| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Truth Hunter" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2005 06:48:01 AM |
| Object: |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God =3D Atonement
God created A&E beings knowing from the start that they would not
please him. And when they would not please him, he knew he would have
to arrange to have the humans torture and kill him/God in the form of
Jesus so that he could forgive them for being the way he created them
to be and the way he knew they would be from the beginning. And he
knew, at the beginning, that if people did not accept that he would do
something so utterly ridiculous, he would have to cast them into hell
where they would weep and gnash their teeth in a lake of fire forever.
All this to please his own fragile ego, apparently.
This is the most ridiculous concept I have ever been asked to accept,
and I don't accept it. I cannot accept that an all knowing, all
perfect, all good God would be such a sadistic idiot. Apparently
Christians can.
God sacrificed himself to himself to satisfy his anger and human beings
for being exactly the way he created them to be and for being exactly
the way he knew they would be from the beginnning of time. And yet God
now threatens to torture people for eternity if they don't believe that
he is stupid enough to do something like this.
It constantly amazes me that Christians can pretend that this makes
some kind of sense.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
26 Apr 2005 10:30:54 PM |
|
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Free will does not really explain
away the problem. God, after all, has free will, but, being all
good, he would always freely choose to do good; just as any of his
creatures with free will would always freely choose to do good. That
would naturally apply to the angels as well as to men. The story is
contradictory from beginning to end.
In my opinion, nobody would freely choose to do evil, as evil is
against God. The reason people sin and do evil is not because they
freely choose to sin and do evil. It's because they feel they have no
other choice under the threat of sin. Therefore, the so called "free
will to sin and do evil" is not really free at all. That's why I
believe free will is just an illusion.
I am sorry to point this out Eric, but the above makes no sense
what-so-ever. One cannot agree or disagree with it; it says nothing.
That's too bad. I thought I helped you to discredit the free will. :-)
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 AM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
|
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| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
27 Apr 2005 09:50:35 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
He is attempting to redefine reality to suit his needs; he will not
allow himself to see what he is doing.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
27 Apr 2005 09:58:28 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
Actually I have always insisted that in the original perfection,
Adam/Eve had the ability to know good and evil. The difference is,
that ability was not in the form of mental knowledge. It was natural
instinct.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
28 Apr 2005 12:02:11 AM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:58:28 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
Actually I have always insisted that in the original perfection,
Adam/Eve had the ability to know good and evil.
That, however, is not supported by the bible. Specifically, Gen
3:22 contradicts you.
The difference is,
that ability was not in the form of mental knowledge. It was natural
instinct.
So they knew, but didn't know. That's great, Eric. Way to
contradict yourself.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
|
|
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
28 Apr 2005 10:55:22 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:02:11 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:58:28 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
Actually I have always insisted that in the original perfection,
Adam/Eve had the ability to know good and evil.
That, however, is not supported by the bible. Specifically, Gen
3:22 contradicts you.
No, your interpretation of Gen 3:22 contradicts with my understanding.
The difference is,
that ability was not in the form of mental knowledge. It was natural
instinct.
So they knew, but didn't know. That's great, Eric. Way to
contradict yourself.
They knew it was wrong, but didn't know the consequence for being
wrong. There is no contradiction.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
|
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
29 Apr 2005 07:18:28 AM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:55:22 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:02:11 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:58:28 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
Actually I have always insisted that in the original perfection,
Adam/Eve had the ability to know good and evil.
That, however, is not supported by the bible. Specifically, Gen
3:22 contradicts you.
No, your interpretation of Gen 3:22 contradicts with my understanding.
No, the words in Gen 3:22 contradict your desires.
The difference is,
that ability was not in the form of mental knowledge. It was natural
instinct.
So they knew, but didn't know. That's great, Eric. Way to
contradict yourself.
They knew it was wrong,
They couldn't have; they had no moral code.
but didn't know the consequence for being
wrong. There is no contradiction.
