| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
| Date: |
27 Apr 2005 10:42:02 PM |
| Object: |
ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
Albert Einstein's "Cosmic Religion"
Philosophically, God's existence is something that is
reasoned to (as with all other propositions whatever, as
well). In a larger epistemology, including religious
faith, it is not. I would argue that man is inherently
religious (anthropology easily bears this out), so that
the religious impulse must be stifled in an atheist. It
is already there.
If even rigorous philosophical and scientific minds like
David Hume and Einstein look at the universe and
immediately sees some sort of Intelligence behind it
(though not the Christian God), surely there is something
to even Paul's assertion of the "plainness" of God's
existence, in Romans 1. Hume even stated that "no
rational enquirer can, after serious reflection, suspend
his belief a moment with regard to the primary principles
of genuine Theism and Religion . . ." Einstein made a
number of such statements:
My comprehension of God comes from the deeply felt
conviction of a superior intelligence that reveals
itself in the knowable world. In common terms, one can
describe it as 'pantheistic' (Spinoza).
(Answer to the question, "What is your understanding
of God?" Kaizo, 5, no. 2, 1923, 197. in Alice
Calaprice, editor, The Expanded Quotable Einstein,
Princeton Univ. Press, 2000, 203)
Now, I ask atheists: whence comes Einstein's "deeply felt
conviction"? Is it a philosophical reason or the end
result of a syllogism? He simply has it. It is an
intuitive or instinctive feeling or "knowledge" or "sense
of wonder at the incredible, mind-boggling marvels of the
universe" in those who have it. Atheists don't possess
this intuition, but my point is that it is not utterly
implausible or unable to be held by even the most
rigorous, "non-dogmatic" intellects, such as Einstein and
Hume. And the atheist has to account for that fact
somehow, it seems to me.
My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the
infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the
little that we can comprehend about the knowable
world. That deeply emotional conviction of the
presence of a superior reasoning power, which is
revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my
idea of God.
(Calaprice, ibid., 204 / To a banker in Colorado,
1927. Einstein Archive 48-380; also quoted in Dukas
and Hoffmann, Albert Einstein, the Human Side, 66, and
in the New York Times obituary, April 19, 1955)
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the
harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who
concerns himself with the fate and actions of human
beings.
(Calaprice, ibid., 204 / Telegram to a Jewish
nespaper, 1929. Einstein Archive 33-272)
What do atheists think Einstein meant here when he used
the word "believe"? Do they think he had an elaborate
argument that ended in his conclusion: "I believe in
Spinoza's God"?
I am of the opinion that all the finer speculations in
the realm of science spring from a deep religious
feeling.
(Calaprice, ibid., 206 / Forum and Century 83, 1930,
373)
What does Einstein mean by "deep religious feeling"? Is
this a philosophical and/or demonstrable or provable
concept? Or is it more like an intuition? How can it be
epistemically justified? How can a man like Einstein hold
such a view in the first place, according to the atheist?
Perhaps he himself provides an answer of sorts:
It is very difficult to elucidate this [cosmic
religious] feeling to anyone who is entirely without
it . . . In my view, it is the most important function
of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it
alive in those who are receptive to it.
(Calaprice, ibid., 207 / Cosmic Religion, 1931, 48-49)
In what way would an atheist think Einstein would say
such people are "deficient"? He denies that a personal
God put this knowledge in people, yet on the other hand
he clearly assumes it is innate, normal, and self-
evident. How can he do that?
Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of
science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in
the laws of the universe -- a spirit vastly superior
to that of man . . . In this way the pursuit of
science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort
. . .
(Calaprice, ibid., 211-212 / To student Phyllis Right,
who asked if scientists pray, January 24, 1936.
Einstein Archive 42-601, 52-337)
Science without religion is lame, religion without
science is blind.
(Calaprice, ibid., 213 / Ideas and Opinions, 46)
In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my
limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are
yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me
really angry is that they quote me for support of such
views.
(Calaprice, ibid., 214 / Said to German anti-Nazi
diplomat and author Hubertus zu Lowenstein around
1941. Quoted in his book, Towards the Further Shore,
London, 1968, 156)
Then there are the fanatical atheists whose
intolerance is the same as that of the religious
fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . .
They are creatures who can't hear the music of the
spheres.
(Calaprice, ibid., 214 / August 7, 1941. Einstein
Archive 54-297)
I have found no better expression than 'religious' for
confidence in the rational nature of reality, insofar
as it is accessible to human reason. Whenever this
feeling is absent, science degenerates into uninspired
empiricism.
(Calaprice, ibid., 216 / To Maurice Solovine, January
1, 1951. Einstein Archive 21-474; published in Letters
to Solovine, 119)
More at:
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ527.HTM
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
The terrorist mission of Jesus stated in the Christian bible:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not so send
peace, but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
- Matthew 10:34-36.
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| User: "Peacenik" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 05:01:45 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:YiEli2369IrEvu@XgaEf...
Albert Einstein's "Cosmic Religion"
I would argue that man is inherently
religious (anthropology easily bears this out), so that
the religious impulse must be stifled in an atheist. It
is already there.
Uh, no it's not. Children who grew up without being taught about god, grow
up with no god concept or no need to have a god-concept. There is no
god-shaped hole in the hearts of people unless one is placed there by
indoctrination.
How do I know? Because I speak from personal experience. I grew up in a
completely god-free environment, and have been an atheist all my life. I
have never felt the need for any kind of religious belief. Indeed, the first
time I ever hears about god, which my grandparents believed in, I thought it
was a ridiculous concept. To this day, the idea of a god existing remains an
uttely absurd concept.
.
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| User: "harmony" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
02 May 2005 09:06:14 PM |
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"Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4qca7$9q4$1@news.seed.net.tw...
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:YiEli2369IrEvu@XgaEf...
Albert Einstein's "Cosmic Religion"
I would argue that man is inherently
religious (anthropology easily bears this out), so that
the religious impulse must be stifled in an atheist. It
is already there.
Uh, no it's not. Children who grew up without being taught about god, grow
up with no god concept or no need to have a god-concept. There is no
god-shaped hole in the hearts of people unless one is placed there by
indoctrination.
How do I know? Because I speak from personal experience. I grew up in a
completely god-free environment, and have been an atheist all my life. I
have never felt the need for any kind of religious belief. Indeed, the
first
time I ever hears about god, which my grandparents believed in, I thought
it
was a ridiculous concept. To this day, the idea of a god existing remains
an
uttely absurd concept.
so, how do you take your oath as a witness in court? court can not record
your testimony or believe you unless you put your hand on bible. and what do
you do when at dinner meetings some guy wants to stand up to say grace? in
south,specially, you can't go to a football game without some guy thanking
the lord; they even pray for a win for the home team, and i feel sorry for
the visitors.
.
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| User: "Branson Hunter" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
02 May 2005 09:11:48 PM |
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On Mon, 2 May 2005 21:06:14 -0500, "harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
Uh, no it's not. Children who grew up without being taught about god, grow
up with no god concept or no need to have a god-concept. There is no
god-shaped hole in the hearts of people unless one is placed there by
indoctrination.
How do I know? Because I speak from personal experience. I grew up in a
completely god-free environment, and have been an atheist all my life. I
have never felt the need for any kind of religious belief. Indeed, the
first time I ever hears about god, which my grandparents believed in, I thought
it was a ridiculous concept. To this day, the idea of a god existing remains
an uttely absurd concept.
so, how do you take your oath as a witness in court? court can not record
your testimony or believe you unless you put your hand on bible.
All you have to do is *affirm* that the testimony you're about to give
is give is the truth. Or if asked if you swear to tell the truth, you
just *affirm*.
Branson
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
03 May 2005 03:46:21 AM |
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In article <j3nd711epol6djjbdhu9bmchci6f5jumhf@4ax.com>,
Available upon request posted:
On Mon, 2 May 2005 21:06:14 -0500, "harmony" <aka@hotmail.com> wrote:
Uh, no it's not. Children who grew up without being taught about god, grow
up with no god concept or no need to have a god-concept. There is no
god-shaped hole in the hearts of people unless one is placed there by
indoctrination.
