| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Truth Hunter" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2005 06:48:01 AM |
| Object: |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God =3D Atonement
God created A&E beings knowing from the start that they would not
please him. And when they would not please him, he knew he would have
to arrange to have the humans torture and kill him/God in the form of
Jesus so that he could forgive them for being the way he created them
to be and the way he knew they would be from the beginning. And he
knew, at the beginning, that if people did not accept that he would do
something so utterly ridiculous, he would have to cast them into hell
where they would weep and gnash their teeth in a lake of fire forever.
All this to please his own fragile ego, apparently.
This is the most ridiculous concept I have ever been asked to accept,
and I don't accept it. I cannot accept that an all knowing, all
perfect, all good God would be such a sadistic idiot. Apparently
Christians can.
God sacrificed himself to himself to satisfy his anger and human beings
for being exactly the way he created them to be and for being exactly
the way he knew they would be from the beginnning of time. And yet God
now threatens to torture people for eternity if they don't believe that
he is stupid enough to do something like this.
It constantly amazes me that Christians can pretend that this makes
some kind of sense.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 02:29:57 AM |
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On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 10:17:53 AM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 11:16:51 AM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:tbgc71pcr77c8qfdmubth9k3v739bfkajh@4ax.com:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
Well then, there you have it. I *was* shown the truth of God (that it's
a fantasy), therefore I must have been searching in all sincerity.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
03 May 2005 08:28:17 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 16:16:51 GMT, Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:tbgc71pcr77c8qfdmubth9k3v739bfkajh@4ax.com:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
Well then, there you have it. I *was* shown the truth of God (that it's
a fantasy), therefore I must have been searching in all sincerity.
Yea, right. Obviously, you are sincere enough to find the truth as a
fantasy.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
03 May 2005 09:47:48 PM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:h59g71teo0d37hct78h6373hsqq2kt54n2@4ax.com:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 16:16:51 GMT, Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:tbgc71pcr77c8qfdmubth9k3v739bfkajh@4ax.com:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to
his/her sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with
zero sincerity in searching of God.
Well then, there you have it. I *was* shown the truth of God (that
it's a fantasy), therefore I must have been searching in all
sincerity.
Yea, right. Obviously, you are sincere enough to find the truth as a
fantasy.
Trust me, it wasn't the answer that I was looking for at the time.
Obviously you are deluded enough to see your fantasies as the truth.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 04:34:07 PM |
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Eric Brze wrote:
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
Oh, really? Well, I "searched for God," and did it for 20 years. Most
sincerely, thank you very much. Was not shown any such "truth of God."
Seems, therefore, that you're wrong, doesn't it?
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
03 May 2005 08:32:50 PM |
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On 2 May 2005 14:34:07 -0700, "skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
Oh, really? Well, I "searched for God," and did it for 20 years. Most
sincerely, thank you very much. Was not shown any such "truth of God."
Seems, therefore, that you're wrong, doesn't it?
Not really. If you are sincere to God, God will be sincere to you.
Just because you haven't realized the truth of God, doesn't mean you
have wasted your time and effort. It means there are greater rewards
ahead.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
04 May 2005 11:16:30 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Tue, 03 May 2005 21:32:50 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:
On 2 May 2005 14:34:07 -0700, "skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
Oh, really? Well, I "searched for God," and did it for 20 years. Most
sincerely, thank you very much. Was not shown any such "truth of God."
Seems, therefore, that you're wrong, doesn't it?
Not really.
Yep. Because the only way for you to be correct is for you to
be omniscient.
Don
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 06:55:50 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Mon, 02 May 2005 11:17:53 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
But that's wrong. I sought sincerely. I found no evidence.
And the only thing you have left is to patronize me. How sad for
you.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
03 May 2005 09:15:50 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 18:55:50 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Mon, 02 May 2005 11:17:53 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God. Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity. The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
But that's wrong. I sought sincerely. I found no evidence.
That's impossible. God is just. Whatever you give to God, God will
give back to you with more.
And the only thing you have left is to patronize me. How sad for
you.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 01:31:17 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 11:17:53 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God.
So, in other words, you are guessing?
Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity.
"according to his/her sincerity?" And WHERE did you hear that
outrageous statement?
