| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"The Black Monk" |
| Date: |
17 Jan 2004 01:56:59 AM |
| Object: |
Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
A Giant Awakens
Iraq's Shi'ites are on the march
by Justin Raimondo
As they gathered in the southern city of Basra, the cry went up from
the crowd of tens of thousands:
"No, no to America! Yes, yes to al-Sistani!"
Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani, the leader of Iraq's
Shi'ites, isn't happy about the Coalition Provisional Authority plan
to hold provincial "caucuses" of their handpicked stooges, who would
then organize a government. Last summer the Ayatollah, spiritual
leader of Iraq's 60-70% majority Shi'ites, issued a fatwa calling for
direct, democratic elections to a constituent assembly, torpedoing an
American scheme to write a Constitution first. Imperial proconsul Paul
Bremer then came up with his caucus plan, which is now effectively
blocked by the Ayatollah's veto.
Undeterred by prudence, Bremer is now launching a campaign to get
Sistani to change his mind, mobilizing his amen corner in the Iraqi
Governing Council and even pushing Kofi Annan to lobby for the caucus
plan. Annan has cited numerous "experts," who all claim that a census
couldn't possibly be taken in time, the security situation is too
tenuous, and giving half a dozen other reasons why the "liberation" of
Iraq just can't mean one person, one vote.
So let's see if I get this straight: the U.S., which went to war to
export "democracy" to Iraq (and the entire Middle East), in defiance
of the UN, is telling the Iraqis that they aren't ready for
self-government – and is now seeking the UN Secretary General's
imprimatur for what amounts to a policy of brazen imperialism. Instead
of elections, a series of elite "caucus" meetings will be held, in
which the neocons, er, um, I mean, the Americans, handpick the voters
– and predetermine the results.
Some "liberation"!
This malarkey about the lack of a reliable census is laughable. The
Americans refused to cooperate with a plan by the Iraqis to take a
census: Nuha Yousef, the Iraqi census director, guaranteed a count by
December. But, as the New York Times reported, the occupation
authorities nixed the plan. CPA spokesman Charles Heatly opined:
"Rushing into a census in this time frame with the security
environment that we have would not give the result that people want."
Translated into plain English, what Heatly means is that a direct
election would yield results that certain people in Washington don't
want. And we can't have that!
It would be funny, but for the tragedy of it: here we have the
pretend-"liberators" of Iraq, preening and posturing as the great
teachers of democratic governance, being taught a lesson in the real
meaning of the principles they supposedly espouse.
For comic relief, we have the "Iraqi Governing Council," appointed by
Imperial Viceroy Bremer, whose role in all this is to make themselves
look like sock-puppets at a carnival show. As the Times reported:
"Informed of the [census] proposal this week, several members of the
governing council who advocated a direct national ballot next June 30
said they were upset that they had not seen it. The Census Bureau said
it had delivered the plan to the Governing Council on Nov. 1, but
apparently it was lost in the bureaucracy."
Oooops! Sorry about that. I guess this just means the elections will
have to be delayed for sometime in the indefinite future, oh, say
around 2005. But I wouldn't count on it. By that time, if this keeps
up, the insurgency will have the members of the "Governing Council" on
a deck of cards, and on the run. Iraq's Shi'ite majority is on the
march – and this means big trouble for the occupiers.
So far, the Shi'ites have stood on the sidelines, waiting for the
chance to take advantage of their majority status and impose an
Islamic "republic" on the rest of the country. Centered in the south,
which has not seen, up until now, the kind of guerrilla violence that
regularly erupts in the infamous "Sunni Triangle," such groups as the
pro-Iranian Badr Brigade and the Supreme Council for the Islamic
Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), have been patient, and so far refrained
from violence – except against Christian merchants who sell alcohol
and other un-Islamic consumer items. The occupiers, up to this point,
have had no serious trouble from SCIRI and allied groups. That could
change rapidly, and dramatically, as the Ayatollah Sistani has pointed
out, if the Americans insist on their caucus plan.
In a Sunday meeting with Sistani, American officials and their Iraqi
protégés ran up against a brick wall. The Ayatollah is holding fast to
his demands that a direct election be held – and that the provisional
government which results should have the power to rule on the question
of a continuing U.S. military presence. And his position has popular
support.
Sistani scotched an earlier move for a made-in-the-USA Constitution,
and the Americans, for all their firepower, can't stop him from
sabotaging this one. Their neat plan to hand over fake "sovereignty"
to their favored collaborators on July 1, all the while settling
comfortably into permanent military bases on Iraqi soil, is running
into some serious problems, even as the insurgency reaches into the
previously peaceful Shi'ite south.
