| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Gary DeWaay" |
| Date: |
05 Nov 2004 11:50:38 AM |
| Object: |
An atheist church? |
What if I started a church that practiced and studied atheism? Would I be
able to get all the perks? The tax breaks, and as the pastor, not having
to pay SS, etc.
It would be practicing faith, because there clearly is no evidence either
way that god exists, so it takes faith to be an atheist.
I would discuss my views pertaining to my faith, and discuss the myths of
the bible, and I'd pass the plate and take donations that would cover the
expenses of the church and my salary, same as any church.
What are the laws for a church to be recognized?
Pardon if this has been discussed before.
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
05 Nov 2004 12:34:24 PM |
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"Gary DeWaay" wrote:
What if I started a church that practiced and studied atheism? Would I be
able to get all the perks? The tax breaks, and as the pastor, not having to
pay SS, etc.
It would be practicing faith, because there clearly is no evidence either way
that god exists, so it takes faith to be an atheist.
I would discuss my views pertaining to my faith, and discuss the myths of the
bible, and I'd pass the plate and take donations that would cover the expenses
of the church and my salary, same as any church.
What are the laws for a church to be recognized?
Pardon if this has been discussed before.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Don't mean to bust your bubble Gary, but its been done.
Look up Universalism.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
"As Benjamin Franklin left the State House in
Philadelphia on the closing day of the
Constitutional Convention, a woman asked
him what kind of government the statesmen
had given America. Franklin replied:
'A republic, Madame, if you can keep it.'
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
07 Nov 2004 07:08:46 PM |
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Gary DeWaay <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1bf57968678a2d66989ac2@news.midco.net>...
What if I started a church that practiced and studied atheism?
Nothing to practise or study.
8-)
But a church for atheists - has been done before.
They can practice and study *living well* without consideration of God
or deamons.
Would I be
able to get all the perks? The tax breaks, and as the pastor, not having
to pay SS, etc.
Yup.
It would be practicing faith, because there clearly is no evidence either
way that god exists, so it takes faith to be an atheist.
Pure gibberish.
If you don't believe in "God" and don't desperately *want* to believe
in God - are not "searchging" for God - then no faith required - just
get on with dealing with reality.
Mark.
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
07 Nov 2004 08:12:37 AM |
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Gary DeWaay <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1bf57968678a2d66989ac2@news.midco.net>...
What if I started a church that practiced and studied atheism? Would I be
able to get all the perks? The tax breaks, and as the pastor, not having
to pay SS, etc.
It would be practicing faith, because there clearly is no evidence either
way that god exists, so it takes faith to be an atheist.
I would discuss my views pertaining to my faith, and discuss the myths of
the bible, and I'd pass the plate and take donations that would cover the
expenses of the church and my salary, same as any church.
What are the laws for a church to be recognized?
Pardon if this has been discussed before.
It's hasn't because it doesn't make sense.
~IAin
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
05 Nov 2004 10:05:37 PM |
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Gary DeWaay wrote:
What if I started a church that practiced and studied atheism?
Lets read all the scriptures from our non-exsistant gods..........
Ok now let get out there and try to live our lives in that image!!
Would I be able to get all the perks? The tax breaks, and as the
pastor, not having to pay SS, etc.
A Church is a non-profit (not prophet) organization. Pastors are
considered self employed and do have to pay both halves of the social
security tax (employers pay 1/2 of it for you). Their parsonages and
such and housing allowances are part of their taxable income.
It would be practicing faith, because there clearly is no evidence
either way that god exists, so it takes faith to be an atheist.
Tipping you hat already? Come on!!!!!
I would discuss my views pertaining to my faith, and discuss the
myths of the bible,
Why? If so, why just the bible? Why not all the other ***** religous
writtings out there?
and I'd pass the plate and take donations that
would cover the expenses of the church and my salary, same as any
church.
Um. I left my change in my other suit.
What are the laws for a church to be recognized?
There are forms for the IRS to file for non-profit status, you can
request a letter of exemption (a formal certificate). There is no
barrier for any churches to be recognized. You just have to be a
non-profit organization to qualify for the tax exemptions.
(One of my co-workers helped found a new congregation "church" that
split off from the Lutheran Church of the Missouri Synod. It was after
the recent convention this summer they, in his words, adopted
"heterodox" resolutions and the "Prayer for America" uproar, which was
considered breaking the first commandment since it included religous
prayer with Muslims, and other non-christians.)
Pardon if this has been discussed before.
Fatman
--
No I am not an EAC Commando......There is no such thing.......I am a
temporary janitor filling in for Pete.
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
07 Nov 2004 08:13:00 PM |
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Fatman's wisdom:
Gary DeWaay wrote:
What if I started a church that practiced and studied atheism?
Lets read all the scriptures from our non-exsistant gods..........
Ok now let get out there and try to live our lives in that image!!
Would I be able to get all the perks? The tax breaks, and as the
pastor, not having to pay SS, etc.
A Church is a non-profit (not prophet) organization. Pastors are
considered self employed and do have to pay both halves of the social
security tax (employers pay 1/2 of it for you).
Are you sure on this? My brother is a pastor, and I thought he could opt
out of SS.
Their parsonages and
such and housing allowances are part of their taxable income.
