |
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On 25 Jan 2006 04:08:48 -0800, "maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> enriched this
group when s/he wrote:
Ye Old One wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006 05:32:55 -0800, "maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> enriched this
group when s/he wrote:
Acupuncture 'deactivates brain'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
Acupuncture works by deactivating the area of the brain governing pain,
a TV show will claim.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Tuesday's programme - the first of three on complementary medicine -
will show researchers carrying out brain scans on people having
acupuncture.
Just watched it. Very well made programme and very interesting.
As they're wont to say in Edinburgh, you'll have had your chi
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/54861.html
IAN BELL
Alternative Medicine, BBC2, 9.00pm
Shameless, Channel 4, 10.00pm
Professor Kathy Sykes had a point. In fact, she had several points. No,
you're right: there must be an acupuncture treatment available to help
alleviate the pain of terrible acupuncture jokes.
For those of us of a non-scientific - that would be "pig-ignorant"
- bent, nevertheless, there is something about the 2000-year-old
Chinese therapy that causes a kind of inner rebellion. Pleasingly,
Professor Sykes seemed to feel the same way. How on earth could turning
yourself into a pin-cushion cure every ailment known to man?
What she showed was that it can't.
However, it does seem to have some very real effect on pain levels.
--
Bob.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Acupuncture 'deactivates brain' |
25 Jan 2006 01:21:34 PM |
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Ye Old One wrote:
What she showed was that it can't.
However, it does seem to have some very real effect on pain levels.
None that can't be explained by endorphin release (which is the most likely
cause of the placebo effect) which can be triggered by pinching.
Studies have shown that no two people will place the needles in the same
spots on the same person and that placing needles in other than what the
charts show produce the same results.
The results tend to be the same even if the needles are *not* inserted.
"Two scientists at the University of Heidelberg have developed a "fake
needle" that may enable acupuncture researchers to perform better-designed
controlled studies. The device is a needle with a blunt tip that moves
freely within a copper handle. When the tip touches the skin, the patient
feels a sensation similar to that of an acupuncture needle. At the same
time, the visible part of the needle moves inside the handle so it appears
to shorten as though penetrating the skin. When the device was tested on
volunteers, none suspected that it had not penetrated the skin [10].
In 2004, a University of Heidelberg team proved the worth of their "sham
acupuncture" technique in a study of postoperative nausea and vomiting
(PONV) in women who underwent breast or gynecologic surgery. The study
involved 220 women who received either acupuncture or the sham procedure at
the acupuncture point "Pericardium 6" on the inside of the forearm. No
significant difference in PONV or antivomiting medication use was found
between the two groups or between the people who received treatment before
anesthesia was induced and those who received it while anesthetized [11]. A
subgroup analysis found that vomiting was "significantly reduced" among the
acupuncture patients, but the authors correctly noted that this finding
might be due to studying multiple outcomes. (As the number of different
outcome measures increases, so do the odds that a "statistically
significant" finding will be spurious.) This study is important because PONV
reduction is one of the few alleged benefits of acupuncture supported by
reports in scientific journals. However, the other positive studies were not
as tightly controlled.."
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html
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