Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Truth Hunter"
Date:	28 Mar 2005 06:48:01 AM
Object:	Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement

Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God =3D Atonement
God created A&E beings knowing from the start that they would not
please him. And when they would not please him, he knew he would have
to arrange to have the humans torture and kill him/God in the form of
Jesus so that he could forgive them for being the way he created them
to be and the way he knew they would be from the beginning. And he
knew, at the beginning, that if people did not accept that he would do
something so utterly ridiculous, he would have to cast them into hell
where they would weep and gnash their teeth in a lake of fire forever.
All this to please his own fragile ego, apparently.
This is the most ridiculous concept I have ever been asked to accept,
and I don't accept it. I cannot accept that an all knowing, all
perfect, all good God would be such a sadistic idiot. Apparently
Christians can.
God sacrificed himself to himself to satisfy his anger and human beings
for being exactly the way he created them to be and for being exactly
the way he knew they would be from the beginnning of time. And yet God
now threatens to torture people for eternity if they don't believe that
he is stupid enough to do something like this.
It constantly amazes me that Christians can pretend that this makes
some kind of sense.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)
.

User: "The Great Hairy One"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	18 Apr 2005 05:44:25 AM

In article <qjq561p0a4or9808cfmc2a4hun5dlgjblt@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,

Of course he felt pain, unbearable pain,

So he wasn't a god-thingy then, was he?

but he was able to endure the
pain without the thought of suffering. That is how he could take it to
the end, and that is also the mission of crucifixion. The purpose of
God sending Jesus to die on the cross is to show us that there is a
way to separate pain from suffering.

So it wasn't to die for your sins?

Once we can understand that our
pain is not the cause of our suffering, and we can take the pain
without the suffering, we will be able to realize the end of
suffering. I think this is the meaning of redeeming sacrifice, the end
of suffering for all.

You realise that buddhism probably covers this better than christianity,
right?
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	18 Apr 2005 08:54:26 AM

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:44:25 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:

In article <qjq561p0a4or9808cfmc2a4hun5dlgjblt@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...

Gidday Eric,

Of course he felt pain, unbearable pain,

So he wasn't a god-thingy then, was he?

Why? Because God is incapable to feel pain? I disagree.

So it wasn't to die for your sins?

Jesus died for our sins, but there is a deeper meaning of it.
Salvation is not magic, and salvation is always better than magic.

You realise that buddhism probably covers this better than christianity,
right?

No. How is Buddhism better than Christianity if not the same? From
what I have learned so far, they are all the same.

Cheers,
TGHO

User: "DanielSan"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	18 Apr 2005 06:25:59 PM

Eric Brze wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:44:25 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:

In article <qjq561p0a4or9808cfmc2a4hun5dlgjblt@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...

Gidday Eric,

Of course he felt pain, unbearable pain,

So he wasn't a god-thingy then, was he?

Why? Because God is incapable to feel pain? I disagree.

Disagreement is irrelevant. God does not exist.

So it wasn't to die for your sins?

Jesus died for our sins, but there is a deeper meaning of it.

Jesus died for our sins? What sins? Did Jesus know beforehand what I'm
going to do 2,000 years later? Was he psychic? No. This is a
ludicrous made-up story cobbled together from older stories.
Show me Pilate's crucifixion order. Even with that, you'll have a hard
time getting me to believe that he "died for our sins that we haven't
even done yet".
Besides, the Bible doesn't apply to me. I'm not Jewish. :-D

Salvation is not magic, and salvation is always better than magic.

Because magic is simply that which cannot be explained. Salvation
doesn't exist at all.

You realise that buddhism probably covers this better than christianity,
right?

No. How is Buddhism better than Christianity if not the same? From
what I have learned so far, they are all the same.

Yes. They're all equally bunk.
.

User: "The Great Hairy One"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	19 Apr 2005 04:48:22 AM

In article <btb761pdki0cbfuf1bctrp3u2ho6i3h2lu@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,

Why? Because God is incapable to feel pain? I disagree.

How can a christian-style god-concept feel pain? Pain is a warning of
danger, of possible death or trauma and injury. How can a christian-
style god-concept be killed or injured?

Jesus died for our sins, but there is a deeper meaning of it.

*Your* sins mate. And how does a mythical construction "die" anyway?

Salvation is not magic, and salvation is always better than magic.

Magic?? Where did that come into it??

