| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Elroy Willis" |
| Date: |
03 Jan 2004 11:23:04 AM |
| Object: |
Age of Aquarius |
Note: This is crossposted to alt.astrology and alt.bible. I'm not
attempting to start a flame war, but rather to start up a rational
discussion on the "Age of Aquarius" and how it relates to the Bible
and astrology.
I just finished reading "The DaVinci Code" and am doing some research
on one of the ideas brought up in the book, namely that of some new
"Age of Aquarius," and what will mark its exact beginning.
Anyone who has done a fair amount of reading about Jesus will have
certainly run across claims that he was supposed to be some marker for
the beginning of the age of Pisces, what with the fish symbolisms and
all that were used by the first Christians and the Jesus fishes on
cars today.
So, I started web-surfing, reading different sites from modern
astrologers, trying to get an idea of what they think might mark some
actual "beginning" of the "Age of Aquarius," and the results were
interesting in many ways.
Much of it seems to include "end of the world" type ideas, with wars
and earthquakes and stuff that you read about in the Bible, from what
I've seen so far. Those are present in all times throughout history,
so seeing them around you is no indication of anything "new" at least
in my opinion. History repeats itself, so it's said...
From:
http://raphaelonline.com/Aquarius.htm
"In no way is this new age the end of the world or a final time of any
sort, except in regard to the end of this present day Earth
civilization."
I wonder what this guy means by "end of this present day Earth
civilization." Probably some WWIII, or armageddon or doomsday
situation?
Reading on...
"Much mischief and evil is connected with this change, especially in
respect to religions, and the use of new scientific discoveries and
advancements. These will increase and continue until the end of this
present day civilization, which will come by way of World War III."
Yep, WWIII. Another doomsayer. I wonder if doomsaying is parcel
and part of all astrologers beliefs? I don't know for sure...
From:
http://www.paranormality.com/age_of_aquarius.shtml
"Age of Aquarius : The Age of Aquarius can mean the end of an era,
(age of Pisces) and the beginning of another. Many feel the Age of
Aquarius heralds the coming of the "end of times" as written in the
Bible, others feel it is the dawning of the "new world order".
Whatever it means it is still mysterious, and opinions differ widely
in the Astrology community."
This is starting out a little better... It's recognized that opinions
differ widely among astrologers as to when some "exact beginning"
of the "Age of Aquarius" began, or will begin.
"Thus, the spring equinox has been occurring in Pisces for the past
several thousand years and will begin to occur in the constellation
Aquarius in the near future. This is the background for current
speculations about the so-called Age of Aquarius. The phenomenon of
the precession of equinoxes also means that the spring equinox
occurred in the sign Aries during the Hellenistic period (the period
of Ptolemy), in Taurus several thousand years prior to the Hellenistic
period, and so forth backward through the zodiac."
[...]
Although I don't personally believe in astrology, or at least the
astrological idea that the position of constellations or planets can
affect people's personalities and futures, I do accept the above as an
objective fact which can be proven true through research. The
"wobble" of the earth causes the constellation seen on the
spring equinox (or any other time actually) to slowly change over
time.
"Thus, attention is called to the negative Piscean tendency to adopt
an attitude of blind faith, and to the positive Aquarian tendency to
adopt a more empirical attitude."
I'm all for people giving up blind faith, and even astrology, and
moving on to some new age of reason where people think more
empirically and logically, tossing out superstition and those who sell
it along the way.
It wouldn't bother me a bit to see the RCC and other religious
organizations go down the tubes, as well as the astrologers who
make money off of other people by "selling" them some charts or
horoscopes. Same for the fake faith healers, and the phoney psychics
out there. Wouldn't bother me to see them all go away, just like Miss
Cleo seems to have gone away, at least around here.
On to another page...