Short of pulverizing the country, or sending all the Ayatollahs off to
Guantanamo – neither of which is an option – Bremer is stymied, and
that's why he's counting on the United Nations and the Arab League to
give the American plan at least a modicum of legitimacy.
Yes, that's right, the UN! You remember those guys, a supposedly
"anti-American" assembly of ingrates and professional bureaucrats, so
loudly disdained by the "unilateralists" in Washington who, at the
time of the invasion, gloried in the Security Council's alleged
irrelevance. Secretary General Annan is cited as saying that he's sure
a census is impossible under the present circumstances, but the idea
that the UN has any legitimacy in Iraq seems rather odd. After all,
isn't this the same organization that enforced a draconian regime of
sanctions on Iraq for over a decade? And now this same UN is saying
it's too early to have a free election.
As Jeffrey Record, a professor at the Strategic Studies Institute,
writes in a U.S. War College monograph, in Iraq we face "irregular
enemies who refuse to quit precisely because they cannot be decisively
defeated." Neither, for the moment, can the occupiers be defeated, as
long as they're willing to expend the troops and treasure. But the
balance of forces could be radically shifting, and when they do, the
U.S. had better be prepared for a fight.
So far, the Americans have come up against those they call
"Saddamists" – by which term is meant followers of Saddam Hussein, not
Oscar Wilde. These "holdouts" and "dead enders" are the "remnants" of
the Ba'athist Party, we are confidently assured, as if the insurgency
is petering out along with the effects of Saddam's reign. Yet attacks
on occupation forces, in terms of ferocity, numbers, and geographical
reach, are increasing. It hardly takes a strategic genius to see that
the fuel of Shi'ite fury spread over this smoldering rebellion will
stoke the fires of resistance – and quite possibly flare up into a
regional conflagration that could bring in Iran, and possibly others.
It was long ago emphatically pointed out in this space that the
decision to go to war with Iraq and occupy the country effectively
delivered Mesopotamia into the hands of the Iranians. Or, at least,
ensured the rise of an Iranian-style Shi'ite fundamentalist regime,
settling the longstanding Iraq-Iran regional tug-of-war decisively in
favor of the latter. The "caucus" farce Bremer unsuccessfully tried to
impose on the Iraqis is a desperate attempt to stave off this result,
at least temporarily, and subordinate the Shia majority to a
multi-cultural "federal" entity presided over by American and British
overseers, a Potemkin Village of Middle Eastern "democracy,"
neocon-style.
The revolt of the Shi'ites threatens to upend the decorative façade of
the New Iraq, elaborately painted by the War Party's public relations
flacks both in and out of government. The whole edifice is slated to
come crashing down just as the curtain opens on "Race for the White
House, 2004." It serves the Grand Old Party right (not that the
Democrats would have done it any differently). They sold their souls
to the neocons, who then sold the White House a bill of goods labeled
"Weapons of Mass Destruction," and "Niger Uranium," outing CIA agents
and smearing their enemies as traitors. Now let the Republicans suffer
the consequences of their Faustian bargain.
What is happening today in Iraq is proof positive of Joshua Marshall's
fascinating thesis, that the whole idea behind the neocons' postwar
plan for Iraq is that there wasn't one. As the subhead of his
Washington Monthly piece put it:
"Chaos in the Middle East is not the Bush hawks' nightmare scenario –
it's their plan."
---------
BM
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 11:30:11 AM |
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--
On 16 Jan 2004 23:56:59 -0800, (The
Black Monk) wrote:
Annan has cited numerous "experts," who all claim that a
census
couldn't possibly be taken in time, the security situation is
too tenuous, and giving half a dozen other reasons why the
"liberation" of Iraq just can't mean one person, one vote.
One person one vote means civil war. Minorities must be
protected from the majority.
An Iraq wide vote for an Iraq wide assembly with unlimited
power leaves Kurds and Sunnis no choice but war.
Sistani's program can only be implemented if Iraq is first
divided.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
Y1nLlrxoyExU6WXgzW1TW12isnBt2UXwwG75uDxt
4LCTZ3A2jM1zmclI5i2XUPnbUEG93VF/csEY7/Gb1
.
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| User: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 03:06:07 PM |
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"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:n3si0017up744l08bo46t0bbmdemhlhse2@4ax.com...
