Religions > Atheism > America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay!
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Walter Goldman" |
| Date: |
24 Apr 2004 02:56:29 PM |
| Object: |
America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay!
Blame-America-first sympathizers of Japanese warmongers exploit a
display by the Smithsonian Institution to attack President Bush.
Anti-nuclear Zealots Decry Smithsonian's Exhibit of Enola Gay
Susan Jones
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003
Survivors of the U.S. atomic bomb attack on Japan plan to protest the
Smithsonian Institution's new aircraft museum in suburban Virginia,
because the exhibit includes the Enola Gay, the plane that dropped the
first atomic bomb on Hiroshima. The Japanese will be joined by
Americans who strongly oppose the Bush
administration's nuclear policies.
The Smithsonian Institution's new Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, an
annex of the Air and Space Museum, is scheduled to open on Monday in a
huge new building near Dulles International Airport in Chantilly, Va.
In anticipation of that event, delegations of atomic bomb survivors
were arriving in the Washington area Thursday.
Don't Forget Pearl Harbor and Bataan
The survivors say they strongly object to the way the Enola Gay is
being exhibited, "without mention of the human suffering caused by the
bomb it dropped in the city of Hiroshima," as they said in a press
release. They plan to present a petition of grievance to Smithsonian
officials.
The survivors said they "are also hoping to generate a discussion of
the Bush administration's below-the-radar drive to put the U.S. back
in the nuclear bomb-making business."
Japanese survivors of the atomic bomb aren't the only ones urging the
Smithsonian to rethink its exhibit.
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
The anti-nuke committee said the Air and Space Museum's exhibition of
the Enola Gay "dishonors the museum and the nation and serves the
purposes of those who seek to normalize nuclear weapons and facilitate
their future use."
"The celebration of a weapon that delivered an atomic attack, in the
context of the administration's pursuit of new nukes and its 'do as we
say, not as we do' non-proliferation policy, sends the world the wrong
message," said Kevin Martin, a member of the anti-nuke committee.
"America's credibility in the international community, particularly on
the issue of weapons of mass destruction, is low enough already," he
said. "We must have an honest conversation about what it means to have
used nuclear weapons and the implications of designing new nuclear
weapons while maintaining a stockpile of over 10,000 nuclear
warheads."
On Monday, Dec. 15, the Japanese survivors and American protesters
plan to hold what they call a "solemn, dignified demonstration" in
front of the Enola Gay, at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center. Protesters
said they will carry full-size photos of the damage and suffering
inflicted by the atomic
bombs.
History Speaks for Itself, Veterans Say
On the other side of the argument stands the pilot of the Enola Gay,
retired Brig. Gen. Paul W. Tibbets, 88 years old.
Tibbets recently visited the Smithsonian's new aircraft museum annex,
and he was quoted as saying that the protesters were ignoring the
reason the atomic bomb was dropped. "Casualties are part of war ...
but this is not the ground on which you argue those facts," Tibbets
was quoted as telling a Japanese television crew.
He and other American veterans note that the bombing of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki forced a quicker end to World War II, saving many American
and Japanese lives.
The Smithsonian's exhibit includes about 80 planes and more than 2,000
artifacts.
It is expected to be one of the Washington area's major tourist
attractions.
--
Left-wing liberals are EVERYTHING they accuse the right of being. They
are mean, vicious, hateful, greedy, cold-hearted, closed-minded,
selfish, intolerant, bigoted and racist.
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| User: "Martin W. Smith" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 06:01:36 AM |
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Walter Goldman <viper426@N0SPAM.C0M> wrote:
Blame-America-first sympathizers of Japanese warmongers exploit a
display by the Smithsonian Institution to attack President Bush.
Walter, Walter, Walter, that's not right. The enola Gay should be
exhibited in Hiroshima. The attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an
attack on civilians. that's a war crime, so the Enola Gay, the symbol
of that war crime, should be exhibited at the site of that war crime.
