| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Truth Hunter" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2005 06:48:01 AM |
| Object: |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God =3D Atonement
God created A&E beings knowing from the start that they would not
please him. And when they would not please him, he knew he would have
to arrange to have the humans torture and kill him/God in the form of
Jesus so that he could forgive them for being the way he created them
to be and the way he knew they would be from the beginning. And he
knew, at the beginning, that if people did not accept that he would do
something so utterly ridiculous, he would have to cast them into hell
where they would weep and gnash their teeth in a lake of fire forever.
All this to please his own fragile ego, apparently.
This is the most ridiculous concept I have ever been asked to accept,
and I don't accept it. I cannot accept that an all knowing, all
perfect, all good God would be such a sadistic idiot. Apparently
Christians can.
God sacrificed himself to himself to satisfy his anger and human beings
for being exactly the way he created them to be and for being exactly
the way he knew they would be from the beginnning of time. And yet God
now threatens to torture people for eternity if they don't believe that
he is stupid enough to do something like this.
It constantly amazes me that Christians can pretend that this makes
some kind of sense.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)
.
|
|
| User: "Dave Lister" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
12 Apr 2005 10:06:53 AM |
|
|
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:llcn51lk269vvbgrjq344ra99lbh4qb4j4@4ax.com:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:10:51 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:55ok51tvat83hc6g5pjc4fh8krvadfuo3d@4ax.com:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:51:56 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2lqh515mqg6agk5tcim4mkughoqejj50e7@4ax.com:
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 17:31:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:bs2f51dogvtafg0d5e4nuq18plt1q96kq6@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:37:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:f4nd51hau2knvpr8h25mesvavrl7v2uu5n@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric
Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam
and
Eve
to eat from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they
were
doing
wrong before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't
resist
the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they
didn't
know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become
like
one
of us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he
puts
out
his hand and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he
will
go
on
living for ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that they
had
no
knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of
good
and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and
what
is
evil without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true. Your teaching them right from wrong is based on
their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Otherwise
you won't be able to teach them anything.
You are a fool. Dogs have zero sense of right and wrong. They
only
know
reward and punishment.
Their reaction to reward and punishment is their sense of right
and
wrong.
It is not a moral judgment, loon. It is a simple statement of
like/dislike.
I'm not talking about moral judgment in this case. Good/evil is
not
limited to moral judgment only.
Of course it is. Where do you come up with this crap?
Moral judgment is only a mental projection or reflection of
good/evil.
It is not the good/evil itself. Therefore, no moral judgment doesn't
mean no good/evil.
The reasons for the rules will be forever unknown
by the dog.
They don't have to care.
That is why they have no morals.
They have their own morals.
They have no morals, loon. You are trying to redefine the word to
mena
something it doesn't.
They don't have *your* morals, but as intelligent life, they follow
their own morals. Morality is not something only known to humans.
Yes, it is, idiot. Go trying that ***** to a biologist or even an Xian
preacher.
If you insist, then only humans are capable to corrupt the moral of
their life, all the rest living creatures can only follow the moral
that was given to them by God.
Animals don't have moral, idiot.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
12 Apr 2005 11:07:24 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:06:53 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:llcn51lk269vvbgrjq344ra99lbh4qb4j4@4ax.com:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:10:51 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:55ok51tvat83hc6g5pjc4fh8krvadfuo3d@4ax.com:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:51:56 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2lqh515mqg6agk5tcim4mkughoqejj50e7@4ax.com:
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 17:31:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:bs2f51dogvtafg0d5e4nuq18plt1q96kq6@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:37:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:f4nd51hau2knvpr8h25mesvavrl7v2uu5n@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric
Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam
and
Eve
to eat from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they
were
doing
wrong before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't
resist
the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they
didn't
know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become
like
one
of us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he
puts
out
his hand and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he
will
go
on
living for ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that they
had
no
knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of
good
and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and
what
is
evil without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true. Your teaching them right from wrong is based on
their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Otherwise
you won't be able to teach them anything.
