| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
01 Feb 2005 08:25:40 AM |
| Object: |
American Degeneracy Continues |
Very obvious echoes of Leontiev's "progressive simplification" in the
degenerates calling for Summers' head...
The Closing of the Harvard Mind
by Patrick J. Buchanan
A while back, after a German soccer team upset the favored British
national team, a columnist tried to console his distraught countrymen.
"Not to worry if the Germans beat us at our favorite sport," he wrote.
"After all, we beat them twice at theirs."
The point of the joke, of course, is a German aptitude for war even
Napoleon recognized. "Prussia was hatched from a cannonball," said the
Corsican. After conquering Prussia, he led his officers to the tomb of
Frederick the Great, who had fought France, Austria and Russia all at
once. "Hats off, gentlemen," said Napoleon. "If he were alive, we
should not be here."
Vietnam war hero Jim Webb in his splendid new book, Born Fighting, pays
tribute to the warrior qualities of the Scots-Irish clan whence he
came. From the Scottish lowlands to Ireland to the Confederate army,
Scots-Irish warriors have shown a bravery and ferocity in battle,
exemplified by the great Andrew Jackson.
Other ethnic groups have excelled in other ways. Italians have produced
many of the world's great works of art and sculpture. African-Americans
invented the only original American form of music. If one were to list
the greatest running backs in NFL history, the greatest players in NBA
history, the greatest athletes in track and field, blacks - though 12
percent of our population - would have several times that
representation in the respective halls of fame.
In intellectual and academic pursuits and Nobel Prizes, one finds an
extraordinary overrepresentation of Jewish-Americans.
In short, it seems not irrational to conclude God sprinkled his gifts
and talents unevenly among individuals and peoples. Early in the 20th
century, Americans like Sen. Albert Beveridge argued that the English
and Americans were uniquely endowed with the gifts of governance to
rule the world.
Among friends, at bars and around dinner tables, such things are
commonly discussed. The late great Murray Rothbard, the famed
libertarian and polymath, once confided to me at a most politically
incorrect dinner, "All stereotypes are true."
For the "proles" of Orwell's 1984, it is acceptable to loudly discuss
such ideas. But in the house of Big Brother, such heresies are hanging
offenses, as Harvard's president has found.
As much of the country now knows, Larry Summers, at a closed session in
Boston to discuss the progress of women in academia, suggested their
under-representation might be due to the fact that boys outperform
girls at the highest levels of math and science.
Statistically, this is undeniable. But Summers' suggestion there might
be a link between heredity and intelligence, between maleness and an
aptitude for higher math, just as there is between gender and strength,
caused one female Ph.D. to react as though she had been gassed.
"I felt I was going to be sick," said biology professor Nancy Hopkins
of MIT. "My heart was pounding, and my breath was shallow."
"I just couldn't breathe because this kind of bias makes me physically
ill." Had she not fled from the room, said Hopkins, "I would've either
blacked out or thrown up."
Economics professor Claudia Goldin of Harvard, however, spoke up at the
inquisition: "I left with a sense of elation at his ideas. ... I was
proud that the president of my university retains the inquisitiveness
of an academic." As of now, count has been lost as to how many times
Summers has begged forgiveness.
So, what does this tell us about Harvard, and about America?
Nothing that is good.
That a Ph.D. at MIT almost collapsed at hearing a central tenet of her
liberal orthodoxy questioned, that Summers has been forced to grovel
and apologize for an honest opinion, testifies to a neo-Stalinist
intolerance of politically incorrect thought at Harvard. Why are U.S.
taxpayers being forced to subsidize these liberal madrassas?
Harvard is apparently home not only to the close-minded, but the
snobbish. "It's one thing for an ordinary person to shoot his mouth off
like that," sneered Hopkins, "but quite another for a top education
leader." What Hopkins is saying is that "ordinary" folks may be so
stupid as not to believe in egalitarianism, but no Harvard academic may
disbelieve and remain part of the intellectual elite.
But Jefferson had it right. All men are created equal only in the sense
that they are all born with God-given rights to life and liberty. As
for who should rule, Jefferson wrote, it should be a "natural
aristocracy" based upon virtue and talent.