How do I know? Because I speak from personal experience. I grew up in a
completely god-free environment, and have been an atheist all my life. I
have never felt the need for any kind of religious belief. Indeed, the
first time I ever hears about god, which my grandparents believed in, I
thought
it was a ridiculous concept. To this day, the idea of a god existing
remains
an uttely absurd concept.
so, how do you take your oath as a witness in court? court can not record
your testimony or believe you unless you put your hand on bible.
All you have to do is *affirm* that the testimony you're about to give
is give is the truth. Or if asked if you swear to tell the truth, you
just *affirm*.
Branson
That may work in some courts, not all.
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
.
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 04:29:16 PM |
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In article <d4qca7$9q4$1@news.seed.net.tw>,
"Chris M. Nelson aka Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> posted:
. . . I grew up in a completely god-free environment
You mean ". . . in a completely mention-of-god-free environment . . ."
. . . and have been an atheist all my life. I
have never felt the need for any kind of religious belief.
- "Chris M. Nelson aka Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com>
Yet, obviously, you have demonstrated your need to
discuss religious belief. You are participating in
religious discourse -- something that religious people do,
Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
atheism
n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
.
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 04:45:40 PM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote
: Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
: belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
: faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
:
: atheism
: n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
: Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
While it is true that some misguided dullards do use this sense of the word
to form their nonsensical descriptions of the atheistic position, atheists
using proper etymology use the following sense of the word to describe their
position:
atheism
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
WordNet 2.1 Copyright 2005 by Princeton University
a- prefix meaning "not," from Gk. a-, an- "not," from PIE base *ne "not"
theist 1662, from Gk. theos "god" (see Thea) + -ist. The original senses was
that later reserved to deist: "one who believes in a transcendant god but
denies revelation." Later in 18c. theist was contrasted with deist, as
allowing the possibility of revelation. Theism "belief in a deity" is
recorded from 1678; meaning "belief in one god" (as opposed to polytheism)
is recorded from 1711. Theistic is attested from 1780.
-ism suffix forming nouns of action, state, condition, doctrine, from
Fr. -isme, from L. -isma, from Gk. -isma, from stem of verbs in -izein.
--
Bear
And I know it’s my own damn fault.
.
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 05:27:39 PM |
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Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
atheism
n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
.
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 06:09:45 PM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote
: Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
: belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
: faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
:
: atheism
: n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
: Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
While it is true that some misguided dullards do use this sense of the word
to form their nonsensical descriptions of the atheistic position, atheists
using proper etymology use the following sense of the word to describe their
position:
atheism
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
WordNet 2.1, 2005 Princeton University
a- prefix meaning "not," from Gk. a-, an- "not," from PIE base *ne "not"
theist 1662, from Gk. theos "god" (see Thea) + -ist. The original senses was
that later reserved to deist: "one who believes in a transcendant god but
denies revelation." Later in 18c. theist was contrasted with deist, as
allowing the possibility of revelation. Theism "belief in a deity" is
recorded from 1678; meaning "belief in one god" (as opposed to polytheism)
is recorded from 1711. Theistic is attested from 1780.
-ism suffix forming nouns of action, state, condition, doctrine, from
Fr. -isme, from L. -isma, from Gk. -isma, from stem of verbs in -izein.
--
Bear
And I know it’s my own damn fault.
.
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 06:21:10 PM |
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Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
atheism
n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
.
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 06:41:19 PM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote
: Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
: belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
: faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
:
: atheism
: n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
: Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
While it is true that some misguided dullards do use this sense of the word
to form their nonsensical descriptions of the atheistic position, atheists
using proper etymology use the following sense of the word to describe their
position:
atheism
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
WordNet 2.1, 2005 Princeton University
a- prefix meaning "not," from Gk. a-, an- "not," from PIE base *ne "not"
theist 1662, from Gk. theos "god" (see Thea) + -ist. The original senses was
that later reserved to deist: "one who believes in a transcendant god but
denies revelation." Later in 18c. theist was contrasted with deist, as
allowing the possibility of revelation. Theism "belief in a deity" is
recorded from 1678; meaning "belief in one god" (as opposed to polytheism)
is recorded from 1711. Theistic is attested from 1780.