You are a fool. Dogs have zero sense of right and wrong. They
only
know
reward and punishment.
Their reaction to reward and punishment is their sense of right
and
wrong.
It is not a moral judgment, loon. It is a simple statement of
like/dislike.
I'm not talking about moral judgment in this case. Good/evil is
not
limited to moral judgment only.
Of course it is. Where do you come up with this crap?
Moral judgment is only a mental projection or reflection of
good/evil.
It is not the good/evil itself. Therefore, no moral judgment doesn't
mean no good/evil.
The reasons for the rules will be forever unknown
by the dog.
They don't have to care.
That is why they have no morals.
They have their own morals.
They have no morals, loon. You are trying to redefine the word to
mena
something it doesn't.
They don't have *your* morals, but as intelligent life, they follow
their own morals. Morality is not something only known to humans.
Yes, it is, idiot. Go trying that ***** to a biologist or even an Xian
preacher.
If you insist, then only humans are capable to corrupt the moral of
their life, all the rest living creatures can only follow the moral
that was given to them by God.
Animals don't have moral, idiot.
They don't have your moral, but they have their own moral.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Lister" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
12 Apr 2005 11:37:58 PM |
|
|
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:s46p51hobrpl36p1p9aqep7hp9sq3kue9h@4ax.com:
On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:06:53 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:llcn51lk269vvbgrjq344ra99lbh4qb4j4@4ax.com:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:10:51 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:55ok51tvat83hc6g5pjc4fh8krvadfuo3d@4ax.com:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:51:56 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2lqh515mqg6agk5tcim4mkughoqejj50e7@4ax.com:
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 17:31:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:bs2f51dogvtafg0d5e4nuq18plt1q96kq6@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:37:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:f4nd51hau2knvpr8h25mesvavrl7v2uu5n@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric
Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam
and
Eve
to eat from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they
were
doing
wrong before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't
resist
the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they
didn't
know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become
like
one
of us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he
puts
out
his hand and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he
will
go
on
living for ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that
they
had
no
knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of
good
and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and
what
is
evil without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach
it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true. Your teaching them right from wrong is based on
their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Otherwise
you won't be able to teach them anything.
You are a fool. Dogs have zero sense of right and wrong. They
only
know
reward and punishment.
Their reaction to reward and punishment is their sense of
right
and
wrong.
It is not a moral judgment, loon. It is a simple statement of
like/dislike.
I'm not talking about moral judgment in this case. Good/evil is
not
limited to moral judgment only.
Of course it is. Where do you come up with this crap?
Moral judgment is only a mental projection or reflection of
good/evil.
It is not the good/evil itself. Therefore, no moral judgment
doesn't
mean no good/evil.
The reasons for the rules will be forever unknown
by the dog.
They don't have to care.
That is why they have no morals.
They have their own morals.
They have no morals, loon. You are trying to redefine the word to
mena
something it doesn't.
They don't have *your* morals, but as intelligent life, they
follow
their own morals. Morality is not something only known to humans.
Yes, it is, idiot. Go trying that ***** to a biologist or even an
Xian
preacher.
If you insist, then only humans are capable to corrupt the moral of
their life, all the rest living creatures can only follow the moral
that was given to them by God.
Animals don't have moral, idiot.
They don't have your moral, but they have their own moral.
They don't have any morals, idiot.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 04:14:22 PM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:41:59 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve to eat
from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were doing wrong
before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become like one of
us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he puts out his hand
and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go on living for
ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that they had no
knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of good and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and what is evil
without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true.
Yes, it is true. I've owned dogs. Dogs have no innate moral
system.
Your teaching them right from wrong is based on their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Normally: reward = pleasure
punishment = pain
Doesn't take much for an animal to know pleasure and pain.
Pretty rudimentary.
Didja have anything else?
Don
.
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 04:09:45 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:14:22 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:41:59 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve to eat
from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were doing wrong
before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become like one of
us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he puts out his hand
and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go on living for
ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that they had no
knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of good and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and what is evil
without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true.