--
On 16 Jan 2004 23:56:59 -0800, (The
Black Monk) wrote:
Annan has cited numerous "experts," who all claim that a
census
couldn't possibly be taken in time, the security situation is
too tenuous, and giving half a dozen other reasons why the
"liberation" of Iraq just can't mean one person, one vote.
One person one vote means civil war. Minorities must be
protected from the majority.
We'll have to change the name of the country to Northern Ireland.
An Iraq wide vote for an Iraq wide assembly with unlimited
power leaves Kurds and Sunnis no choice but war.
Sistani's program can only be implemented if Iraq is first
divided.
Yep. Increasingly, it looks like either the US divides the country or civil
war is the only alternitive.
Thousands more will die because of some old man in Basra with nothing better
to do than stir people's hatred up.
The Kurds want their own country. The Shiites want to impose their will on
everybody else. The Sunnis only want to kill people. Sounds like the only
solution is to divide the country into three new countries.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
Y1nLlrxoyExU6WXgzW1TW12isnBt2UXwwG75uDxt
4LCTZ3A2jM1zmclI5i2XUPnbUEG93VF/csEY7/Gb1
.
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| User: "D. Patterson" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 04:20:04 PM |
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"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote in message
news:3thOb.109338$G04.25405862@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:n3si0017up744l08bo46t0bbmdemhlhse2@4ax.com...
--
On 16 Jan 2004 23:56:59 -0800, (The
Black Monk) wrote:
Annan has cited numerous "experts," who all claim that a
census
couldn't possibly be taken in time, the security situation is
too tenuous, and giving half a dozen other reasons why the
"liberation" of Iraq just can't mean one person, one vote.
One person one vote means civil war. Minorities must be
protected from the majority.
We'll have to change the name of the country to Northern Ireland.
An Iraq wide vote for an Iraq wide assembly with unlimited
power leaves Kurds and Sunnis no choice but war.
Sistani's program can only be implemented if Iraq is first
divided.
Yep. Increasingly, it looks like either the US divides the country or
civil
war is the only alternitive.
Thousands more will die because of some old man in Basra with nothing
better
to do than stir people's hatred up.
The Kurds want their own country. The Shiites want to impose their will on
everybody else. The Sunnis only want to kill people. Sounds like the only
solution is to divide the country into three new countries.
It would take more than three nations. You also have the Christians,
Syrians, etc. etc. etc.
Sistani is plainly attempting to preempt any effort which would keep his
Shiite majority from dominating the other Iraqi minority groups and anyone
who would oppose a theocratic Muslim state.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
Y1nLlrxoyExU6WXgzW1TW12isnBt2UXwwG75uDxt
4LCTZ3A2jM1zmclI5i2XUPnbUEG93VF/csEY7/Gb1
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 10:26:21 PM |
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--
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:20:04 -0800, "D. Patterson"
<proamer@legypt.net> wrote:
It would take more than three nations. You also have the
Christians, Syrians, etc. etc. etc.
The right solution is limits on popular sovereignty. Sistani
has said he will not wear that.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
kt9fAiiPOr2iJ1M02prbt74myFSlI0nhz/d6Gn+C
4gv8V8wolZKtztXrzVpp3FLfExHQHUDCazyUNts87
.
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| User: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 05:31:50 AM |
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"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ek2k009f6cqbtnevp0evgmjvjl6msn3tan@4ax.com...
--
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:20:04 -0800, "D. Patterson"
<proamer@legypt.net> wrote:
It would take more than three nations. You also have the
Christians, Syrians, etc. etc. etc.
The right solution is limits on popular sovereignty. Sistani
has said he will not wear that.
....but he does wear crotchless underwear.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
kt9fAiiPOr2iJ1M02prbt74myFSlI0nhz/d6Gn+C
4gv8V8wolZKtztXrzVpp3FLfExHQHUDCazyUNts87
.
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| User: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 05:07:55 PM |
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"D. Patterson" <proamer@legypt.net> wrote in message
news:100jd8p4cah7nd8@corp.supernews.com...
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote in message
news:3thOb.109338$G04.25405862@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:n3si0017up744l08bo46t0bbmdemhlhse2@4ax.com...
--
On 16 Jan 2004 23:56:59 -0800, (The
Black Monk) wrote:
Annan has cited numerous "experts," who all claim that a
census
couldn't possibly be taken in time, the security situation is
too tenuous, and giving half a dozen other reasons why the
"liberation" of Iraq just can't mean one person, one vote.
