| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Martin Willett" |
| Date: |
11 Feb 2004 09:17:52 AM |
| Object: |
Alien proof |
A spaceship glides into view: majestic, unmistakable, amazing
technology barely distinguishable from magic.
The aliens prove their superior intelligence to the world:-
1] They demonstrate a proof of the four colour theorem using a 5
dimensional scale model of the White House, in red, white, octarine
and hoolovoo.
2] They change Schrödinger's cat's litter tray without opening the
box.
3] They demonstrate an understanding of one of the plots from The
Rockford Files.
4] They demonstrate a new economic system in which poverty is
eliminated, nobody is or feels exploited, wealth is distributed
equally, productivity is enhanced, pollution reduced, job satisfaction
improved, leisure time qualitatively enhanced, everybody gets an extra
day off per week and an extra hour a night in bed.
5] Finally, this is the killer, they demonstrate positive proof to the
satisfaction of everybody that there is no god.
It's fantasy isn't it? How could you ever manage to achieve point 5?
There is, surely, no possible scenario in which the religious would
all hold their hands up and admit "***** me, we were wrong!"
I can even imagine the odd soul floating up after a thousand years of
torment from a lake of burning brimstone in the Hell of some other god
and saying "you'd better watch out when (splutter, retch) Jesus hears
about this!"
The idea that faith is a good thing (absurd if you contemplate it for
one moment with the safety catch of your brain turned off) coupled
with whatever nonsense they want to associate with it is an unbeatable
combination. Being stupid, ignorant and irrational become virtues in
an instant. Black is white and they believe they are better people for
believing it. They believe their god invented morality and only
believers in their god can be moral and everything that is or could
ever be good is the direct responsibility of their god, and everything
that is or ever could be bad derives from the act of rejecting that
god.
Is it any wonder that an idea like that gets passed on? It is immune
from logic and disproof and they regard spreading this poisonous
rationality killing idea as the highest calling a human being can
have, applauding each other for how far they are prepared to go to do
it, and reserving the highest praise for those people who put
spreading that reason-poison above their own life.
And they would like to make it immune from ridicule, humour and
sarcasm too. That is something we must be prepared to fight.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
11 Feb 2004 02:01:15 PM |
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"Martin Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote
The idea that faith is a good thing (absurd if you
contemplate it for one moment with the safety
catch of your brain turned off) coupled with
whatever nonsense they want to associate with
it is an unbeatable combination. Being stupid,
ignorant and irrational become virtues in an instant.
Black is white and they believe they are better
people for believing it.
I agree with your observations, I simply don't agree that
a "Faith" must inescapably lead to the disconnect with
reality.
Please keep in mind, when these religions were still fairly
new, most of these "Black is white" demands weren't being
made. As far as anyone could see, the sun did revolve
around the earth. There was no such thing as "DNA" or
"Evolution," and the explainations for our origins that they
did have were no more or less of a fit to their understanding
of the natural world than anything else.
It's only now, with the hindsight granted by our modern science,
when anyone is asked to disconnect their brains from reality in
order to cling to ancient superstitions.
The ancients themselves never made any such requests to the
people, and certainly nobody ever asked them to ignore reality.
Not as far as the natural world goes.
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
11 Feb 2004 06:27:26 PM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Martin Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote
The idea that faith is a good thing (absurd if you
contemplate it for one moment with the safety
catch of your brain turned off) coupled with
whatever nonsense they want to associate with
it is an unbeatable combination. Being stupid,
ignorant and irrational become virtues in an instant.
Black is white and they believe they are better
people for believing it.
I agree with your observations, I simply don't agree that
a "Faith" must inescapably lead to the disconnect with
reality.
Please keep in mind, when these religions were still fairly
new, most of these "Black is white" demands weren't being
made. As far as anyone could see, the sun did revolve
around the earth. There was no such thing as "DNA" or
"Evolution," and the explainations for our origins that they
did have were no more or less of a fit to their understanding
of the natural world than anything else.
It's only now, with the hindsight granted by our modern science,
when anyone is asked to disconnect their brains from reality in
order to cling to ancient superstitions.
The ancients themselves never made any such requests to the
people, and certainly nobody ever asked them to ignore reality.