The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
And that is your personal opinion, correct?
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 03:31:01 PM |
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Don <- - - - - --- somebody@worldwide.net> wrote in
news:ldsc71htndmrq89d27tf4npmuf3qmja43o@4ax.com:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 11:17:53 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God.
So, in other words, you are guessing?
Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity.
"according to his/her sincerity?" And WHERE did you hear that
outrageous statement?
That's the standard escape clause. That way, when you don't find
anything you just weren't *sincere* enough.
The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
And that is your personal opinion, correct?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
03 May 2005 08:26:14 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 18:31:17 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 11:17:53 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:29:57 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 14:16:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
You don't have such evidence because you never search for God.
Why would you say that? How do you know he has never searched for
God?
It's only a logical conclusion that the reason he doesn't have any
evidence of God is because he never search for God.
So, in other words, you are guessing?
Anyone who is
interested in God will be shown the truth of God according to his/her
sincerity.
"according to his/her sincerity?" And WHERE did you hear that
outrageous statement?
What's wrong with that statement?
The one with zero evidence must be the one with zero
sincerity in searching of God.
And that is your personal opinion, correct?
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
30 Apr 2005 09:19:29 PM |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Ok, so your evidence is subjective experience, not objective truth or
objective evidence. Nothing wrong with that. It is good for you.
But your statement "but Jesus Christ is alive" is subjective and
something for which you have no objective proof.
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
01 May 2005 12:59:05 PM |
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On Sun, 01 May 2005 02:19:29 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Ok, so your evidence is subjective experience, not objective truth or
objective evidence.
It's objective and true to me because it's part of my life experience.
It's subjective to you because you can not live my life.
Nothing wrong with that. It is good for you.
But your statement "but Jesus Christ is alive" is subjective and
something for which you have no objective proof.
I don't intend to offer you your objective proof. I only need to
testify my own objective proof for you to find your own.
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 02:35:48 AM |
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On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:59:05 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 02:19:29 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Ok, so your evidence is subjective experience, not objective truth or
objective evidence.
It's objective and true to me because it's part of my life experience.
So it is subjective. It is only your opinion...that you call "my life
experience."
I don't intend to offer you your objective proof.
Then you can't expect anyone else to believe you. You can't expect
anyone to believe that you have the real Christ instead of a fantasy
Christ. As far as facts are concerned, you have no facts, just the
way you feel about it.
I only need to
testify my own objective proof for you to find your own.
What is the objective proof I find is different from your objective
proof? I could claim that my truth is "objective and true to me
because it is part of my live experience" and that your truth is a
false truth and your Christ is a false Christ. I could claim that you
are being deceived.
What would you have to counter those claims??? What do you have to
prove me wrong when my "life experience" tells me that I am right and
you are believing a false Christ?
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 01:55:28 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:35:48 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:59:05 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 02:19:29 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Ok, so your evidence is subjective experience, not objective truth or
objective evidence.
It's objective and true to me because it's part of my life experience.
So it is subjective. It is only your opinion...that you call "my life
experience."
The experience of my life is not just my opinion. It is personal, but
it's not subjective. It's actual life.
I don't intend to offer you your objective proof.
Then you can't expect anyone else to believe you.
I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm asking you to believe in God.
You can't expect
anyone to believe that you have the real Christ instead of a fantasy
Christ.
I think it doesn't help you in anyway whether I have the real Christ
to guide me or not. You need to have the guidance of Christ for
yourself.
As far as facts are concerned, you have no facts, just the
way you feel about it.
I can only offer my personal testimony. The facts can only be found
out by you in your own life.
I only need to
testify my own objective proof for you to find your own.
What is the objective proof I find is different from your objective
proof?
There should be no difference, but you will never know if you don't
find it.
I could claim that my truth is "objective and true to me
because it is part of my live experience" and that your truth is a
false truth and your Christ is a false Christ. I could claim that you
are being deceived.
You can claim all you want, but the one who benefits, is the one who
actually has it.
What would you have to counter those claims??? What do you have to
prove me wrong when my "life experience" tells me that I am right and
you are believing a false Christ?