No. How is Buddhism better than Christianity if not the same? From
what I have learned so far, they are all the same.

Hmmm, you're not a christian? You'd accept any path to the mountain-top?
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	19 Apr 2005 10:03:22 AM

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:48:22 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:

In article <btb761pdki0cbfuf1bctrp3u2ho6i3h2lu@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...

Gidday Eric,

Why? Because God is incapable to feel pain? I disagree.

How can a christian-style god-concept feel pain? Pain is a warning of
danger, of possible death or trauma and injury. How can a christian-
style god-concept be killed or injured?

First, God is not a concept. Second, Jesus Christ was a person on
earth with flesh and blood, therefore, he must have felt pain just
like any other human being.

Jesus died for our sins, but there is a deeper meaning of it.

*Your* sins mate. And how does a mythical construction "die" anyway?

Yes, my sins. The reason Jesus went to the cross was to help me away
from my sins. He did die and he did rise again. That is why I have
faith in him.

Salvation is not magic, and salvation is always better than magic.

Magic?? Where did that come into it??

Nowhere. I just don't want people to take salvation as some kind of
magic. It is not. It is serious spiritual practice in real life.

No. How is Buddhism better than Christianity if not the same? From
what I have learned so far, they are all the same.

Hmmm, you're not a christian? You'd accept any path to the mountain-top?

I'm not a Christian, but I'm a believer of God. I would accept any
path to the mountain top, but I know there is only one path with many
names and many descriptions to the mountain top. That path is the
Christ in our heart.

Cheers,
TGHO

User: "The Great Hairy One"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	21 Apr 2005 04:04:27 PM

In article <pk6a61lplgcr34fa1bmctg9kjqnfduh8od@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,

First, God is not a concept.

This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure. There
is no evidence to support such a concept actually existing. Until such
evidence is provided, I'll continue to see this as a human created
explanation for the currently unexplainable.

Second, Jesus Christ was a person on
earth with flesh and blood, therefore, he must have felt pain just
like any other human being.

So the jesus-myth wasn't divine then?
Look, it's one or the other. A divine being or a human. Can't be both at
the same time.

Yes, my sins. The reason Jesus went to the cross was to help me away
from my sins. He did die and he did rise again. That is why I have
faith in him.

I'll accept that. :)

Nowhere. I just don't want people to take salvation as some kind of
magic. It is not. It is serious spiritual practice in real life.

There are many serious spiritual practices in real life. Why is yours
different to any others?

So how do you feel about other belief systems which have no mention of
the jesus-myth?
Cheers,
TGHO

--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	22 Apr 2005 12:39:24 PM

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:04:27 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:

In article <pk6a61lplgcr34fa1bmctg9kjqnfduh8od@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...

Gidday Eric,

First, God is not a concept.

This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure.

It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.
There

is no evidence to support such a concept actually existing.

Of course, since it points to the spiritual world which can not be
perceived as any kind of concept.
Until such

evidence is provided, I'll continue to see this as a human created
explanation for the currently unexplainable.

That maybe what appears to you, but it's a lot more than that.

Second, Jesus Christ was a person on
earth with flesh and blood, therefore, he must have felt pain just
like any other human being.

So the jesus-myth wasn't divine then?

Jesus is divine not because he can't feel pain, but because he can
resist suffering.

Look, it's one or the other. A divine being or a human. Can't be both at
the same time.

That was before Jesus. Because of Jesus, a divine human being becomes
possible.

Yes, my sins. The reason Jesus went to the cross was to help me away
from my sins. He did die and he did rise again. That is why I have
faith in him.

I'll accept that. :)

Nowhere. I just don't want people to take salvation as some kind of
magic. It is not. It is serious spiritual practice in real life.

There are many serious spiritual practices in real life. Why is yours
different to any others?

I don't consider my practice any different from others. I just feel
I'm only one of the lucky ones.

So how do you feel about other belief systems which have no mention of
the jesus-myth?

They don't have to mention the person with the name Jesus, but their
teaching and practice should be centered to the heart, because that's
where Christ lives.

Cheers,
TGHO

User: "Don Kresch"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	22 Apr 2005 03:38:45 PM

In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:39:24 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:04:27 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:

In article <pk6a61lplgcr34fa1bmctg9kjqnfduh8od@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...

Gidday Eric,

First, God is not a concept.

This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure.