These are to be discovered in the competition of life.
As for the demand for more "diversity" at Harvard, for more women
professors of math and science, whether or not they are the highest
achievers - which was the reason for the conference at which Summers
spoke - it is born of a Marxist mindset.
This is a mindset that cannot abide freedom and a meritocracy, for, all
too often, they fail to produce the equalities of result to which all
else, including justice, must be sacrificed.
----------
BM
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| User: "Captain!" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
02 Feb 2005 04:36:18 PM |
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<cherniymonakh@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1107267940.920501.211220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Very obvious echoes of Leontiev's "progressive simplification" in the
degenerates calling for Summers' head...
The Closing of the Harvard Mind
by Patrick J. Buchanan
A while back, after a German soccer team upset the favored British
national team, a columnist tried to console his distraught countrymen.
"Not to worry if the Germans beat us at our favorite sport," he wrote.
"After all, we beat them twice at theirs."
The point of the joke, of course, is a German aptitude for war even
Napoleon recognized. "Prussia was hatched from a cannonball," said the
Corsican. After conquering Prussia, he led his officers to the tomb of
Frederick the Great, who had fought France, Austria and Russia all at
once. "Hats off, gentlemen," said Napoleon. "If he were alive, we
should not be here."
Vietnam war hero Jim Webb in his splendid new book, Born Fighting, pays
tribute to the warrior qualities of the Scots-Irish clan whence he
came. From the Scottish lowlands to Ireland to the Confederate army,
Scots-Irish warriors have shown a bravery and ferocity in battle,
exemplified by the great Andrew Jackson.
Other ethnic groups have excelled in other ways. Italians have produced
many of the world's great works of art and sculpture. African-Americans
invented the only original American form of music. If one were to list
the greatest running backs in NFL history, the greatest players in NBA
history, the greatest athletes in track and field, blacks - though 12
percent of our population - would have several times that
representation in the respective halls of fame.
In intellectual and academic pursuits and Nobel Prizes, one finds an
extraordinary overrepresentation of Jewish-Americans.
In short, it seems not irrational to conclude God sprinkled his gifts
and talents unevenly among individuals and peoples. Early in the 20th
century, Americans like Sen. Albert Beveridge argued that the English
and Americans were uniquely endowed with the gifts of governance to
rule the world.
Among friends, at bars and around dinner tables, such things are
commonly discussed. The late great Murray Rothbard, the famed
libertarian and polymath, once confided to me at a most politically
incorrect dinner, "All stereotypes are true."
For the "proles" of Orwell's 1984, it is acceptable to loudly discuss
such ideas. But in the house of Big Brother, such heresies are hanging
offenses, as Harvard's president has found.
As much of the country now knows, Larry Summers, at a closed session in
Boston to discuss the progress of women in academia, suggested their
under-representation might be due to the fact that boys outperform
girls at the highest levels of math and science.
Statistically, this is undeniable. But Summers' suggestion there might
be a link between heredity and intelligence, between maleness and an
aptitude for higher math, just as there is between gender and strength,
caused one female Ph.D. to react as though she had been gassed.
"I felt I was going to be sick," said biology professor Nancy Hopkins
of MIT. "My heart was pounding, and my breath was shallow."
"I just couldn't breathe because this kind of bias makes me physically
ill." Had she not fled from the room, said Hopkins, "I would've either
blacked out or thrown up."
Economics professor Claudia Goldin of Harvard, however, spoke up at the
inquisition: "I left with a sense of elation at his ideas. ... I was
proud that the president of my university retains the inquisitiveness
of an academic." As of now, count has been lost as to how many times
Summers has begged forgiveness.
So, what does this tell us about Harvard, and about America?
Nothing that is good.
That a Ph.D. at MIT almost collapsed at hearing a central tenet of her
liberal orthodoxy questioned, that Summers has been forced to grovel
and apologize for an honest opinion, testifies to a neo-Stalinist
intolerance of politically incorrect thought at Harvard. Why are U.S.
taxpayers being forced to subsidize these liberal madrassas?