Not as far as the natural world goes.
A faith means you must accept your preordained truth as true no matter
what happens. Of course it does not have to be absurd, you could have
faith in what happens to be true. Logically whether you have faith in
something or not has no bearing either way on whether or not it is
true, just as calling heads has no effect on the tossing of coin. It
does not matter how strongly you or anybody else believes in something
reality is unaffected by your beliefs.
Most scientists these days prefer to accept as true what is shown to
be true, indeed to a scientist faith is not a virtue, it is gross
professional misconduct.
Never did the prophets hear a tale from their god that told them
something about the nature of the universe and man's place in it that
they did not already believe. The Hebrew prophets told their people
the sky was a dome over their heads, that God thought marriage was a
good idea, property was good, a subservient position for women was
good and their people were the best and the others could all be killed
utterly without mercy whenever the time was opportune. The prophets
didn't say much about condoms or gay priests or Pluto or AIDS or
nuclear power or that it might be a smart move if his chosen people
stayed clear of central Europe in the middle part of the twentieth
century (a bit of a oversight, don't you think?). All in all their
predictions were about as impressive as those of a newspaper
astrologer, convincing only those who are desperately wanting to be
convinced.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
11 Feb 2004 08:03:00 PM |
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"Martin Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote
A faith means you must accept your preordained truth as
true no matter what happens. Of course it does not have
to be absurd, you could have faith in what happens to be
true.
It gets even more complicated. Well, at least if you turn the
clock back a few thousand years.
The requirements, whatever they were, were placed on both
the people and the "Faith."
In middle eastern cultural traditions (and we are speaking of
the middle east 2000 years ago), an "Expert" an "Authority"
is an expert/authority on *Everything*.
"I don't know" is the *Wrong* answer to any question. It
immediately disproves your authority. If you expect people
to believe you when you tell them you know what God wants
them to do, then you had better be prepared to answer their
questions concerning lightening if they ask you. If you don't,
you're not an authority, and they now dismiss your every word.
In that sense, looking at the origins here, the "black is white"
leaps of "Faith" requirements were not placed on the people
by the religion, but on the religion by the people. If a religious
authority was not willing to spew ignorant opinions on
subjects he knew nothing about -- in response to direct
questions -- he was a fraud.
Most scientists these days prefer to accept as true what is
shown to be true, indeed to a scientist faith is not a virtue,
it is gross professional misconduct.
In the context of science, of course, you deal only with facts
and explainations that fit those facts. However, this does
not exclude matters of faith OUTSIDE the context of science.
Never did the prophets hear a tale from their god that told
them something about the nature of the universe and man's
place in it that they did not already believe.
That was the easiest way around a sticky situation. When you
are required to have a answer for everything, you have no
choice (heck, no time) but to stick with the answers you know...
the answers already in circulation... the answers you would
have a cultural awareness of even if they lay outside your
interest or study.
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| User: "roverjack" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
11 Feb 2004 08:20:08 PM |
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"Martin Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:c0dh33$15nbaa$1@ID-224148.news.uni-berlin.de...
A spaceship glides into view: majestic, unmistakable, amazing
technology barely distinguishable from magic.
The aliens prove their superior intelligence to the world:-
1] They demonstrate a proof of the four colour theorem using a 5
dimensional scale model of the White House, in red, white, octarine
and hoolovoo.
2] They change Schrödinger's cat's litter tray without opening the
box.
3] They demonstrate an understanding of one of the plots from The
Rockford Files.
4] They demonstrate a new economic system in which poverty is
eliminated, nobody is or feels exploited, wealth is distributed
equally, productivity is enhanced, pollution reduced, job satisfaction
improved, leisure time qualitatively enhanced, everybody gets an extra
day off per week and an extra hour a night in bed.
5] Finally, this is the killer, they demonstrate positive proof to the
satisfaction of everybody that there is no god.
This is a silly statement simply because if it was PROOF POSITIVE to the
satisfaction of EVERYBODY, no one would or could dispute it. Also, in a
universe such as that in which we find ourselves, it is impossible to prove
that anything does NOT exist, as opposed to proving, at least to a high
degree of certainty, that something DOES exist, i.e. by producing such a
specimen as you were trying to prove the existence of.
