| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Truth Hunter" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2005 06:48:01 AM |
| Object: |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God =3D Atonement
God created A&E beings knowing from the start that they would not
please him. And when they would not please him, he knew he would have
to arrange to have the humans torture and kill him/God in the form of
Jesus so that he could forgive them for being the way he created them
to be and the way he knew they would be from the beginning. And he
knew, at the beginning, that if people did not accept that he would do
something so utterly ridiculous, he would have to cast them into hell
where they would weep and gnash their teeth in a lake of fire forever.
All this to please his own fragile ego, apparently.
This is the most ridiculous concept I have ever been asked to accept,
and I don't accept it. I cannot accept that an all knowing, all
perfect, all good God would be such a sadistic idiot. Apparently
Christians can.
God sacrificed himself to himself to satisfy his anger and human beings
for being exactly the way he created them to be and for being exactly
the way he knew they would be from the beginnning of time. And yet God
now threatens to torture people for eternity if they don't believe that
he is stupid enough to do something like this.
It constantly amazes me that Christians can pretend that this makes
some kind of sense.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
12 Apr 2005 11:14:25 PM |
|
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Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700, let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 14:52:54 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0700,
wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 11:01:47 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 10 Apr 2005 16:50:09 -0700,
(snip)
Therw never were any solipsitic ways,
Yeah there were, keithykins.
No there weren't; you continuously misunderstood my argument. But
that's OK
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
keith
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
13 Apr 2005 07:17:19 AM |
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|
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 21:14:25 -0700, let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700, let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 14:52:54 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0700,
wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 11:01:47 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 10 Apr 2005 16:50:09 -0700,
(snip)
Therw never were any solipsitic ways,
Yeah there were, keithykins.
No there weren't;
Yes, there were. I understood your argument perfectly.
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
Thus, I shall always be an atheist.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
13 Apr 2005 08:55:20 AM |
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Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 21:14:25 -0700, let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 14:52:54 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0700,
wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 11:01:47 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 10 Apr 2005 16:50:09 -0700,
(snip)
Therw never were any solipsitic ways,
Yeah there were, keithykins.
No there weren't;
Yes, there were. I understood your argument perfectly.
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
Thus, I shall always be an atheist.
You are entiteled to your opinion Don.
keith
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
13 Apr 2005 05:40:58 PM |
|
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<> wrote in message
news:1113400520.305970.144780@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 21:14:25 -0700, let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 14:52:54 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0700,
wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 11:01:47 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 10 Apr 2005 16:50:09 -0700,
(snip)
Therw never were any solipsitic ways,
Yeah there were, keithykins.
No there weren't;
Yes, there were. I understood your argument perfectly.
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
Thus, I shall always be an atheist.
You are entiteled to your opinion Don.
Like you he has faith.
Tom
keith
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
14 Apr 2005 08:46:05 AM |
|
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Tom wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1113400520.305970.144780@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 21:14:25 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700,
let
(snip)
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
Thus, I shall always be an atheist.
You are entiteled to your opinion Don.
Like you he has faith.
yes he does:-)
keith
Tom
keith
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
14 Apr 2005 05:49:42 PM |
|
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<> wrote in message
news:1113486365.363390.251880@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Tom wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1113400520.305970.144780@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 21:14:25 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700,
let
(snip)
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
Thus, I shall always be an atheist.
You are entiteled to your opinion Don.
Like you he has faith.
yes he does:-)
And for a good reasons from what I can tell keith.
cheers,
Tom
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
14 Apr 2005 08:46:25 AM |
|
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Tom wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1113400520.305970.144780@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 21:14:25 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700,
let
(snip)
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
Thus, I shall always be an atheist.
You are entiteled to your opinion Don.
Like you he has faith.
yes he does:-)
keith
Tom
keith
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
13 Apr 2005 03:43:33 PM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on 13 Apr 2005 06:55:20 -0700,
wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 21:14:25 -0700, let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 16:24:18 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 12 Apr 2005 14:52:54 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0700,
wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 11 Apr 2005 11:01:47 -0700,
let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 10 Apr 2005 16:50:09 -0700,
(snip)
Therw never were any solipsitic ways,
Yeah there were, keithykins.
No there weren't;
Yes, there were. I understood your argument perfectly.