Get your facts straight.
martin
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 10:47:42 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:01:36 +0200, a stranger
called by some Martin W. Smith <no.email@this.time> came forth and
told this tale in alt.atheism
Walter Goldman <viper426@N0SPAM.C0M> wrote:
Blame-America-first sympathizers of Japanese warmongers exploit a
display by the Smithsonian Institution to attack President Bush.
Walter, Walter, Walter, that's not right. The enola Gay should be
exhibited in Hiroshima. The attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an
attack on civilians. that's a war crime, so the Enola Gay, the symbol
of that war crime, should be exhibited at the site of that war crime.
Get your facts straight.
Ah. So, the entire air campaign on both sides was a war crime?
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Martin W. Smith" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
26 Apr 2004 03:18:58 AM |
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Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:01:36 +0200, a stranger
called by some Martin W. Smith <no.email@this.time> came forth and
told this tale in alt.atheism
Walter Goldman <viper426@N0SPAM.C0M> wrote:
Blame-America-first sympathizers of Japanese warmongers exploit a
display by the Smithsonian Institution to attack President Bush.
Walter, Walter, Walter, that's not right. The enola Gay should be
exhibited in Hiroshima. The attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an
attack on civilians. that's a war crime, so the Enola Gay, the symbol
of that war crime, should be exhibited at the site of that war crime.
Get your facts straight.
Ah. So, the entire air campaign on both sides was a war crime?
Certainly not the entire air campaign on both sides, but there were
many such war crimes committed. The fire bombing of Dresden, for
example. I don't know my Japanese war history, so I can't name their
attrocities. There must have been some in Manchuria.
martin
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| User: "Sigourney Smoley" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
26 Apr 2004 07:34:09 PM |
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Martin W. Smith <no.email@this.time> wrote in message news:<7chp80lrq4mpsbvbs2blmk2fsaohsiksg3@4ax.com>...
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:01:36 +0200, a stranger
called by some Martin W. Smith <no.email@this.time> came forth and
told this tale in alt.atheism
Walter Goldman <viper426@N0SPAM.C0M> wrote:
Blame-America-first sympathizers of Japanese warmongers exploit a
display by the Smithsonian Institution to attack President Bush.
Walter, Walter, Walter, that's not right. The enola Gay should be
exhibited in Hiroshima. The attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an
attack on civilians. that's a war crime, so the Enola Gay, the symbol
of that war crime, should be exhibited at the site of that war crime.
Get your facts straight.
Ah. So, the entire air campaign on both sides was a war crime?
Certainly not the entire air campaign on both sides, but there were
many such war crimes committed. The fire bombing of Dresden, for
example. I don't know my Japanese war history, so I can't name their
attrocities. There must have been some in Manchuria.
martin
The Japanse military were genocidal in China. They were kind of rough
on themselves as well. They are an interesting nation.
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| User: "Steven Litvintchouk" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
24 Apr 2004 07:05:55 PM |
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Walter Goldman wrote:
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by "balance."
The Bataan Death March
----------------------
In 1942, after having held out for months, the American and Filipino
troops on the island of Bataan surrendered to the Japanese.
This is what happened:
From the day of surrender on, the POWs would be harshly beaten and
killed for the slightest or no reason at all. Officer status did not
provide protection either. First the troops were searched. Any prisoner
found with Japanese souvenirs was executed immediately, because the
Japanese believed the soldier must have killed a Japanese soldier in
order to get it. Many soldiers had found these items, such as money and
shaving mirrors. Their own personal property was usually stolen as well.
(48)
The Bataan Death March began at Mariveles on April 10, 1942. Any troops
who fell behind were executed. Japanese troops beat soldiers randomly,
and denied the POWs food and water for many days. One of their tortures
was known as the sun treatment. The Philippines in April is very hot.