There is when you claim they had a moral code, but didn't have
one.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
|
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
30 Apr 2005 02:55:33 PM |
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|
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:18:28 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:55:22 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:02:11 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:58:28 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:35:07 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:13:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:51:39 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
snip
I believe in God who is always good and nothing but good.
That would be the one who created a perfect, sinless world.
Everything in it was perfect and sinless, because it came from a god
who is perfect. Then, one of god's perfect and sinless creatures
committed evil. The only problem is that perfect and sinless
creatures have no evil in them. Just as god would never choose evil,
because god is all good; his creatures would never choose evil,
because they were created good.
That was before we learned the knowledge of good and evil.
Evil could not have existed. The world was perfect.
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
Actually I have always insisted that in the original perfection,
Adam/Eve had the ability to know good and evil.
That, however, is not supported by the bible. Specifically, Gen
3:22 contradicts you.
No, your interpretation of Gen 3:22 contradicts with my understanding.
No, the words in Gen 3:22 contradict your desires.
The difference is,
that ability was not in the form of mental knowledge. It was natural
instinct.
So they knew, but didn't know. That's great, Eric. Way to
contradict yourself.
They knew it was wrong,
They couldn't have; they had no moral code.
but didn't know the consequence for being
wrong. There is no contradiction.
There is when you claim they had a moral code, but didn't have
one.
If you read the story in its entirety, you should know that they knew
it was wrong but were deceived by the serpent to try it out anyway. If
they had no moral code before they ate the fruit, they wouldn't know
it was wrong to eat the fruit, and the serpent wouldn't need to
deceive them.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
|
|
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
30 Apr 2005 05:19:04 PM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:33 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:18:28 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:55:22 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:02:11 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:58:28 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:19:18 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
Perfection INCLUDES the ability to know good from evil. Unless,
of course, you're redefining "perfection" to suit your needs.
In which case you're simply dishonest.
Actually I have always insisted that in the original perfection,
Adam/Eve had the ability to know good and evil.
That, however, is not supported by the bible. Specifically, Gen
3:22 contradicts you.
No, your interpretation of Gen 3:22 contradicts with my understanding.
No, the words in Gen 3:22 contradict your desires.
The difference is,
that ability was not in the form of mental knowledge. It was natural
instinct.
So they knew, but didn't know. That's great, Eric. Way to
contradict yourself.
They knew it was wrong,
They couldn't have; they had no moral code.
but didn't know the consequence for being
wrong. There is no contradiction.
There is when you claim they had a moral code, but didn't have
one.
If you read the story in its entirety,
I have. You are trying to insert words to the text. That's
dishonest.
you should know that they knew
it was wrong
No, they did not. Gen 3:22 clearly points that out.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
27 Apr 2005 02:34:46 AM |
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
snip
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
There was no evil to learn about. The world was perfect.
snip
In my opinion, nobody would freely choose to do evil, as evil is
against God. The reason people sin and do evil is not because they
freely choose to sin and do evil. It's because they feel they have no
other choice under the threat of sin. Therefore, the so called "free
will to sin and do evil" is not really free at all. That's why I
believe free will is just an illusion.
I am sorry to point this out Eric, but the above makes no sense
what-so-ever. One cannot agree or disagree with it; it says nothing.
That's too bad. I thought I helped you to discredit the free will. :-)
It is too bad that you cannot think coherently, because the real world
is still there no matter what.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
27 Apr 2005 09:58:27 PM |
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On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:34:46 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:54 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:22:25 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:36:18 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
snip
After we
have learned the knowledge of good and evil, we became capable to sin
and do evil.
Only we wouldn't choose evil, because we were perfect; and there was
no evil to choose, because the world was perfect.
After we have learned the knowledge of good and evil, the world was
not perfect anymore.
There was no evil to learn about. The world was perfect.