Yes, it is true. I've owned dogs. Dogs have no innate moral
system.
That depends on how you define moral system. There are different moral
systems either from dog's eyes or from human's eyes.
Your teaching them right from wrong is based on their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Normally: reward = pleasure
punishment = pain
Doesn't take much for an animal to know pleasure and pain.
Pretty rudimentary.
Didja have anything else?
If you can recognize that a dog can tell the difference between
pleasure and pain, you know the dog is telling you what they know
about good and evil with their own particular expression.
Don
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Lister" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 12:30:17 PM |
|
|
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:8i2f515um8jtvokbdqs411uld8do3dkped@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:14:22 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:41:59 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve
to eat from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were
doing wrong before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't
know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become like one
of us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he puts out
his hand and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go
on living for ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that they had
no knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of good and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and what is
evil without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true.
Yes, it is true. I've owned dogs. Dogs have no innate moral
system.
That depends on how you define moral system. There are different moral
systems either from dog's eyes or from human's eyes.
Your teaching them right from wrong is based on their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Normally: reward = pleasure
punishment = pain
Doesn't take much for an animal to know pleasure and pain.
Pretty rudimentary.
Didja have anything else?
If you can recognize that a dog can tell the difference between
pleasure and pain, you know the dog is telling you what they know
about good and evil with their own particular expression.
Nonsense. Morality has a compoenent of being empathetic towards other
peoples' pain and happiness. A dog has no conception.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
10 Apr 2005 05:23:18 AM |
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On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 17:30:17 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:8i2f515um8jtvokbdqs411uld8do3dkped@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:14:22 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:41:59 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve
to eat from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were
doing wrong before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't
know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become like one
of us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he puts out
his hand and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go
on living for ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that they had
no knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of good and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and what is
evil without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true.
Yes, it is true. I've owned dogs. Dogs have no innate moral
system.
That depends on how you define moral system. There are different moral
systems either from dog's eyes or from human's eyes.
Your teaching them right from wrong is based on their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Normally: reward = pleasure
punishment = pain
Doesn't take much for an animal to know pleasure and pain.
Pretty rudimentary.
Didja have anything else?
If you can recognize that a dog can tell the difference between
pleasure and pain, you know the dog is telling you what they know
about good and evil with their own particular expression.
Nonsense. Morality has a compoenent of being empathetic towards other
peoples' pain and happiness. A dog has no conception.
A dog doesn't need any conceptualized thinking to know you are
happy/sad when you are happy/sad. I'm sure any dog owner can tell you
that.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 08:18:44 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Sat, 09 Apr 2005 05:09:45 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:14:22 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:41:59 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:47 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:32:02 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:33:20 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:r68c5114ntdo4so6acpf85gkjalstjftde@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve to eat
from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were doing wrong
before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Now the man has become like one of
us, having knowledge of good and evil; and now if he puts out his hand
and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go on living for
ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yes, loon. Before this point the verse makes clear that they had no
knowledge of good and evil.
That depends on how you define as having the knowledge of good and
evil. In my opinion, even your dog knows what is good and what is evil
without the need to make any moral judgement.
But only after you punish it/reward it. You must teach it
right from wrong. It has no innate moral system.
Not true.
Yes, it is true. I've owned dogs. Dogs have no innate moral
system.
That depends on how you define moral system.
No, it doesn't.
Your teaching them right from wrong is based on their
ability to know that reward is good and punishment is bad.
Normally: reward = pleasure
punishment = pain
Doesn't take much for an animal to know pleasure and pain.
Pretty rudimentary.
Didja have anything else?
If you can recognize that a dog can tell the difference between
pleasure and pain, you know the dog is telling you what they know
about good and evil with their own particular expression.