It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.

"Spiritual" is code for "made up *****".
Don
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	22 Apr 2005 09:13:13 PM

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:38:45 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:39:24 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:04:27 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:

In article <pk6a61lplgcr34fa1bmctg9kjqnfduh8od@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...

Gidday Eric,

First, God is not a concept.

This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure.

It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.

"Spiritual" is code for "made up *****".

To you? Of course. Otherwise, you wouldn't be a spiritual blind.

Don

User: "wcb"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	23 Apr 2005 06:30:39 PM

Eric Brze wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:38:45 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

****************

Gidday Eric,

First, God is not a concept.

This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure.

It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.

"Spiritual" is code for "made up *****".

To you? Of course. Otherwise, you wouldn't be a spiritual blind.

Spiritual is a word that apparently means superstitous.
There is no god.
That idea is a failed idea that is emminently debunkable.
******************************************************
God disproven - Free will disproof of God #1
William C. Barwell 3-8-05
******************************************************
1. Orthodox theology makes several very basic
dogmatic claims about god.
2. A. God is omnipotent
B. God is omniscient
C. God is omnibenevolent
D. God created the entire world
E. God is merciful
3. If god creates a world and everthing in it,
and he is omniscient, he knows everything that
is or will be in that Universe and any future
actions that will take place in that Universe.

4. He knows what a concious being will do in any possible
world he will create. If he creates a world that
at a future date has a man named John Smith, god
would know that there will indeed be a John Smith.
5. Being omniscient, he knows what Smith will do.
He will know in any possible world if Smith is good,
a believer and saved, or is evil and damned.
6. He would then have a choice. Create the contemplated
world with an evil Smith or not. He could easily
change his mind and create a world with a good Smith
instead. God may easily chose any world he wishes,
he has no constraints on his omnipotence.
7. Smith has no choice in the matter, he has no say in
being created, or being created as a good Smith or
an evil Smith. All choice is god's choice alone.
8. Thus Smith has no free will. If he is evil it is
solely because god made the concious and purposeful
decision to create an evil Smith who does moral evil.
Smith's actions, and all his intentions and mental states
are predetermined and created in actuality by god.
He can have no free will even in principle. God does
not create a Smith with free will and turn his loose
in an undetermined Universe. All real acts and all real
mental states of Smith have been considered by god, and
chosen from among many possiblibilities and purposefully
created by god to the smallest detail by god alone,
involving all time within Smith's life, second by second.
9. Nobody has free will. All decisions to create any
man or woman or other sentient beings, angels or devils,
that are good or evil are made by knowingly by god.
If any man or woman or being does moral evil it is
solely and only because god decided to create a world
where they exist and do evil and are damned.
All actions of these beings are specifically chosen
and created by god in the most finegrained manner
physically possible in any Universe God actually
creates, down to the smallest possible actually
existant quantum time and space scales in this world.
10 But god is alledegly omnibenevolent. That is all
good. If he creates men and women or beings who do
moral evil, moral evil exists solely and only because
god knowingly creates morally evil, sentient beings.
11. Since it is god who allows morally evil sentient beings
to exist, he is the creator and sustaining cause of
all moral evil in the Universe, and he could just as
easily created all men to do only moral good, but
specifically and purposefully chose not to do so.
12. Since free will is not possible for man, not even
in principle, there is no way to blame evil on man.
Smith if he is evil is evil because god created him
knowingly as a morally evil man. If he is good, he is
good only because god chose to create him good.
And thus no way to claim evil is necessary to allow for
free will which is a common theological claim.
Free will thus cannot be used to get god out of any
blame for existance of moral evil in the world.
13. An omnibenevolent god cannot, because he is indeed
omnibenevolent, create moral evil by definition.
14. Morally evil men and women exist.
15. Thus a god who is defined as being:
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnibenevolent
4. Creator of the entire world
5. Merciful
Cannot exist in a world where moral evil exists.
16. If such a god existed, free will cannot exist.
17. A god that creates a man as evil, then tortures him
for all eternity for evil acts god created him doing,
who could have made him good, made all his acts good,
created him good a believer and saved, is the one who
is evil, not the man so created evil who had no choice
in this at all. Such a god cannot be said to be
omnibenevolent nor merciful, probably cannot even
be claimed to be sane.
(End)
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	24 Apr 2005 12:15:34 PM

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:30:39 -0500, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:

******************************************************
God disproven - Free will disproof of God #1
William C. Barwell 3-8-05
******************************************************

1. Orthodox theology makes several very basic
dogmatic claims about god.

2. A. God is omnipotent
B. God is omniscient
C. God is omnibenevolent
D. God created the entire world
E. God is merciful

Correct.