From:
http://www.lightforthelastdays.co.uk/docs/cults_occult/aquarius.html
"The Daily Mail (29/12/97 - 2/1/98) featured a series of articles by
astrologer Jonathan Cainer, who claims that 'the Age of Aquarius is
truly dawning.' The articles paint a rosy view of the future in
contrast with 'gloomy visions' that the 20th century would end 'in
chaos and collapse'. Cainer believes the 20th Century has 'run out of
steam' and we are now about to create 'a world based on enlightenment,
prosperity, freedom and tolerance.'"
Kinda weird that "running out of steam" would lead to enlightenment,
but then I thought about getting old, and getting wiser in old age,
and moving slower...
"The "face of the man" is the ancient sign of Aquarius, the sign of
the man carrying the water-pot, to which Christ referred when He sent
His disciples into the city, saying: "Behold, when ye are entered into
the city, there shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water;
follow him into the house where he entereth in." (St. Luke, XXII, 10.)
This is the zodiacal sign into which we are entering."
I find a problem with this idea, since if Jesus was supposed to be
ushering in the age of Pisces, why would he speak of some water
pitcher and the age of Aquarius?
It then dawned on me that if Jesus was actually an astrologer, and
was trying to martyr himself as the marker for the new age of Pisces,
then he might likely speak in some code to his disciples about
"bearing the cross" or "bearing the crossing over" into some new
astrological age. The part about the water pitcher could have been
a message to any future Christian astrologers who wanted to martyr
themselves as part of some "new age" marker.
[...]
'If the Age of Aquarius is upon us, what have we been living through
until now? The answer is the Age of Pisces. For just as the turning of
the earth has its yearly seasons, it traces, as it travels through the
sky, a much broader cyclic pattern... The Egyptians knew all about
this. So did the Greeks. They called it a 'great year' and they
subdivided it into 12 'great months', each named after a different
Zodiac sign. Each 'great month' lasts roughly 2,160 years. The last,
Pisces, had just begun when Christ was born in Bethlehem. It's
interesting to speculate that it may be no coincidence that the early
Christians used a fish as a symbol of their faith.'"
What I'm interested in is what kind of symbol the people who believe
the "Age of Aquarius" is upon us will use, or are using right now.
Any examples that anyone wants to present?
For Pisces, it was a fish, and for Aquarius, it's supposed to be a
water pitcher or water bearer? Since fish live in water, is there a
connection there?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
12 Feb 2004 05:57:12 PM |
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"JessHC" wrote:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one
of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his
hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
That kind of implies they wouldn't live forever if they didn't eat
from the tree of life. Death was inevitable without eating from that
tree. Eve had nothing to do with "bringing death into creation."
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Bzzzzt! Wrong.
What its getting at is that death was not prescribed by God. It could have
been avoided by their being obedient.
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
12 Feb 2004 08:26:54 PM |
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And so upon Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:57:12 +0000 didst georgann speak thusly:
"JessHC" wrote:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one
of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his
hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
That kind of implies they wouldn't live forever if they didn't eat
from the tree of life. Death was inevitable without eating from that
tree. Eve had nothing to do with "bringing death into creation."
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Bzzzzt! Wrong.
What its getting at is that death was not prescribed by God. It could have
been avoided by their being obedient.
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
13 Feb 2004 05:41:01 AM |
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"JessHC" wrote:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
That kind of implies they wouldn't live forever if they didn't eat from the
tree of life. Death was inevitable without eating from that tree. Eve had
nothing to do with "bringing death into creation."
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Bzzzzt! Wrong. What its getting at is that death was not prescribed by God.
It could have been avoided by their being obedient.
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
Genesis 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the
garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil you shall not eat
Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of
the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the
middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it,
or you will die.'"
Genesis 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten
from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Had A & E not thought they had disobeyed Adam would not have felt the need
to blame Eve and Eve would not have felt the need to blame the serpent.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
13 Feb 2004 09:33:09 AM |
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And so upon Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:41:01 +0000 didst georgann speak thusly:
"JessHC" wrote:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
That kind of implies they wouldn't live forever if they didn't eat from the
tree of life. Death was inevitable without eating from that tree. Eve had
nothing to do with "bringing death into creation."
