| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jenreth" |
| Date: |
08 Sep 2003 10:44:07 AM |
| Object: |
Ambiguous Science |
It is well known that the special theory of relativity owes its
existence to the fact that there is an upper limit to velocities
of motion and signalling in nature, viz. the velocity of light.
This fact has also very important consequences for the subject of
cosmology, since it makes it impossible to investigate vast
spaces without also contemplating enormous lengths of time. In
particular, any knowledge that we may possess about very distant
objects must be due to processes (signals) originating on those
objects a very long time ago. Although the very definitions of
distances and times become ambiguous in this context it is clear
that the great intervals occurring raise new questions. If (as is
widely held to be true) the Universe is in a state of evolution,
then light from distant parts of space must also convey
information about the early history of the Universe. If, on the
other hand, there is no such evolution, then the light must
contain information about its absence. Therefore the entire
question of the origin and the evolution of the Universe becomes
part of the general cosmological problem. In particular, the
nature of the very beginning (if there was one) or,
alternatively, the origin of all matter and radiation has formed
a specially controversial subject generally termed the problem of
"creation".
In this context, too, we encounter the habit of the human mind to
imagine that complexity is only ephemeral, that the further we
dip into the past the simpler the state we shall find. How far
this process can be continued is a question to which no agreed
answer is in sight. What type of "last answer" is found most
satisfactory depends on individual taste. Hence here less sure
guidance is given than elsewhere in science by how satisfying or
otherwise a theory is. Broadly speaking three types of answer as
to the nature of the "beginning" have been given, and opinions
differ widely as to the relative merits of these:
(i) The "beginning" is a singular point on the border of the
realm of physical science. Any question which refers to
antecedents of the beginning or its nature can no longer be
answered by physics, and is not a proper question for it.
(ii) The "beginning" was a particularly simple state, the
simplest, most harmonious and most permanent we can imagine. It
contained within itself, though, the seeds of growth and
evolution, which at some indefinite moment started off a chain of
complicated processes which by now have changed this to our
present Universe.
(iii) There was no "beginning". The Universe on the large scale
is either unchanging or possibly going through cyclical changes,
but is of infinite age.
A cosmological theory must at least lead up to this, the problem
of "creation", and opinions differ as to what constitutes a
satisfactory answer which is, I don't want to be punched in the
face by God if you ***** him off.
-=-
This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
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| User: "Fred J. McCall" |
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| Title: Re: Ambiguous Science |
12 Sep 2003 10:32:31 PM |
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(Jenreth) wrote:
:It is well known that the special theory of relativity owes its
:existence to the fact that there is an upper limit to velocities
:of motion and signalling in nature, viz. the velocity of light.
If this is your level of understanding (i.e., incorrect), no need to
bother with the rest.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| User: "ZZBunker" |
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| Title: Re: Ambiguous Science |
13 Sep 2003 02:26:45 PM |
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Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9s35mvcq3usv2s268uqag03ftvv983h7ei@4ax.com>...
Anonymous-Remailer@See.Comment.Header (Jenreth) wrote:
:It is well known that the special theory of relativity owes its
:existence to the fact that there is an upper limit to velocities
:of motion and signalling in nature, viz. the velocity of light.
If this is your level of understanding (i.e., incorrect), no need to
bother with the rest.
Well, that's not the problem. The very last place a sane person
should ask for advice about Relativity is from a bunch
of moron chemists in sci.physics or sci.military.
And if you're a zero IQ mathematician, rather than insane,
you really should post to a number theory journal,
rather than sci.physics.
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| User: "Uncle Al" |
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| Title: Re: Ambiguous Science |
08 Sep 2003 12:45:35 PM |
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Jenreth wrote:
It is well known that the special theory of relativity owes its
existence to the fact that there is an upper limit to velocities
of motion and signalling in nature, viz. the velocity of light.
http://fourmilab.to/etexts/einstein/specrel/specrel.pdf
Lightspeed is the speed limit of information transfer. It's value is
set by observation not theory.
This fact has also very important consequences for the subject of
cosmology, since it makes it impossible to investigate vast
spaces without also contemplating enormous lengths of time.
I hope you have both a destination and a quick way of getting there.
In
particular, any knowledge that we may possess about very distant
objects must be due to processes (signals) originating on those
objects a very long time ago. Although the very definitions of
distances and times become ambiguous in this context it is clear
that the great intervals occurring raise new questions.
A relativistic universe has four distinct distances: luminosity
(inverse square), angular diameter, parallax, and proper motion. All
are equally valid and no two need agree to maintain consistency.
There is no "ambiguity." Relativity demands that all quantities and
their evolution in time be *exactly" calculable. (Quantum mechanics
demurs.)
If (as is
widely held to be true) the Universe is in a state of evolution,
then light from distant parts of space must also convey
information about the early history of the Universe.
Hey git, do you have anything at all to say?
If, on the
other hand, there is no such evolution, then the light must
contain information about its absence.
Idiot.
Therefore the entire
question of the origin and the evolution of the Universe becomes
part of the general cosmological problem. In particular, the
nature of the very beginning (if there was one) or,
alternatively, the origin of all matter and radiation has formed
a specially controversial subject generally termed the problem of
"creation".
All the goodies are encoded in power vs. frequency of the cosmic
background radiation with empirical checks enforced by light element
natural universal abundances monitored by spectroscopy.
