| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Truth Hunter" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2005 06:48:01 AM |
| Object: |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God =3D Atonement
God created A&E beings knowing from the start that they would not
please him. And when they would not please him, he knew he would have
to arrange to have the humans torture and kill him/God in the form of
Jesus so that he could forgive them for being the way he created them
to be and the way he knew they would be from the beginning. And he
knew, at the beginning, that if people did not accept that he would do
something so utterly ridiculous, he would have to cast them into hell
where they would weep and gnash their teeth in a lake of fire forever.
All this to please his own fragile ego, apparently.
This is the most ridiculous concept I have ever been asked to accept,
and I don't accept it. I cannot accept that an all knowing, all
perfect, all good God would be such a sadistic idiot. Apparently
Christians can.
God sacrificed himself to himself to satisfy his anger and human beings
for being exactly the way he created them to be and for being exactly
the way he knew they would be from the beginnning of time. And yet God
now threatens to torture people for eternity if they don't believe that
he is stupid enough to do something like this.
It constantly amazes me that Christians can pretend that this makes
some kind of sense.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 05:42:55 PM |
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:tv4f51t5631oesbgidh9fo1j3ua1a0nqi6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:46:35 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:81r951lj9t6t5s77h6k1rju939m1mue90u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:18:16 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:m6j751h4o48rb9a57drle04v55pti2jjsu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If
I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able
to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
Of course. You need to find your own personal savior who lives within
your own heart instead.
So apparently, christians don't have a monopoly on salvation?
Salvation comes from God, and God only. Christians are followers of
God, they do not hand out salvation like some Christmas gift.
so non christians can be saved?
That would be God's decision which I know nothing about.
Apparently, you don't understand your own dogma.
Tom
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
10 Apr 2005 05:23:21 AM |
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On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:42:55 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:tv4f51t5631oesbgidh9fo1j3ua1a0nqi6@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:46:35 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:81r951lj9t6t5s77h6k1rju939m1mue90u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:18:16 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:m6j751h4o48rb9a57drle04v55pti2jjsu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:11 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com...
snip
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If
I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able
to
do good.
Pathetic. I don't need your Jesus to "do good".
Of course. You need to find your own personal savior who lives within
your own heart instead.
So apparently, christians don't have a monopoly on salvation?
Salvation comes from God, and God only. Christians are followers of
God, they do not hand out salvation like some Christmas gift.
so non christians can be saved?
That would be God's decision which I know nothing about.
Apparently, you don't understand your own dogma.
What dogma would that be? Christianity has become a variety store,
there are just too many of them.
Tom
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 03:03:23 PM |
|
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do good?
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:25:23 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
.
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| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 04:49:10 PM |
|
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil.
have you not the intellegence to know the difference between right and wrong
and good and evil?
Only by following his will,
No one knows what Jesus' will is, he's been dead for 2000 years and he
personally didn't write a single thing.
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
You sound lost, perhaps you should think about what is right and wrong
instead of expecting something or someone else to do it for you.
Tom
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 06:01:04 AM |
|
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On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:49:10 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil.
have you not the intellegence to know the difference between right and wrong
and good and evil?
I have that intelligence, but I'm not very successful in using that
intelligence. I find having faith in Jesus Christ instead is a lot
safer and easier.
Only by following his will,
No one knows what Jesus' will is, he's been dead for 2000 years and he
personally didn't write a single thing.
Jesus Christ lives in the heart of his believers. This is not a
metaphor. That is why we are able to follow his will.
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
You sound lost, perhaps you should think about what is right and wrong
instead of expecting something or someone else to do it for you.
Jesus Christ is not someone else, he is the Lord of my life.
Tom
.
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| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 05:53:16 PM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:jqcf519lp2v7tk5qagva4tn9um6dmsnu6h@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:49:10 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil.
have you not the intellegence to know the difference between right and
wrong
and good and evil?
I have that intelligence, but I'm not very successful in using that
intelligence. I find having faith in Jesus Christ instead is a lot
safer and easier.
then you in fact don't have the intellegence to know what is right and
wrong. Why are you contradicting yourself? It ain't rocket science.
Only by following his will,
No one knows what Jesus' will is, he's been dead for 2000 years and he
personally didn't write a single thing.
Jesus Christ lives in the heart of his believers.
or put another way, a figment of your imagination.