Don but you know what you're like
now, but people change Don.
Certain things don't.
Let's stop here now that we agree: some things stay as they are.
Thus, I shall always be an atheist.
You are entiteled to your opinion Don.
I'm entitled to my facts, keithykins.
Don
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 01:05:19 PM |
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On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
writes:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112147448.427989.63090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
writes:
{...}
I don't see why. It seems possible to me that having free
will
is
more important than the wrong actions we choose with our
freedom.
By "needs re-evaluation", I'm trying to say that the data seem
hardly
seem to indicate any actual choice -- if 50% of the people
with
free will chose not to sin, or if perhaps 20% made the choice
not to sin, or maybe 5 perecent ... but 100% of people who
allegedly had "free will" have sinned -- and that's 100% to
eleven decimal places, mind you. Which implies to me that
there was no actual choice in the first place, otherwise we
wouldn't be seeing zero-for-ten-billion.
I don't see how you can infer lack of freedom from a 100% sin
rating; I
don't see why our being free implies that some percentage of the
population ought be expected to never sin.
I merely observe that our nature, a nature created by God,
invariably
leads to the commission of sin.
because we are free to commit the sins we want to commit. I'm not
sure
what your point is.
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin. The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin (the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
According to doctrine sin is the result of our sinful nature. In
other words it is the result of god's creation.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 01:51:47 PM |
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thomas p wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
According to doctrine sin is the result of our sinful nature. In
other words it is the result of god's creation.
I don't agree with your characterization. Having sinful nature just
means that we will sometimes sin; your comment presupposes that an
omnipotent being could have arranged for us to never sin, but that
would contradict our actions being free. Having sinful nature is a
result of our will and if God forced our will to be different that
would contradict our being free.
Keith
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 05:22:37 PM |
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<> wrote in message
news:1112727107.520236.32920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
According to doctrine sin is the result of our sinful nature. In
other words it is the result of god's creation.
I don't agree with your characterization. Having sinful nature just
means that we will sometimes sin; your comment presupposes that an
omnipotent being could have arranged for us to never sin, but that
would contradict our actions being free.
What does it mean to you that your will is free? Is it free from sin? Are
you free to choose good instead of sin *all* the time. If not, you are not
free.
Having sinful nature is a
result of our will and if God forced our will to be different that
would contradict our being free.
Apparently, Jesus was not free since he did not sin. Yet he was human.
You are contradicting yourself.
Tom
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 07:51:26 PM |
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Tom wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112727107.520236.32920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
thomas p wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
(snip)
I don't agree with your characterization. Having sinful nature just
means that we will sometimes sin; your comment presupposes that an
omnipotent being could have arranged for us to never sin, but that
would contradict our actions being free.
What does it mean to you that your will is free? Is it free from sin?
Are
you free to choose good instead of sin *all* the time. If not, you
are not
free.
Here is what I'd say it means for your will wrt some action to be free:
1. You do what you want to do wrt that action.
2. Your wanting to do what you wanted to do wasn't programmed into
you, neither by nature nor nurture nor divine decree.
Having sinful nature is a
result of our will and if God forced our will to be different that
would contradict our being free.
Apparently, Jesus was not free since he did not sin. Yet he was
human.
The fact that jesus didn't sin doesn't imply that he wasn't free. His
not sinning is consistent with it being the case that his actions
reflected his will and his was not programmed into him, the requisites
for his actions to be free.
keith
You are contradicting yourself.
Tom
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 10:21:29 AM |
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On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
writes:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112147448.427989.63090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
writes:
{...}
I don't see why. It seems possible to me that having free
will
is
more important than the wrong actions we choose with our
freedom.
By "needs re-evaluation", I'm trying to say that the data seem
hardly
seem to indicate any actual choice -- if 50% of the people
with
free will chose not to sin, or if perhaps 20% made the choice
not to sin, or maybe 5 perecent ... but 100% of people who
allegedly had "free will" have sinned -- and that's 100% to
eleven decimal places, mind you. Which implies to me that
there was no actual choice in the first place, otherwise we
wouldn't be seeing zero-for-ten-billion.
I don't see how you can infer lack of freedom from a 100% sin
rating; I
don't see why our being free implies that some percentage of the
population ought be expected to never sin.
