| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jane" |
| Date: |
14 Nov 2007 10:28:29 PM |
| Object: |
An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
I stumbled upon an amazing deconversion story from Jacobus Gericke,
which he included in Appendix One of his 2003 PhD thesis, "Does Yahweh
Exist?" It's well worth reading!
http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Are you a Christian? Do you consider yourself to be a true Christian
who sincerely believes in God in such a way that He is what matters
most to you in this life? Do you truly believe that the Bible is the
infallible and inerrant Word of God? Are you completely convinced that
the credibility of Christian faith depends on its veracity in all
matters?
If so, what would you consider as the pinnacle of disillusionment?
Something that could not possibly happen but, if it did, it would
shatter your reality completely. How would you feel if everything that
ever mattered to you; everything that gave happiness, meaning and
purpose to your existence should somehow prove to be an illusion? How
would you feel if you discovered that you were nowhere closer to
understanding and relating to ultimate reality that some savage who
lived and died with a mind saturated by myth and superstition? How
would you feel if you were a happy born-again Christian who, by some
sick twist of fate, happen to discover that the God you believed in
does not really exist? Do you have any idea what it feels like to be a
"died-again" Christian?
The remainder is here: http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Jane
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| User: "Ghod" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
15 Nov 2007 04:31:23 PM |
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"Jane" <janepeters13041939@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:9fc42d11-699d-4451-95d3-1b2d8da92cc2@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
: I stumbled upon an amazing deconversion story from Jacobus Gericke,
: which he included in Appendix One of his 2003 PhD thesis, "Does
Yahweh
: Exist?" It's well worth reading!
:
: http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
:
: Are you a Christian? Do you consider yourself to be a true Christian
: who sincerely believes in God in such a way that He is what matters
: most to you in this life? Do you truly believe that the Bible is the
: infallible and inerrant Word of God? Are you completely convinced
that
: the credibility of Christian faith depends on its veracity in all
: matters?
:
: If so, what would you consider as the pinnacle of disillusionment?
: Something that could not possibly happen but, if it did, it would
: shatter your reality completely. How would you feel if everything
that
: ever mattered to you; everything that gave happiness, meaning and
: purpose to your existence should somehow prove to be an illusion?
How
: would you feel if you discovered that you were nowhere closer to
: understanding and relating to ultimate reality that some savage who
: lived and died with a mind saturated by myth and superstition? How
: would you feel if you were a happy born-again Christian who, by some
: sick twist of fate, happen to discover that the God you believed in
: does not really exist? Do you have any idea what it feels like to be
a
: "died-again" Christian?
:
:
: The remainder is here: http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
This guy is a SLOW fucking learner.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
15 Nov 2007 02:02:00 AM |
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Jane wrote:
I stumbled upon an amazing deconversion story from Jacobus Gericke,
which he included in Appendix One of his 2003 PhD thesis, "Does Yahweh
Exist?" It's well worth reading!
http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Are you a Christian? Do you consider yourself to be a true Christian
who sincerely believes in God in such a way that He is what matters
most to you in this life? Do you truly believe that the Bible is the
infallible and inerrant Word of God? Are you completely convinced that
the credibility of Christian faith depends on its veracity in all
matters?
If so, what would you consider as the pinnacle of disillusionment?
Something that could not possibly happen but, if it did, it would
shatter your reality completely. How would you feel if everything that
ever mattered to you; everything that gave happiness, meaning and
purpose to your existence should somehow prove to be an illusion? How
would you feel if you discovered that you were nowhere closer to
understanding and relating to ultimate reality that some savage who
lived and died with a mind saturated by myth and superstition? How
would you feel if you were a happy born-again Christian who, by some
sick twist of fate, happen to discover that the God you believed in
does not really exist? Do you have any idea what it feels like to be a
"died-again" Christian?
The remainder is here: http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Jane
Interesting. The more I read things like this, the more I think that
religion is indeed a kind of formalised mental illness. I feel sorry
for this person, and it underlines why people will cling on to their
religion so hard, even in the face of the utter lack of evidence for
gods.
