"Unpleasant Truth" <no....@nowhere.com> wrote:

:|Oh, yes. A "well reasoned, scholarly essay" - at least what passes for
:|such from idiot left-wingers who know - and care - nothing about the
:|original meaning of the constitution.

Original meanings? Let's look at some history

* The Ten Commandments Issues
o The Complete Ten Commandments, a Study Guide
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/10commsg.htm

o Congress Shall Make No Law Respecting the Establishment of
Reason. Neal Blanchett, Esq. comments on the Ten Commandments controversy.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/blanch2.htm

o The Seven Lost Commandments
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/7lostcom.htm

o Rev. John Leland on the Ten Commandments, Judge Moore and other
related things
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/leland10.htm

Study Guide: The Roots of American Democracy
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd8.htm

Roots of American Law
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/histlaw.htm

The Christian Bible and the Foundations of the U. S.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/biblfoun.htm

How often did the founders quote the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg9.htm

Did Montesquieu base his theory of separation of powers on the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/montesquieu.htm

Christianity and the Constitution
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg10.htm

Does the Constitution Embody Christian Thought and Morality?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg10a.htm

The "Sundays Excepted" clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg10b.htm

"The Year of Our Lord" and separation.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg10c.htm

Federal officials take their oaths upon a Bible, and use the words
"so help me God." http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg11.htm

* A Baptist minister and follow warrior with Jefferson, Madison
and others in the struggle for religious freedom gave this advice
about electing public officials: "...guard against those men who make
a great noise about religion..."
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/leland5.htm

* Madison's Arguments Against Special Religious Sanction of
American Government
http://candst.tripod.com/madlib.htm

* Treaty of Tripoli, 1796: Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by
President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm

Is it true that Madison said "Our future is staked on the 10
commandments?"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/misq1.htm

Is it true that Madison said "Religion is the foundation of government?"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/misq2.htm

***********************************************************
* The Ten Commandments Issues
o The Complete Ten Commandments, a Study Guide
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/10commsg.htm
[excerpt]

American Founding Era

Adams & Jefferson Questioned The Source of The Ten Commandments

November 14, 1813

Quincy Nov. 14, 1813

Among all your researches in Hebrew History and Controversy have you
ever met a book, the design of which is to prove, that the ten
Commandments, as We have them in our Catechisms and hung up in our
Churches, were not the Ten Commandments written by the Finger of God upon
tables, delivered to Moses on mount Sinai and broken by him in a passion
with Aaron for his golden calf, nor those afterwards engraved by him on
Tables of Stone; but a very different Sett of Commandments?

There is such a book by J. W. Goethens Schristen.84 Berlin 1775-1779.=

wish to see this Book.

You will see the Subject and perceive the question in Exodus 20. 1-17.
21-28. chapter 24- 3 etc. ch. 24- 12. ch. 25. 31 ch- 31. 18. ch- 31- 19.
ch. 34. 1. ch- 34. 10 etc.

I will make a Covenant with all this People. Observe that which I
command this day.

I

Thou shall not adore any other God. Therefore take heed, not to
enter into covenant, with the Inhabitants of this country; neither take f=

your Sons, their daughters in marriage. They would allure thee to the
Worship of false Gods. Much less shall you in any place, erect Images.

2

The Feast of unleavened bread, shall thou keep. Seven days, shall
thou eat unleavened bread, at the time of the month Abib; to remember that
about that time, I delivered thee from Egypt.

3

Every first born of the mother is mine; the male of thine herd, be
it Stock or flock. But you shall replace the first born of an ***** with a
Sheep. The first born of your Sons shall you redeem. No Man shall appear
before me with empty hands.

4

Six days shall thou labour: the seventh day, thou shall rest from
ploughing and gathering.

5

The Feast of Weeks shall thou keep, with the firstlings of the
Wheat Harvest: and the Feast of Harvesting, at the end of the year.

6

Thrice, in every year, all male persons shall appear before the
Lord. Nobody shall invade your Country, as long as you obey this Command.

7

Thou shall not sacrifice the blood of a Sacrifice of mine, upon
leavened bread.

8

The Sacrifice of the Passover shall not remain, till the next day.

9

The Firstlings of the produce of your land, thou shall bring to t=

House of the Lord.

10

Thou shall not boil the kid, while it is yet sucking.

And the Lord spake to Moses: Write these Words; as, after these
Words I made with you, and with Israel a Covenant.

I know not whether Goethens translated or abridged from the Hebrew, or
whether he used any translation Greek, Latin, or German. But he differs in
form and Words, somewhat from our Version. Exod. 34. 10. to 28. The Sense
seems to be the same. The Tables were the evidence of the covenant, by
which the Almighty attached the People of Israel to himself. By these laws
they were seperated from all other nations, and were reminded of the
principal Epochas of their History.

When and where originated our Ten Commandments? The Tables and The Ark
were lost. Authentic Copies, in few, if any hands; the ten Precepts could
not be observed, and were little remembered.

If the Book of Deuteronomy was compiled, during or after the Babiloni=

Captivity, from Traditions, the Error or Amendment might come in there.