I merely observe that our nature, a nature created by God,
invariably
leads to the commission of sin.
because we are free to commit the sins we want to commit. I'm not
sure
what your point is.
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin. The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin (the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
keith
Keith
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 10:53:10 AM |
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:51b551h014b51v3gb1kq9i2c2hdm9qid9j@4ax.com...
snip
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
So, we can only NOT sin if your god decides that for us?
Then, why condemn US for HIS decision?
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "?om" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 04:53:29 PM |
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"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:3bfqiaF6htfr1U1@individual.net...
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:51b551h014b51v3gb1kq9i2c2hdm9qid9j@4ax.com...
snip
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
So, we can only NOT sin if your god decides that for us?
Then, why condemn US for HIS decision?
theres a mind bender for the illogical christian
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Buddy Love" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 06:31:56 PM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:51b551h014b51v3gb1kq9i2c2hdm9qid9j@4ax.com...
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
writes:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112147448.427989.63090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
writes:
{...}
I don't see why. It seems possible to me that having free
will
is
more important than the wrong actions we choose with our
freedom.
By "needs re-evaluation", I'm trying to say that the data seem
hardly
seem to indicate any actual choice -- if 50% of the people
with
free will chose not to sin, or if perhaps 20% made the choice
not to sin, or maybe 5 perecent ... but 100% of people who
allegedly had "free will" have sinned -- and that's 100% to
eleven decimal places, mind you. Which implies to me that
there was no actual choice in the first place, otherwise we
wouldn't be seeing zero-for-ten-billion.
I don't see how you can infer lack of freedom from a 100% sin
rating; I
don't see why our being free implies that some percentage of the
population ought be expected to never sin.
I merely observe that our nature, a nature created by God,
invariably
leads to the commission of sin.
because we are free to commit the sins we want to commit. I'm not
sure
what your point is.
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin. The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin (the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
Well now, apparently, your god may or may not have the will to save you from
hell. Thats a reasuring thought.
Buddy Love
keith
Keith
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 12:55:46 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:31:56 -0500, "Buddy Love" <BR@tbaytel.net>
wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:51b551h014b51v3gb1kq9i2c2hdm9qid9j@4ax.com...
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
writes:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112147448.427989.63090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
writes:
{...}
I don't see why. It seems possible to me that having free
will
is
more important than the wrong actions we choose with our
freedom.
By "needs re-evaluation", I'm trying to say that the data seem
hardly
seem to indicate any actual choice -- if 50% of the people
with
free will chose not to sin, or if perhaps 20% made the choice
not to sin, or maybe 5 perecent ... but 100% of people who
allegedly had "free will" have sinned -- and that's 100% to
eleven decimal places, mind you. Which implies to me that
there was no actual choice in the first place, otherwise we
wouldn't be seeing zero-for-ten-billion.
I don't see how you can infer lack of freedom from a 100% sin
rating; I
don't see why our being free implies that some percentage of the
population ought be expected to never sin.
I merely observe that our nature, a nature created by God,
invariably
leads to the commission of sin.
because we are free to commit the sins we want to commit. I'm not
sure
what your point is.
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin. The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin (the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
Well now, apparently, your god may or may not have the will to save you from
hell. Thats a reasuring thought.
That's the thought never concerns me, because I have faith.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 01:48:14 PM |
|
|
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
(snip0
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our differences
are mere semantics.
keith
keith
Keith
.
|
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| User: "Buddy Love" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 06:36:15 PM |
|
|
<> wrote in message
news:1112726894.583659.88460@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
(snip0
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our differences
are mere semantics.
Why would anyone willingly do wrong when they know what is right?
Buddy Love
keith
keith
Keith
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 02:19:05 PM |
|
|
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
(snip0
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our differences
are mere semantics.
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable not
to sin. That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Buddy Love" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 06:42:42 PM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:59o5519pj0vruvd8usb9l8aobqn714a0qc@4ax.com...
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
(snip0
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our differences
are mere semantics.
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable not
to sin. That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Either god is in charge of your ability to do good or not. Which is it?
Buddy Love
.
|
|
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 12:09:14 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:42:42 -0500, "Buddy Love" <BR@tbaytel.net>
wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:59o5519pj0vruvd8usb9l8aobqn714a0qc@4ax.com...