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Bzzzzt! Wrong. What its getting at is that death was not prescribed by God.
It could have been avoided by their being obedient.
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree
of life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
14 Feb 2004 07:05:21 AM |
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The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
Man, I'm positively dizzy with your twisting of the things said. In fact,
the text does not anywhere say they did NOT have access to the Tree of Life
prior to their stealing from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The
argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life before
that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
14 Feb 2004 10:29:40 AM |
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And so upon Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:05:21 +0000 didst georgann speak thusly:
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
Man, I'm positively dizzy with your twisting of the things said. In fact,
the text does not anywhere say they did NOT have access to the Tree of Life
prior to their stealing from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The
argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life before
that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
Weird isn't it that god forgot about that one at first?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
14 Feb 2004 11:53:27 PM |
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On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:05:21 GMT, georgann <chenault@mindspring.com>
wrote:
the text does not anywhere say they did NOT have access to the Tree of Life
prior to their stealing from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The
Where did you read about that stealing? Or the voices told you so?
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
14 Feb 2004 08:34:22 AM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
Man, I'm positively dizzy with your twisting of the things said. In fact,
the text does not anywhere say they did NOT have access to the Tree of Life
prior to their stealing from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life
before that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
Now it's you who's twisting things to make them mean what you want
them to mean. Do you believe the stories about a fountain of youth,
as well as the tree of life story?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 07:32:29 AM |
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georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life
before that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
"Elroy Willis" wrote:
Now it's you who's twisting things to make them mean what you want them to
mean. Do you believe the stories about a fountain of youth, as well as the
tree of life story?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
No cause there is no "fountain of youth" story anywhere in God's word.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 10:07:41 AM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in alt.atheism
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life
before that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
"Elroy Willis" wrote:
Now it's you who's twisting things to make them mean what you want them to
mean. Do you believe the stories about a fountain of youth, as well as the
tree of life story?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
No cause there is no "fountain of youth" story anywhere in God's word.
When you get to live forever, you're stuck at the age you die,
according to your current beliefs?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 08:20:02 AM |
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georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life
before that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
"Elroy Willis" wrote:
Now it's you who's twisting things to make them mean what you want them to
mean. Do you believe the stories about a fountain of youth, as well as the
tree of life story?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
No cause there is no "fountain of youth" story anywhere in God's word.
"Elroy Willis" wrote:
When you get to live forever, you're stuck at the age you die,
according to your current beliefs?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Doesn't say that anywhere either. No I don't believe that.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 08:50:17 AM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in alt.atheism
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The argument could be made that they did have access
to the Tree of Life before that time because it says they could
eat from any tree except ...
"Elroy Willis" wrote:
Now it's you who's twisting things to make them mean what you want them to
mean. Do you believe the stories about a fountain of youth, as well as the
tree of life story?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
No cause there is no "fountain of youth" story anywhere in God's word.
"Elroy Willis" wrote:
When you get to live forever, you're stuck at the age you die,
according to your current beliefs?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Doesn't say that anywhere either. No I don't believe that.
You can pretty much make up whatever you want, right?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 03:56:16 PM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<BC54DF1C.353650FD%chenault@mindspring.com>...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life
before that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
"Elroy Willis" wrote:
Now it's you who's twisting things to make them mean what you want them to
mean. Do you believe the stories about a fountain of youth, as well as the
tree of life story?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
No cause there is no "fountain of youth" story anywhere in God's word.
He didn't say there was.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
14 Feb 2004 08:32:12 PM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<BC538740.35364BFF%chenault@mindspring.com>...
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
Yep. And "You will die in that day" was said before. It's ironic
they could only discover god's lie after they'd eaten the forbidden
fruit.
Man, I'm positively dizzy with your twisting of the things said. In fact,
the text does not anywhere say they did NOT have access to the Tree of Life
prior to their stealing from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The
argument could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life before
that time because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
You're dizzy because we keep pointing out it doesn't say what you
claim it says, and it says a lot of things you insist it doesn't.