It's fantasy isn't it? How could you ever manage to achieve point 5?
There is, surely, no possible scenario in which the religious would
all hold their hands up and admit "***** me, we were wrong!"
I can even imagine the odd soul floating up after a thousand years of
torment from a lake of burning brimstone in the Hell of some other god
and saying "you'd better watch out when (splutter, retch) Jesus hears
about this!"
The idea that faith is a good thing (absurd if you contemplate it for
one moment with the safety catch of your brain turned off) coupled
with whatever nonsense they want to associate with it is an unbeatable
combination. Being stupid, ignorant and irrational become virtues in
an instant. Black is white and they believe they are better people for
believing it. They believe their god invented morality and only
believers in their god can be moral and everything that is or could
ever be good is the direct responsibility of their god, and everything
that is or ever could be bad derives from the act of rejecting that
god.
Is it any wonder that an idea like that gets passed on? It is immune
from logic and disproof and they regard spreading this poisonous
rationality killing idea as the highest calling a human being can
have, applauding each other for how far they are prepared to go to do
it, and reserving the highest praise for those people who put
spreading that reason-poison above their own life.
And they would like to make it immune from ridicule, humour and
sarcasm too. That is something we must be prepared to fight.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
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| User: "Mark and Bev Tindall" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
12 Feb 2004 12:23:08 AM |
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"roverjack" wrote:
This is a silly statement simply because if it was PROOF POSITIVE to the
satisfaction of EVERYBODY, no one would .... dispute it.
All the facts supporting evolution are available and understandable and
positively proved yet
fundamentalist Christians still dispute it and put forward the
pseudo-science of creationism.
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| User: "Arnoud Hobbel" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
12 Feb 2004 07:26:52 AM |
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:20:08 -0800, roverjack wrote:
Also, in a
universe such as that in which we find ourselves, it is impossible to prove
that anything does NOT exist,
This is actually a matter of scale. If I were to present you with a box
and asked you to prove there weren't any red balls inside of it, just a
peek would suffice to prove or disprove my statement. If I were to say
that there are no unicorns on the earth, you couldn't do that, because of
timeconstraints. However there is no reason to suppose there is some
technology which would allow us to view the earth in one single glance
as we do a small box. Mind you, the fourcolourtheorem is essentially a
negative proof: No map exists which requires 5 or more colours.
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| User: "Brenda Nelson" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
11 Feb 2004 04:36:14 PM |
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"Martin Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<c0dh33$15nbaa$1@ID-224148.news.uni-berlin.de>...
<Snip for bandwidth>
The idea that faith is a good thing (absurd if you contemplate it for
one moment with the safety catch of your brain turned off) coupled
with whatever nonsense they want to associate with it is an unbeatable
combination. Being stupid, ignorant and irrational become virtues in
an instant. Black is white and they believe they are better people for
believing it. They believe their god invented morality and only
believers in their god can be moral and everything that is or could
ever be good is the direct responsibility of their god, and everything
that is or ever could be bad derives from the act of rejecting that
god.
This paragraph absolutely nails it, Martin (no pun intended). I've
been saying for years that we must keep hammering into their pointy
little heads the fact that FAITH IS NOT A VIRTUE. I tell people that
almost every day, as I'm surrounded by people who constantly insist,
about any- and everything, that "Ya just gotta have faith!" No, you
don't. Faith is a mental virus.
Is it any wonder that an idea like that gets passed on?
It's a real *infective* mental virus.
It is immune
from logic and disproof and they regard spreading this poisonous
rationality killing idea as the highest calling a human being can
have, applauding each other for how far they are prepared to go to do
it, and reserving the highest praise for those people who put
spreading that reason-poison above their own life.
Which is why folks like us have to take every opportunity to point out
that faith is bad and having it is a character flaw.
And they would like to make it immune from ridicule, humour and
sarcasm too. That is something we must be prepared to fight.
I'm sending George Carlin a love letter this very day. ;->
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
Chief Wrangler and Ramrod Emeritus
(and Professor of Feline Thermometrics)
EAC Equine Transportation Command/Carne Seca Division
in the Prefecture of Baja, Arizona
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
11 Feb 2004 11:36:53 AM |
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In article <c0dh33$15nbaa$1@ID-224148.news.uni-berlin.de>,=20
ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com says...