It's never my intention to prove everybody wrong and only myself
right. In fact, I would be glad if you do find my fault so that I can
improve myself. So, you are entitled to your opinion.
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 03:17:00 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 14:55:28 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:35:48 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:59:05 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 02:19:29 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Ok, so your evidence is subjective experience, not objective truth or
objective evidence.
It's objective and true to me because it's part of my life experience.
So it is subjective. It is only your opinion...that you call "my life
experience."
The experience of my life is not just my opinion. It is personal, but
it's not subjective. It's actual life.
But it is only your experience, therefore it is NOT objective, but
subjective, based upon YOUR personal experience, and NOT based upon
provable, repeatable actions or facts. It is your SUBJECTIVE
experience and nothing more.
I don't intend to offer you your objective proof.
Then you can't expect anyone else to believe you.
I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm asking you to believe in God.
You are asking everyone to "DO" what you did, and IF they "DO" what
you did, then they will have the same subjective experience as you
have had.
You have made it clear that IF a person does NOT have the same
experience that you have had, then that person is either not seeking
God or not sincerely seeking God.
That is what you have said in this forum.
You can't expect
anyone to believe that you have the real Christ instead of a fantasy
Christ.
I think it doesn't help you in anyway whether I have the real Christ
to guide me or not. You need to have the guidance of Christ for
yourself.
Who are you to judge whether or not "my" experience with Christ is
genuine or not?
As far as facts are concerned, you have no facts, just the
way you feel about it.
I can only offer my personal testimony.
Yes, you can only offer your SUBJECTIVE testimony.
The facts can only be found
out by you in your own life.
But you claim that any person who does not come to the same
conclusions as you have is either not seeking God or is not seeking
God sincerely.
As I have said before, some of the most bitter, prejudiced,
closed-minded, rude, arrogant, unloving, condescending people I have
ever known are people who proudly claim to be followers of Christ,
regular church-goers, born-again Christians.
Most of the biggest liars and crooks with whom I have ever worked also
claim to be conservative Christians. Even you claim something that
you cannot prove or demonstrate.
I only need to
testify my own objective proof for you to find your own.
What is the objective proof I find is different from your objective
proof?
There should be no difference, but you will never know if you don't
find it.
How do you know I have not found it?
I could claim that my truth is "objective and true to me
because it is part of my live experience" and that your truth is a
false truth and your Christ is a false Christ. I could claim that you
are being deceived.
You can claim all you want, but the one who benefits, is the one who
actually has it.
Who are you to decide who "actually has it" and who does not?
What would you have to counter those claims??? What do you have to
prove me wrong when my "life experience" tells me that I am right and
you are believing a false Christ?
It's never my intention to prove everybody wrong and only myself
right.
But you have already claimed that others are wrong when they did not
agree with you.
--
God Bless!
Fac ut vivas
.
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| User: "Azrael" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
01 May 2005 02:13:46 AM |
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On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Then you have learned nothing:
You have no observable evidence,
You have no physical evidence
all you have is what's in your imagination and that is not real
Azrael
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2 if I ever meet Stephen Hawkings "What is the most mass a black hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to absorb more matter?
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
01 May 2005 12:49:16 PM |
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On Sun, 01 May 2005 07:13:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Then you have learned nothing:
You have no observable evidence,
You have no physical evidence
all you have is what's in your imagination and that is not real
Just because it's my personal experience, doesn't mean it's my
imagination. I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real. However, that may not mean anything to you,
because you do not live my life. Too bad. :-)
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
Azrael
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2 if I ever meet Stephen Hawkings "What is the most mass a black hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to absorb more matter?
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 02:40:34 AM |
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On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real.
Eric, you do not understand what "objective" means. You are not
describing "objective" proof, you are describing subjective
experience. That is NOT objective proof.
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
Can you offer OBJECTIVE proof that "God is a personal God?"
Your life experience is NOT objective proof, it is SUBJECTIVE
experience.
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 02:14:31 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:40:34 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real.
Eric, you do not understand what "objective" means. You are not
describing "objective" proof, you are describing subjective
experience. That is NOT objective proof.
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
Can you offer OBJECTIVE proof that "God is a personal God?"
Your life experience is NOT objective proof, it is SUBJECTIVE
experience.