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 07:36:10 AM |
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georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
"JessHC" wrote:
Yep. And "You will die in that day" was said before. It's ironic they could
only discover god's lie after they'd eaten the forbidden fruit.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Since God didn't lie to them, you only show how you would have eaten the
forbidden fruit too. Shall we call you Adam from now on?
Man, I'm positively dizzy with your twisting of the things said. In fact, the
text does not anywhere say they did NOT have access to the Tree of Life prior
to their stealing from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The argument
could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life before that time
because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
"JessHC" wrote:
You're dizzy because we keep pointing out it doesn't say what you claim it
says, and it says a lot of things you insist it doesn't.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
I know what it says because God opened my eyes when I became born again. The
Bible is forever a mystery to those who don't know who He really is.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 12:21:11 PM |
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And so upon Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:36:10 +0000 didst georgann speak thusly:
The
Bible is forever a mystery to those who don't know who He really is.
Making "evangelism" an utter waste of time eh?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 08:24:26 AM |
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The Bible is forever a mystery to those who don't know who He really is.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Making "evangelism" an utter waste of time eh?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
?? Not if you introduce someone to God personally. The Bible is only one way
of opening a person's eyes. But they must be ready and willing to have their
eyes opened.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
17 Feb 2004 11:18:51 PM |
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And so upon Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:24:26 +0000 didst georgann speak thusly:
The Bible is forever a mystery to those who don't know who He really is.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Making "evangelism" an utter waste of time eh?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
?? Not if you introduce someone to God personally. The Bible is only one way
of opening a person's eyes. But they must be ready and willing to have their
eyes opened.
Right. You take them to heaven for the weekend do you now?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 02:21:28 PM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach georgann:
The Bible is forever a mystery to those who don't know who He really
is.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Making "evangelism" an utter waste of time eh?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
?? Not if you introduce someone to God personally. The Bible is only one
way of opening a person's eyes. But they must be ready and willing to
have their eyes opened.
I've had several people introduce me to God personally. I am yet to see
him or hear him. I remember praying as a teenager, then breaking down in
tears. I thought, THIS finally must be God! But then I realized it was
just me, reacting to how utterly stupid I felt.
Yup. My eyes were opened all right.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
______________
The fool says in his heart "there is no God".
The wise man says it to the world.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 08:51:50 AM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in alt.atheism
The Bible is only one way of opening a person's eyes. But they must
be ready and willing to have their eyes opened.
They must be open to hypnotism, iow.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 03:55:24 PM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<BC54DFF9.35365100%chenault@mindspring.com>...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
"JessHC" wrote:
Yep. And "You will die in that day" was said before. It's ironic they could
only discover god's lie after they'd eaten the forbidden fruit.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Since God didn't lie to them, you only show how you would have eaten the
forbidden fruit too. Shall we call you Adam from now on?
Man, I'm positively dizzy with your twisting of the things said. In fact, the
text does not anywhere say they did NOT have access to the Tree of Life prior
to their stealing from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The argument
could be made that they did have access to the Tree of Life before that time
because it says they could eat from any tree except ...
"JessHC" wrote:
You're dizzy because we keep pointing out it doesn't say what you claim it
says, and it says a lot of things you insist it doesn't.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
I know what it says because God opened my eyes when I became born again. The
Bible is forever a mystery to those who don't know who He really is.
Ah, so you've got the top secret decoder ring that translates what it
actually says into what it really means, and even adds stuff that mere
mortals can't see. Did you get that in a box of condoms?
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 04:10:33 PM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<BC54DFF9.35365100%chenault@mindspring.com>...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
"JessHC" wrote:
Yep. And "You will die in that day" was said before. It's ironic they could
only discover god's lie after they'd eaten the forbidden fruit.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Since God didn't lie to them, you only show how you would have eaten the
forbidden fruit too. Shall we call you Adam from now on?
Sorry, hit send too quickly. Call me what you'd like, you obviously
have no hesitation about changing words to mean what you need them to
mean. It is established early in Genesis that there are days and
nights and seasons and years:
"Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the
sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to
mark seasons and days and years, ..."