Therefore, the POWs were forced to sit in the sun without any shade,
helmets, or water. Anyone who dared ask for water was executed. On the
rare occasion they were given any food, it was only a handful of
contaminated rice. When the prisoners were allowed to sleep for a few
hours at night, they were packed into enclosures so tight that they
could barely move. Those who lived collapsed on the dead bodies of their
comrades. For only a brief part of the march would POWs be packed into
railroad cars and allowed to ride. Those who did not die in the
suffocating boxcars were forced to march about seven more miles until
they reached their camp. It took the POWs over a week to reach their
destination. (49) Those on Corregidor would suffer the same fate as
their fellow soldiers on Bataan did as they too were transferred to
Bataan.
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~ehimchak/death_march.html
Tojo's orders regarding POWs was very clear. Guards "must supervise
their charges rigidly, taking care not to become obsessed with mistaken
ideas of humanitarianism or swayed by personal feelings toward prisoners
that might grow over a long incarceration." (50) Rarely did top
government officials visit any Japanese prison camps. Therefore, the
local commanders could do as they wished without reprimand. However,
considering the indoctrination of Japanese troops, reprimand was highly
unlikely. If the commander wished, he could make anything, even
whistling, a crime and inflict any type of punishment, including
execution. (51)
The Geneva Convention stated that if a prisoner escaped and was
recaptured, he was not to be punished. However, the Japanese did not
care. The POWs were forced to sign non-escape oaths soon after they
reached the POW camps. They signed at the advice of their officers with
the secret understanding that the oaths were not morally binding.
Escapes were rare. Any re-captured escapees were executed. Not only were
they killed in front of the other POWs, but ten additional POWs were
executed as well. While some officers knew the Geneva Convention said it
was their duty to escape, many did not know this and the rest did not
want to have the POWs left behind to suffer for their actions should
they get caught. Therefore, few escapes were attempted. Fewer still
succeeded. (52) Successful escapees, such as Dyess, were the rare
exception and not the rule.
There were over 140,000 white POWs in Japanese prison camps. They
received the harshest treatment of all.
One in three died in captivity at the hands of the Japanese, starved to
death, worked to death, beaten to death, dead of loathsome epidemic
diseases that the Japanese would not treat. From the beginning, what the
Japanese did to their prisoners, body and soul, was humanly appalling.
Even so, the prisoners stayed and took it. For them the stakes were: try
to escape, with the chances of suffering and dying almost a hundred
percent, or stay with what turned out to be a two-to-one chance of
surviving. The final gross score was: died trying to escape, next to
none; died as prisoners, tens of thousands. (54)
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~ehimchak/POW_camps.html
I just wanted to provide some "balance" here. :-)
-- Steven L.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 05:56:46 AM |
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"Steven Litvintchouk" <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:DhDic.8964$gH6.7094@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Walter Goldman wrote:
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by "balance."
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "ShrikeBack" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 11:00:28 AM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message news:<408b9958$0$7367$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>...
"Steven Litvintchouk" <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:DhDic.8964$gH6.7094@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Walter Goldman wrote:
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by "balance."
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
Oh. You forgot about Kuwait, eh?
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 11:35:40 AM |
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"ShrikeBack" <hewpiedawg@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:59b8bc96.0404250800.d8132f1@posting.google.com...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:<408b9958$0$7367$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>...
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by
"balance."
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
Oh. You forgot about Kuwait, eh?
Nope, but that was in 1991...........
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 06:16:51 AM |
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Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by "balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 06:56:00 AM |
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"georgann" <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:BCB11662.35384AA3%chenault@mindspring.com...
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by
"balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
Yip. Iraq didn't attack anybody.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 07:08:03 AM |
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But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by "balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
"Jez" wrote:
Yip. Iraq didn't attack anybody.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Uh huh.
Watch out for people selling bridges.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 10:38:44 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 25 Apr 2004 12:08:03 GMT, a stranger
called by some georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by "balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
"Jez" wrote:
Yip. Iraq didn't attack anybody.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Uh huh.
OK, since 1991, when we threw them out of Kuwait, what have they done?
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 09:50:12 AM |
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Jez <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in alt.atheism
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by
"balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
Yip. Iraq didn't attack anybody.