3. If god creates a world and everthing in it,
and he is omniscient, he knows everything that
is or will be in that Universe and any future
actions that will take place in that Universe.

Correct.

4. He knows what a concious being will do in any possible
world he will create. If he creates a world that
at a future date has a man named John Smith, god
would know that there will indeed be a John Smith.

Correct.

5. Being omniscient, he knows what Smith will do.
He will know in any possible world if Smith is good,
a believer and saved, or is evil and damned.

Correct.

6. He would then have a choice. Create the contemplated
world with an evil Smith or not. He could easily
change his mind and create a world with a good Smith
instead. God may easily chose any world he wishes,
he has no constraints on his omnipotence.

This is wrong. God is good and nothing but good. When God creates the
world, it's always a world with everything that is good. Therefore,
God would never create a world with an evil Smith.

7. Smith has no choice in the matter, he has no say in
being created, or being created as a good Smith or
an evil Smith. All choice is god's choice alone.

In the world created by God, Smith is a good Smith. He doesn't need to
choose evil and will not choose evil in against his good nature which
God gave him. There is no evil Smith.

8. Thus Smith has no free will. If he is evil it is
solely because god made the concious and purposeful
decision to create an evil Smith who does moral evil.
Smith's actions, and all his intentions and mental states
are predetermined and created in actuality by god.
He can have no free will even in principle. God does
not create a Smith with free will and turn his loose
in an undetermined Universe. All real acts and all real
mental states of Smith have been considered by god, and
chosen from among many possiblibilities and purposefully
created by god to the smallest detail by god alone,
involving all time within Smith's life, second by second.

Everything you say is right except God will never create an evil
Smith.

9. Nobody has free will. All decisions to create any
man or woman or other sentient beings, angels or devils,
that are good or evil are made by knowingly by god.
If any man or woman or being does moral evil it is
solely and only because god decided to create a world
where they exist and do evil and are damned.
All actions of these beings are specifically chosen
and created by god in the most finegrained manner
physically possible in any Universe God actually
creates, down to the smallest possible actually
existant quantum time and space scales in this world.

In the original good world created by God, there was indeed no
freewill as there was no choice to choose evil.

10 But god is alledegly omnibenevolent. That is all
good. If he creates men and women or beings who do
moral evil, moral evil exists solely and only because
god knowingly creates morally evil, sentient beings.

This is wrong. God did not create men and women to do evil. Men and
women became evil when they have sinned in against God. Evil is never
the will of God. Evil is against the will of God.

11. Since it is god who allows morally evil sentient beings
to exist, he is the creator and sustaining cause of
all moral evil in the Universe, and he could just as
easily created all men to do only moral good, but
specifically and purposefully chose not to do so.

Wrong. The cause of moral evil is sin. The cause of moral good is God.
You are mixing them up. It wasn't that God did not create men and
women to do moral good. It was sin corrupted men and women which
caused them to do moral evil.

12. Since free will is not possible for man, not even
in principle, there is no way to blame evil on man.
Smith if he is evil is evil because god created him
knowingly as a morally evil man. If he is good, he is
good only because god chose to create him good.
And thus no way to claim evil is necessary to allow for
free will which is a common theological claim.
Free will thus cannot be used to get god out of any
blame for existance of moral evil in the world.

Since in the original good world of God, there wasn't any possibility
to choose evil, there wasn't any free will that is different from
God's will anyway. It was because of sin, there was a choice to choose
the will of sin other than the will of God. That was how free will
came into existence.

13. An omnibenevolent god cannot, because he is indeed
omnibenevolent, create moral evil by definition.

God creates evil by being good. It's because the will of God is good,
any other will that is different from God's will is evil. God does not
have to show conflicting will in order to create good and evil.

14. Morally evil men and women exist.

Yes, that's because of the sin.

15. Thus a god who is defined as being:
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnibenevolent
4. Creator of the entire world
5. Merciful
Cannot exist in a world where moral evil exists.

In the world of sin, there is no God. In the world of God, there is no
sin. If you want to emphasize that, then I agree.