Evil was not learned. Evil is perception of the mind. A perfect world
will become imperfect, once there is evil in the mind.
snip
In my opinion, nobody would freely choose to do evil, as evil is
against God. The reason people sin and do evil is not because they
freely choose to sin and do evil. It's because they feel they have no
other choice under the threat of sin. Therefore, the so called "free
will to sin and do evil" is not really free at all. That's why I
believe free will is just an illusion.
I am sorry to point this out Eric, but the above makes no sense
what-so-ever. One cannot agree or disagree with it; it says nothing.
That's too bad. I thought I helped you to discredit the free will. :-)
It is too bad that you cannot think coherently, because the real world
is still there no matter what.
It's too bad you still take illusion as reality.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
28 Apr 2005 12:32:52 PM |
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On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:58:27 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
That he is hopelessly insane.
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
23 Apr 2005 09:11:53 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:13:13 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:38:45 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:39:24 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:04:27 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <pk6a61lplgcr34fa1bmctg9kjqnfduh8od@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
First, God is not a concept.
This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure.
It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.
"Spiritual" is code for "made up *****".
To you?
To any rational person.
And if I'm "spiritually blind", then I'm going to call you
"reality blind".
So, Eric, how does it feel to be "reality blind"?
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
23 Apr 2005 12:43:48 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:11:53 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:13:13 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:38:45 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:39:24 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:04:27 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <pk6a61lplgcr34fa1bmctg9kjqnfduh8od@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
First, God is not a concept.
This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure.
It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.
"Spiritual" is code for "made up *****".
To you?
To any rational person.
And if I'm "spiritually blind", then I'm going to call you
"reality blind".
So, Eric, how does it feel to be "reality blind"?
Fortunately, only the spiritual reality is the ultimate reality. Your
physical reality is conditional and temporary, therefore, not a true
reality.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
23 Apr 2005 04:42:19 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:43:48 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:11:53 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:13:13 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:38:45 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:39:24 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:04:27 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <pk6a61lplgcr34fa1bmctg9kjqnfduh8od@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
First, God is not a concept.
This god-concept you have created is purely an imaginary figure.
It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.
"Spiritual" is code for "made up *****".
To you?
To any rational person.
And if I'm "spiritually blind", then I'm going to call you
"reality blind".
So, Eric, how does it feel to be "reality blind"?
Fortunately, only the spiritual reality is the ultimate reality.
No, non-spiritual reality is the ultimate reality.
So, how does it feel to be "reality blind"?
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
23 Apr 2005 04:44:56 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:43:48 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
Fortunately, only the spiritual reality is the ultimate reality. Your
physical reality is conditional and temporary, therefore, not a true
reality.
How long have you been a Christian Scientist?
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
23 Apr 2005 06:32:21 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:44:56 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:43:48 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
Fortunately, only the spiritual reality is the ultimate reality. Your
physical reality is conditional and temporary, therefore, not a true
reality.
How long have you been a Christian Scientist?
I'm not a Christian Scientist. I know nothing about Christian science,
and I don't even like that name.
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
23 Apr 2005 10:01:50 PM |
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:32:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:44:56 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:43:48 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
Fortunately, only the spiritual reality is the ultimate reality. Your
physical reality is conditional and temporary, therefore, not a true
reality.
How long have you been a Christian Scientist?
I'm not a Christian Scientist. I know nothing about Christian science,
and I don't even like that name.
But you just made a typical statement spoken by a Christian Scientist.
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
24 Apr 2005 06:35:19 AM |
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On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:01:50 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:32:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:44:56 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:43:48 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
Fortunately, only the spiritual reality is the ultimate reality. Your
physical reality is conditional and temporary, therefore, not a true
reality.
How long have you been a Christian Scientist?
I'm not a Christian Scientist. I know nothing about Christian science,
and I don't even like that name.
But you just made a typical statement spoken by a Christian Scientist.
That is unfortunate.
.
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
24 Apr 2005 10:40:11 PM |
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In article <n9di61hgl5h1g0la3e3b5jc4m3rkbjsl79@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.