Saddam tried to undermine the value of the US dollar, and that was
a big NO NO according to world economists and political analysts that
I've read articles from. It might just be another unfounded
conspiracy theory, but I don't think it's wise to discount all of the
evidence which points in that general direction...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 10:25:51 AM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:5ljn809jgg6658s5c5tecmve2f86k73pfr@4ax.com...
Jez <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in alt.atheism
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by
"balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
Yip. Iraq didn't attack anybody.
Saddam tried to undermine the value of the US dollar, and that was
a big NO NO according to world economists and political analysts that
I've read articles from. It might just be another unfounded
conspiracy theory, but I don't think it's wise to discount all of the
evidence which points in that general direction...
Well, he did convert to the Euro in 2000.
Not really enough to justify a war though...
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 11:48:40 AM |
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Jez <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
Jez <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in alt.atheism
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by
"balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
Yip. Iraq didn't attack anybody.
Saddam tried to undermine the value of the US dollar, and that was
a big NO NO according to world economists and political analysts that
I've read articles from. It might just be another unfounded
conspiracy theory, but I don't think it's wise to discount all of the
evidence which points in that general direction...
Well, he did convert to the Euro in 2000.
Not really enough to justify a war though...
Enough to try to stop an OPEC domino effect, perhaps...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 12:33:05 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:cpqn80t7silutn8nv9mh0mvgrehn40bd83@4ax.com...
Jez <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
Jez <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in alt.atheism
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message
But somehow , I don't think that's what these peaceniks mean by
"balance."
"Jez" wrote:
Yeah...and the totally unprovoked and illegal invasion of Iraq.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
"Unprovoked"???
Yip. Iraq didn't attack anybody.
Saddam tried to undermine the value of the US dollar, and that was
a big NO NO according to world economists and political analysts that
I've read articles from. It might just be another unfounded
conspiracy theory, but I don't think it's wise to discount all of the
evidence which points in that general direction...
Well, he did convert to the Euro in 2000.
Not really enough to justify a war though...
Enough to try to stop an OPEC domino effect, perhaps...
Ahh well....now we enter into the heart of the matter !
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "The Amazing Liberal Terrorist" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 07:49:24 AM |
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Steven Litvintchouk <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message news:<DhDic.8964$gH6.7094@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Walter Goldman wrote:
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
You won't find anyone, liberal or otherwise, arguing with you on the
point that Japan were in the wrong. The unprovoked behaviour of the
Japanese military was totally without excuse.
However, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not to blame for
the actions of their dictator. To kill so many civilians on purpose is
a war crime, and no amount of proof of wrongdoing by the Japanese can
excuse such actions. "He started it" is only a defence when you're in
primary school.
Yours, as ever,
TALT
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 08:50:49 AM |
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"The Amazing Liberal Terrorist" <libterror@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11ec7330.0404250449.462d2bd4@posting.google.com...
Steven Litvintchouk <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:<DhDic.8964$gH6.7094@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Walter Goldman wrote:
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
You won't find anyone, liberal or otherwise, arguing with you on the
point that Japan were in the wrong. The unprovoked behaviour of the
Japanese military was totally without excuse.
However, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not to blame for
the actions of their dictator. To kill so many civilians on purpose is
a war crime, and no amount of proof of wrongdoing by the Japanese can
excuse such actions. "He started it" is only a defence when you're in
primary school.
We killed far more civilians with conventional bombers in Japan, just as we
did in Europe (Dresden etc etc). But yeah... lots of 'war crimes' in WW-II.
Truman justified it by a forcing a quick end to the Island hopping war, and
to avoid up to 1 million American casualities invading the mainland. We also
gave 'fair warning' - but the Japs were a lot like Islamic suicide bombers
in their zeal. Hard to say of course, but it might have actually saved many
lives when compared to a mainland invasion and months more of conventional
war/bombing ... including Jap civilians.