16. If such a god existed, free will cannot exist.

In the world of God, everything shows the will of God. In the world of
sin, there is always a struggle between God's will and free will.

17. A god that creates a man as evil, then tortures him
for all eternity for evil acts god created him doing,
who could have made him good, made all his acts good,
created him good a believer and saved, is the one who
is evil, not the man so created evil who had no choice
in this at all. Such a god cannot be said to be
omnibenevolent nor merciful, probably cannot even
be claimed to be sane.

Since no man is created as evil by God, your entire logic doesn't
apply. Man is evil because man believes in sin instead of God. God
knows everything, but God is not responsible for man's own belief and
action.

(End)

User: "DanielSan"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	24 Apr 2005 01:28:30 PM

Eric Brze wrote:

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:30:39 -0500, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:

Correct.

3. If god creates a world and everthing in it,
and he is omniscient, he knows everything that
is or will be in that Universe and any future
actions that will take place in that Universe.

Correct.

5. Being omniscient, he knows what Smith will do.
He will know in any possible world if Smith is good,
a believer and saved, or is evil and damned.

Correct.

This is wrong. God is good and nothing but good. When God creates the
world, it's always a world with everything that is good. Therefore,
God would never create a world with an evil Smith.

So, God didn't create the Devil? God didn't create the snake that
"opened" Adam and Eve's eyes?
How much more didn't God create?

7. Smith has no choice in the matter, he has no say in
being created, or being created as a good Smith or
an evil Smith. All choice is god's choice alone.

In the world created by God, Smith is a good Smith. He doesn't need to
choose evil and will not choose evil in against his good nature which
God gave him. There is no evil Smith.

So, evil doesn't exist.

Everything you say is right except God will never create an evil
Smith.

Right, because there's no such thing as evil.

In the original good world created by God, there was indeed no
freewill as there was no choice to choose evil.

So, no free will in Adam and Eve? They were forced to eat the apple?

This is wrong. God did not create men and women to do evil. Men and
women became evil when they have sinned in against God. Evil is never
the will of God. Evil is against the will of God.

So, God created the capability of evil in his creation? That does not
mesh with what you said above -- that God would never create an evil Smith.

So, since God created everything, he also created the capability to sin.
Therefore, God created evil.

Free will means the capability to make decisions. If Adam and Eve did
not have free will, they were going to eat the apple anyway; whether
they liked it or not.

13. An omnibenevolent god cannot, because he is indeed
omnibenevolent, create moral evil by definition.

God creates evil by being good.

And war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ingorance is strength, right?
How can he create evil by being good?

It's because the will of God is good,
any other will that is different from God's will is evil. God does not
have to show conflicting will in order to create good and evil.

But, he gave us the capability to choose "God's will" or "not God's
will". Therefore, he created the possibility of an evil Smith.

14. Morally evil men and women exist.

Yes, that's because of the sin.

Evil Smith, eh?

15. Thus a god who is defined as being:
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnibenevolent
4. Creator of the entire world
5. Merciful
Cannot exist in a world where moral evil exists.

In the world of sin, there is no God. In the world of God, there is no
sin. If you want to emphasize that, then I agree.

So, there is no God, then? I mean, if I say there is no God, then I'm
being sinful because I'm rejecting God, so, therefore, he doesn't exist.
QED.

16. If such a god existed, free will cannot exist.

In the world of God, everything shows the will of God. In the world of
sin, there is always a struggle between God's will and free will.

Wait. You just said that in a world of sin, there is no God. Now
you're saying that a world of sin will have a struggle between God's
will and free will.
Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Sure he is, if he created us with the possibility of choosing free will
over God's will.
(Personally, I'd choose free will any day!)
.

User: "marika"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	24 Apr 2005 03:59:35 PM

DanielSan wrote:

So, God didn't create the Devil?

No I can't remember now. but I don't think that was him. But I
guess I could be wrong. I seem to remember it was more
obvious. kind of odd too,
wasn't he his favorite or something of all the angels? what day of the
week did god make angels. was it before or after the day he made
light? weren't angels creatures of light. I hope he made them before
he made light, and if not maybe that is why the devil was like not such
a good angel.
mk5000
"The monster with a hundred ears and eyes.
Yet you must love me.
Your monster, your baby,
Born the moment when the curtains rise."
--- from Michael John LaChiusa's "Two Joins Three"
.