It isn't until Psalms that someone suggests a thousand years are
*like* a day to god, and it doesn't say a thousand years ARE one of
god's days.
"Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has
just gone by, or like a watch in the night." ^^^^^^^^^^
(with any luck, that will line up correctly)
God doesn't say to Adam "If you eat the apple you'll die in one of my
days, which is equivalent to a thousand of your puny earth years." He
doesn't say anything other than "in that day." You're forcing an
interpretation that isn't supported by the story AT ALL. If god had
been truthful, his little playtoys would have been dead before the
next sunrise, because here on earth, that's how we've measured days
for as long as anyone can remember.
So try again, adulteress.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 08:31:15 AM |
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snip
"JessHC" wrote:
Call me what you'd like, you obviously have no hesitation about changing words
to mean what you need them to mean. It is established early in Genesis that
there are days and nights and seasons and years:
"Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to
separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons
and days and years, ..."
It isn't until Psalms that someone suggests a thousand years are *like* a day
to god, and it doesn't say a thousand years ARE one of god's days.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Do you honestly think God should have felt obliged to put everything in
perfect order book and chapter-wise?
You would have liked the Bible better if it read like a recipe book or a
technical manual for some very complex structure? I can see it now - list of
numbered parts with drawings for each item needed to fully assemble,
excruciatingly boring paragraphs on how to assemble the sub-components and
then the drawing and paragraphs of the completed sub-components, how to join
the sub-components and on and on. Only you forgot this is about people and
thoughts and feelings ... not just things.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 06:12:33 PM |
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And so upon Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:31:15 +0000 didst georgann speak thusly:
You would have liked the Bible better if it read like a recipe book or a
technical manual for some very complex structure?
No. Some coherence might be nice...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
16 Feb 2004 01:27:50 PM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<BC563E62.353655D9%chenault@mindspring.com>...
snip
"JessHC" wrote:
Call me what you'd like, you obviously have no hesitation about changing words
to mean what you need them to mean. It is established early in Genesis that
there are days and nights and seasons and years:
"Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to
separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons
and days and years, ..."
It isn't until Psalms that someone suggests a thousand years are *like* a day
to god, and it doesn't say a thousand years ARE one of god's days.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Do you honestly think God should have felt obliged to put everything in
perfect order book and chapter-wise?
I think any god worthy of the title should be logically consistent.
Unfortunately, that pretty much eliminates all of them.
You would have liked the Bible better if it read like a recipe book or a
technical manual for some very complex structure? I can see it now - list of
numbered parts with drawings for each item needed to fully assemble,
excruciatingly boring paragraphs on how to assemble the sub-components and
then the drawing and paragraphs of the completed sub-components, how to join
the sub-components and on and on. Only you forgot this is about people and
thoughts and feelings ... not just things.
You know what I'd really like? For you to stop claiming you "know"
what the bible says because you "understand" how to "interpret" it,
since god "visited" you in your kitchen. It's not my fault it doesn't
say what you so desperately want it to say.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
15 Feb 2004 04:10:36 PM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<BC54DFF9.35365100%chenault@mindspring.com>...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Yet it also says they would live forever if they *also ate from the "tree of
life." So by the text, they weren't going to live forever anyway.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Lest they live forever" if they ate from the tree of Life - was said after
they had fallen.
"JessHC" wrote:
Yep. And "You will die in that day" was said before. It's ironic they could
only discover god's lie after they'd eaten the forbidden fruit.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Since God didn't lie to them, you only show how you would have eaten the
forbidden fruit too. Shall we call you Adam from now on?
Sorry, hit send too quickly. Call me what you'd like, you obviously
have no hesitation about changing words to mean what you need them to
mean. It is established early in Genesis that there are days and
nights and seasons and years:
"Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the
sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to
mark seasons and days and years, ..."
It isn't until Psalms that someone suggests a thousand years are
*like* a day to god, and it doesn't say a thousand years ARE one of
god's days.
"Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has
just gone by, or like a watch in the night." ^^^^^^^^^^
(with any luck, that will line up correctly)
God doesn't say to Adam "If you eat the apple you'll die in one of my
days, which is equivalent to a thousand of your puny earth years." He
doesn't say anything other than "in that day." You're forcing an
interpretation that isn't supported by the story AT ALL. If god had
been truthful, his little playtoys would have been dead before the
next sunrise, because here on earth, that's how we've measured days
for as long as anyone can remember.
So try again, adulteress.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
13 Feb 2004 09:45:01 AM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<BC5221FB.35364684%chenault@mindspring.com>...
"JessHC" wrote:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
That kind of implies they wouldn't live forever if they didn't eat from the
tree of life. Death was inevitable without eating from that tree. Eve had
nothing to do with "bringing death into creation."
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Bzzzzt! Wrong. What its getting at is that death was not prescribed by God.
It could have been avoided by their being obedient.
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
Genesis 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the
garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil you shall not eat
Interesting that you left off the last bit.
Genesis 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of
the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from
it you will surely die."
Hmm, and then they didn't die in that day. It was probably a bad omen
that god found it expedient to lie right from the beginning.
Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of
the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the
middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it,
or you will die.'"
And then the serpent told them the truth:
Genesis 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be
opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
They didn't die, and they knew good and evil. Why would god lie, and
the serpent tell the truth?
Genesis 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten
from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Had A & E not thought they had disobeyed Adam would not have felt the need
to blame Eve and Eve would not have felt the need to blame the serpent.
Of course, had they not eaten from the tree they wouldn't have known
it was wrong to disobey.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
13 Feb 2004 01:49:02 PM |
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Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of
us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand
and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
That kind of implies they wouldn't live forever if they didn't eat from
the tree of life. Death was inevitable without eating from that tree.
Eve had nothing to do with "bringing death into creation."
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Bzzzzt! Wrong. What its getting at is that death was not prescribed by God.
It could have been avoided by their being obedient.
The whole mess of death, disaster, deformity and disease stems from
disobedience to God's perfect will.
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Except that, as usual, nothing in the actual text supports your demented
delusions...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The text is very specifically about their obedience and or disobedience -
more so than anything else.
Genesis 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the
garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil you shall not eat
"JessHC" wrote:
Interesting that you left off the last bit.
Genesis 2:16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the
garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely
die."
Hmm, and then they didn't die in that day. It was probably a bad omen that
god found it expedient to lie right from the beginning.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
But they did die "in that day". With the LORD a day is as a thousand years
and Adam did not make it to 1000. You aren't very familiar with the
idiosyncrasies of actual Bible text are you?
Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of
the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the
middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it,
or you will die.'"
"JessHC" wrote:
And then the serpent told them the truth:
Genesis 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For
God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you
will be like God, knowing good and evil."
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
The serpent lied. They did not become like God. They only took on one
characteristic of God - knowing good and evil.
"JessHC" wrote:
They didn't die, and they knew good and evil. Why would god lie, and the
serpent tell the truth?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Because you're head is on backwards? That's the only thing I can think of
that would make you confuse what was said so badly.
Genesis 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten
from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Had A & E not thought they had disobeyed Adam would not have felt the need to
blame Eve and Eve would not have felt the need to blame the serpent.
"JessHC" wrote:
Of course, had they not eaten from the tree they wouldn't have known it was
wrong to disobey.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
You're a very confused person.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
13 Feb 2004 10:19:17 PM |
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On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:49:02 GMT, georgann <chenault@mindspring.com>
wrote:
But they did die "in that day". With the LORD a day is as a thousand years
and Adam did not make it to 1000. You aren't very familiar with the
idiosyncrasies of actual Bible text are you?
Better than you. I read the text, I don't make it up as I go.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Georgann still sins |
14 Feb 2004 08:36:27 AM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in alt.atheism
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
You're a very confused person.
My irony meter just exploded again. Damn it.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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