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| User: "The Amazing Liberal Terrorist" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
02 May 2004 12:40:21 PM |
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"John" <John@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<ZmPic.72157$L31.22588@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
"The Amazing Liberal Terrorist" <libterror@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11ec7330.0404250449.462d2bd4@posting.google.com...
Steven Litvintchouk <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:<DhDic.8964$gH6.7094@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Walter Goldman wrote:
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
You won't find anyone, liberal or otherwise, arguing with you on the
point that Japan were in the wrong. The unprovoked behaviour of the
Japanese military was totally without excuse.
However, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not to blame for
the actions of their dictator. To kill so many civilians on purpose is
a war crime, and no amount of proof of wrongdoing by the Japanese can
excuse such actions. "He started it" is only a defence when you're in
primary school.
We killed far more civilians with conventional bombers in Japan, just as we
did in Europe (Dresden etc etc). But yeah... lots of 'war crimes' in WW-II.
Truman justified it by a forcing a quick end to the Island hopping war, and
to avoid up to 1 million American casualities invading the mainland. We also
gave 'fair warning' - but the Japs were a lot like Islamic suicide bombers
in their zeal. Hard to say of course, but it might have actually saved many
lives when compared to a mainland invasion and months more of conventional
war/bombing ... including Jap civilians.
You make two points there. The first is that the bombings saved more
lives than they took. That is factually questionable, but morally
spot-on.
The other is that we gave "fair warning". The trouble is that it was
their rulers who we gave warning to and their rulers who failed to
heed this warning. My whole point is that the people of Japan
shouldn't have suffered for the wrongs of their leaders. It is like
the police excusing their killing of hostages because they gave proper
warning to the hostage takers.
Yours, as ever,
TALT
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| User: "Sigourney Smoley" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
26 Apr 2004 07:32:44 PM |
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(The Amazing Liberal Terrorist) wrote in message news:<11ec7330.0404250449.462d2bd4@posting.google.com>...
Steven Litvintchouk <sdlitvin@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message news:<DhDic.8964$gH6.7094@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Walter Goldman wrote:
Still Blaming America First
Another group, Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History
and Current Policy, headed by an American University professor, said
it had collected more than 400 signatures, including those of Nobel
laureates, urging the Smithsonian to present a "balanced discussion"
of the atomic bombings in 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy.
Hey, I'm all for a "balanced discussion."
As part of that "balanced" discussion, they should talk about:
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Manchuria
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against China
- the totally unprovoked Japanese aggression against Korea
- the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor
- the Bataan Death March
- the torture of American fliers who were shot down over Japan
- the rape of Nanking
You won't find anyone, liberal or otherwise, arguing with you on the
point that Japan were in the wrong. The unprovoked behaviour of the
Japanese military was totally without excuse.
Not entirely without western precedent though.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 10:46:37 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on 25 Apr 2004 05:49:24 -0700, a stranger called
by some (The Amazing Liberal Terrorist) came
forth and told this tale in alt.atheism
However, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not to blame for
the actions of their dictator. To kill so many civilians on purpose is
a war crime, and no amount of proof of wrongdoing by the Japanese can
excuse such actions. "He started it" is only a defence when you're in
primary school.
More people died in one night of firebombing of Tokyo. Bet you can't
even tell me that date of that, can you?
This was a war, not a schoolyard fight. Japan had the power to stop
the war by surrendering at any point. They no longer had a Navy,
their air power was reduced to half-trained kamikazi pilots, and the
home islands were on the verge of starvation. How did Tojo's
government respond? The started preparing to fight the invasion of
Japan by given spears to school children.
Operation Olympic, the invasion of Japan, would have cost a million
allied casualties, and ten times that in Japanese military and civlian
deaths. The inevitable famine and disease would have killed millions
more.
I'm giving you Truman's choice: The Japanese refuse to surrender even
in the face of obvious defeat. You can:
A: Drop the bomb on Hiroshima, and make it clear that we are willing
to do it again.
B: Invade the Home Islands in November, and engage in a grinding
ground campaign.