User: "Don - - - - - ---"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	24 Apr 2005 07:51:39 PM

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:15:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

This is wrong. God is good and nothing but good. When God creates the
world, it's always a world with everything that is good. Therefore,
God would never create a world with an evil Smith.

This is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that NO MAN SEEKS GOD. The
Bible clearly teaches that there are NONE righteous, "no not one."
Romans3:10-18

In the world created by God, Smith is a good Smith.

This is wrong. There are NONE righteous. There is no "good Smith."
Romans3:10-18

He doesn't need to
choose evil and will not choose evil in against his good nature which
God gave him.

This is wrong. Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none
righteous, no, not one:"

There is no evil Smith.

This is wrong. There is no good Smith.
Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Everything you say is right except God will never create an evil
Smith.

Do you believe the Bible or do you believe platitudes?

Evil is never
the will of God. Evil is against the will of God.

Proverbs 21:1: "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of
the LORD; he turns it wherever he will."
Jeremiah 10:23: "I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."
Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will."
Jonathan Edwards said, "God decrees all things, even all sins."
Eric, do you believe that or not?

God creates evil by being good.

WHAT???

In the world of sin, there is no God. In the world of God, there is no
sin.

Define "in the world of sin."
Define "In the world of God."

In the world of God, everything shows the will of God. In the world of
sin, there is always a struggle between God's will and free will.

Re-read the above two requests.

God is not responsible for man's own belief and action.

That is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that God is responsible for
every belief and action of man, even to the point that man can NOT
begin to understand or comprehend it.
Jeremiah 10:23: "I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."
Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will."
Proverbs 20:24: "Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can
man understand his way?"
Eric, I think you seem to have a nice, middle-of-the-road belief
system...kind of a "feel good" belief system, but it isn't truly a
Biblical belief system.
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	24 Apr 2005 11:13:21 PM

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:15:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

This is wrong. God is good and nothing but good. When God creates the
world, it's always a world with everything that is good. Therefore,
God would never create a world with an evil Smith.

This is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that NO MAN SEEKS GOD. The
Bible clearly teaches that there are NONE righteous, "no not one."

I was talking about the original sinless world. You are talking about
the fallen world. Apples and oranges.

Romans3:10-18

In the world created by God, Smith is a good Smith.

This is wrong. There are NONE righteous. There is no "good Smith."

I was talking about the original sinless world.

Romans3:10-18

He doesn't need to
choose evil and will not choose evil in against his good nature which
God gave him.

This is wrong. Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none
righteous, no, not one:"

I was talking about the original sinless world.

There is no evil Smith.

This is wrong. There is no good Smith.

I was talking about the original sinless world.

Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Everything you say is right except God will never create an evil
Smith.

Do you believe the Bible or do you believe platitudes?

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

Evil is never
the will of God. Evil is against the will of God.

Proverbs 21:1: "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of
the LORD; he turns it wherever he will."

Jeremiah 10:23: "I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."

Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will."

Jonathan Edwards said, "God decrees all things, even all sins."

Eric, do you believe that or not?

What's your point?

God creates evil by being good.

WHAT???

God creates evil by being good.

In the world of sin, there is no God. In the world of God, there is no
sin.

Define "in the world of sin."

In the world of sin you ask me to prove God exists because you can not
find God. :-)

Define "In the world of God."

In the world of God, there is no suffering, no sin, happiness forever.

In the world of God, everything shows the will of God. In the world of
sin, there is always a struggle between God's will and free will.

Re-read the above two requests.

What's the problem?

God is not responsible for man's own belief and action.

That is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that God is responsible for
every belief and action of man, even to the point that man can NOT
begin to understand or comprehend it.

Then your understanding of the Bible must be wrong.

Jeremiah 10:23: "I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."

Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will."

Proverbs 20:24: "Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can
man understand his way?"

Eric, I think you seem to have a nice, middle-of-the-road belief
system...kind of a "feel good" belief system, but it isn't truly a
Biblical belief system.

Well, your misunderstanding of the Bible is not my problem. If you
can't prove me wrong without the Bible, I'm sure you can not prove me
wrong with the Bible either.

User: "Don - - - - - ---"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	25 Apr 2005 12:51:20 AM

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:15:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

This is wrong. God is good and nothing but good. When God creates the
world, it's always a world with everything that is good. Therefore,
God would never create a world with an evil Smith.