One person one vote means civil war. Minorities must be
protected from the majority.
We'll have to change the name of the country to Northern Ireland.
An Iraq wide vote for an Iraq wide assembly with unlimited
power leaves Kurds and Sunnis no choice but war.
Sistani's program can only be implemented if Iraq is first
divided.
Yep. Increasingly, it looks like either the US divides the country or
civil
war is the only alternitive.
Thousands more will die because of some old man in Basra with nothing
better
to do than stir people's hatred up.
The Kurds want their own country. The Shiites want to impose their will
on
everybody else. The Sunnis only want to kill people. Sounds like the
only
solution is to divide the country into three new countries.
It would take more than three nations. You also have the Christians,
Syrians, etc. etc. etc.
Sistani is plainly attempting to preempt any effort which would keep his
Shiite majority from dominating the other Iraqi minority groups and anyone
who would oppose a theocratic Muslim state.
OK. So give the Shiites Basra and the marshes. Let them have their
theocratic state. Eventually they will figure out, like Iran, that it ain't
so great. I say there's a point at which it makes no sense having Americans
die to help these idiots. Let's just get out and let the savages tear each
other apart.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
Y1nLlrxoyExU6WXgzW1TW12isnBt2UXwwG75uDxt
4LCTZ3A2jM1zmclI5i2XUPnbUEG93VF/csEY7/Gb1
.
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| User: "Gabrielle Rapagnetta" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 05:29:28 PM |
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"Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
OK. So give the Shiites Basra and the marshes. Let them have their
theocratic state. Eventually they will figure out, like Iran, that it ain't
so great. I say there's a point at which it makes no sense having Americans
die to help these idiots. Let's just get out and let the savages tear each
other apart.
Help the idiots? I thought you believed that there were WMDs there.
As I recall, you had "known with certainty" that there are WMDs in
Iraq. You also knew that Al Qaeda was in Baghdad.
So just to make sure I got this right--
Search for WMDs: FAILED
Search for Al Qaeda: FAILED
Bring democracy to Iraq: FAILED
Nation building: FAILED
And now you want to "just get out"? How do you sleep at night?
By the way, Iran had a democratic government nearly a century ago.
And again just 50 years ago. The Iranians have never wanted a
theocratic state. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why their
previous democracies failed.
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 05:48:39 PM |
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On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:29:28 -0800, Gabrielle Rapagnetta
<n0spam.cut-out@gmx.net> wrote:
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
OK. So give the Shiites Basra and the marshes. Let them have their
theocratic state. Eventually they will figure out, like Iran, that it ain't
so great. I say there's a point at which it makes no sense having Americans
die to help these idiots. Let's just get out and let the savages tear each
other apart.
Help the idiots? I thought you believed that there were WMDs there.
As I recall, you had "known with certainty" that there are WMDs in
Iraq. You also knew that Al Qaeda was in Baghdad.
A prime example of the difference between belief and knowledge.
So just to make sure I got this right--
Search for WMDs: FAILED
Search for Al Qaeda: FAILED
Bring democracy to Iraq: FAILED
Nation building: FAILED
And now you want to "just get out"? How do you sleep at night?
By the way, Iran had a democratic government nearly a century ago.
And again just 50 years ago. The Iranians have never wanted a
theocratic state. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why their
previous democracies failed.
We wouldn't allow them to have a popular government that sold the oil
to the highest bidder in order to benefit its citizenry. So we
organised the coup that replaced Mossadeq with the Shah, and followed
up by giving him and his secret police (the SAVAK) everything he
needed to stay in power.
http://fas.org/irp/world/iran/savak/
http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/savak.html
This is the _real_ reason the Iranians hate(d) us and called us the
Great Satan. Not because they're evil Moslem fundamentalists. But you
won't get an administration of either party to admit this publicly
because it would mean owning up to half a century of lying to the
country.
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 06:05:08 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8uhj00l5cjln5b3h6orbep6kgc1v89r6jg@4ax.com...
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:29:28 -0800, Gabrielle Rapagnetta
<n0spam.cut-out@gmx.net> wrote:
So just to make sure I got this right--
Search for WMDs: FAILED
Search for Al Qaeda: FAILED
Bring democracy to Iraq: FAILED
Nation building: FAILED
And now you want to "just get out"? How do you sleep at night?
By the way, Iran had a democratic government nearly a century ago.
And again just 50 years ago. The Iranians have never wanted a
theocratic state. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why their
previous democracies failed.