C: Blockade the Japanese homeland and wair for famine and disease to
kill everone.
Which do you chose, Mr. President?
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
25 Apr 2004 11:57:55 AM |
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"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:mtmn80tbe2j6l53imjikb4m0r2v9g89uh0@4ax.com...
Lo, many moons past, on 25 Apr 2004 05:49:24 -0700, a stranger called
by some (The Amazing Liberal Terrorist) came
forth and told this tale in alt.atheism
However, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not to blame for
the actions of their dictator. To kill so many civilians on purpose is
a war crime, and no amount of proof of wrongdoing by the Japanese can
excuse such actions. "He started it" is only a defence when you're in
primary school.
More people died in one night of firebombing of Tokyo. Bet you can't
even tell me that date of that, can you?
This was a war, not a schoolyard fight. Japan had the power to stop
the war by surrendering at any point. They no longer had a Navy,
their air power was reduced to half-trained kamikazi pilots, and the
home islands were on the verge of starvation. How did Tojo's
government respond? The started preparing to fight the invasion of
Japan by given spears to school children.
Operation Olympic, the invasion of Japan, would have cost a million
allied casualties, and ten times that in Japanese military and civlian
deaths. The inevitable famine and disease would have killed millions
more.
I'm giving you Truman's choice: The Japanese refuse to surrender even
in the face of obvious defeat. You can:
A: Drop the bomb on Hiroshima, and make it clear that we are willing
to do it again.
B: Invade the Home Islands in November, and engage in a grinding
ground campaign.
C: Blockade the Japanese homeland and wair for famine and disease to
kill everone.
Which do you chose, Mr. President?
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
You said it MUCH better than me. Kudos
John
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| User: "Sigourney Smoley" |
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| Title: Re: America Hating Liberal Zealots Decry Exhibit of Enola Gay! |
26 Apr 2004 07:41:24 PM |
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Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message news:<mtmn80tbe2j6l53imjikb4m0r2v9g89uh0@4ax.com>...
Lo, many moons past, on 25 Apr 2004 05:49:24 -0700, a stranger called
by some (The Amazing Liberal Terrorist) came
forth and told this tale in alt.atheism
However, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not to blame for
the actions of their dictator. To kill so many civilians on purpose is
a war crime, and no amount of proof of wrongdoing by the Japanese can
excuse such actions. "He started it" is only a defence when you're in
primary school.
More people died in one night of firebombing of Tokyo. Bet you can't
even tell me that date of that, can you?
This was a war, not a schoolyard fight. Japan had the power to stop
the war by surrendering at any point.
The Japanese don't do that surrender stuff too often. It is important
to know one's enemy and the Japanese military were clearly
institutionalized zealots.
They no longer had a Navy,
their air power was reduced to half-trained kamikazi pilots, and the
home islands were on the verge of starvation. How did Tojo's
government respond? The started preparing to fight the invasion of
Japan by given spears to school children.
The Japanese were preparing for defeat and settlement at an early
stage in the war. They hoped for acceptable terms.
Operation Olympic, the invasion of Japan, would have cost a million
allied casualties, and ten times that in Japanese military and civlian
deaths. The inevitable famine and disease would have killed millions
more.
Not really Japan was incapable or organized military resistance and to
be perfectly honest the US submarines might have won the war virtually
on their own if somebody has done their sums to begin with.
I'm giving you Truman's choice: The Japanese refuse to surrender even
in the face of obvious defeat. You can:
A: Drop the bomb on Hiroshima, and make it clear that we are willing
to do it again.
B: Invade the Home Islands in November, and engage in a grinding
ground campaign.
C: Blockade the Japanese homeland and wair for famine and disease to
kill everone.
Which do you chose, Mr. President?
Drop the bomb before the Russians arrive with their steam-roller act.
However the real question might have been 'what' to drop it on.
The Russians might have killed or captured more Japanese soldiers in a
week or so than the allies did in the rest of the war.
What you think?
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