Non sequitur.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 07:17:33 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 02:17:50 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve to eat
from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were doing wrong
before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, *Now the man has become like one of
us, having knowledge of good and evil;* and now if he puts out his hand
and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go on living for
ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yep. I highlighted the relevant part. The part where god says
that as a result of eating the fruit, Adam and Eve *NOW* know good
from evil. The implication is that *BEFORE* they ate the fruit, they
*DIDN'T* know good from evil.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 07:53:47 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 07:17:33 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 02:17:50 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve to eat
from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were doing wrong
before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, *Now the man has become like one of
us, having knowledge of good and evil;* and now if he puts out his hand
and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go on living for
ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yep. I highlighted the relevant part. The part where god says
that as a result of eating the fruit, Adam and Eve *NOW* know good
from evil. The implication is that *BEFORE* they ate the fruit, they
*DIDN'T* know good from evil.
They might not know how to judge good and evil, but they never had any
problem to *know* good and evil. And the proof of that is Gen 3:6
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Therefore, the ability to judge good and evil is not essential to know
good and evil. In fact, it's an extra which only brings sorrow to
life. That is why the Bible teaches us not to judge.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 05:28:37 PM |
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 07:17:33 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 08 Apr 2005 02:17:50 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:09:21 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:10:57 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:09:12 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:nqf951t8bgjsh7hsrfv579jakjbklup5co@4ax.com:
Obviously, it was our own choice. Nobody forced Adam and Eve to eat
from the tree of knowledge.
The fable is flawed. A & E had no knowledge that they were doing wrong
before they ate.
Not true. They knew it was wrong, but they couldn't resist the
temptation.
Nope. Gen 3:22 makes it perfectly clear that they didn't know
that it was wrong.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, *Now the man has become like one of
us, having knowledge of good and evil;* and now if he puts out his hand
and takes of the fruit of the tree of life, he will go on living for
ever.
Strange. Are you sure it's Gen 3:22?
Yep. I highlighted the relevant part. The part where god says
that as a result of eating the fruit, Adam and Eve *NOW* know good
from evil. The implication is that *BEFORE* they ate the fruit, they
*DIDN'T* know good from evil.
They might not know how to judge good and evil, but they never had any
problem to *know* good and evil. And the proof of that is Gen 3:6
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit.
Perhaps they only knew good since evil is not mentioned in that passage?
The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Apparently, knowledge of good and evil is not sufficient to judging what is
good and evil. Do you suppose God saw that one coming?
Therefore, the ability to judge good and evil is not essential to know
good and evil. In fact, it's an extra which only brings sorrow to
life. That is why the Bible teaches us not to judge.
Ok folks this is the one that does it for me, I'm outta here.
Tom
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 10:32:33 AM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you loon,
she is making a determination of edibility.
--
DWA should be a felony.
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| User: "Proshome" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 12:55:24 PM |
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Dear Eric:
Before she ate the fruit she surly new the "Good" but maybe not the "evil".
Your reference doesn't mention that she new the "evil". The results of her
disobedience to the command that her mate surely taught her, brought on the
evil. Please note how she "stretches things" buy adding "not even to touch"
it. Typical female reaction :-). IMHO, that "apple" was probably an
aphrodisiac type fruit. Since that sexual urge is in most all of mankind,
it's effect has awakened much of humanity and therefore has been transmitted
throughout all of mankind at one time or other.
--
simply "Christian"
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96325690C61B8retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you loon,
she is making a determination of edibility.
--
DWA should be a felony.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 11:11:24 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you loon,
she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 04:30:47 PM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you loon,
she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible decision as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and evil before
eating from the tree.
--
DWA should be a felony.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 04:09:42 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you loon,
she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible decision as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and evil before
eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment", but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree. All life forms demonstrate certain level of
intelligence. In animal kingdom, we call it animal instinct. To Adam
and Eve, their natural instinct is their sense of good and evil before
eating from the tree of knowledge.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 06:19:43 PM |
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ot5f51946d06ck5lo4qnr5dpmb4fvrkrk6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you loon,
she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible decision
as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and evil before
eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment", but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree.