We wouldn't allow them to have a popular government that sold the oil
to the highest bidder in order to benefit its citizenry. So we
organised the coup that replaced Mossadeq with the Shah, and followed
up by giving him and his secret police (the SAVAK) everything he
needed to stay in power.
http://fas.org/irp/world/iran/savak/
http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/savak.html
This is the _real_ reason the Iranians hate(d) us and called us the
Great Satan. Not because they're evil Moslem fundamentalists. But you
won't get an administration of either party to admit this publicly
because it would mean owning up to half a century of lying to the
country.
Nice to see someone knows their history !
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Mark D. @home.com" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 07:10:49 PM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:400a766d$0$2431$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.
Nice to see someone knows their history !
I agree. Especially when one considers the *sociological gradient* of
institutionalised cowardice, unremembering ignorance, and sheer damn
*stupidity* that he'll have had to climb *alone* in order to know what he
knows and say it out loud.
Whoever he is, I'll buy this 'Christopher A. Lee' a drink any day...
M.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
20 Jan 2004 07:39:39 PM |
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On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 01:10:49 -0000, "Mark D." <M@rk.D_is @home.com>,
Message ID: <v8GOb.6646$YV1.4174@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net> wrote in
alt.atheism;
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:400a766d$0$2431$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.
Nice to see someone knows their history !
I agree. Especially when one considers the *sociological gradient* of
institutionalised cowardice, unremembering ignorance, and sheer damn
*stupidity* that he'll have had to climb *alone* in order to know what he
knows and say it out loud.
Whoever he is, I'll buy this 'Christopher A. Lee' a drink any day...
Mr. Lee is a British subject living and working in the U.S..
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Mark D. @home.com" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 07:05:16 PM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:
We wouldn't allow them to have a popular government that sold the oil
to the highest bidder in order to benefit its citizenry. So we
organised the coup that replaced Mossadeq with the Shah, and followed
up by giving him and his secret police (the SAVAK) everything he
needed to stay in power.
http://fas.org/irp/world/iran/savak/
http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/savak.html
This is the _real_ reason the Iranians hate(d) us and called us the
Great Satan. Not because they're evil Moslem fundamentalists. But you
won't get an administration of either party to admit this publicly
because it would mean owning up to half a century of lying to the
country.
If I recall correctly, what made the Iranians suddenly so keen to take all
those *American hostages* (back in the days of Jimmy Carter) was nothing
less than the fact that *the US was so fond of that murdering tyrannical
***** the (ex-)Shah* that they even let him *travel to the States for
cancer treatment* - for 'humanitarian reasons'!!!
M.
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| User: "Josh Dougherty" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 05:21:39 PM |
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"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote in message
news:ffjOb.111175$G04.26078264@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
"D. Patterson" <proamer@legypt.net> wrote in message
news:100jd8p4cah7nd8@corp.supernews.com...
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote in message
news:3thOb.109338$G04.25405862@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:n3si0017up744l08bo46t0bbmdemhlhse2@4ax.com...
--
On 16 Jan 2004 23:56:59 -0800, (The
Black Monk) wrote:
Annan has cited numerous "experts," who all claim that a
census
couldn't possibly be taken in time, the security situation is
too tenuous, and giving half a dozen other reasons why the
"liberation" of Iraq just can't mean one person, one vote.
One person one vote means civil war. Minorities must be
protected from the majority.
We'll have to change the name of the country to Northern Ireland.
An Iraq wide vote for an Iraq wide assembly with unlimited
power leaves Kurds and Sunnis no choice but war.
Sistani's program can only be implemented if Iraq is first
divided.
Yep. Increasingly, it looks like either the US divides the country or
civil
war is the only alternitive.
Thousands more will die because of some old man in Basra with nothing
better
to do than stir people's hatred up.
The Kurds want their own country. The Shiites want to impose their
will
on
everybody else. The Sunnis only want to kill people. Sounds like the
only
solution is to divide the country into three new countries.
It would take more than three nations. You also have the Christians,
Syrians, etc. etc. etc.
Sistani is plainly attempting to preempt any effort which would keep his
Shiite majority from dominating the other Iraqi minority groups and
anyone
who would oppose a theocratic Muslim state.
OK. So give the Shiites Basra and the marshes. Let them have their
theocratic state. Eventually they will figure out, like Iran, that it
ain't
so great. I say there's a point at which it makes no sense having
Americans
die to help these idiots. Let's just get out and let the savages tear each
other apart.
.... another Liberator heard from.