Steve
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
15 Nov 2007 04:41:53 AM |
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On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:02:00 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
Jane wrote:
I stumbled upon an amazing deconversion story from Jacobus Gericke,
which he included in Appendix One of his 2003 PhD thesis, "Does Yahweh
Exist?" It's well worth reading!
http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Are you a Christian? Do you consider yourself to be a true Christian
who sincerely believes in God in such a way that He is what matters
most to you in this life? Do you truly believe that the Bible is the
infallible and inerrant Word of God? Are you completely convinced that
the credibility of Christian faith depends on its veracity in all
matters?
If so, what would you consider as the pinnacle of disillusionment?
Something that could not possibly happen but, if it did, it would
shatter your reality completely. How would you feel if everything that
ever mattered to you; everything that gave happiness, meaning and
purpose to your existence should somehow prove to be an illusion? How
would you feel if you discovered that you were nowhere closer to
understanding and relating to ultimate reality that some savage who
lived and died with a mind saturated by myth and superstition? How
would you feel if you were a happy born-again Christian who, by some
sick twist of fate, happen to discover that the God you believed in
does not really exist? Do you have any idea what it feels like to be a
"died-again" Christian?
The remainder is here: http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Jane
Interesting. The more I read things like this, the more I think that
religion is indeed a kind of formalised mental illness. I feel sorry
for this person, and it underlines why people will cling on to their
religion so hard, even in the face of the utter lack of evidence for
gods.
The concept of irrational faith as a form of mental parasite is a
wonderfully explanatory concept.
(This is a form of mental illness)
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| User: "Jane" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
15 Nov 2007 02:42:52 PM |
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Thanks for each of your comments. I think there is a value in making
public this commonly felt pain at having your most intimate beliefs
and worldview shattered. While it is horrible for the individual, it
can be very helpful for those who wrongly imagine they are going
through it alone.
Jane
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| User: "sleepykit" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
15 Nov 2007 12:23:00 AM |
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Jane wrote:
I stumbled upon an amazing deconversion story from Jacobus Gericke,
which he included in Appendix One of his 2003 PhD thesis, "Does Yahweh
Exist?" It's well worth reading!
http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Are you a Christian? Do you consider yourself to be a true Christian
who sincerely believes in God in such a way that He is what matters
most to you in this life? Do you truly believe that the Bible is the
infallible and inerrant Word of God? Are you completely convinced that
the credibility of Christian faith depends on its veracity in all
matters?
If so, what would you consider as the pinnacle of disillusionment?
Something that could not possibly happen but, if it did, it would
shatter your reality completely. How would you feel if everything that
ever mattered to you; everything that gave happiness, meaning and
purpose to your existence should somehow prove to be an illusion? How
would you feel if you discovered that you were nowhere closer to
understanding and relating to ultimate reality that some savage who
lived and died with a mind saturated by myth and superstition? How
would you feel if you were a happy born-again Christian who, by some
sick twist of fate, happen to discover that the God you believed in
does not really exist? Do you have any idea what it feels like to be a
"died-again" Christian?
The remainder is here: http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Jane
One can only hope that he found someone to help him through what sounds like
a very trying time.
--
sleepykit
"Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is
serious." - Brendan Gill
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
14 Nov 2007 11:54:37 PM |
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On Nov 14, 10:28 pm, Jane <janepeters13041...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
I stumbled upon an amazing deconversion story from Jacobus Gericke,
which he included in Appendix One of his 2003 PhD thesis, "Does Yahweh
Exist?" It's well worth reading!
http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Are you a Christian? Do you consider yourself to be a true Christian
who sincerely believes in God in such a way that He is what matters
most to you in this life? Do you truly believe that the Bible is the
infallible and inerrant Word of God? Are you completely convinced that
the credibility of Christian faith depends on its veracity in all
matters?
If so, what would you consider as the pinnacle of disillusionment?