This is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that NO MAN SEEKS GOD. The
Bible clearly teaches that there are NONE righteous, "no not one."

I was talking about the original sinless world. You are talking about
the fallen world. Apples and oranges.

Where is the original sinless world?
Where is the fallen world?
What is the difference between the two?
When did God create the original sinless world?
When did God create the fallen world?

Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Everything you say is right except God will never create an evil
Smith.

Do you believe the Bible or do you believe platitudes?

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

Do you believe there are none righteous, no not one?

Evil is never
the will of God. Evil is against the will of God.

Proverbs 21:1: "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of
the LORD; he turns it wherever he will."

Jeremiah 10:23: "I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."

Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will."

Jonathan Edwards said, "God decrees all things, even all sins."

Eric, do you believe that or not?

What's your point?

Do you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His
will?
Do you believe that your heart is a stream of water in the hand of the
Lord, who turns your heart wherever he will?
Do you believe your way is not in yourself and that God directs your
steps?

God creates evil by being good.

WHAT???

God creates evil by being good.

I asked for clarification, not a repeat of a platitude.

In the world of sin, there is no God. In the world of God, there is no
sin.

Define "in the world of sin."

In the world of sin you ask me to prove God exists because you can not
find God. :-)

Let me repeat, since you obviously thought I said "Spout a platitude."
Please define "in the world of sin."

Define "In the world of God."

In the world of God, there is no suffering, no sin, happiness forever.

Again, I must repeat...Please define "in the world of God."

In the world of God, everything shows the will of God. In the world of
sin, there is always a struggle between God's will and free will.

Re-read the above two requests.

What's the problem?

You spout judgmental, empty platitudes and defined nothing.

God is not responsible for man's own belief and action.

That is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that God is responsible for
every belief and action of man, even to the point that man can NOT
begin to understand or comprehend it.

Then your understanding of the Bible must be wrong.

Why do you think you understand the Bible?
Do you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His
will?
Do you believe that your heart is a stream of water in the hand of the
Lord, who turns your heart wherever he will?
Do you believe your way is not in yourself and that God directs your
steps?

Well, your misunderstanding of the Bible is not my problem. If you
can't prove me wrong without the Bible, I'm sure you can not prove me
wrong with the Bible either.

So why do you think the Bible is irrelevant?
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	25 Apr 2005 09:36:17 PM

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 05:51:20 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:15:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

This is wrong. God is good and nothing but good. When God creates the
world, it's always a world with everything that is good. Therefore,
God would never create a world with an evil Smith.

This is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that NO MAN SEEKS GOD. The
Bible clearly teaches that there are NONE righteous, "no not one."

I was talking about the original sinless world. You are talking about
the fallen world. Apples and oranges.

Where is the original sinless world?

Right here in our heart.

Where is the fallen world?

Right here in our mind.

What is the difference between the two?

The sinless world is reality. The sinful world is illusion.

When did God create the original sinless world?

To you, from the day you were born.

When did God create the fallen world?

God did not create it. We did. Since the day we fell, we created the
fallen world by sinning.

Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Everything you say is right except God will never create an evil
Smith.

Do you believe the Bible or do you believe platitudes?

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

Do you believe there are none righteous, no not one?

In the fallen world, sure I do.

Evil is never
the will of God. Evil is against the will of God.

Proverbs 21:1: "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of
the LORD; he turns it wherever he will."

Jeremiah 10:23: "I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."

Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will."

Jonathan Edwards said, "God decrees all things, even all sins."

Eric, do you believe that or not?

What's your point?

Do you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His
will?

Do you believe that your heart is a stream of water in the hand of the
Lord, who turns your heart wherever he will?

Do you believe your way is not in yourself and that God directs your
steps?

What's your point?

God creates evil by being good.

WHAT???

God creates evil by being good.

I asked for clarification, not a repeat of a platitude.

I thought my original explanation was good enough. Because God's will
is good, any other will that is different from God's good will is
evil. When there is God who is good, by simple compassion, there is
evil. That is how God created evil.

In the world of sin, there is no God. In the world of God, there is no
sin.

Define "in the world of sin."

In the world of sin you ask me to prove God exists because you can not
find God. :-)

Let me repeat, since you obviously thought I said "Spout a platitude."

Please define "in the world of sin."

The world of sin is the world without God.

Define "In the world of God."