How exactly does that work? You've got a concept of some god-creature in
your imagination. You project this into your everyday life. That does
not mean it actually exists, it just means you layer your perceptions
with this imaginary concept, and filter your interactions with reality
through this concept. That does not support the actual existence,
outside of your imagination, of this concept.
Of course, since it points to the spiritual world which can not be
perceived as any kind of concept.
If this spiritual world can't be perceived then it is irrelevant to
humans, since they can not interact with it in any way.
That maybe what appears to you, but it's a lot more than that.
How so? Can you elaborate?
Jesus is divine not because he can't feel pain, but because he can
resist suffering.
Going by that particular rule, nearly every martial artist is divine.
Not to mention all the buddhist monks, Indian swamis etc., etc.
That was before Jesus. Because of Jesus, a divine human being becomes
possible.
Nope. You can be one or the other, not both.
I don't consider my practice any different from others. I just feel
I'm only one of the lucky ones.
Huh? Lucky ones? Explain, please.
They don't have to mention the person with the name Jesus, but their
teaching and practice should be centered to the heart, because that's
where Christ lives.
Hmmm, how do you feel about non-jesus-myth religions?
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One
ANZAC Day
Lest We Forget
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
25 Apr 2005 09:36:19 PM |
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On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:40:11 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <n9di61hgl5h1g0la3e3b5jc4m3rkbjsl79@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
It's not a figure. The concept of God is just a pointer to point to
the spiritual God.
How exactly does that work? You've got a concept of some god-creature in
your imagination. You project this into your everyday life. That does
not mean it actually exists, it just means you layer your perceptions
with this imaginary concept, and filter your interactions with reality
through this concept. That does not support the actual existence,
outside of your imagination, of this concept.
Just think the concept as a pointer, and the pointer is always
pointing to the God in our heart. Whenever we are reminded of the
concept, we are reminded of the God in our heart who is not any
concept.
Of course, since it points to the spiritual world which can not be
perceived as any kind of concept.
If this spiritual world can't be perceived then it is irrelevant to
humans, since they can not interact with it in any way.
Not if the spiritual world is the source of everything in our life. We
can not perceive it, but our life depends on it.
That maybe what appears to you, but it's a lot more than that.
How so? Can you elaborate?
The concept of God is our pointer to the ultimate spiritual truth and
reality. That's why it's a lot more than what you think.
Jesus is divine not because he can't feel pain, but because he can
resist suffering.
Going by that particular rule, nearly every martial artist is divine.
Not to mention all the buddhist monks, Indian swamis etc., etc.
I seriously doubt that. Anybody can temporarily resist sin and
suffering. It's an entirely different matter to resist sin and
suffering till one's death.
That was before Jesus. Because of Jesus, a divine human being becomes
possible.
Nope. You can be one or the other, not both.
Since Jesus has already done that, I see there will be many more who
will follow the steps of Jesus.
I don't consider my practice any different from others. I just feel
I'm only one of the lucky ones.
Huh? Lucky ones? Explain, please.
What do you want to know?
They don't have to mention the person with the name Jesus, but their
teaching and practice should be centered to the heart, because that's
where Christ lives.
Hmmm, how do you feel about non-jesus-myth religions?
I'm afraid you have to be specific.
Cheers,
TGHO
.
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
26 Apr 2005 04:38:24 AM |
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In article <c2ar61lohge74bhrslj5f2e7f0bm1llk90@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
Just think the concept as a pointer, and the pointer is always
pointing to the God in our heart. Whenever we are reminded of the
concept, we are reminded of the God in our heart who is not any
concept.
A pointer? So, in other words, this god-concept is entirely subjective,
completely personal and wholly encapsulated within a person's
imagination. You may as well admit you made it up. :)
Not if the spiritual world is the source of everything in our life. We
can not perceive it, but our life depends on it.
Nope. Sorry mate. The only thing our lives depend upon is finding enough
food and water to live. That's all. Spiritualism is a personal thing,
and can mean many different beliefs and
The concept of God is our pointer to the ultimate spiritual truth and
reality.