Harvard is apparently home not only to the close-minded, but the
snobbish. "It's one thing for an ordinary person to shoot his mouth off
like that," sneered Hopkins, "but quite another for a top education
leader." What Hopkins is saying is that "ordinary" folks may be so
stupid as not to believe in egalitarianism, but no Harvard academic may
disbelieve and remain part of the intellectual elite.
But Jefferson had it right. All men are created equal only in the sense
that they are all born with God-given rights to life and liberty. As
for who should rule, Jefferson wrote, it should be a "natural
aristocracy" based upon virtue and talent.
These are to be discovered in the competition of life.
As for the demand for more "diversity" at Harvard, for more women
professors of math and science, whether or not they are the highest
achievers - which was the reason for the conference at which Summers
spoke - it is born of a Marxist mindset.
This is a mindset that cannot abide freedom and a meritocracy, for, all
too often, they fail to produce the equalities of result to which all
else, including justice, must be sacrificed.
----------
BM
interesting article but it only serves to show a split in public opinion
according to patty. how does it demonstrate american degeneracy in general?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
02 Feb 2005 05:01:35 PM |
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The Closing of the Harvard Mind
by Patrick J. Buchanan
The point of the joke, of course, is a German aptitude for war
Not so much aptitude as attitude...
After conquering Prussia, he led his officers to t=ADhe tomb of
Frederick the Great, who had fought France, Austria and
Russ=ADia all at once.
As a Russian, I don't recall Prussia fighting Russia....
Other ethnic groups have excelled in other ways. Italians
have produced many of the world's great works of art and sculpture.
Only in the Middle Ages and renaissance. In the 19th century, most of
"the world's great works of art and sculpture" were produced in France,
which had produced no great art during Renaissance.
Clearly, nations' interests and "abilities" change with times.
Another example. These very Italians, so despised for their military
inferiority, were the best fighters in Ancient Roman times.
And who, before 1948, would have thought that Jews would make the best
and most disciplined soldiers in the World?
In short, it seems not irrational to conclude God sprinkled =ADhis
gifts
and talents unevenly among individuals and peoples.
Maybe. But not as simplicitely as Buchanan seems to think.
As much of the country now knows, Larry Summers, at a closed=AD
session in
Boston to discuss the progress of women in academia, suggest=ADed their
under-representation might be due to the fact that boys outperform
girls at the highest levels of math and science. Statistically, this
is undeniable.
_That_ I agree with. Gender roles are different genetically.
"I felt I was going to be sick," said biology professor Nanc=ADy
Hopkins
of MIT. "My heart was pounding, and my breath was shallow."
"I just couldn't breathe because this kind of bias makes me
=ADphysically
ill." Had she not fled from the room, said Hopkins, "I would've
either
blacked out or thrown up."
Looks like she freely admits to severe pathological physiological and
psychiatric reactions to scientific opinions that she doesn't share.
How such a closed-minded and bigoted person can work as a scientist at
the top education institution in the World is beyond me. Maybe,
affirmative action? :-)
Harvard is apparently home not only to the close-minded, but=AD the
snobbish.
Harvard?!!! Excuse me but the woman in question is from MIT! Harvard is
the home to the President who spoke the truth. Buchanan's mind is
slipping.
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| User: "Vladimir Makarenko" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 03:46:15 PM |
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wrote:
The Closing of the Harvard Mind
by Patrick J. Buchanan
The point of the joke, of course, is a German aptitude for war
Not so much aptitude as attitude...
After conquering Prussia, he led his officers to the tomb of
Frederick the Great, who had fought France, Austria and
Russia all at once.
As a Russian, I don't recall Prussia fighting Russia....
He did and was defeated by Catherine the Great army, unfortunately she
died at a crucial moment, Pavel the First got on throne and surrender
all fruits of victory back to Frederick - his Idol - the rest you know.
Other ethnic groups have excelled in other ways. Italians
have produced many of the world's great works of art and sculpture.
Only in the Middle Ages and renaissance. In the 19th century, most of
"the world's great works of art and sculpture" were produced in France,
which had produced no great art during Renaissance.
Add to that literature and cinema of XX century.
Clearly, nations' interests and "abilities" change with times.
Another example. These very Italians, so despised for their military
inferiority, were the best fighters in Ancient Roman times.