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| User: "John McCarthy" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
21 Jan 2004 02:09:45 AM |
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A key question is the extent to which people who are culturally and
historically Shiites are actually followers of Sistani. Naturally, he
claims to represent all Shiites. However, Baghdad is a major city and
not a tribal enclave, and we would expect its politics to be
different. At least we can hope that the Iraqis are not really
determined to kill each other.
We haven't heard of TV stations full of denunciations of the other
groups the way the Serbian TV stations regarded all Moslems as
followers of Khomeini.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
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| User: "Jim Voege" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 05:27:38 PM |
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"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote in message
news:3thOb.109338$G04.25405862@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:n3si0017up744l08bo46t0bbmdemhlhse2@4ax.com...
--
On 16 Jan 2004 23:56:59 -0800, (The
Black Monk) wrote:
Annan has cited numerous "experts," who all claim that a
census
couldn't possibly be taken in time, the security situation is
too tenuous, and giving half a dozen other reasons why the
"liberation" of Iraq just can't mean one person, one vote.
One person one vote means civil war. Minorities must be
protected from the majority.
We'll have to change the name of the country to Northern Ireland.
An Iraq wide vote for an Iraq wide assembly with unlimited
power leaves Kurds and Sunnis no choice but war.
Sistani's program can only be implemented if Iraq is first
divided.
Yep. Increasingly, it looks like either the US divides the country or
civil
war is the only alternitive.
Thousands more will die because of some old man in Basra with nothing
better
to do than stir people's hatred up.
The Kurds want their own country. The Shiites want to impose their will on
everybody else. The Sunnis only want to kill people. Sounds like the only
solution is to divide the country into three new countries.
You don't think some sort of federal system would work?
Jim
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 10:27:57 PM |
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--
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:27:38 -0500, "Jim Voege"
<jfvoege@NOSPAM.ca> wrote:
You don't think some sort of federal system would work?
A federal system will only work if Sistani lets it work, which
at present does not seem very likely.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
rX26DenPgAsbKwtODCMNozLGNAFzQYuX9k8rAcAV
4j7ZvuJdNf22qY+cFHknABZhc16q9TqnulprM8ZfB
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 07:47:12 PM |
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On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:27:38 -0500, "Jim Voege" <jfvoege@NOSPAM.ca>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote in message
news:3thOb.109338$G04.25405862@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
The Kurds want their own country. The Shiites want to impose their will on
everybody else. The Sunnis only want to kill people. Sounds like the only
solution is to divide the country into three new countries.
You don't think some sort of federal system would work?
Only if the people wanted it - and it's obvious that many (most?) of
them don't.
--
"I can't activate two neurons simultaneously, and I vote"
- The theistic majority
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "David Thornley" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 09:14:59 PM |
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In article <0cpj001ir4934lei1a54cm8orbb9dffnqo@Pern.rk>,
Al Klein <ehxong@bcgbayvar.arg> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:27:38 -0500, "Jim Voege" <jfvoege@NOSPAM.ca>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote in message
news:3thOb.109338$G04.25405862@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
The Kurds want their own country. The Shiites want to impose their will on
everybody else. The Sunnis only want to kill people. Sounds like the only
solution is to divide the country into three new countries.
You don't think some sort of federal system would work?
Only if the people wanted it - and it's obvious that many (most?) of
them don't.
Does anybody have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving democracy behind
as we leave Iraq?
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
david@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
17 Jan 2004 10:34:11 PM |
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--
David Thornley
Does anybody have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving democracy
behind as we leave Iraq?
One cannot write off the plan as a total failure yet, but
things are not looking good.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
RIVpy1/M9qsZKmeq03yz9+5n+icl4DxDGFISia4i
4f0OvdYqcnfKoimLCD1zdT5kTcVsd/THcL6+WmVG5
.
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| User: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 05:44:40 AM |
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"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:tq2k00hd34sp4vuise6jno9som3te9kfs9@4ax.com...
--
David Thornley
Does anybody have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving democracy
behind as we leave Iraq?
One cannot write off the plan as a total failure yet, but
things are not looking good.
Right now a high stakes game of "chicken" is being played by Sistani. In a
way he has placed himself into a corner. The reason Bremer is going to the
UN is to get Annan to recommend what the US is already saying. Sistani
doesn't want anything to look like it was dictated by the US or the CPA. The
CPA is looked at as American puppets and despised by Iraqis. If the UN says
that a particuliar procedure must be followed in reference to elections. It
makes it look like it's not a US hand-me-down and is therefore acceptable.