It's my subjective experience of the objective Truth. Just because
it's personal and subjective, doesn't mean it didn't happen or it's
not true.
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 03:24:39 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 15:14:31 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 07:40:34 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real.
Eric, you do not understand what "objective" means. You are not
describing "objective" proof, you are describing subjective
experience. That is NOT objective proof.
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
Can you offer OBJECTIVE proof that "God is a personal God?"
Your life experience is NOT objective proof, it is SUBJECTIVE
experience.
It's my subjective experience of the objective Truth. Just because
it's personal and subjective, doesn't mean it didn't happen or it's
not true.
Nor does your subjective experience mean that it IS true.
You could be wrong. I can see that you can't convince anyone else
with all the cliches you use.
--
God Bless!
Fac ut vivas
.
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| User: "Azrael" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 01:35:46 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 07:13:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Then you have learned nothing:
You have no observable evidence,
You have no physical evidence
all you have is what's in your imagination and that is not real
Just because it's my personal experience, doesn't mean it's my
imagination. I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real. However, that may not mean anything to you,
because you do not live my life. Too bad. :-)
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
I have no proof of a god
I have no evidence of a god
No has shown proof of a god
No one has shown evidence of a god
I realize that god is not personel or otherwise, god does not exist.
Azrael
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2 if I ever meet Stephen Hawkings "What is the most mass a black hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to absorb more matter?
.
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| User: "JokingYou" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 10:09:01 AM |
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"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:7eib71turln1vst2jj6im66djp5uvvmo20@4ax.com...
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 07:13:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Then you have learned nothing:
You have no observable evidence,
You have no physical evidence
all you have is what's in your imagination and that is not real
Just because it's my personal experience, doesn't mean it's my
imagination. I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real. However, that may not mean anything to you,
because you do not live my life. Too bad. :-)
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
I have no proof of a god
I have no evidence of a god
No has shown proof of a god
No one has shown evidence of a god
I realize that god is not personel or otherwise, god does not exist.
Azrael
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a
time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the
universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2 if I ever meet Stephen Hawkings "What is the most mass a black
hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to
absorb more matter?
I doubt even Steven Hawkins could answer your questions so how in the heck
do you expect someone else to speculate.
How about some questions to you?
Question #1: Why are you in existence?
Question #2: What is the purpose of your life?
Question #3: If there is no hereafter then why should not everyone simply
fend for themselves. Why should someone be a Mother Theresa rather than a
Hitler, Stalin or Al Capone.
.
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| User: "JokingYou" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 09:57:49 AM |
|
|
"Azrael" <god@my.computer.palace.com> wrote in message
news:7eib71turln1vst2jj6im66djp5uvvmo20@4ax.com...
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 07:13:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Then you have learned nothing:
You have no observable evidence,
You have no physical evidence
all you have is what's in your imagination and that is not real
Just because it's my personal experience, doesn't mean it's my
imagination. I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real. However, that may not mean anything to you,
because you do not live my life. Too bad. :-)
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
I have no proof of a god
I have no evidence of a god
No has shown proof of a god
No one has shown evidence of a god
Perhaps that is exactly the point. Perhaps when "you" die, "you" will get
exactly what you believe while believers will also get exactly what they
believe. How ironic that both parties would be right but the reward of
their belief so different.
I realize that god is not personel or otherwise, god does not exist.
Azrael
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a
time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the
universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2 if I ever meet Stephen Hawkings "What is the most mass a black
hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to
absorb more matter?
.
|
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 02:05:21 PM |
|
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 06:35:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 07:13:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Then you have learned nothing:
You have no observable evidence,
You have no physical evidence
all you have is what's in your imagination and that is not real
Just because it's my personal experience, doesn't mean it's my
imagination. I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real. However, that may not mean anything to you,
because you do not live my life. Too bad. :-)
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
I have no proof of a god
I have no evidence of a god
No has shown proof of a god
No one has shown evidence of a god
Only by living your life in the way of God, can you realize the truth
of God. Only by following the love of God, can you experience the love
of God. The evidence of God is to be found out by you in yourself.
I realize that god is not personel or otherwise, god does not exist.
That's only because you are looking for God in the wrong way at the
wrong place.