But you must be weary, as I am at present, of Problems, Conjectures,
and paradoxes, concerning Hebrew, Grecian and Christian and all other
Antiquities; but while We believe that the finis bonorum will be happy, We
may leave learned men to this disquisitions and Criticisms.

I admire your Employment, in selecting the Philosophy and Divinity of
Jesus and seperating it from all intermixtures. If I had Eyes and Nerves,=

would go through both Testaments and mark all that I understand. To exami=

the Mishna Gemara Cabbala Jezirah, Sohar Cosri and Talmud of the Hebrews =

would require the life of Methuselah, and after all, his 969 Years would =

wasted to very little purpose. The Daemon of Hierarchical despotism has
been at Work, both with the Mishna and Gemara. In 1238 a French Jew, made=

discovery to the Pope (Gregory 9th) of the heresies of the Talmud.86, The
Pope sent 35 Articles of Error, to the Archbishops of France, requiring
them to seize the books of the Jews, and burn all that contained any
Errors. He wrote in the same terms to the Kings of France, England Arrago=

Castile Leon, Navarre and Portugal. In consequence of this Order 20
Cartloads of Hebrew Books were burnt in France: and how many times 20
Cartloads were destroyed in the other Kingdoms? The Talmud of Babylon and
that of Jerusalem were composed from 120 to 500 Years after the destructi=

of Jerusalem. If Lightfoot derived Light from what escaped from Gregorys
fury in explaining many passages in the New Testament by comparing the
Expressions of the Mishna, with those of the Apostles and Evangelists, how
many proofs of the Corruptions of Christianity might We find in the
Passages burnt?

John Adams

84. JA misread the f in Schriften for a long s and took the title for
part of the author's name (Goethens was a possessive form already
obsolescent). One of the earliest collected editions of Goethe's Writings,
unauthorized by him, was first issued by C. F. Himberg in 3 vols. (Berlin,
1775). A fourth volume (1779) included two tracts on religious subjects, =

part an early application of historical criticism to the Old Testament. T=

derivation of JA's translation of Goethe's selection from Exodus 34: 10-27
has not been determined.

85. The principal literary expressions of the Hebrew religion. The
Talmud as the main teaching of Judaism was under attack by the Catholic
Church from the thirteenth century on and at times copies by the cartload
were burned; hence manuscripts of the Talmud are extremely rare.

86. These burnings were ordered under Pope Innocent IV, not Gregory I=

Source of Informtaion:

Excerpt of letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 14, 1813. The
Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas
Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited By Lester J. Cappon, The
University of North Carolina Press, (1959; 1987) pp. 395-97

January 24, 1814

Monticello Jan. 24, 1813

Dear Sir

I have great need of the indulgence so kindly extended to me in your
favor of Dec. 25. of permitting me to answer your friendly letters at my
leisure. My frequent and long absences from home are a first cause of
tardiness in my correspondence, and a Id. the accumulation of business
during my absence, some of which imperiously commands first attentions. I
am now in arrear to you for your letters of Nov. 12. 14- 16. Dec. 3. 19.
25.

I, have made some enquiry about Taylor's book, 24 and I learn from a
neighbor of his that it has been understood for some time that he was
writing a political work. We had not heard of it's publication, nor has it
been announced in any of our papers. But this must be the book of 630.
pages which you have recieved; and certainly neither the style nor the
stuff of the author of Arator can ever be mistaken. In the latter work, as
you observe, there are some good things, but so involved in quaint, in
farfetched, affected, mystical conciepts, and flimsy theories, that who c=

take the trouble of getting at them?

You ask me if I have ever seen the work of J. W. Goethens Schristen?
Never. Nor did the question ever occur to me before Where get we the ten
commandments? The book indeed gives them to us verbatim. But where did it
get them? For itself tells us they were written by the finger of god on
tables of stone, which were destroyed by Moses: it specifies those on the
Id. set of tables in different form and substance, but still without sayi=

how the others were recovered. But the whole history of these books is so
defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into
it: and such tricks have been plaid with their text, and with the texts of
other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to
entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New testament
there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an
extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior
minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from
dunghills. The matter of the first was such as would be preserved in the
memory of the hearers, and handed on by tradition for a long time; the
latter such stuff as might be gathered up, for imbedding it, any where, a=

at any time.

24. Taylor, An Inquiry into the Government of the United States.

Source of Information:

Excerpt of letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Jan, 24, 1814. The
Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas
Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited By Lester J. Cappon, The
University of North Carolina Press, (1959; 1987) p.. 421.

Adams Identified The Commandments as Religion, at Least His Religion

[That doesn't exactly jive with all the religious right arguments that the
Commandments are the source of our laws, are historical, etc. They tend to
deny that the Ten Commandments are religious or religion.]

September 30, 1816

And if you will agree with me, We will issue our Bulls, and enjoin up=

all these Gentlemen to be Silent, till they can tell Us, What Matter is a=

What Spirit is! And in the mean time to observe the Commandments and the
Sermon on the Mount.