The concept of a god-creature is simply a figment of a believer's
imagination. That's all mate. :)
That's why it's a lot more than what you think.
More? Sorry buddy.
I seriously doubt that. Anybody can temporarily resist sin and
suffering. It's an entirely different matter to resist sin and
suffering till one's death.
Firstly, define "sin". It has no meaning to me. Secondly, resisting
suffering is very easy. I do it all the time. For example - "shall I
suffer, and not have ice cream? Or will I have ice cream, and not
suffer?" See, very simple.
Since Jesus has already done that, I see there will be many more who
will follow the steps of Jesus.
So, you're expecting a whole bunch of jesus-myths to turn up any day
now, or something like that?
What do you want to know?
"One of the lucky ones" you said. Please elaborate.
I'm afraid you have to be specific.
Buddhism? Taoism? Hinduism?
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
26 Apr 2005 10:30:56 PM |
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:38:24 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <c2ar61lohge74bhrslj5f2e7f0bm1llk90@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
Just think the concept as a pointer, and the pointer is always
pointing to the God in our heart. Whenever we are reminded of the
concept, we are reminded of the God in our heart who is not any
concept.
A pointer? So, in other words, this god-concept is entirely subjective,
completely personal and wholly encapsulated within a person's
imagination. You may as well admit you made it up. :)
God is indeed a personal God, and the experience of God is indeed
subjective. However, since God himself is objective, God can not be
something I made up.
Not if the spiritual world is the source of everything in our life. We
can not perceive it, but our life depends on it.
Nope. Sorry mate. The only thing our lives depend upon is finding enough
food and water to live. That's all. Spiritualism is a personal thing,
and can mean many different beliefs and
Fortunately, life is not just about food and water. Life is spiritual
in nature. Spiritual life needs nourishment from the spiritual heart
all the time.
The concept of God is our pointer to the ultimate spiritual truth and
reality.
The concept of a god-creature is simply a figment of a believer's
imagination. That's all mate. :)
The concept itself maybe just an empty concept, but the concept points
to the reality and truth.
That's why it's a lot more than what you think.
More? Sorry buddy.
That's too bad.
I seriously doubt that. Anybody can temporarily resist sin and
suffering. It's an entirely different matter to resist sin and
suffering till one's death.
Firstly, define "sin". It has no meaning to me.
Sin is without God.
Secondly, resisting
suffering is very easy. I do it all the time. For example - "shall I
suffer, and not have ice cream? Or will I have ice cream, and not
suffer?" See, very simple.
I'm not sure about that.
Since Jesus has already done that, I see there will be many more who
will follow the steps of Jesus.
So, you're expecting a whole bunch of jesus-myths to turn up any day
now, or something like that?
Of course. :-)
What do you want to know?
"One of the lucky ones" you said. Please elaborate.
But there is nothing to elaborate. What do you want to know?
I'm afraid you have to be specific.
Buddhism? Taoism? Hinduism?
I believe those are good religions.
Cheers,
TGHO
.
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
29 Apr 2005 07:17:09 PM |
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In article <qm1u61lpqrthofs1ree4v4b8g1li6h4ikj@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
God is indeed a personal God, and the experience of God is indeed
subjective. However, since God himself is objective, God can not be
something I made up.
Of course this god-concept is something you made up. Oh, you may have
been indoctrinated in it's concept from a young age, but it is still
something that exists purely in your imagination. Nothing to do with
reality.
Or can you offer actual evidence this god-concept exists outside your
imagination?
Fortunately, life is not just about food and water. Life is spiritual
in nature. Spiritual life needs nourishment from the spiritual heart
all the time.
For this to be true, you'd have to come up with some way to show
spirituality is actually something the human body needs to survive. You
can't - it doesn't. Spirituality is just something we humans have
invented to help explain certain emotions, that's all.