Oops, how many of them are those from Ancient Rome, besides who knows
what the Romans do if faced the today's European nations.
And who, before 1948, would have thought that Jews would make the best
and most disciplined soldiers in the World?
Oops, what makes you say so? They face the most undisciplined and
unqualified armies in the world - Arabs.
In short, it seems not irrational to conclude God sprinkled his
gifts
and talents unevenly among individuals and peoples.
Maybe. But not as simplicitely as Buchanan seems to think.
Buchanan may be weird but not stupid or simplistic.
As much of the country now knows, Larry Summers, at a closed
session in
Boston to discuss the progress of women in academia, suggested their
under-representation might be due to the fact that boys outperform
girls at the highest levels of math and science. Statistically, this
is undeniable.
_That_ I agree with. Gender roles are different genetically.
Oops, everybody is different genetically, except particular kind of
twins. It is more than that.
"I felt I was going to be sick," said biology professor Nancy
Hopkins
of MIT. "My heart was pounding, and my breath was shallow."
"I just couldn't breathe because this kind of bias makes me
physically
ill." Had she not fled from the room, said Hopkins, "I would've
either
blacked out or thrown up."
Looks like she freely admits to severe pathological physiological and
psychiatric reactions to scientific opinions that she doesn't share.
How such a closed-minded and bigoted person can work as a scientist at
the top education institution in the World is beyond me. Maybe,
affirmative action? :-)
I would be glad if it would be so, I am afraid it has more to do with
quasi-Komsomol promotion for political righteousness.
Harvard is apparently home not only to the close-minded, but the
snobbish.
Harvard?!!! Excuse me but the woman in question is from MIT! Harvard is
the home to the President who spoke the truth. Buchanan's mind is
slipping.
No, you just missed that this is (maybe no so successful) attempt at
ironic shot.
VM.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
02 Feb 2005 05:09:44 PM |
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The Closing of the Harvard Mind
by Patrick J. Buchanan
//The point of the joke, of course, is a German aptitude for w=ADar even
Napoleon recognized. "Prussia was hatched from a cannonball,=AD" said
the
Corsican. After conquering Prussia, he led his officers to t=ADhe tomb
of
Frederick the Great, who had fought France, Austria and Russ=ADia all at
once. "Hats off, gentlemen," said Napoleon. "If he were aliv=ADe, we
should not be here." //
Buchanan is not very smart. The example that he chose proves the
opposite: that the French are better at war than the Prussians. Just
read what he himself admits: "After conquering Prussia..." Yes, the
French under Napoleon defeated and conquered the Prussians, even though
the latter were being helped by the rest of Europe: Russia, Austria,
England.
The only good thing about German war abilities that we can derive from
the above paragraph is that one Prussian person - Frederick the Great -
was a great military leader. But probably not as great as Napoleon
himself, who was Italian.
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| User: "MirTopolskiRexPrez" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 04:37:30 AM |
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wrote:
The Closing of the Harvard Mind
by Patrick J. Buchanan
//The point of the joke, of course, is a German aptitude for war
even Napoleon recognized. "Prussia was hatched from a cannonball,"
said the Corsican. After conquering Prussia, he led his officers to
the tomb of Frederick the Great, who had fought France, Austria
and Russia all at once. "Hats off, gentlemen," said Napoleon.
"If he were alive, we should not be here." //
Buchanan is not very smart. The example that he chose proves the
opposite: that the French are better at war than the Prussians. Just
read what he himself admits: "After conquering Prussia..." Yes, the
French under Napoleon defeated and conquered the Prussians, even though
the latter were being helped by the rest of Europe: Russia, Austria,
England.
The only good thing about German war abilities that we can derive from
the above paragraph is that one Prussian person - Frederick the Great -
was a great military leader. But probably not as great as Napoleon
himself, who was Italian.
He was a Corsican - this makes a difference. Yes, old Prussian state was
based on militarism, but it lacked nationalism. Napoleon combined both
"isms" and therefore proved superior to Freddie in war biz. But sci
militarism culminated later, in Prussia, in Clausewitz's theoretical
works. Still later, Hitler's generals tried to improve Napoleon's
approach and his record, but failed (cuz Hitler was too lazy to read
Clausie carefully enough).