A spaceship glides into view: majestic, unmistakable, amazing
technology barely distinguishable from magic.
=20
The aliens prove their superior intelligence to the world:-
=20
1] They demonstrate a proof of the four colour theorem using a 5
dimensional scale model of the White House, in red, white, octarine
and hoolovoo.
=20
That might impress me.
2] They change Schr=F6dinger's cat's litter tray without opening the
box.
=20
That would for sure..
3] They demonstrate an understanding of one of the plots from The
Rockford Files.
Ummm,err you don't?? Don't watch the Sopranos or The Shield, you might=20
kill yourself. I loved the Rockford files back when it was first on.
=20
4] They demonstrate a new economic system in which poverty is
eliminated, nobody is or feels exploited, wealth is distributed
equally, productivity is enhanced, pollution reduced, job satisfaction
improved, leisure time qualitatively enhanced, everybody gets an extra
day off per week and an extra hour a night in bed.
Don't see this one coming. Sounds like Star Trek.=20
=20
5] Finally, this is the killer, they demonstrate positive proof to the
satisfaction of everybody that there is no god.
Hmmm, this one would upset a bunch of them where I work, sounds like it=20
would be an interesting day when they saw this.
=20
=20
It's fantasy isn't it? How could you ever manage to achieve point 5?
There is, surely, no possible scenario in which the religious would
all hold their hands up and admit "***** me, we were wrong!"
I think some would have to be locked up, their "fear of god" is the only=20
thing keeping them from going totally nuts, and thinking about shooting=20
people.=20
=20
I can even imagine the odd soul floating up after a thousand years of
torment from a lake of burning brimstone in the Hell of some other god
and saying "you'd better watch out when (splutter, retch) Jesus hears
about this!"
=20
The idea that faith is a good thing (absurd if you contemplate it for
one moment with the safety catch of your brain turned off) coupled
with whatever nonsense they want to associate with it is an unbeatable
combination. Being stupid, ignorant and irrational become virtues in
an instant. Black is white and they believe they are better people for
believing it. They believe their god invented morality and only
believers in their god can be moral and everything that is or could
ever be good is the direct responsibility of their god, and everything
that is or ever could be bad derives from the act of rejecting that
god.
It's what they think, the ones with half a brain left might be able to=20
make the adjustment, the rest would have to be treated.
=20
Is it any wonder that an idea like that gets passed on? It is immune
from logic and disproof and they regard spreading this poisonous
rationality killing idea as the highest calling a human being can
have, applauding each other for how far they are prepared to go to do
it, and reserving the highest praise for those people who put
spreading that reason-poison above their own life.
Yep, they are a gullible bunch of weak minded fools.
=20
And they would like to make it immune from ridicule, humour and
sarcasm too. That is something we must be prepared to fight.
=20
I hope you aren't right on this one.
BDK
=20
=20
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
15 Feb 2004 08:55:49 PM |
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Martin Willett wrote:
A spaceship glides into view: majestic, unmistakable, amazing
technology barely distinguishable from magic.
God exists.
That statement is not falsifiable. There is no evidence that could, in
principle, conclusively show that statement to be false. Therefore, it
is useless to even discuss its truthfulness, because examination of
evidence cannot influence the outcome.
If you chose to believe in God, fine. If you don't believe in God,
don't expect to persuade the believers with logic and evidence. The
best you can hope for is to convince them that you deserve to be treated
with respect, despite your lack of belief. Even that is hard to do.
MarkA
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
15 Feb 2004 11:16:45 PM |
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"MarkA" <nobiz@ofyours.com> wrote
God exists.
That statement is not falsifiable.
The statement is also meaningless. "God" is entirely
undefined, or, more accurately, left for each & every
individual to define in their own unique manner.
"God, as described in the bible, exists."
Now that statement *Is* falsifiable. We have places,
events and many even claim to be able to extrapolate
solid dates... all of which can be scrutinized.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
16 Feb 2004 06:27:14 AM |
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:16:45 +0000, JTEM wrote:
"MarkA" <nobiz@ofyours.com> wrote
God exists.