This is not a
metaphor. That is why we are able to follow his will.
And exactly what difference does that make?
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
You sound lost, perhaps you should think about what is right and wrong
instead of expecting something or someone else to do it for you.
Jesus Christ is not someone else, he is the Lord of my life.
Jesus and Christ are not necessarily the same.
Tom
.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 11:10:04 AM |
|
|
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 02:20:41 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:10:04 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
Oh, in terms of good and evil, I want to be as consistent as possible,
because it's very serious matter.
.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:52:02 PM |
|
|
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2j1b5159dpd8kvmej1lhapeub11h4lpg2k@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:10:04 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus
Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not
be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my
guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will,
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
Oh, in terms of good and evil, I want to be as consistent as possible,
because it's very serious matter.
Why? Would you murder someone if it weren't for Geezuz?
Most "evil" is petty - not even worth a misdemeanor charge, yet your god
is planning on frying you for them.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.
|
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 01:52:47 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:52:02 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2j1b5159dpd8kvmej1lhapeub11h4lpg2k@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:10:04 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus
Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not
be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my
guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will,
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
Oh, in terms of good and evil, I want to be as consistent as possible,
because it's very serious matter.
Why?
Because doing good is to follow God's will, and doing evil is to go
against God's will. I don't want to find myself going against the will
of God ever.
Would you murder someone if it weren't for Geezuz?
No, I would never murder anyone.
Most "evil" is petty - not even worth a misdemeanor charge, yet your god
is planning on frying you for them.
I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about.
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 05:02:21 PM |
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|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ct9c51578mlm9hdbreegre7tql2qs1j0si@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:52:02 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2j1b5159dpd8kvmej1lhapeub11h4lpg2k@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:10:04 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus
Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not
be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my
guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will,
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
Oh, in terms of good and evil, I want to be as consistent as possible,
because it's very serious matter.
Why?
Because doing good is to follow God's will, and doing evil is to go
against God's will.
I trust you realise that you are reciting that like a robot without free
will. You are stuck just where the church has you. You are a product of the
church.
I don't want to find myself going against the will
of God ever.
Then start thinking for yourself.
Would you murder someone if it weren't for Geezuz?
No, I would never murder anyone.
Would you kill someone?
Most "evil" is petty - not even worth a misdemeanor charge, yet your god
is planning on frying you for them.
I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about.
TOm
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 05:48:51 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:02:21 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ct9c51578mlm9hdbreegre7tql2qs1j0si@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:52:02 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2j1b5159dpd8kvmej1lhapeub11h4lpg2k@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:10:04 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus
Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not
be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my
guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will,
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
Oh, in terms of good and evil, I want to be as consistent as possible,
because it's very serious matter.
Why?
Because doing good is to follow God's will, and doing evil is to go
against God's will.
I trust you realise that you are reciting that like a robot without free
will. You are stuck just where the church has you. You are a product of the
church.
Well, I don't go to church. I'm not even a Christian. I'm just a
believer.
I don't want to find myself going against the will
of God ever.
Then start thinking for yourself.
That would be wrong in knowing the will of God.
Would you murder someone if it weren't for Geezuz?
No, I would never murder anyone.
Would you kill someone?
Not really. Why do I have to kill anyone?
Most "evil" is petty - not even worth a misdemeanor charge, yet your god
is planning on frying you for them.
I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about.
TOm
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 05:49:45 PM |
|
|
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:kecf519qlc4aancf00fmd3kfi16mkapos0@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:02:21 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ct9c51578mlm9hdbreegre7tql2qs1j0si@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:52:02 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2j1b5159dpd8kvmej1lhapeub11h4lpg2k@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:10:04 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus
Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not
be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my
guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will,
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
Oh, in terms of good and evil, I want to be as consistent as possible,
because it's very serious matter.
Why?
Because doing good is to follow God's will, and doing evil is to go
against God's will.
I trust you realise that you are reciting that like a robot without free
will. You are stuck just where the church has you. You are a product of
the
church.
Well, I don't go to church. I'm not even a Christian. I'm just a
believer.
And that makes you less indoctrinated?
I don't want to find myself going against the will
of God ever.
Then start thinking for yourself.
That would be wrong in knowing the will of God.
how does one stop the will of god? Is it not inevitable?
Would you murder someone if it weren't for Geezuz?