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 12:45:43 PM |
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MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
=ADNapoleon himself, who was Italian.
He was a Corsican - this makes a difference
Are Corsican Italians different from other Italians? Are they more
militaristic?
Yes, old Prussi=ADan state was
based on militarism, but it lacked nationalism. Napoleon com=ADbined
both
"isms" and therefore proved superior to Freddie in war biz.
On the contrary. Prussia has always been a nationalist country. On th
eother hand, Napolean's wars were conducted on the internationalist
basis: to bring "the fruits of the French Revolution" to other
countries still ruled by "despotic monarchs".
Still later, Hitler's generals tried to improve Napol=ADeon's
approach and his record, but failed (cuz Hitler was too lazy=AD to
read
Clausie carefully enough).
Even more trivially, Hitler didn't learn the most basic lesson from
Napoleon's experience: that Russia has severe winters. Only an ignorant
idiot would invade Russia at the end of June and hope he would conquer
the whole country, including Siberia, before November brings severe
colds. And the fact that Hitler didn't even bother to supply warm
winter clothing to his soldiers is also luaghable. Just like
Napoleon...
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| User: "Wieland der Schmied" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 03:50:59 PM |
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wrote:
MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
Napoleon himself, who was Italian.
He was a Corsican - this makes a difference
Are Corsican Italians different from other Italians? Are they more
militaristic?
Yes, old Prussian state was
based on militarism, but it lacked nationalism. Napoleon combine
depends on the time you look at
d
both
"isms" and therefore proved superior to Freddie in war biz.
btw. did you know, "Old Fritz" was an atheist, and supervisor of
all protestant bishops in his kingdom
On the contrary. Prussia has always been a nationalist country. On th
I'd think this is impossible, because nationalism developed in
Europe during the 18th century, before that the thinking was centered
pretty much on the ruler.
eother hand, Napolean's wars were conducted on the internationalist
basis: to bring "the fruits of the French Revolution" to other
countries still ruled by "despotic monarchs".
well, Napoleon used ideologies as they suited him, nationalism
to make the French follow him and to pay for his wars, and
international ideas to control the other countries.
Seems like this approach has been copied a lot.
Still later, Hitler's generals tried to improve Napoleon's
approach and his record, but failed (cuz Hitler was too lazy to
read
Clausie carefully enough).
lately a read a remark (by Engelmann), that Clausewitz was
misinterpreted a lot. His teacher was Scharnhorst, the
supervisor of all Prussian military schools and reformer
of the Prussian army, and definitly not someone you would call
a militarist. Several years ago I lived in Bordenau near Hannover,
and there is a small Scharnhorst museum, because Scharnhorst was
born there.
From from what I saw in this museum, I got the impression that
Scharnhost was thinking about the military in rather modern
ways, in that the military has a serving function to the political
authorities, rather than the old thinking (If the diplomats don't
get the job done, the military takes over).
And Engelmann takes the position, that Clausewitz should be interpreted
as a modern thinker who follows Scharnhorst's ideas and did not
propagate militarism.
Of course, many Prussian officers who studied in Clausewitz's
war school (he was Scharnhorst's successor) must have got it all wrong.
Even more trivially, Hitler didn't learn the most basic lesson from
Napoleon's experience: that Russia has severe winters. Only an ignorant
idiot would invade Russia at the end of June and hope he would conquer
the whole country, including Siberia, before November brings severe
colds. And the fact that Hitler didn't even bother to supply warm
winter clothing to his soldiers is also luaghable. Just like
Napoleon...
well, stupidity, ideology, and agressively going to war often go hand in
hand
Wieland the Smith,
EAC: herder of the trolls
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| User: "MirTopolskiRexPrez" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 04:02:32 PM |
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wrote:
MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
Napoleon himself, who was Italian.
He was a Corsican - this makes a difference
Are Corsican Italians different from other Italians? Are they more
militaristic?
Like Sicilians, Corsicans are genetically different from Italians. They
are to Italians proper like, say, Chechens to Georgians.
Yes, old Prussian state was
based on militarism, but it lacked nationalism. Napoleon combined
both "isms" and therefore proved superior to Freddie in war biz.