Something that could not possibly happen but, if it did, it would
shatter your reality completely. How would you feel if everything that
ever mattered to you; everything that gave happiness, meaning and
purpose to your existence should somehow prove to be an illusion? How
would you feel if you discovered that you were nowhere closer to
understanding and relating to ultimate reality that some savage who
lived and died with a mind saturated by myth and superstition? How
would you feel if you were a happy born-again Christian who, by some
sick twist of fate, happen to discover that the God you believed in
does not really exist? Do you have any idea what it feels like to be a
"died-again" Christian?
The remainder is here:http://www.cityside.org.nz/node/340
Jane
Thanks for that. These sorts of stories always interest me.
While I'm not sure I took the death of God very well, I am glad I was
spared what this man describes.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
26 Nov 2007 07:04:26 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:28:29 -0800 (PST), Jane
<janepeters13041939@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
I stumbled upon an amazing deconversion story from Jacobus Gericke,
which he included in Appendix One of his 2003 PhD thesis, "Does Yahweh
Exist?" It's well worth reading!
[]
Sent email to Mr. Gericke;
Subject: Doctoral Thesis
Dear Mr. Gericke;
I was alerted to, and read, 'Autobiography.'
As you stated; Reading/investigating is dangerous. You've found it
can also be painful. From the path you've taken, I've doubts it has
lessened four years later. A child who fervently believes in the
commercialized Santa Claus has the same pain and mental 'defenses'
against the fact Santa is fictional. Emotion, not reason.
I, and others, recognize the defensive tactics as 'mental toddlerism.'
Your 'awakening' is what I call 'becoming an adult.' And, yes, it is
painful. One is always working with insufficient data and can only do
their best. One's 'best' may not seem to be very good. That happens.
So be it.
You've more than likely moved on past a couple of points in
'Autobiography.' If I may, I'd still like to touch on them for a
moment.
"If so, what would you consider as the pinnacle of disillusionment?
Something that could not possibly happen but, if it did, it would
shatter your reality completely. How would you feel if everything that
ever mattered to you; everything that gave happiness, meaning and
purpose to your existence should somehow prove to be an illusion? How
would you feel if you discovered that you were nowhere closer to
understanding and relating to ultimate reality that some savage who
lived and died with a mind saturated by myth and superstition?"
"happiness, meaning;" such is a slave mentality. Metaphorically, being
a human footstool generates 'meaning?'
'Purpose.' I shake my head on this one, for many reasons. This
implies a scripted role of such unimportance that is mindboggling.
What if one's 'purpose' was; as an infant to burp milk on a persons
shoulder to, perhaps, interrupt someone elses train of thought?
Then what? Since the persons 'purpose' was 'fulfilled' does that mean
s/he should be killed?
'Ultimate' is a meaningless word generated so to add stature to the
next one. Reality is. One who considers the world they encounter day
in and day out to not be 'reality' is quickly disillusioned after
being turned into roadkill via a heavilly loaded speeding lorry.
'Savage.' Yes, I'd consider bronze age characters and settings to be
just that. Saturated by 'myth and superstition?' Such bronze age
traits unfortunately remain quite popular in these early days of the
'space age.'
""How would you feel if you were a happy born-again Christian who, by
some sick twist of fate, happen to discover that the God you believed
in does not really exist?""
Yes, there are those who are very happy in their fantasy worlds.
'Sick twist of fate.' Hmmm. "Divine Plan' comes to mind as well as
others such as whatever 'God' does is, by definition, good.
""Do you have any idea what it feels like to be a “died-again”
Christian?""
Sure. You've returned to your original status of being without
theism.
"From this perspective, the myth of Eden gains new meaning. You have
eaten from the tree of knowledge. Your eyes were opened. You saw
that...that you were naked. Something has died inside of you. You are
banished from Eden. You no longer have any access to the tree of life.
Life east of Eden is thoroughly miserable. You feel as though the rest
of your days will be spent as an outcast wandering aimlessly, like
Cain."