No, I would never murder anyone.
Would you kill someone?
Not really. Why do I have to kill anyone?
self defense.
Tom
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
10 Apr 2005 05:23:22 AM |
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On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:49:45 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:kecf519qlc4aancf00fmd3kfi16mkapos0@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:02:21 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:ct9c51578mlm9hdbreegre7tql2qs1j0si@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:52:02 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:2j1b5159dpd8kvmej1lhapeub11h4lpg2k@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:10:04 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:b3r951tlt0mut1cueklio61ondogppbm19@4ax.com:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus
Chirst.
If I follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not
be
able to do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my
guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will,
can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
That doesn't mean you can't do good without him. You may not be as
consistent.....
Oh, in terms of good and evil, I want to be as consistent as possible,
because it's very serious matter.
Why?
Because doing good is to follow God's will, and doing evil is to go
against God's will.
I trust you realise that you are reciting that like a robot without free
will. You are stuck just where the church has you. You are a product of
the
church.
Well, I don't go to church. I'm not even a Christian. I'm just a
believer.
And that makes you less indoctrinated?
I would think it makes me less intoxicated. I watched some broadcast
from Vatican. I find the church splendor is not appealing.
I don't want to find myself going against the will
of God ever.
Then start thinking for yourself.
That would be wrong in knowing the will of God.
how does one stop the will of god? Is it not inevitable?
I meant to say, in order to know the will of God, one must not think
for themselves. We should empty ourselves to make room for God
instead.
Would you murder someone if it weren't for Geezuz?
No, I would never murder anyone.
Would you kill someone?
Not really. Why do I have to kill anyone?
self defense.
Thanks to God, I'm lucky to live in a peaceful country. I don't have
to worry about that too much.
Tom
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| User: "Mat Findlay" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:53:35 AM |
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Eric Brze wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
Sorry to butt in here, but wasn't the fruit that Adam and Eve ate from
the tree of knowledge of good and evil? If eating that fruit (And thus,
obtaining that knowledge) is considered the original sin that got us
kicked out of the garden, wouldn't posessing that knowledge still be a
sin to this day?
I find it odd that in one instance, god has a real problem with us
having this knowledge, but in another, he's willing to throw it about to
whoever's willing to listen.
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 07:08:22 AM |
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On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 04:53:35 -0400, Mat Findlay
<someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
Sorry to butt in here, but wasn't the fruit that Adam and Eve ate from
the tree of knowledge of good and evil? If eating that fruit (And thus,
obtaining that knowledge) is considered the original sin that got us
kicked out of the garden, wouldn't posessing that knowledge still be a
sin to this day?
Having the knowledge of good and evil is not sin, but having that
knowledge will cause people to sin. The reason for that is by knowing
good and evil, we know how to judge good and evil, but we forget who
is the judge of good and evil.
I find it odd that in one instance, god has a real problem with us
having this knowledge, but in another, he's willing to throw it about to
whoever's willing to listen.
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 04:52:40 PM |
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:007a519nj02ofplfc8qbcnup5s5oj0b3gv@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 04:53:35 -0400, Mat Findlay
<someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
Sorry to butt in here, but wasn't the fruit that Adam and Eve ate from
the tree of knowledge of good and evil? If eating that fruit (And thus,
obtaining that knowledge) is considered the original sin that got us
kicked out of the garden, wouldn't posessing that knowledge still be a
sin to this day?
Having the knowledge of good and evil is not sin, but having that
knowledge will cause people to sin.
How does knowledge cause us to sin when our free will is the cause of our
actions?
The reason for that is by knowing
good and evil, we know how to judge good and evil, but we forget who
is the judge of good and evil.
I forget, who is the judge of good and evil again? Only your god?
I find it odd that in one instance, god has a real problem with us
having this knowledge, but in another, he's willing to throw it about to
whoever's willing to listen.
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
wow you would make a good preacher, so long as your congragation was
completely devoid of critical thinking.
Respectfully,
Tom
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 04:09:48 AM |
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On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:52:40 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:007a519nj02ofplfc8qbcnup5s5oj0b3gv@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 04:53:35 -0400, Mat Findlay
<someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
Sorry to butt in here, but wasn't the fruit that Adam and Eve ate from
the tree of knowledge of good and evil? If eating that fruit (And thus,
obtaining that knowledge) is considered the original sin that got us
kicked out of the garden, wouldn't posessing that knowledge still be a
sin to this day?