On the contrary. Prussia has always been a nationalist country.
No. Originally it has no nation at all. In racial terms, old Prussians
were somewhere between Slavs and Balts.
On the other hand, Napolean's wars were conducted on the
internationalist basis: to bring "the fruits of the French
Revolution" to other countries still ruled by "despotic monarchs".
But it was *French* revolution and *French* Grand Nacion - don't you
know? Actually, Napoleon invented "grand" nationalism that later
infested most of Europe.
Still later, Hitler's generals tried to improve Napoleon's
approach and his record, but failed (cuz Hitler was too lazy to
read Clausie carefully enough).
Even more trivially, Hitler didn't learn the most basic lesson from
Napoleon's experience: that Russia has severe winters.
Which was stated explicitly by Clausewitz. Actually Clausie analyzed
Napoleon wars in his theory ...
Only an ignorant
idiot would invade Russia at the end of June and hope he would conquer
the whole country, including Siberia, before November brings severe
colds. And the fact that Hitler didn't even bother to supply warm
winter clothing to his soldiers is also luaghable. Just like
Napoleon...
Q.E.D.
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| User: "D.K." |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
02 Feb 2005 08:39:01 PM |
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In article <1107385295.006259.305830@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, wrote:
And who, before 1948, would have thought that Jews would make the best
and most disciplined soldiers in the World?
I read that Jews were highly overrepresented among Heros of Soviet
Union during WWII!
DK
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| User: "Holod Morozilnikov" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 01:15:50 AM |
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"D.K." <dk@no.email.thankstospam.net> wrote in message
news:cts2s6$f95$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
In article <1107385295.006259.305830@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
anzaurres@hotmail.com wrote:
And who, before 1948, would have thought that Jews would make the best
and most disciplined soldiers in the World?
I read that Jews were highly overrepresented among Heros of Soviet
Union during WWII!
DK
The Khazars were pretty decent warriors, actually.
It is a shame they converted to Judaism, the good news is many are
ditching it and are returning to Ukraine.
It doesn't take a Khazar "Jew", very long to realize, that Jews are up to no
good.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 12:56:52 PM |
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Holod Morozil'nikov wrote
"D.K." <d...@no.email.thankstospam.net> wrote
anzaur...@hotmail.com wrote:
And who, before 1948, would have thought that Jews would m=ADake the
best
and most disciplined soldiers in the World?
I read that Jews were highly overrepresented among Heros o=ADf Soviet
Union during WWII!
As a percentage of the population, ethnic Jews were second highest
among Heros o=ADf o=ADf Soviet Union after ethnic Russians. Tha's what
Gorbachev-era Soviet statistics claimed.
The Khazars were pretty decent warriors, actually.
It is a shame they converted to Judaism,
Wrong. Khazars became great warriors _after_ they came under Jewish
rule. BTW, it is not certain that the Khazar ruling elite converted to
Judaism. Another theory is that Khazaria attracted "real" Jews from
Persia and other places and these Jews came to rule Khazaria. These
same authors claim that whenever Russian forces came to attack Khazar
cities, non-Jewish population and soldiers fled and the Jews were the
only ones that remained to fight for their and their families' lives.
the good news is ma=ADny are ditching it and are returning to Ukraine.
They are? When? Now? There has not been a single Khazar sighted
anywhere in the World for many centuries.
And why "returning to Ukraine"? Khazars never lived in Ukraine. They
lived between the Caspian and Black Seas.
It doesn't take a Khazar "Jew", very long to realize, that J=ADews are
up to no good.
Not only you are an antisemite but you are also an ignoramus, which
goes hand-in-hand.
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| User: "Kevin Brook" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
03 Feb 2005 06:27:45 PM |
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wrote:
Khazars became great warriors _after_ they came under Jewish rule.
Actually, the Khazars were great warriors both before AND after they
adopted Judaism. They fought valiantly against the Arabs prior to the
conversion, and against the Rus in the early 10th century, as well as
against other enemies and marauders. They also kept the wild Pechenegs
in check for a time.
BTW, it is not certain that the Khazar ruling elite converted to
Judaism.