It's a face saving manuever. Supposedly Sistani does not want an Iran style
theocracy.
Sistani is actually being a little foolish. He is willing to compromise just
to ensure the hand-over on June 30th. If you really have the long term
welfare of Iraq in mind, I wouldn't think one would have a problem with
waiting a little longer and getting it right.
After 6/30, the US can claim that security is now largely up to the Iraqis
and quickly draw down its troop numbers. At that point the US mil will be
for defending against agression from the outside. Iraqi police will have
responsibility for day-to-day security in the cities. That means the US can
draw down the troops and put what's left out of harm's way.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
RIVpy1/M9qsZKmeq03yz9+5n+icl4DxDGFISia4i
4f0OvdYqcnfKoimLCD1zdT5kTcVsd/THcL6+WmVG5
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 12:18:46 PM |
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--
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:44:40 GMT, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
Right now a high stakes game of "chicken" is being played by
Sistani. In a way he has placed himself into a corner. The
reason Bremer is going to the UN is to get Annan to recommend
what the US is already saying. Sistani doesn't want anything
to look like it was dictated by the US or the CPA. The CPA is
looked at as American puppets and despised by Iraqis. If the
UN says that a particuliar procedure must be followed in
reference to elections. It makes it look like it's not a US
hand-me-down and is therefore acceptable. It's a face saving
manuever. Supposedly Sistani does not want an Iran style
theocracy.
He does not want theocracy, but he demands Rosseau style
democracy, which, as Napoleon argued, was the primary cause of
the French terror.
If Bin Laden owes more to Heidegger than the koran, Sistani
seems to owe more to Rousseau than the koran.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
OBgnRK6K+kyEL96yHckj0qtFNnDOl5cmq+Hle3jt
4Glv7To7hUp9UmQhIB4X6ipmWE7GAeLemKhcFM4lU
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 07:33:17 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:44:40 GMT, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
<themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote:
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:tq2k00hd34sp4vuise6jno9som3te9kfs9@4ax.com...
--
David Thornley
Does anybody have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving democracy
behind as we leave Iraq?
One cannot write off the plan as a total failure yet, but
things are not looking good.
Right now a high stakes game of "chicken" is being played by Sistani. In a
way he has placed himself into a corner. The reason Bremer is going to the
UN is to get Annan to recommend what the US is already saying. Sistani
doesn't want anything to look like it was dictated by the US or the CPA. The
CPA is looked at as American puppets and despised by Iraqis. If the UN says
that a particuliar procedure must be followed in reference to elections. It
makes it look like it's not a US hand-me-down and is therefore acceptable.
It's a face saving manuever. Supposedly Sistani does not want an Iran style
theocracy.
Sistani is actually being a little foolish. He is willing to compromise just
to ensure the hand-over on June 30th. If you really have the long term
welfare of Iraq in mind, I wouldn't think one would have a problem with
waiting a little longer and getting it right.
If you really had the long term interest of Iraq in mind, you wouldn't
have gone to war against it and lied to the whole world inclusing your
own citizenry. And killed thousands of Iraqis in the process.
They don't want you there.
In their minds ANYTHING AT ALL is better than US occupation.
After 6/30, the US can claim that security is now largely up to the Iraqis
and quickly draw down its troop numbers. At that point the US mil will be
for defending against agression from the outside. Iraqi police will have
responsibility for day-to-day security in the cities. That means the US can
draw down the troops and put what's left out of harm's way.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
RIVpy1/M9qsZKmeq03yz9+5n+icl4DxDGFISia4i
4f0OvdYqcnfKoimLCD1zdT5kTcVsd/THcL6+WmVG5
.
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| User: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 07:43:25 AM |
|
|
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:dk2l00h5p0i8ok13is5bpp9vbjrvoua4ad@4ax.com...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:44:40 GMT, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
<themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote:
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:tq2k00hd34sp4vuise6jno9som3te9kfs9@4ax.com...
--
David Thornley
Does anybody have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving democracy
behind as we leave Iraq?
One cannot write off the plan as a total failure yet, but
things are not looking good.
Right now a high stakes game of "chicken" is being played by Sistani. In
a
way he has placed himself into a corner. The reason Bremer is going to
the
UN is to get Annan to recommend what the US is already saying. Sistani
doesn't want anything to look like it was dictated by the US or the CPA.
The
CPA is looked at as American puppets and despised by Iraqis. If the UN
says
that a particuliar procedure must be followed in reference to elections.