Having the knowledge of good and evil is not sin, but having that
knowledge will cause people to sin.
How does knowledge cause us to sin when our free will is the cause of our
actions?
We sin by making judgment based on our free will instead of God's good
will. It's all because we think we can know good and evil by
ourselves.
The reason for that is by knowing
good and evil, we know how to judge good and evil, but we forget who
is the judge of good and evil.
I forget, who is the judge of good and evil again? Only your god?
Right, only God can judge good and evil.
I find it odd that in one instance, god has a real problem with us
having this knowledge, but in another, he's willing to throw it about to
whoever's willing to listen.
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
wow you would make a good preacher, so long as your congragation was
completely devoid of critical thinking.
Respectfully,
Thanks, but no thanks. I'm one member church with myself as the only
student.
Tom
.
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
09 Apr 2005 05:47:42 PM |
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:qr6f51h0unpled2qed4fuaigrjeh0uaet5@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:52:40 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:007a519nj02ofplfc8qbcnup5s5oj0b3gv@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 04:53:35 -0400, Mat Findlay
<someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able
to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
Sorry to butt in here, but wasn't the fruit that Adam and Eve ate from
the tree of knowledge of good and evil? If eating that fruit (And thus,
obtaining that knowledge) is considered the original sin that got us
kicked out of the garden, wouldn't posessing that knowledge still be a
sin to this day?
Having the knowledge of good and evil is not sin, but having that
knowledge will cause people to sin.
How does knowledge cause us to sin when our free will is the cause of our
actions?
We sin by making judgment based on our free will instead of God's good
will. It's all because we think we can know good and evil by
ourselves.
Anyone can follow the 10 commandments and not know god.
The reason for that is by knowing
good and evil, we know how to judge good and evil, but we forget who
is the judge of good and evil.
I forget, who is the judge of good and evil again? Only your god?
Right, only God can judge good and evil.
So why do people disagree on what is right and wrong? Is it because god is
not telling them the same story?
I find it odd that in one instance, god has a real problem with us
having this knowledge, but in another, he's willing to throw it about to
whoever's willing to listen.
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
wow you would make a good preacher, so long as your congragation was
completely devoid of critical thinking.
Respectfully,
Thanks, but no thanks. I'm one member church with myself as the only
student.
don't skip class what ever you do.
Tom
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
10 Apr 2005 05:23:22 AM |
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|
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:47:42 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:qr6f51h0unpled2qed4fuaigrjeh0uaet5@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:52:40 -0400, "Tom" <ttt@tboytel.net> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:007a519nj02ofplfc8qbcnup5s5oj0b3gv@4ax.com...
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 04:53:35 -0400, Mat Findlay
<someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:03:23 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:hgr651920lqskn17q0kv8mba3mg8opr4so@4ax.com:
No, God is not in charge of my ability to do good. God provides me
the
ability to do good, by showing me his will thruogh Jesus Chirst. If I
follow Jesus, I will do good. If I ignore Jesus, I will not be able
to
do good.
Why the ***** not? What does Jesus have to do with you choosing to do
good?
Because the spirit of Jesus Christ who lives in my heart is my guiding
light to know the real good and evil. Only by following his will, can
I be sure that I am doing something good instead of evil.
Sorry to butt in here, but wasn't the fruit that Adam and Eve ate from
the tree of knowledge of good and evil? If eating that fruit (And thus,
obtaining that knowledge) is considered the original sin that got us
kicked out of the garden, wouldn't posessing that knowledge still be a
sin to this day?
Having the knowledge of good and evil is not sin, but having that
knowledge will cause people to sin.
How does knowledge cause us to sin when our free will is the cause of our
actions?
We sin by making judgment based on our free will instead of God's good
will. It's all because we think we can know good and evil by
ourselves.
Anyone can follow the 10 commandments and not know god.
That's because God is not just a mental concept with a name tag.
People don't have to know the mental concept or the name tag, but
people must know God in order to truly practice the 10 commandments.
The reason for that is by knowing
good and evil, we know how to judge good and evil, but we forget who
is the judge of good and evil.
I forget, who is the judge of good and evil again? Only your god?
Right, only God can judge good and evil.
So why do people disagree on what is right and wrong? Is it because god is
not telling them the same story?