What is the difference between " sense of good and evil" and "moral
judgement" ?
All life forms demonstrate certain level of
intelligence. In animal kingdom, we call it animal instinct. To Adam
and Eve, their natural instinct is their sense of good and evil before
eating from the tree of knowledge.
Since when are apples bad by nature?
Tom
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
10 Apr 2005 05:23:16 AM |
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On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:19:43 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ot5f51946d06ck5lo4qnr5dpmb4fvrkrk6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and a
delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took of
its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before they
ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the fruit, they had
no ability to judge good and evil by themselves, after they ate the
fruit, they became like God and were able to judge good and evil all
by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you loon,
she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible decision
as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and evil before
eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment", but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree.
What is the difference between " sense of good and evil" and "moral
judgement" ?
Sense of good and evil is like a natural instinct that is not
associated with any predetermined mental concept. Moral judgment is a
thinking process that involves mental projection and determination.
Sense of good and evil comes naturally by birth. Moral judgment is a
product of later education.
All life forms demonstrate certain level of
intelligence. In animal kingdom, we call it animal instinct. To Adam
and Eve, their natural instinct is their sense of good and evil before
eating from the tree of knowledge.
Since when are apples bad by nature?
Tom
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
10 Apr 2005 12:55:08 PM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hmoh51dtomlt17q7005e4o41rfnbpv2uvi@4ax.com:
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:19:43 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ot5f51946d06ck5lo4qnr5dpmb4fvrkrk6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,
and a delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise,
she took of its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before
they ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the
fruit, they had no ability to judge good and evil by themselves,
after they ate the fruit, they became like God and were able to
judge good and evil all by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you
loon, she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible
decision as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and evil
before eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment", but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree.
What is the difference between " sense of good and evil" and "moral
judgement" ?
Sense of good and evil is like a natural instinct that is not
associated with any predetermined mental concept. Moral judgment is a
thinking process that involves mental projection and determination.
Sense of good and evil comes naturally by birth. Moral judgment is a
product of later education.
Non-fucking-sense. Babies are born with no sense of good and evil at
all, and believe the world exists only to satisy their needs. I don't
know where you come up with this crap, but it is clear you don't have a
clue in hell.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
10 Apr 2005 04:30:54 PM |
|
|
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96346EC044416retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hmoh51dtomlt17q7005e4o41rfnbpv2uvi@4ax.com:
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:19:43 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ot5f51946d06ck5lo4qnr5dpmb4fvrkrk6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,
and a delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise,
she took of its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before
they ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the
fruit, they had no ability to judge good and evil by themselves,
after they ate the fruit, they became like God and were able to
judge good and evil all by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you
loon, she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible
decision as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and evil
before eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment", but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree.
What is the difference between " sense of good and evil" and "moral
judgement" ?
Sense of good and evil is like a natural instinct that is not
associated with any predetermined mental concept. Moral judgment is a
thinking process that involves mental projection and determination.
Sense of good and evil comes naturally by birth. Moral judgment is a
product of later education.
Non-fucking-sense. Babies are born with no sense of good and evil at
all, and believe the world exists only to satisy their needs. I don't
know where you come up with this crap, but it is clear you don't have a
clue in hell.
--
DWA should be a felony.
To the point. Totally agree.
Tom
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
11 Apr 2005 06:21:54 AM |
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|
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:55:08 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hmoh51dtomlt17q7005e4o41rfnbpv2uvi@4ax.com:
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:19:43 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ot5f51946d06ck5lo4qnr5dpmb4fvrkrk6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,
and a delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise,
she took of its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil before
they ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the
fruit, they had no ability to judge good and evil by themselves,
after they ate the fruit, they became like God and were able to
judge good and evil all by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree you
loon, she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible
decision as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and evil
before eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment", but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree.
What is the difference between " sense of good and evil" and "moral
judgement" ?
Sense of good and evil is like a natural instinct that is not
associated with any predetermined mental concept. Moral judgment is a
thinking process that involves mental projection and determination.