Azrael
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2 if I ever meet Stephen Hawkings "What is the most mass a black hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to absorb more matter?
.
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| User: "Don - - - - - ---" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
02 May 2005 03:23:02 PM |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 15:05:21 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2005 06:35:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 13:49:16 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 07:13:46 GMT, Azrael <god@my.computer.palace.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:55:34 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:21:11 GMT, Don <- - - - - ---
somebody@worldwide.net> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:30:57 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
The difference is people in your examples are all dead, but Jesus
Christ is alive.
What evidence can you show that demonstrates that Jesus Christ is
alive?
The evidence is my personal experience in learning and searching for
the spiritual truth. It's what I have learned and realized in my own
practice.
Then you have learned nothing:
You have no observable evidence,
You have no physical evidence
all you have is what's in your imagination and that is not real
Just because it's my personal experience, doesn't mean it's my
imagination. I have my life as the evidence to prove my experience is
objective and real. However, that may not mean anything to you,
because you do not live my life. Too bad. :-)
Can you realize that God is a personal God?
I have no proof of a god
I have no evidence of a god
No has shown proof of a god
No one has shown evidence of a god
Only by living your life in the way of God, can you realize the truth
of God.
How does one live one's life "in the way of God?"
Are you saying that God only reveals truth to those who "do the right
thing" or "live the right way" or "live in the way of God?"
Sounds like salvation by works, not by grace.
Only by following the love of God, can you experience the love
of God.
How can you "follow the love of God" if you don't know God?
The evidence of God is to be found out by you in yourself.
But you have told people that they have it wrong and you have it
right.
I realize that god is not personel or otherwise, god does not exist.
That's only because you are looking for God in the wrong way at the
wrong place.
How do you know that he is looking for God in the wrong way and at the
wrong place? How can you make such an arrogant claim? Who are you to
say?
Eric, this has been fun and an eye-opening experience. I realize that
you believe in a "closed system" of God, you think that you know the
truth, you tell others that they are wrong, but you are unable to tell
them how to be right except by spouting cliche after cliche after
cliche.
What you seem to be saying is that you know everyone else is wrong,
but you don't know how to tell them to be right...except by the
language of cliches and platitudes.
--
God Bless!
Fac ut vivas
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
17 Apr 2005 04:33:08 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:56:31 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:46:34 +0200, André Keshav
<andre_dumarc@hotmayle.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
| According to your experience, pain is suffering. According to my
| experience, pain is not always suffering. Pain is suffering only when
| sin is involved. Pain is not suffering when it's for a noble cause, or
| when sin is defeated.
Can you give a concrete example where pain is not suffering because sin is
defeated?
I think the most obvious one would be Jesus Christ on a stick, the
crucifixion. It was a horrible scene and unbearable pain, but because
he was thinking about God instead of himself, he did not suffer. That
is why he was able to defeat death in the end.
"Why god, have you forsaken me?"
Sounds like he was suffering to me.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
17 Apr 2005 06:58:28 PM |
|
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:33:08 -0500, Don Kresch
<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:
In alt.atheism on Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:56:31 -0400, Eric Brze
<brze@no.spam.mail.com> let us all know that:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:46:34 +0200, André Keshav
<andre_dumarc@hotmayle.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
| According to your experience, pain is suffering. According to my
| experience, pain is not always suffering. Pain is suffering only when
| sin is involved. Pain is not suffering when it's for a noble cause, or
| when sin is defeated.
Can you give a concrete example where pain is not suffering because sin is
defeated?
I think the most obvious one would be Jesus Christ on a stick, the
crucifixion. It was a horrible scene and unbearable pain, but because
he was thinking about God instead of himself, he did not suffer. That
is why he was able to defeat death in the end.
"Why god, have you forsaken me?"
Sounds like he was suffering to me.
That was only his last words before he died. If he really suffered on
the cross because of the pain, he would have cried like a baby and
repeated those words again and again while he was on the cross.
Crucifixion is a slow and brutal torture. The pain is unbearable.
Therefore, those words were not the proof of his suffering. Those
words only tells us that Jesus never expected to die on the cross. He
never believed that God was going to allow him to die. That's why he
had that question before he gave up his spirit.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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