In the world of God, there is no suffering, no sin, happiness forever.

Again, I must repeat...Please define "in the world of God."

The world of God is the world without sin.

In the world of God, everything shows the will of God. In the world of
sin, there is always a struggle between God's will and free will.

Re-read the above two requests.

What's the problem?

You spout judgmental, empty platitudes and defined nothing.

I don't have to define anything. I simply describe what I know.

God is not responsible for man's own belief and action.

That is wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that God is responsible for
every belief and action of man, even to the point that man can NOT
begin to understand or comprehend it.

Then your understanding of the Bible must be wrong.

Why do you think you understand the Bible?

Because I have help from Jesus. :-)

Do you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His
will?

Do you believe that your heart is a stream of water in the hand of the
Lord, who turns your heart wherever he will?

Do you believe your way is not in yourself and that God directs your
steps?

So? what's your point?

Well, your misunderstanding of the Bible is not my problem. If you
can't prove me wrong without the Bible, I'm sure you can not prove me
wrong with the Bible either.

So why do you think the Bible is irrelevant?

I don't. I'm just confident about what I believe.

User: "thomas p"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	25 Apr 2005 10:35:07 AM

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

snip

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good. Free will does not really explain
away the problem. God, after all, has free will, but, being all
good, he would always freely choose to do good; just as any of his
creatures with free will would always freely choose to do good. That
would naturally apply to the angels as well as to men. The story is
contradictory from beginning to end.
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	25 Apr 2005 09:36:18 PM

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

snip

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil. After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Free will does not really explain

away the problem. God, after all, has free will, but, being all
good, he would always freely choose to do good; just as any of his
creatures with free will would always freely choose to do good. That
would naturally apply to the angels as well as to men. The story is
contradictory from beginning to end.

In my opinion, nobody would freely choose to do evil, as evil is
against God. The reason people sin and do evil is not because they
freely choose to sin and do evil. It's because they feel they have no
other choice under the threat of sin. Therefore, the so called "free
will to sin and do evil" is not really free at all. That's why I
believe free will is just an illusion.

snip

Thomas P.

"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"

(Kierkegaard)

User: "Don Kresch"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	26 Apr 2005 07:19:53 AM

In alt.atheism on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

snip

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil. After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.

....ergo, until they ate the fruit, Adam and Eve could not sin,
and in fact, not until the fruit was digested could they.
So how could a god create beings without a moral code and then
punish them when they obtained one? Isn't that monstrous?
If not, why not? Do parents not try to teach their children a
moral code? Why was god so afraid to impart a moral code to Adam and
Eve?
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	26 Apr 2005 10:30:55 PM

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:19:53 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

In alt.atheism on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

snip

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil. After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.

You are wrong to suggest Adam and Eve were created without a moral
code. Since Adam and Eve were created as perfect, they must had a
perfect God given moral code before they sinned.

Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.

"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"

User: "Woden"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	26 Apr 2005 11:03:28 PM

Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:6vut61l6hb880bfosvs5867g2ehsnh65f3@4ax.com:

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:19:53 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

In alt.atheism on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

snip

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil. After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.

You are wrong to suggest Adam and Eve were created without a moral
code. Since Adam and Eve were created as perfect, they must had a
perfect God given moral code before they sinned.

If they had a moral code, then they wouldn't have needed to eat the fruit
of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" and god couldn't have used it
for bait in his trap.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.

User: "Don Kresch"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	27 Apr 2005 07:20:05 AM

In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:55 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:19:53 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

In alt.atheism on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

snip

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil. After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.

You are wrong to suggest Adam and Eve were created without a moral
code.

No, I'm not. They didn't know good from evil, ergo they had no
moral code.
Any attempt to claim otherwise is a blatant LIE.

Since Adam and Eve were created as perfect, they must had a
perfect God given moral code before they sinned.

Liar.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement	27 Apr 2005 09:58:29 PM

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:20:05 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:55 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:19:53 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

In alt.atheism on Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:

snip

I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.

That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil. After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.

You are wrong to suggest Adam and Eve were created without a moral
code.

No, I'm not. They didn't know good from evil, ergo they had no
moral code.

Wrong. A perfect moral code does not have to be knowledge of the mind.
In fact, a perfect moral code is always more superior than the
knowledge of mind.

Any attempt to claim otherwise is a blatant LIE.

You are being ignorant.