You are no longer 'of the body' {Matrix 1 awakening and of another
movie the name of which escapes me.
"If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do? Vanity
of vanities, it is all vanity. You are hanging on a cross of the mind,
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” No one can see God and
live..."
Of course its all vanity. Vanity, posturing, ego, and terminal
self-centredness. There isn't anyone or anything which would not be
sacrificed to grab the 'gold ring' which entitles the person to
Eternal Life[tm].
"In the same way I was both oddly amused and horrified at beholding
the mechanics of other cults from the outside, so too, I have now come
to see the Church in the same light. The leaders in the church may be
sincere and believe they are communicating God’s will but it is very
difficult from a outsider’s point of view not to perceive everything
as brainwashing and indoctrination based on superstitious and
discriminating ideologies."
Of course! A particular person's theistic ideology is no different
than all the other ones-but it is *theirs.* The 'us' versus 'them'
factor.
"Focussing on, or seriously contemplating just what exactly happened
to me, what the implications are and how 1 now relate to the world out
there drives me crazy,"
Of course, your 'sand castle' foundation was washed away by the rising
tide. You've no longer the 'magic pixie dust' and lost the 'compass'
to set your course for 'the second star towards morning.'
""Repression is definitely compulsory if I am to survive."
Pretending you're still immersed in the malevolent faerie tale will
simply make things worse for you.
"Maybe I should taper off. Going cold turkey after years of being a
god-addict is unthinkable. 1 will never make it. I still have trouble
admitting my problem."
That you're unequipped to deal with the real world? It can seem
overwhelming since it all has become apparent in a relative instant
instead of a little here, a little there.
""I still have trouble talking about the experience. After all this
time I cannot bring myself to say it out loud, to admit that I am an
athei..."
Yes, once again you are without theism. Without the Tooth Fairie,
Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Deity. Which means it is all personal
responsibility.
"Looking back today, I can point to many shortcomings in those books.
Yet at that time, though they did not provide me with satisfactory
answers to my subsequent theological questions, these writings of
James Barr initiated within me a process that eventually led me to
recognise what was wrong with conservative theology. Completely
against my own desire I had to admit that, on some points, the
antifundamentalist critiques were valid. What shook me up the most was
the dreadful realisation that the Bible that I thought I new may not
be the perfect Word of God that my fundamentalist ideology made it out
to be. Moreover, as every fundamentalist knows, if the Bible becomes
suspect, everything becomes in doubt..."
That's the problem with an 'all or nothing' binary mindset. It is all
a metaphorical 'house of cards.' If a breeze pops up....
"I desperately wanted to remain conservative but was willing to
reluctantly follow the truth wherever it might lead me. Surely, since
God is truth, the quest for it could never lead me away from God,
could it? I dared not think about the prospect; nothing would make me
lose faith completely."
See? Emotion, not reason. Just like children finding out Santa Claus
isn't real.
"Maybe I should have expected all of this. After all, the
religio-cultural context certainly stacked the odds against a peaceful
transition from Sunday school layperson to scientific biblical
theologian to minister of a congregation."
Deliberately so, and by concious design.
"During the eleven years of Sunday school in the Dutch Reformed
Church, one is largely exposed to the Bible in the form of paraphrased
Bible stories, censored and reinterpreted to be amenable to
conservative reformed sensibilities. In the sermons, the underlying
message about the nature and contents of the biblical text is wholly
fundamentalist. As children, no one ever taught us about the findings
and contents of critical scholarship."
Of course not. That's exactly why they raised 'Faith' [Gullibility
based on induced from birth terror] to a 'virtue.' 'Sheep' exist to
be utilized by the Shephard as s/he wills. If they're taught to think
then it is a decrease in financial status as well as amount of
personal power wielded.
""This negligence may, however, be understandable. Communicating the
latest results of biblical critical research would surely upset many
people who could make life very difficult for anyone not living as
though this were seventeenth century Europe. It may be downright
dangerous for those who know more than they should to rock the boat
and come out as ex-fundamentalists.""