-ism suffix forming nouns of action, state, condition, doctrine, from
Fr. -isme, from L. -isma, from Gk. -isma, from stem of verbs in -izein.
--
Bear
And I know it’s my own damn fault.
.
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
29 Apr 2005 01:42:39 AM |
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In article <9dydnZPE2fA-6ezfRVn-iQ@comcast.com>,
"Bear" <bigbear1wh@native.web.net> posted:
Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:
: Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
: belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
: faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
:
: atheism
: n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
: Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
. . . true . . .
Indeed.
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
.
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
29 Apr 2005 01:51:50 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" wrote
While it is true that some misguided dullards do use this sense of the word
to form their nonsensical descriptions of the atheistic position, atheists
using proper etymology use the following sense of the word to describe their
position:
atheism
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
WordNet 2.1, 2005 Princeton University
a- prefix meaning "not," from Gk. a-, an- "not," from PIE base *ne "not"
theist 1662, from Gk. theos "god" (see Thea) + -ist. The original senses was
that later reserved to deist: "one who believes in a transcendant god but
denies revelation." Later in 18c. theist was contrasted with deist, as
allowing the possibility of revelation. Theism "belief in a deity" is
recorded from 1678; meaning "belief in one god" (as opposed to polytheism)
is recorded from 1711. Theistic is attested from 1780.
-ism suffix forming nouns of action, state, condition, doctrine, from
Fr. -isme, from L. -isma, from Gk. -isma, from stem of verbs in -izein.
: . . . true . . .
:
: Indeed.
--
Bear
And I know it’s my own damn fault.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 04:58:55 PM |
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Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
In article <d4qca7$9q4$1@news.seed.net.tw>,
"Chris M. Nelson aka Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> posted:
. . . I grew up in a completely god-free environment
You mean ". . . in a completely mention-of-god-free environment . .
.."
Yes, of course. If he meant it literally, then we would *all have grown
up in a god-free environment.
. . . and have been an atheist all my life. I
have never felt the need for any kind of religious belief.
- "Chris M. Nelson aka Peacenik" <cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com>
Yet, obviously, you have demonstrated your need to
discuss religious belief. You are participating in
religious discourse -- something that religious people do,
He's responding to you, of course. This is disingenuous.
Hey, Jai! How come when I go to your fan group, there's nothing there
except what *you've cross-posted? All the threads that have only one
post were written by you. All the other threads are threads like this
one, where folks haven't bothered to strip the cross-posts from the
headers. That's pretty freakin' sad.
Atheism is very much a religion based on doctrinal
belief. Atheism is a belief system. It requires the
faith in the doctrine that God does not exist.
No, it is merely the lack of faith in gods. Some of us, like me, also
assert there are no gods, in the sense the most people understand them.
I also assert there is no Santa Claus, in the sense that most people
understand him.
But I would not expect someone who believes in astrology and the
healing power of gems to be able to think clearly. Do you think that
Spinoza's god has any bearing on what you imagine gods to be?
Why would we need faith that there is no god? There is no evidence that
there are any, outside of human skulls.
atheism
n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God . . .
Source - WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
Kermit
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| User: "Brian E. Clark" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
29 Apr 2005 06:56:57 PM |
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In article <YIiDA6486asOJa@GroUi>, Dr. Jai Maharaj said...
Yet, obviously, you have demonstrated your need to
discuss religious belief. You are participating in
religious discourse -- something that religious people do,
Religious people also sneeze, cough and scratch their heads when
an itch makes itself known. So do atheists. So what? Not all
humans are Greeks!
Here's a correctly formed syllogism:
a) All Greeks are human.
b) Socrates is a Greek.
c) Therefore, Socrates is human.
You, by contrast, are relying on an incorrect form that runs
like this:
a) All Greeks are human.
b) Thomas Jefferson is a human.
c) Therefore, Thomas Jefferson is Greek.