In this context, too, we encounter the habit of the human mind to
imagine that complexity is only ephemeral, that the further we
dip into the past the simpler the state we shall find.
[snip]
You've said nearly nothing, you are saying nothing, and the remainder
of you spew is empty of erudition, understanding, cleverness, and even
mild entertainment.
I don't want to be punched in the
face by God if you ***** him off.
-=-
This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
No doubt. You don't have the balls to appear nor the brains to make
it worthwhile.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm
(Do something naughty to physics)
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| User: "Martin Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: Ambiguous Science |
17 Sep 2003 01:24:49 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:44:07 +0000,
Anonymous-Remailer@See.Comment.Header (Jenreth) wrote:
It is well known that the special theory of relativity owes its
existence to the fact that there is an upper limit to velocities
of motion and signalling in nature, viz. the velocity of light.
Actually it was the other way round: the upper speed limit was deduced
from the theory and was probably not known by Einstein until he had
made considerable progress in developing the theory.
We cannot be absolutely certain signals are limited by the speed of
light, some physicists are still looking for tachyons. But if we ever
do mange to send signals any faster, then we should just as easilly be
able to send them backwoods in time :)
This fact has also very important consequences for the subject of
cosmology, since it makes it impossible to investigate vast
spaces without also contemplating enormous lengths of time. In
particular, any knowledge that we may possess about very distant
objects must be due to processes (signals) originating on those
objects a very long time ago. Although the very definitions of
distances and times become ambiguous in this context it is clear
that the great intervals occurring raise new questions.
Not ambiguous, just a little confusing to think about.
sci.physics.relativity has a FAQ which gives some good links:
http://www.weburbia.demon.co.uk/physics/relativity.html
If (as is
widely held to be true) the Universe is in a state of evolution,
then light from distant parts of space must also convey
information about the early history of the Universe. If, on the
other hand, there is no such evolution, then the light must
contain information about its absence.
There is no 'if' about it. What we see with telescopes - whether
optical, infra red or radio - is that this universe has changed
greatly over time.
Therefore the entire
question of the origin and the evolution of the Universe becomes
part of the general cosmological problem. In particular, the
nature of the very beginning (if there was one) or,
alternatively, the origin of all matter and radiation has formed
a specially controversial subject generally termed the problem of
"creation".
In this context, too, we encounter the habit of the human mind to
imagine that complexity is only ephemeral, that the further we
dip into the past the simpler the state we shall find. How far
this process can be continued is a question to which no agreed
answer is in sight. What type of "last answer" is found most
satisfactory depends on individual taste. Hence here less sure
guidance is given than elsewhere in science by how satisfying or
otherwise a theory is. Broadly speaking three types of answer as
to the nature of the "beginning" have been given, and opinions
differ widely as to the relative merits of these:
(i) The "beginning" is a singular point on the border of the
realm of physical science. Any question which refers to
antecedents of the beginning or its nature can no longer be
answered by physics, and is not a proper question for it.
(ii) The "beginning" was a particularly simple state, the
simplest, most harmonious and most permanent we can imagine. It
contained within itself, though, the seeds of growth and
evolution, which at some indefinite moment started off a chain of
complicated processes which by now have changed this to our
present Universe.
(iii) There was no "beginning". The Universe on the large scale
is either unchanging or possibly going through cyclical changes,
but is of infinite age.
or:-
(iv) Time as we know it is a psychological phenomena. The past which
is fixed and the future which we can create with the help of our
personal will do not really exist. 'Time' might better be regarded as
'duration', one kind of interval, similar to a spatial interval.
(Though time like intervals and space like intervals are not identical
in special relativity.)
Then this universe could be regarded - with a bit of poetic license -
as a multi dimensional sphere. There is a certain interesting point on
this sphere, which is often called 'the begriming'. But that is just
because our minds usually use the concepts of time and space to give
order to our perceptions.
See Julian Barbour's work for more details.
A cosmological theory must at least lead up to this, the problem
of "creation", and opinions differ as to what constitutes a
satisfactory answer which is, I don't want to be punched in the
face by God if you ***** him off.
Your fear is completely unnecessary.
This universe is certainly not controlled by a petty minded,
vindictive simpleton.
This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
Those things seem mainly to exist to amplify paranoia.
And they don't work ... the fnoords will get you anyway!
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| User: "ZZBunker" |
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| Title: Re: Ambiguous Science |
17 Sep 2003 11:21:38 PM |
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(Martin Thomas) wrote in message news:<a439e7a4.0309171024.335d5382@posting.google.com>...
On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:44:07 +0000,
Anonymous-Remailer@See.Comment.Header (Jenreth) wrote:
It is well known that the special theory of relativity owes its
existence to the fact that there is an upper limit to velocities
of motion and signalling in nature, viz. the velocity of light.
Actually it was the other way round: the upper speed limit was deduced
from the theory and was probably not known by Einstein until he had
made considerable progress in developing the theory.
Actually it was once the first way around. As Einstein
wrote many times in his books. And it's also the reason
that Einstein kept telling Shroedinger, that you'll never
make it in the equation market kid, since cat's don't fly.
So, you better look into a government job.
We cannot be absolutely certain signals are limited by the speed of
light, some physicists are still looking for tachyons. But if we ever
do mange to send signals any faster, then we should just as easilly be
able to send them backwoods in time :)
We are certain that signals are not limited by the
speed of light. And we're also certain that
physicists know even less about signals than
Einstone and his Euclid dork band of metric wannabees.
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