That statement is not falsifiable.
The statement is also meaningless. "God" is entirely undefined, or, more
accurately, left for each & every individual to define in their own unique
manner.
"God, as described in the bible, exists."
Now that statement *Is* falsifiable. We have places, events and many even
claim to be able to extrapolate solid dates... all of which can be
scrutinized.
The claims made in the bible may be falsifiable, but the existence of god
isn't.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
16 Feb 2004 09:57:56 PM |
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"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote
"God, as described in the bible, exists."
Now that statement *Is* falsifiable. We have places,
events and many even claim to be able to extrapolate
solid dates... all of which can be scrutinized.
The claims made in the bible may be falsifiable, but the
existence of god isn't.
That's because "The God of the bible" *Is* defined & described,
giving us a basis for making a determination, while this generic
"god" you speak of is totally undefined.
Could you imagine trying to "Prove," one way or the other, the
existence of a creature when nobody is capable of defining &
describing it for?
Where do you look? How would you know if you've seen it, or
haven't seen it?
It can't be done. Not because "Existence" is a question that
boggles the mind, but because nobody has explained to you
(except in the most useless, generic terms) what it is that's
supposed to exist.
Disproving "God," when reasonably defined & described (such
as "the God of the bible") is not a difficult proposition. Not at
all. Nailing down a definition from a theist though, that *Is*
difficult.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
15 Feb 2004 11:00:57 PM |
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:55:49 GMT, MarkA <nobiz@ofyours.com> wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
A spaceship glides into view: majestic, unmistakable, amazing
technology barely distinguishable from magic.
God exists.
That statement is not falsifiable. There is no evidence that could, in
principle, conclusively show that statement to be false. Therefore, it
is useless to even discuss its truthfulness, because examination of
evidence cannot influence the outcome.
Then let the idiots who rub our faces in it, either put up or shut up.
If you chose to believe in God, fine. If you don't believe in God,
don't expect to persuade the believers with logic and evidence. The
best you can hope for is to convince them that you deserve to be treated
with respect, despite your lack of belief. Even that is hard to do.
Sigh. NOBODY WOULD GIVE A FLYING ***** ABOUT WHAT THEISTS BELIEVE IF
THEY KEPT IT TO THEMSELVES.
MarkA
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
16 Feb 2004 02:01:28 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:55:49 GMT, MarkA <nobiz@ofyours.com> wrote:
If you chose to believe in God, fine. If you don't believe in God,
don't expect to persuade the believers with logic and evidence.
The
best you can hope for is to convince them that you deserve to be
treated with respect, despite your lack of belief. Even that is
hard to do.
Sigh. NOBODY WOULD GIVE A FLYING ***** ABOUT WHAT THEISTS BELIEVE IF
THEY KEPT IT TO THEMSELVES.
Quite right. I don't care about the idiots who believe in astrology,
until they start using it to discriminate in job interviews. I don't
care whether people in God until they start saying that only believers
are moral and all unbelievers are evil sinners who cannot be trusted,
that's when I take notice.
Private religion is private, I'll debate it with people who want to
debate but I'll leave them alone if that's what they want. Public
religion is something else. If people bring God and prayers into
public events then I'll tackle them over it. Personal irrational
beliefs should not be part of public discussions and public policy
making. Religion should not be seen as the basis of morality just
because the religious would like you think that they invented the
concept and hold the patent.
Democracy is the greatest political system there is. Theocracy, any
form of rule by dogma and the guardians of the orthodoxy, is The
Worst.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "W.Syme" |
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| Title: Re: Alien proof |
15 Feb 2004 11:18:06 PM |
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:00:57 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
Sigh. NOBODY WOULD GIVE A FLYING ***** ABOUT WHAT THEISTS BELIEVE IF
THEY KEPT IT TO THEMSELVES.
Quite.
In England, there's a delightful sect, called the Aetherians. They
pray to aliens regularly.
I couldn't care less. Please, let the good people of the Aetheirus
society to whatever they can think of.
Only when they start indoctrinating my kids, infiltrating my justice
system and harassing me on the street that I take up arms.
But then again, the Aetherians don't do all that. Only xtians do.
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