See the problem? Now compare the incorrect syllogism to your
statement above, which relies on the following logic:
a) Religious people discuss religious belief.
b) Atheists discuss religious belief.
c) Therefore, atheists are religious people.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
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| User: "Dr. Jai Maharaj" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
29 Apr 2005 07:06:12 PM |
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In article <MPG.1cdc93d2d49b4ba39899df@news.comcast.giganews.com>,
Brian E. Clark <reply@newsgroup.only.please> posted:
Here's a correctly formed syllogism: . . .
Aristotelian syllogism is only deductive. It is inconsistent
with time-tested, inductive-deductive reasoning process,
such as the Vedic-Hindu: statement-reason-example-
application-conclusion.
Jai Maharaj
http://www.mantra.com/jai
Om Shanti
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 06:21:59 AM |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:01:45 +0800, "Peacenik"
<cnelsonpublic@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:YiEli2369IrEvu@XgaEf...
Albert Einstein's "Cosmic Religion"
I would argue that man is inherently
religious (anthropology easily bears this out), so that
the religious impulse must be stifled in an atheist. It
is already there.
Uh, no it's not. Children who grew up without being taught about god, grow
up with no god concept or no need to have a god-concept. There is no
god-shaped hole in the hearts of people unless one is placed there by
indoctrination.
Exactly. And the sad thing is that sociopathic theists refuse to grasp
this. Watch out for him to try and "prove" you're not telling the
truth using outright falsehoods.
How do I know? Because I speak from personal experience. I grew up in a
completely god-free environment, and have been an atheist all my life. I
have never felt the need for any kind of religious belief. Indeed, the first
time I ever hears about god, which my grandparents believed in, I thought it
was a ridiculous concept. To this day, the idea of a god existing remains an
uttely absurd concept.
Same with me. On my father's side there were some luke-warm believers
but my grandfather wasn't a believer. On my mother's side it went back
further than that.
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were theists.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 09:40:34 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were theists.
How old were you at the time?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 09:48:59 AM |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:40:34 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 10:31:46 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<trimming alt.fan.jai-maharaj and misc.writing.screenplays>
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some theist
on TV, or what?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Marvin" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 12:56:07 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:f70271hlql71nfsv4hmpf5ut8tldd936q3@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
alt.atheism
<trimming alt.fan.jai-maharaj and misc.writing.screenplays>
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were
theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some
theist
on TV, or what?
--
Elroy Willis
If he's anything like my grandson, it was when he was
ostracized and threatened by his Christian classmates. Of
course, these were children, and it takes a while to learn
tolerance and empathy. I don't claim the attack was because
they were Christians, rather it was because they were children
and they discovered something they could employ in the eternal
I'm-better-than-you conflict. A group of atheist children who
discovered a believer in their group would probably behave in
the same way.
--
Marvin
To reply, burn off fog.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 01:26:35 PM |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:56:07 -0500, "Marvin" <marvin2@FOGstarband.net>
wrote:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:f70271hlql71nfsv4hmpf5ut8tldd936q3@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
alt.atheism
<trimming alt.fan.jai-maharaj and misc.writing.screenplays>
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were
theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some
theist
on TV, or what?
--
Elroy Willis
If he's anything like my grandson, it was when he was
ostracized and threatened by his Christian classmates. Of
course, these were children, and it takes a while to learn
tolerance and empathy. I don't claim the attack was because
they were Christians, rather it was because they were children
and they discovered something they could employ in the eternal
I'm-better-than-you conflict. A group of atheist children who
discovered a believer in their group would probably behave in
the same way.
It was a schoolteacher. Who called me "atheist" in front of the other
children and set them on me. Which was unforgivable.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 07:48:14 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Marvin <marvin2@FOGstarband.net> wrote:
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were
theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some
theist on TV, or what?
If he's anything like my grandson, it was when he was
ostracized and threatened by his Christian classmates. Of
course, these were children, and it takes a while to learn
tolerance and empathy. I don't claim the attack was because
they were Christians, rather it was because they were children
and they discovered something they could employ in the eternal
I'm-better-than-you conflict. A group of atheist children who
discovered a believer in their group would probably behave in
the same way.
It was a schoolteacher. Who called me "atheist" in front of the other
children and set them on me. Which was unforgivable.