Follow the money.
"Of course, if all one reads is conservative evangelical apologetics
against higher criticism, one will come to believe that there are no
serious problems about the belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word
of God. However, neither will one really understand what is actually
involved. If, however, one does delve into the details of the critical
research itself rather than merely noting its findings, one soon
discovers that the Bible is not exactly the inerrant, infallible and
dogma supporting book the Church proclaims it to be."
Of course not. The actions of the church institution demonstrate the
lies as does the Bible itself.
"How soul wrenching it is to hear others speak of how the text totally
changed their lives when it was obvious that they too had completely
misunderstood the actual meaning the author intended to convey. Alas,
I did not have the cheek to point out that the emperor had no clothes
and that it was all a farce kept intact by a socially constructed
illusion based on years of systematic and unwitting socialisation,
indoctrination and well meant brainwashing."
Peer pressure. Well meant brainwashing? I disagree.
"Even God seemed to have become a three-letter word."
A meaningless three letter string, yes.
"Reality has become a white empty canvas messed up by running
watercolours. My world has melted. I have graduated from the faculty
of mythology."
Your blinders have vanished.
"What is truth? I thought that the truth would make me free but not
that free. Coming from a background where I was completely happy with
conservative evangelical theology and spirituality, the discovery of
the problems generated by biblical criticism and the philosophy of
religion was like dying all over again. 1 sure wish there was a local
chapter of Fundamentalists Anonymous or something like "The Fellowship
of Died-Again Christians”. Trying to find one’s way through the
half-life that was now my fate can be terrifying. ..absolutely, bloody
terrifying. I am confused and do not know what to believe about
anything anymore."
Once again, by maleovent design of the superstition industry and peer
pressure. You're so deep into it you may never 'sort yourself out.'
Decades of in-depth viral mental programming take their toll. You do
have an advantage, though. The internet is a gigantic world-spanning
library. In my time, all that was available was my 'bootstraps.'
"I had lost reality. It was not merely the death of someone or
something within the greater scheme of things. The entire scheme of
things of things itself seemed awry and was slipping away like water
through my clutching fingers. The experience of being a born again
conservative evangelical biblical Christian who can no longer believe
in an inerrant Bible or in any of those cherished theological dogmas
he once held dear can only be described as a daymare."
No, you lost your delusions and gazed upon reality for the first time.
"The thought that the world at large is a vast impersonal, unanimated
environment with no concern for one’s hopes, fears, dreams,
expectation, needs, desires, ambition and expectations can be
immensely disconcerting. The realisation that one is a wholly
contingent microbe fighting for survival in a hostile world where no
built in metanarrative exists is frightening. Coming to terms with a
reality where there is no God and where, if other people do not give a
damn, nothing and nobody will – now that is scary!"
Not as scary as the 'loving' 'eternal torture' scenario.
"Maybe being an atheist would not be as unbearable as I fear it might
be. After all, as a new born baby I used to be an atheist. If nobody
told me about God, would I even have known or cared whether He existed
or not? And was I not always an atheist in the relative sense of not
believing in the deities of other religions or the versions of God as
constructed by other denominations of my own religion? Would it really
be impossible to go on with life if I were to add only one more God to
what was already a long list of unbelievable deities?"
Exactly. You got over; The Tooth Faerie, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus.
You'll get over this, too.
"There is nothing more to say except to finally acknowledge that "sh**
happens”. My heart and my mind can find no rest. I cannot rest in
peace. I rest in pieces. Reality has shattered."
No. Your induced delusions have shattered on the cardboard shores of
reality.
No one's ever claimed life to be either easy nor fair.
Regards,
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: An Amazing and Eloquent Deconversion Story |
15 Nov 2007 04:56:54 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:28:29 -0800 (PST), Jane <janepeters13041939@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
Do you have any idea what it feels like to be a
"died-again" Christian?
Yes.
--
The spelling like any opinion stated here
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Kill Filed by David Morgan, and his Mam.
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