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
(snip0
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our differences
are mere semantics.
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable not
to sin. That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Either god is in charge of your ability to do good or not. Which is it?
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Buddy Love
.
|
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| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 05:16:33 PM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:42:42 -0500, "Buddy Love" <BR@tbaytel.net>
wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:59o5519pj0vruvd8usb9l8aobqn714a0qc@4ax.com...
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
(snip0
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our differences
are mere semantics.
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable not
to sin. That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Either god is in charge of your ability to do good or not. Which is it?
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good.
Except that he created you knowing in advance what your fate is. That is
totally consistent with an all powerfull and all knowing god you see.
God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst.
He also provides you with hell which if you actually believe, will cause you
to conform to gods will. Is that what you call free will?
If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Is Jesus the only way to do good? or is the rest of the world going to your
christian hell?
Tom
.
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:25:23 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:16:33 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:42:42 -0500, "Buddy Love" <BR@tbaytel.net>
wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:59o5519pj0vruvd8usb9l8aobqn714a0qc@4ax.com...
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112295365.989715.224380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article
<1112226677.139255.46120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
(snip0
Free to commit sin is not the same as freedom not to commit sin.
The
result
is the obvious fact that all humans sin regardless of intent.
I don't agree; I'd say that freedom to sin *is* the same as freedom
not
to sin. The problem is that philosophers mean something different by
the word "freedom" than the Bible does. Saying we are slaves sin
(the
way the Bible does) is to say that we *will* certainly choose to
sin.
But if our choice isn't free then it's not sin IMO.
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our differences
are mere semantics.
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable not
to sin. That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Either god is in charge of your ability to do good or not. Which is it?
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good.
Except that he created you knowing in advance what your fate is. That is
totally consistent with an all powerfull and all knowing god you see.
Just because God knows in advance what my fate will be, doesn't mean
God will force my fate on me without my consent. It's always my own
choice that determines my own fate. The power that can force people to
do things is not the real powerful. The power that can allow people to
do things is the real powerful.
God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst.
He also provides you with hell which if you actually believe, will cause you
to conform to gods will. Is that what you call free will?
Hell is the place where there is no God. It's created by Satan through
deception. I agree the fear of hell does motivate people to search for
God, but only by overcoming the fear of hell, can we be successful in
following God.
If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Is Jesus the only way to do good? or is the rest of the world going to your
christian hell?
In my opinion, the spirit of Jesus Christ in people's heart is the
only way to do good. You may be a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, but
you still have to follow the spirit in your heart in order to do good
and resist evil.
Tom
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 05:31:11 AM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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|
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 06:51:20 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
Of course. You need to find your own personal savior who lives within
your own heart instead.
.
|
|
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| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 05:18:16 PM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:m6j751h4o48rb9a57drle04v55pti2jjsu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
Of course. You need to find your own personal savior who lives within
your own heart instead.
So apparently, christians don't have a monopoly on salvation?
Tom
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:25:22 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:18:16 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:m6j751h4o48rb9a57drle04v55pti2jjsu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
Of course. You need to find your own personal savior who lives within
your own heart instead.
So apparently, christians don't have a monopoly on salvation?
Salvation comes from God, and God only. Christians are followers of
God, they do not hand out salvation like some Christmas gift.
Tom
.
|
|
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| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 04:46:35 PM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:81r951lj9t6t5s77h6k1rju939m1mue90u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:18:16 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:m6j751h4o48rb9a57drle04v55pti2jjsu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
Of course. You need to find your own personal savior who lives within
your own heart instead.
So apparently, christians don't have a monopoly on salvation?
Salvation comes from God, and God only. Christians are followers of
God, they do not hand out salvation like some Christmas gift.
so non christians can be saved?
Tom
.
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 04:09:48 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:46:35 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:81r951lj9t6t5s77h6k1rju939m1mue90u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:18:16 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:m6j751h4o48rb9a57drle04v55pti2jjsu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
Of course. You need to find your own personal savior who lives within
your own heart instead.
So apparently, christians don't have a monopoly on salvation?
Salvation comes from God, and God only. Christians are followers of
God, they do not hand out salvation like some Christmas gift.
so non christians can be saved?
That would be God's decision which I know nothing about.
Tom
.
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