Set them as in "sicked them" on you? What exactly happened?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 07:56:17 PM |
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On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:48:14 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Marvin <marvin2@FOGstarband.net> wrote:
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were
theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some
theist on TV, or what?
If he's anything like my grandson, it was when he was
ostracized and threatened by his Christian classmates. Of
course, these were children, and it takes a while to learn
tolerance and empathy. I don't claim the attack was because
they were Christians, rather it was because they were children
and they discovered something they could employ in the eternal
I'm-better-than-you conflict. A group of atheist children who
discovered a believer in their group would probably behave in
the same way.
It was a schoolteacher. Who called me "atheist" in front of the other
children and set them on me. Which was unforgivable.
Set them as in "sicked them" on you? What exactly happened?
She said some rude things in front of the other children, which they
repeated.
It lasted until the next school year when we had a different teacher.
I learned later that I had had caused a major shock to her faith.
Served her rigght.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 01:25:32 PM |
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:31:46 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<trimming alt.fan.jai-maharaj and misc.writing.screenplays>
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some theist
on TV, or what?
At school. Remember, this was England not America.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 07:49:39 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some theist
on TV, or what?
At school. Remember, this was England not America.
The majority of your classmates were already indoctrinated into
Christianity?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 08:00:47 PM |
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On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:49:39 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
It came as a surprise to me when I discovered there were theists.
How old were you at the time?
About 8.
Where were you at the time? In school, or did you see some theist
on TV, or what?
At school. Remember, this was England not America.
The majority of your classmates were already indoctrinated into
Christianity?
I had never thought about it until then. Turned out some were.
.
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| User: "Darwin" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 12:24:42 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:YiEli2369IrEvu@XgaEf...
Albert Einstein's "Cosmic Religion"
Philosophically, God's existence is something that is
reasoned to (as with all other propositions whatever, as
well). In a larger epistemology, including religious
faith, it is not. I would argue that man is inherently
religious (anthropology easily bears this out), so that
the religious impulse must be stifled in an atheist. It
is already there.
Define "religious." I would argue that man is easily drawn
into superstitions due to his ignorance about the nature
of reality. I don't think this is the same thing as being religious.
If even rigorous philosophical and scientific minds like
David Hume and Einstein look at the universe and
immediately sees some sort of Intelligence behind it
(though not the Christian God), surely there is something
to even Paul's assertion of the "plainness" of God's
existence, in Romans 1. Hume even stated that "no
rational enquirer can, after serious reflection, suspend
his belief a moment with regard to the primary principles
of genuine Theism and Religion . . ."
If a rational enquirer can't suspend his religious belief for
even a moment, then he is not a very rigorous philosopher.
Einstein made a
number of such statements:
My comprehension of God comes from the deeply felt
conviction of a superior intelligence that reveals
itself in the knowable world. In common terms, one can
describe it as 'pantheistic' (Spinoza).
(Answer to the question, "What is your understanding
of God?" Kaizo, 5, no. 2, 1923, 197. in Alice
Calaprice, editor, The Expanded Quotable Einstein,
Princeton Univ. Press, 2000, 203)
Now, I ask atheists: whence comes Einstein's "deeply felt
conviction"? Is it a philosophical reason or the end
result of a syllogism? He simply has it. It is an
intuitive or instinctive feeling or "knowledge" or "sense
of wonder at the incredible, mind-boggling marvels of the
universe" in those who have it. Atheists don't possess
this intuition, but my point is that it is not utterly
implausible or unable to be held by even the most
rigorous, "non-dogmatic" intellects, such as Einstein and
Hume. And the atheist has to account for that fact
somehow, it seems to me.
OK. David Hume was raised in a Christian society and was
probably raised as a Christian. Einstein was raised as a Jew
in a Jewish community. Thus, both men were taught to
believe in God from their childhoods. As adults, they were
unable or unwilling to completely abandon those deeply
ingrained beliefs. So Einstein's "deeply felt conviction" was
NOT intuitive or instinctive, it was learned.
My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the
infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the
little that we can comprehend about the knowable
world. That deeply emotional conviction of the
presence of a superior reasoning power, which is
revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my
idea of God.