People disagree with each other because with our limited knowledge and
ability, we can only see part of the picture, not the whole picture.
It has nothing to do with what God is telling us. God has been telling
us about his Truth for thousands of years, we still don't get it.
I find it odd that in one instance, god has a real problem with us
having this knowledge, but in another, he's willing to throw it about to
whoever's willing to listen.
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
wow you would make a good preacher, so long as your congragation was
completely devoid of critical thinking.
Respectfully,
Thanks, but no thanks. I'm one member church with myself as the only
student.
don't skip class what ever you do.
I won't. I'm a good student. :-)
Tom
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 08:01:08 AM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
When are you gonna give up such a stupid belief?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 02:13:03 PM |
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On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:01:08 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
When are you gonna give up such a stupid belief?
Since you haven't been able to prove there is anything wrong with my
belief, I find no reason to give it up. I guess you just have to try
harder.
:-)
.
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:50:25 PM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:he1b51t8mp5irvtlnv71dnbdrcfcohftr7@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:01:08 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
When are you gonna give up such a stupid belief?
Since you haven't been able to prove there is anything wrong with my
belief, I find no reason to give it up. I guess you just have to try
harder.
You believe Genesis literally? Not even the Jews do that. It's not only
stupid, it's pretty loony as well.
--
DWA should be a felony.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 01:41:21 AM |
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On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:50:25 GMT, Dave Lister
<retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in
news:he1b51t8mp5irvtlnv71dnbdrcfcohftr7@4ax.com:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:01:08 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
When are you gonna give up such a stupid belief?
Since you haven't been able to prove there is anything wrong with my
belief, I find no reason to give it up. I guess you just have to try
harder.
You believe Genesis literally? Not even the Jews do that. It's not only
stupid, it's pretty loony as well.
You have to define the word "literally" for me, before I can answer
that question. So far, I haven't been able to find a good definition
to my satisfaction.
:-)
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:34:32 PM |
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Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
God has no problem with people having the knowledge of good and evil.
We have the problem of having the true knowledge of good and evil. The
knowledge Adam and Eve learned was not the complete knowledge.
When are you gonna give up such a stupid belief?
Since you haven't been able to prove there is anything wrong with my
belief, I find no reason to give it up. I guess you just have to try
harder.
:-)
It's too late for that. You're a lost cause. :)
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
05 Apr 2005 03:29:13 PM |
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Eric Brze wrote:
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
(snip)
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by
the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our
differences
are mere semantics.
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable not
to sin.
That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Here's where I think the difference is merely semantic: it seems
contradictory to me to say that it is by our free will that we are
unable to refrain from sin--if we are unable to refrain then it's not a
sin. So apparently our disagreement has more to do with what it means
to be "able" to refrain from sinning. Here's my take:
1. Our free decisions come from our will so in a sense our will is
logically prior to our free decisions and to that extent it makes no
sense to talk about us choosing to want differently from what we *do*
want. Frequently what we want to do is sin and consequently we do sin.
2. But if we can't choose to want differently, *God* can put us in
situations where our wills do change, thus *GOd* can change us
eventually into people who don't want to sin. IMO it's par of free will
that we have to cooperate with this change or it won't happen.
Keith
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
06 Apr 2005 05:00:36 PM |
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<> wrote in message
news:1112732953.783397.46770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Eric Brze wrote:
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On 4 Apr 2005 16:55:12 -0700, wrote:
?om wrote:
< > wrote in message
(snip)
In my opinion, sin is not a matter of choice. Regardless what we
choose, we sin by our own "freewill". Only by the will of God, by
the
will of Jesus Christ, can we not to sin.
I agree that we sin by our own free will. I think the our
differences
are mere semantics.
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable not
to sin.
That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Here's where I think the difference is merely semantic: it seems
contradictory to me to say that it is by our free will that we are
unable to refrain from sin--if we are unable to refrain then it's not a
sin. So apparently our disagreement has more to do with what it means
to be "able" to refrain from sinning. Here's my take:
1. Our free decisions come from our will so in a sense our will is
logically prior to our free decisions and to that extent it makes no
sense to talk about us choosing to want differently from what we *do*
want. Frequently what we want to do is sin and consequently we do sin.
This is a good point. The question arises, can we will as we will?