It
makes it look like it's not a US hand-me-down and is therefore
acceptable.
It's a face saving manuever. Supposedly Sistani does not want an Iran
style
theocracy.
Sistani is actually being a little foolish. He is willing to compromise
just
to ensure the hand-over on June 30th. If you really have the long term
welfare of Iraq in mind, I wouldn't think one would have a problem with
waiting a little longer and getting it right.
If you really had the long term interest of Iraq in mind, you wouldn't
have gone to war against it and lied to the whole world inclusing your
own citizenry. And killed thousands of Iraqis in the process.
They don't want you there.
In their minds ANYTHING AT ALL is better than US occupation.
Yeah right. In Russia they still have demomstrations where people glorify
Stalin. In Iraq, I don't see many, if any, people calling for the return of
Saddam.
After 6/30, the US can claim that security is now largely up to the
Iraqis
and quickly draw down its troop numbers. At that point the US mil will be
for defending against agression from the outside. Iraqi police will have
responsibility for day-to-day security in the cities. That means the US
can
draw down the troops and put what's left out of harm's way.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
RIVpy1/M9qsZKmeq03yz9+5n+icl4DxDGFISia4i
4f0OvdYqcnfKoimLCD1zdT5kTcVsd/THcL6+WmVG5
.
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| User: "David Thornley" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
20 Jan 2004 09:19:30 AM |
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In article <14wOb.119127$G04.29773213@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
Buffy the Vampire Slayer <themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> wrote:
Yeah right. In Russia they still have demomstrations where people glorify
Stalin. In Iraq, I don't see many, if any, people calling for the return of
Saddam.
Stalin's been safely dead for a *long* time. Saddam's just been captured.
Give the Iraqis time. Some of them will start glorifying Saddam
eventually.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
david@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
.
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| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
20 Jan 2004 09:41:58 PM |
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--
On 20 Jan 2004 15:19:30 GMT, (David Thornley) wrote:
Stalin's been safely dead for a *long* time. Saddam's just
been captured.
Give the Iraqis time. Some of them will start glorifying
Saddam eventually.
Already have. At a recent protest, the protestors chanted
"Saddam is in our hearts, Saddam is in our blood", to which the
police chanted back "Saddam is in our jail"
Similarly, look how all those theoretically left wing
intellectuals are still in love with Napoleon, seemingly
scarcely noticing that Napoleon undid the French Revolution
that they theoretically supported.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
fdeA/n8Xf8SRCZ29fJgW9tToeYZo1MxMCmKpnF3p
46QUXkrwd7TFrnPFsOy0ajvm+DaNa7Cyzx42Eqsys
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 02:49:38 PM |
|
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On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:43:25 GMT, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
<themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Yeah right. In Russia they still have demomstrations where people glorify
Stalin. In Iraq, I don't see many, if any, people calling for the return of
Saddam.
But you do see people "calling for" the withdrawal of all Americans.
--
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under-
stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can
comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of
humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
- 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 02:59:09 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:43:25 GMT, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
<themadcow@eatmorebeef.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Yeah right. In Russia they still have demomstrations where people glorify
Stalin. In Iraq, I don't see many, if any, people calling for the return of
Saddam.
But you do see people "calling for" the withdrawal of all Americans.
And others "calling for" the Americans to stay until their work is done.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
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| User: "Winnie the Pooh" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 08:16:13 AM |
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I wish to make it clear that the opinions expressed by Christopher Lee are
his own, not mine.
- Winnie
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
18 Jan 2004 02:49:38 PM |
|
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On 18 Jan 2004 03:14:59 GMT, (David Thornley) posted
in alt.atheism:
Does anybody have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving democracy behind
as we leave Iraq?
I have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving Iraq. Why should our
soldiers die for people who hate them? Just to make Halliburton rich?
--
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under-
stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can
comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of
humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
- 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Americans Bring democracy to Iraq |
20 Jan 2004 07:41:44 PM |
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On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:49:38 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>,
Message ID: <a5sl00ts016tnmkdc9r5010frdjpfsaqkf@Pern.rk> wrote in
alt.atheism;
On 18 Jan 2004 03:14:59 GMT, (David Thornley) posted
in alt.atheism:
Does anybody have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving democracy behind
as we leave Iraq?
I have warm fuzzy feelings about leaving Iraq. Why should our
soldiers die for people who hate them? Just to make Halliburton rich?
And Bushco.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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