On the contrary, it is a well established fact. These facts are
presented in my article "Khazars and Judaism" in the Encyclopaedia of
Judaism, vol. 4 (Brill, 2003) on pages 1821-1832. The Khazars are
definitely mainly of Turkic origin.
Another theory is that Khazaria attracted "real" Jews from
Persia and other places and these Jews came to rule Khazaria.
This is not a theory but a fact. Middle Eastern Jews did come to
Khazaria, but they did not displace the Khazar tribe. They simply
mixed with each other.
These same authors claim that whenever Russian forces came to
attack Khazar cities, non-Jewish population and soldiers fled
and the Jews were the only ones that remained to fight for their
and their families' lives.
This is a baseless charge. The Christians and Muslims in Khazaria also
defended their homeland. Perhaps you did not hear of the Arsiya
(Orsiyya) warriors, who were Muslims serving the Khazar king in the
capital city of Atil. The Arsiya had a big problem with the Rus since
the Rus were killing their Muslim brethren along the Caspian coast.
And so the Arsiya went and did something about it, and they won a
victory over the Rus.
There has not been a single Khazar sighted anywhere in the World
for many centuries.
Yes there have. They are among the Russian Jews and Kumyks. One of
the modern Russian Jewish families that remembers they are Khazars has
the surname Khazarinsky / Kosarin. I know many Khazar families.
And why "returning to Ukraine"? Khazars never lived in Ukraine. They
lived between the Caspian and Black Seas.
The Khazars certainly did live in eastern Ukraine as well as the
Crimea. You are not familiar with the latest research. The Khazars
had a district called Kozare in Kiev, and there are other historical
and archaeological traces of them from Ukraine.
Best wishes,
Kevin A. Brook
Author, "The Jews of Khazaria" and many other works listed at
http://www.khazaria.com/brookcv.html
.
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| User: "Holod Morozilnikov" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
04 Feb 2005 08:10:14 AM |
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"Kevin Brook" <kuzarim@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1107476865.194129.26980@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
anzaurres@hotmail.com wrote:
Khazars became great warriors _after_ they came under Jewish rule.
Actually, the Khazars were great warriors both before AND after they
adopted Judaism. They fought valiantly against the Arabs prior to the
conversion, and against the Rus in the early 10th century, as well as
against other enemies and marauders. They also kept the wild Pechenegs
in check for a time.
BTW, it is not certain that the Khazar ruling elite converted to
Judaism.
On the contrary, it is a well established fact. These facts are
presented in my article "Khazars and Judaism" in the Encyclopaedia of
Judaism, vol. 4 (Brill, 2003) on pages 1821-1832. The Khazars are
definitely mainly of Turkic origin.
Another theory is that Khazaria attracted "real" Jews from
Persia and other places and these Jews came to rule Khazaria.
This is not a theory but a fact. Middle Eastern Jews did come to
Khazaria, but they did not displace the Khazar tribe. They simply
mixed with each other.
These same authors claim that whenever Russian forces came to
attack Khazar cities, non-Jewish population and soldiers fled
and the Jews were the only ones that remained to fight for their
and their families' lives.
This is a baseless charge. The Christians and Muslims in Khazaria also
defended their homeland. Perhaps you did not hear of the Arsiya
(Orsiyya) warriors, who were Muslims serving the Khazar king in the
capital city of Atil. The Arsiya had a big problem with the Rus since
the Rus were killing their Muslim brethren along the Caspian coast.
And so the Arsiya went and did something about it, and they won a
victory over the Rus.
There has not been a single Khazar sighted anywhere in the World
for many centuries.
Yes there have. They are among the Russian Jews and Kumyks. One of
the modern Russian Jewish families that remembers they are Khazars has
the surname Khazarinsky / Kosarin. I know many Khazar families.
And why "returning to Ukraine"? Khazars never lived in Ukraine. They
lived between the Caspian and Black Seas.
The Khazars certainly did live in eastern Ukraine as well as the
Crimea. You are not familiar with the latest research. The Khazars
had a district called Kozare in Kiev, and there are other historical
and archaeological traces of them from Ukraine.
Best wishes,
Kevin A. Brook
Author, "The Jews of Khazaria" and many other works listed at
http://www.khazaria.com/brookcv.html
Thanks for the link, I hope anzaurres would appreciate it too.