2. But if we can't choose to want differently, *God* can put us in
situations where our wills do change, thus *GOd* can change us
eventually into people who don't want to sin.
Is it god that is changing us or is there a need for change or a motivation
away from say a destructive pattern in our lives and we attribute this to
god some how. IE humans are optomozing creatures and have a great capacity
for change. If I steal, go to jail, endure the suffering and pschycology of
jail. Then that is a new motive not to steal. I can say that god is guiding
me but is that really the case?
IMO it's par of free will
that we have to cooperate with this change or it won't happen.
to cooperate may be another word for limited choices to avoid further pain,
physical or emotional.
Tom
Keith
.
|
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
07 Apr 2005 03:37:39 PM |
|
|
Tom wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112732953.783397.46770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Eric Brze wrote:
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
(snip)
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply
we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable
not
to sin.
That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Here's where I think the difference is merely semantic: it seems
contradictory to me to say that it is by our free will that we are
unable to refrain from sin--if we are unable to refrain then it's
not a
sin. So apparently our disagreement has more to do with what it
means
to be "able" to refrain from sinning. Here's my take:
1. Our free decisions come from our will so in a sense our will is
logically prior to our free decisions and to that extent it makes
no
sense to talk about us choosing to want differently from what we
*do*
want. Frequently what we want to do is sin and consequently we do
sin.
This is a good point. The question arises, can we will as we will?
Are you asking me if we can choose to want differently than we actually
want to? If so, I addressed that below. I'd say that since our will is
logically prior to our choosing something--choosing something means
acting according to our will--we have to already want something in
order to choose it which would mean there's a sense in which we cannot
choose to change our will.
2. But if we can't choose to want differently, *God* can put us in
situations where our wills do change, thus *GOd* can change us
eventually into people who don't want to sin.
Is it god that is changing us or is there a need for change or a
motivation
away from say a destructive pattern in our lives and we attribute
this to
god some how. IE humans are optomozing creatures and have a great
capacity
for change. If I steal, go to jail, endure the suffering and
pschycology of
jail. Then that is a new motive not to steal. I can say that god is
guiding
me but is that really the case?
I agree that we can learn to behave differently. But in the case of a
guy who learns that stealing leads to prison and isn't worth the pain,
but how has he really changed? He might still think that if he *could*
gain by hurting someone else then by God that's what he'll do. He still
has the same attitude wrt who fellow humans, that hasn't changed at
all.
Keith
IMO it's par of free will
that we have to cooperate with this change or it won't happen.
to cooperate may be another word for limited choices to avoid further
pain,
physical or emotional.
Tom
Keith
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Adam/ Eve's sin and the torture of Jesus/God = Atonement |
08 Apr 2005 05:45:37 PM |
|
|
<> wrote in message
news:1112906259.552421.234650@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Tom wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:1112732953.783397.46770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Eric Brze wrote:
On 5 Apr 2005 11:48:14 -0700, wrote:
(snip)
Actually, I think there might be some difference. It's not simply
we
sin by our own free will. It's by our own free will we are unable
not
to sin.
That's why I think sin is not a matter of choice. By our own
free will, no matter what we choose, we always sin. That is why we
need Jesus Christ, because only by following his will, we can stop
sinning.
Here's where I think the difference is merely semantic: it seems
contradictory to me to say that it is by our free will that we are
unable to refrain from sin--if we are unable to refrain then it's
not a
sin. So apparently our disagreement has more to do with what it
means
to be "able" to refrain from sinning. Here's my take:
1. Our free decisions come from our will so in a sense our will is
logically prior to our free decisions and to that extent it makes
no
sense to talk about us choosing to want differently from what we
*do*
want. Frequently what we want to do is sin and consequently we do
sin.
This is a good point. The question arises, can we will as we will?
Are you asking me if we can choose to want differently than we actually
want to? If so, I addressed that below. I'd say that since our will is
logically prior to our choosing something--choosing something means
acting according to our will--we have to already want something in
order to choose it which would mean there's a sense in which we cannot
choose to change our will.
2. But if we can't choose to want differently, *God* can put us in
situations where our wills do change, thus *GOd* can change us
eventually into people who don't want to sin.
Is it god that is changing us or is there a need for change or a
motivation
away from say a destructive pattern in our lives and we attribute
this to
god some how. IE humans are optomozing creatures and have a great
capacity
for change. I | | | | |