The concept itself maybe just an empty concept, but the concept points
to the reality and truth.
How so? Where does this god-concept of yours reside in reality? How can
you prove that it exists?
Sin is without God.
How does that work? Since this god-concept is purely a product of your
imagination, technically everyone but you is living in your concept of
"sin".
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
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| User: "Stormin Mormon" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
20 Apr 2005 08:56:48 PM |
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Sadness when His children disobey. A form of pain.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Why? Because God is incapable to feel pain? I disagree.
How can a christian-style god-concept feel pain? Pain is a warning of
danger, of possible death or trauma and injury. How can a christian-
style god-concept be killed or injured?
.
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
21 Apr 2005 04:05:57 PM |
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In article <ALD9e.3553$mG3.2433@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, cayoung61-
#spamblock*-@hotmail.com says...
Gidday Stormin',
(Any relation to Norman?) ;)
Sadness when His children disobey. A form of pain.
How does a myth have children?
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
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| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
17 Apr 2005 07:43:53 PM |
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:a3j56114437s4d4tcg9jsbldt9ef37u54s@4ax.com...
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:46:34 +0200, André Keshav
<andre_dumarc@hotmayle.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
| According to your experience, pain is suffering. According to my
| experience, pain is not always suffering. Pain is suffering only when
| sin is involved. Pain is not suffering when it's for a noble cause, or
| when sin is defeated.
Can you give a concrete example where pain is not suffering because sin is
defeated?
I think the most obvious one would be Jesus Christ on a stick, the
crucifixion. It was a horrible scene and unbearable pain, but because
he was thinking about God instead of himself, he did not suffer. That
is why he was able to defeat death in the end.
When Jesus cried out, my father in heaven, why has thou forsaken me, do you
suppose Jesus was suffering at that point?
Tom
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
17 Apr 2005 08:38:49 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:43:53 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:a3j56114437s4d4tcg9jsbldt9ef37u54s@4ax.com...
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:46:34 +0200, André Keshav
<andre_dumarc@hotmayle.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
| According to your experience, pain is suffering. According to my
| experience, pain is not always suffering. Pain is suffering only when
| sin is involved. Pain is not suffering when it's for a noble cause, or
| when sin is defeated.
Can you give a concrete example where pain is not suffering because sin is
defeated?
I think the most obvious one would be Jesus Christ on a stick, the
crucifixion. It was a horrible scene and unbearable pain, but because
he was thinking about God instead of himself, he did not suffer. That
is why he was able to defeat death in the end.
When Jesus cried out, my father in heaven, why has thou forsaken me, do you
suppose Jesus was suffering at that point?
No. At that point, he already had so much pain that he couldn't care
about suffering anymore. All his attention was focused on his faith in
God. That's why he had that question when he realized he was about to
die. He couldn't believe it.
Tom
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
18 Apr 2005 05:46:06 AM |
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In article <oj2661dnsjssjtcpc9p7rp6j7937aetlsf@4ax.com>,
brze@no.spam.mail.com says...
Gidday Eric,
No. At that point, he already had so much pain that he couldn't care
about suffering anymore.
Can I point out that if this Jesus-myth-fellow was feeling any pain then
he wasn't divine in any way?
Seems rather obvious to me, really.
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
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| User: "Alan Cossey" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
18 Apr 2005 07:09:06 AM |
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"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cce3af86996fe189896b1@freenews.iinet.net.au...
| In article <oj2661dnsjssjtcpc9p7rp6j7937aetlsf@4ax.com>,
| says...
|
| Gidday Eric,
|
| > No. At that point, he already had so much pain that he couldn't care
| > about suffering anymore.
|
| Can I point out that if this Jesus-myth-fellow was feeling any pain then
| he wasn't divine in any way?
|
| Seems rather obvious to me, really.
|
| Cheers,
| TGHO
|
| --
| The Great Hairy One,
| ICQ: 118086514
|
Only if God can't feel anything. Ever asked him?
Alan Cossey
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