(Calaprice, ibid., 204 / To a banker in Colorado,
1927. Einstein Archive 48-380; also quoted in Dukas
and Hoffmann, Albert Einstein, the Human Side, 66, and
in the New York Times obituary, April 19, 1955)
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the
harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who
concerns himself with the fate and actions of human
beings.
(Calaprice, ibid., 204 / Telegram to a Jewish
nespaper, 1929. Einstein Archive 33-272)
What do atheists think Einstein meant here when he used
the word "believe"? Do they think he had an elaborate
argument that ended in his conclusion: "I believe in
Spinoza's God"?
As a Jewish man, Einstein wanted God to be real, but, in
light of his scientific knowledge, he was unable to buy into
Jewish dogma. So he adopted a more ambiguous God
concept that wouldn't clash with his knowledge of reality.
......remainder of post snipped for brevity and to avoid redundancy.....
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| User: "Andrsib" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
28 Apr 2005 01:55:48 AM |
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"Dr. Jai Maharaj" <usenet@mantra.com> wrote in message
news:YiEli2369IrEvu@XgaEf...
Albert Einstein's "Cosmic Religion"
<snip>
What do atheists think Einstein meant here when he used
the word "believe"? Do they think he had an elaborate
argument that ended in his conclusion: "I believe in
Spinoza's God"?
'Spinoza's God' is the nature itself, its laws, and the human capability to
understand them. Einstein did have an 'elaborate argument', which he
expressed in very many different works. Examples:
"The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of
religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God. It is the
aim of science to establish general rules which determine the reciprocal
connection of objects and events in time and space. For these rules, or laws
of nature, absolutely general validity is required-not proven. It is mainly
a program, and faith in the possibility of its accomplishment in principle
is only founded on partial successes. But hardly anyone could be found who
would deny these partial successes and ascribe them to human self-deception.
The fact that on the basis of such laws we are able to predict the temporal
behavior of phenomena in certain domains with great precision and certainty
is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the modern man, even though he
may have grasped very little of the contents of those laws. He need only
consider that planetary courses within the solar system may be calculated in
advance with great exactitude on the basis of a limited number of simple
laws. In a similar way, though not with the same precision, it is possible
to calculate in advance the mode of operation of an electric motor, a
transmission system, or of a wireless apparatus, even when dealing with a
novel development."
-- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A 1934 Symposium
published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their
Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941; from
Einstein's Out of My Later Years, Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press,
1970, pp. 26-29.
"The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical
comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort
from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of
awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not
lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image-a
personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as
individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but
only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a
purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere."
-- Albert Einstein, letter to a Rabbi in Chicago; from Albert Einstein the
Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton University
Press, 1981, pp. 69-70.
In other words, Einstein's belief is based on the available evidence -
scientific progress - out of which he draws the conclusion that more laws of
nature are yet to be discovered.
Here are some more Einstein quotes from
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_einstein.html :
"Why do you write to me 'God should punish the English'? I have no close
connection to either one or the other. I see only with deep regret that God
punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which
only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His
nonexistence could excuse Him."
-- Albert Einstein, letter to Edgar Meyer, a Swiss colleague, January 2,
1915
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest
in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me.
From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been
an atheist. Your counter-arguments seem to me very correct and could hardly
be better formulated. It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical
concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere-childish analogies.
We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this
world as far-as we can grasp it. And that is all."
-- Albert Einstein, to Guy H. Raner Jr., July 2, 1945, responding to a rumor
that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.: This is a somewhat new kind of
religion."
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter to Hans Muehsam, March 30, 1954; Einstein
Archive 38-434
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a
vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the
betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver,
especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."
-- Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein
Archive 59-215
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a
childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading
spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful
act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in
youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our
intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."
-- Albert Einstein, to Guy H. Raner Jr., September 28, 1949
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 'COSMIC RELIGION'" |
27 Apr 2005 10:58:39 PM |
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(Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote in alt.atheism
I would argue that man is inherently religious (anthropology easily
bears this out), so that the religious impulse must be stifled in an
atheist.
If a child isn't taught about any gods or religions, when do you
suppose they would suddenly start worshipping some god or practicing
some religion that they just make up on their own?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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