J. Adams

Source of Informtaion:

Excerpt of letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, Sept. 30, 1816. The
Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas
Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited By Lester J. Cappon, The
University of North Carolina Press, (1959; 1987)

p. 490

November 4, 1816

The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion.

John Adams

Source of Informtaion:

Excerpt of letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 4, 1816. The
Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas
Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited By Lester J. Cappon, The
University of North Carolina Press, (1959; 1987)

p. 494

The Rev. John Leland Stated That The Ten Commandments Were Unique to And
Applied Only to the Ancient Hebrews
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/leland10.htm
*************************************************************************=

Thomas Paine---Founder


When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables of
the commandments from the hands of God, they were not obliged to believe
him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling them so;
and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling me so. T=

commandments carry no internal evidence of divinity with them; they conta=

some good moral precepts, such as any man qualified to be a lawgiver, or a
legislator, could produce himself, without having recourse to supernatural
intervention. *

* Age of Reason, Footnote 1
It is, however, necessary to except the declaration which says that God
visits the sins of the fathers upon the children; it is contrary to every
principle of moral justice.
SOURCE: Age of Reason, Thomas Paine Age of Reason, Part First, Section 1
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/reason1.htm

The Age of Reason Thomas Paine, Part I Prometheus Books Buffalo, NY p 10
(1984)

*************************************************************************=

Age Of Reason
http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/AOR-Frame.html

*************************************************************************=

Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm

James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803

Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [=

(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from t=

Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oc=

1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98)

---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to t=

Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United State=

I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)

-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality =

the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church from the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)

----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives,=

biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have
no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done,
in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity
the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from James
Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)

--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833

"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to
trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil
authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other
or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded
against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any w=

whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting
each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to Rev. Jasper
Adams, September, 1833.Writings of James Madison, edited by Gaillard Hunt,
[not sure what the volume number is but have enough information presented
here to locate the letter] microform Z1236.L53, pp 484-488. )

Age Of Reason
http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/AOR-Frame.html

"The commandments carry no internal evidence of
divinity with them; they contain some good moral
precetps, such as any man qualified to be a
law-giver, or a legislator, cold produce himself,
whithout any recourse to supernatural intervention"

Thomas Paine; FOUNDER



- Show quoted text -
buckeye-...@nospam.net wrote:
From the President of the Local Chapter of Americans United
Americans United for Separation of Church and State Virginia Chapter
http://www.au-va.org/

Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 06:55:08 -0500
From: rlgould [delete]
Subject: Original Intent

The attachment is a scholarly examination of the original intent of the
founders about "oaths" by Jim Allison. Below I provide you with Jim's
conclusions from his review of content of oaths from 1787 to now.

The founders created a secular government by framing a secular
Constitution which was "godless" and/or "left God out" in the words of
traditionalists of the day. A secular constitution that separated church
and state.
The Founders approved a secular national motto
The Founders never put "in God we trust" on anything
The Founders never wrote or added "under God" to any documents.
The Founders never approved a Pledge but that is another story for
another day.
The Founders never posted the Ten Commandments, Jefferson and Adams even
questioned where they even came from. The Rev. John Leland stated they
applied only to ancient Israel. Thomas Paine was unimpressed by them.
The Founders framed a secular Constitution for a secular nation
The Founders separate religion and government in that document
The Founders rejected a oath of office that contained the word God for
all except members of the judiciary

All of the above additions that exist now was done by politicians for
political reasons long after the last of the founders had died.
In a letter to the New York Times (letter: Jan. 20, 1989; published:
Feb. 5, 1989), Burton Caine, a Professor of Law at Temple University,
sharply criticized George Bush's taking of the presidential oath:
"Although President Bush swore to preserve the Constitution, he did not
obey its precise command in taking the oath of office." Caine then
quotes the oath and observes, quite correctly, that this "is the only
place' in the Constitution where quotation marks are used." The framers
obviously intended, Caine goes on, that the President should "use the
exact words, no more, no less." But George Bush added "So help me God,"
and Caine asserts that this is "unconstitutional. " "The authors of
Article II understood that an oath traditionally could refer to a deity
and, by providing the precise language and omitting such reference,
clearly intended such words should not be said. I would implore our
President not to take liberties with the Constitution, especially in the
sensitive area of the separation of church and state. In a country with
a population as diverse as ours, a President who wants to represent all
the people must include deists and nondeists. The neutrality course
prescribed by the Constitution is not only the law, but it is also the
best policy." Perhaps Professor Caine is unaware of the fact that George
Washington, the Father of our Country, added the words "So help me
God," when he first took the oath.

[*There is no valid historical documentation showing that Washington
or any other President ever said "so help me God" when being sworn in,
at least not prior to the 1880s* ]

SOURCE: I Do Solemnly Swear: The President's Constitutional Oath Its
Meaning and Importance in the History of Oaths, Matthew A. Pauley,
University Press of America, Lanham, NY, Oxford, (1999) pp. 110-112; 22-=

SEE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/meetup/Congremv.pdf

**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education

You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why =

page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=

256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************