Sense of good and evil comes naturally by birth. Moral judgment is a
product of later education.
Non-fucking-sense. Babies are born with no sense of good and evil at
all, and believe the world exists only to satisy their needs. I don't
know where you come up with this crap, but it is clear you don't have a
clue in hell.
The sense of good and evil among babies is their natural instinct. I'm
not talking about moral judgment in this case. They are different.
.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
11 Apr 2005 10:07:23 AM |
|
|
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:qukk515hon9o5ocs2pohdn16289gcl0afs@4ax.com:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:55:08 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hmoh51dtomlt17q7005e4o41rfnbpv2uvi@4ax.com:
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:19:43 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ot5f51946d06ck5lo4qnr5dpmb4fvrkrk6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for
food,
and a delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise,
she took of its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil
before
they ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the
fruit, they had no ability to judge good and evil by
themselves,
after they ate the fruit, they became like God and were able
to
judge good and evil all by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree
you
loon, she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible
decision as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and
evil
before eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment",
but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree.
What is the difference between " sense of good and evil" and "moral
judgement" ?
Sense of good and evil is like a natural instinct that is not
associated with any predetermined mental concept. Moral judgment is
a
thinking process that involves mental projection and determination.
Sense of good and evil comes naturally by birth. Moral judgment is a
product of later education.
Non-fucking-sense. Babies are born with no sense of good and evil at
all, and believe the world exists only to satisy their needs. I don't
know where you come up with this crap, but it is clear you don't have
a
clue in hell.
The sense of good and evil among babies is their natural instinct. I'm
not talking about moral judgment in this case. They are different.
Quit using words associated with moral judgement in amoral situations.
It just makes you look like an idiot.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
12 Apr 2005 06:51:34 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:07:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:qukk515hon9o5ocs2pohdn16289gcl0afs@4ax.com:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:55:08 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hmoh51dtomlt17q7005e4o41rfnbpv2uvi@4ax.com:
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:19:43 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ot5f51946d06ck5lo4qnr5dpmb4fvrkrk6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:30:47 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:7oad51tefkf19es9gjvttvv83ebv6hjen3@4ax.com:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:32:33 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:okuc511g9hpgste4pphkvvrfjl0ceima01@4ax.com:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for
food,
and a delight to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise,
she took of its fruit, and gave it to her husband.
This is the proof that Adam and Eve *knew* good and evil
before
they ate the fruit. The difference is, before they ate the
fruit, they had no ability to judge good and evil by
themselves,
after they ate the fruit, they became like God and were able
to
judge good and evil all by themselves.
Crappola. The woman isn't making a moral judgement of the tree
you
loon, she is making a determination of edibility.
Correct. I think that is my point.
No, loon, it isn't. You are trying to use Eve's edible/inedible
decision as
evidence that she knew good/evil. Eve had no sense of good and
evil
before eating from the tree.
I agree Eve had no ability to make independent "moral judgment",
but
that does not mean Eve had no sense of good and evil before eating
from the tree.
What is the difference between " sense of good and evil" and "moral
judgement" ?
Sense of good and evil is like a natural instinct that is not
associated with any predetermined mental concept. Moral judgment is
a
thinking process that involves mental projection and determination.
Sense of good and evil comes naturally by birth. Moral judgment is a
product of later education.
Non-fucking-sense. Babies are born with no sense of good and evil at
all, and believe the world exists only to satisy their needs. I don't
know where you come up with this crap, but it is clear you don't have
a
clue in hell.
The sense of good and evil among babies is their natural instinct. I'm
not talking about moral judgment in this case. They are different.
Quit using words associated with moral judgement in amoral situations.
It just makes you look like an idiot.
It's a mistake to think good and evil is all about moral judgment.
It's not.
.
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|
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
12 Apr 2005 10:07:32 AM |
|
|
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b4cn51lirekctu01sgce75taq6c6i2682p@4ax.com:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:07:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.co | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