I am saving it to my archive, in case a "comrade" needs to be sent
to re-education camp in future.;))
Regards
H M
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
04 Feb 2005 01:05:53 PM |
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Kevin,
My information about the alternative theory comes from the following
article:
http://www.sem40.ru/ourpeople/history/13412/
It is in Russian.
------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Brook wrote
anzaur...@hotmail.com wrote:
Khazars became great warriors _after_ they came under Jewish rule.
Actually, the Khazars were great warriors both before AND after they
adopted Judaism. They fought valiantly against the Arabs prior to the
conversion, and against the Rus in the early 10th century, as well as
against other enemies and marauders. They also kept the wild Pechenegs
in check for a time.
BTW, it is not certain that the Khazar ruling elite converted to
Judaism.
On the contrary, it is a well established fact. These facts are
presented in my article "Khazars and Judaism" in the Encyclopaedia of
Judaism, vol. 4 (Brill, 2003) on pages 1821-1832. The Khazars are
definitely mainly of Turkic origin.
Another theory is that Khazaria attracted "real" Jews from
Persia and other places and these Jews came to rule Khazaria.
This is not a theory but a fact. Middle Eastern Jews did come to
Khazaria, but they did not displace the Khazar tribe. They simply
mixed with each other.
These same authors claim that whenever Russian forces came to
attack Khazar cities, non-Jewish population and soldiers fled
and the Jews were the only ones that remained to fight for their
and their families' lives.
This is a baseless charge. The Christians and Muslims in Khazaria also
defended their homeland. Perhaps you did not hear of the Arsiya
(Orsiyya) warriors, who were Muslims serving the Khazar king in the
capital city of Atil. The Arsiya had a big problem with the Rus since
the Rus were killing their Muslim brethren along the Caspian coast.
And so the Arsiya went and did something about it, and they won a
victory over the Rus.
There has not been a single Khazar sighted anywhere in the World
for many centuries.
Yes there have. They are among the Russian Jews and Kumyks. One of
the modern Russian Jewish families that remembers they are Khazars has
the surname Khazarinsky / Kosarin. I know many Khazar families.
And why "returning to Ukraine"? Khazars never lived in Ukraine. They
lived between the Caspian and Black Seas.
The Khazars certainly did live in eastern Ukraine as well as the
Crimea. You are not familiar with the latest research. The Khazars
had a district called Kozare in Kiev, and there are other historical
and archaeological traces of them from Ukraine.
Best wishes,
Kevin A. Brook
Author, "The Jews of Khazaria" and many other works listed at
http://www.khazaria.com/brookcv.html
.
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| User: "Kevin Brook" |
|
| Title: Re: American Degeneracy Continues |
05 Feb 2005 01:54:51 AM |
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wrote:
My information about the alternative theory comes from the
following article:
http://www.sem40.ru/ourpeople/history/13412/
It is in Russian.
I have seen Mark Shteynberg's essay before. I don't have time now to
respond in detail to it, but will mention three points:
It specifically says "The Khazars were a peaceful and large tribe of
Turkish origin, and the structure of their statehood came from the
Turks of Central Asia, who ruled them and composed the military and
state elites." The migration of Persian Jews to Khazaria is a separate
phenomenon that is also dealt with by Shteynberg.
Shteynberg says that the military leaders of Khazaria were Jewish.
This is true. But he does not say all the fighting forces were Jewish.
The article discusses foreigners who fought for Khazaria, including
soldiers who had come from Gurjania (I assume he means here the Orsiyya
Muslims from Central Asia).
Later on, he discusses the army led by Baliqchi (General) Pesakh
against the Rus'. Shteynberg claims that the army had "four Jewish
regiments, with thousands of soldiers in each one, and for that era
they were wonderfully equipped and had the best horses." This claim
that there were four regiments, and that all their soldiers were
Jewish, is not documented anywhere, but Shteynberg's own invention.
The Schechter Letter (Cambridge Document) is our sole Khazarian source
about Pesakh's army.
We cannot forget that Khazaria was built by a multitude of people, and
that it was also defended by peoples of many religions.
Thanks for your reply.
Kevin
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