It would be practicing faith, because there clearly is no evidence
either way that god exists, so it takes faith to be an atheist.
Tipping you hat already? Come on!!!!!
Huh?
I would discuss my views pertaining to my faith, and discuss the
myths of the bible,
Why? If so, why just the bible? Why not all the other ***** religous
writtings out there?
Because it is so popular here? Because there are tons of people that know
little about it besides what they are taught in sunday school?
and I'd pass the plate and take donations that
would cover the expenses of the church and my salary, same as any
church.
Um. I left my change in my other suit.
But my church would be FUN! I'd have the NFL package on after the
service, fer instance. BYO beer.
What are the laws for a church to be recognized?
There are forms for the IRS to file for non-profit status, you can
request a letter of exemption (a formal certificate). There is no
barrier for any churches to be recognized. You just have to be a
non-profit organization to qualify for the tax exemptions.
(One of my co-workers helped found a new congregation "church" that
split off from the Lutheran Church of the Missouri Synod. It was after
the recent convention this summer they, in his words, adopted
"heterodox" resolutions and the "Prayer for America" uproar, which was
considered breaking the first commandment since it included religous
prayer with Muslims, and other non-christians.)
Thanx for the info.
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
.
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 07:03:43 AM |
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Gary DeWaay wrote:
Fatman's wisdom:
Gary DeWaay wrote:
What if I started a church that practiced and studied atheism?
Lets read all the scriptures from our non-exsistant gods..........
Ok now let get out there and try to live our lives in that image!!
Would I be able to get all the perks? The tax breaks, and as the
pastor, not having to pay SS, etc.
A Church is a non-profit (not prophet) organization. Pastors are
considered self employed and do have to pay both halves of the
social security tax (employers pay 1/2 of it for you).
Are you sure on this? My brother is a pastor, and I thought he could
opt out of SS.
Opting out is not the same as not having to pay. Saying one doesn't
have to pay may lead someone to believe they are still entitled to
benefits. I have a relative who is a retired Michigan State officer who
doesn't receive any S.S. benefits because he never payed anything into
it.
Their parsonages and
such and housing allowances are part of their taxable income.
It would be practicing faith, because there clearly is no evidence
either way that god exists, so it takes faith to be an atheist.
Tipping you hat already? Come on!!!!!
Huh?
You gave a false representation of being "without theism". It takes no
faith to have no gods. You seem to be indicating there is a Christian
God that is being denied. I am not going get into an argument over lack
of belief is a belief, lack of faith is faith.
I would discuss my views pertaining to my faith, and discuss the
myths of the bible,
Why? If so, why just the bible? Why not all the other *****
religous writtings out there?
Because it is so popular here? Because there are tons of people that
know little about it besides what they are taught in sunday school?
There are quite a few Muslims in Michigan, where I am from. They also
believe in the same god (in the broad sense).
and I'd pass the plate and take donations that
would cover the expenses of the church and my salary, same as any
church.
Um. I left my change in my other suit.
But my church would be FUN! I'd have the NFL package on after the
service, fer instance. BYO beer.
I go and watch the University of Michigan play in the "Big House" in
person. It is much more fun. It is like a church in some ways.
Sometimes you can hear 110,000 people groan "Jesus Christ!!!".
What are the laws for a church to be recognized?
There are forms for the IRS to file for non-profit status, you can
request a letter of exemption (a formal certificate). There is no
barrier for any churches to be recognized. You just have to be a
non-profit organization to qualify for the tax exemptions.
(One of my co-workers helped found a new congregation "church" that
split off from the Lutheran Church of the Missouri Synod. It was
after the recent convention this summer they, in his words, adopted
"heterodox" resolutions and the "Prayer for America" uproar, which
was considered breaking the first commandment since it included
religous prayer with Muslims, and other non-christians.)
Thanx for the info.
Fatman
--
"Once again decent citizens will be able to enter this house of
worship, kneel down in front of a nearly-naked man hanging from a
wooden apparatus by a series of gruesome body piercings, and engage in
their bizarre practices of ritualized blood-drinking and cannibalism
without being assaulted by graphic images of attractive young women
with bare breasts."-- A. Whitney Brown, "The Daily Show"
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."--Delos B.
McKown, PhD, US professor, philosopher, author, former clergyman
.
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 08:18:50 AM |
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Fatman's wisdom:
Tipping you hat already? Come on!!!!!
Huh?
You gave a false representation of being "without theism". It takes no
faith to have no gods.
Only if one is under the pretense that believing something doesn't exist
without any proof, doesn't require faith.
I don't see how this can be, and I don't see why atheists here get their
underwear in a bunch about it.
You seem to be indicating there is a Christian
God that is being denied.
No, I am saying there is no proof either way.
I am not going get into an argument over lack
of belief is a belief, lack of faith is faith.
It is obvious this makes atheists uncomfortable.
Does anyone know why? And please, if you think I am theist and planning a
sneak attack here, Google up something I wrote called "My Sunday Morning
Sermon".
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 08:21:04 AM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf93c44a861b797989ad7@news.midco.net...
Fatman's wisdom:
Tipping you hat already? Come on!!!!!
Huh?
You gave a false representation of being "without theism". It takes no
faith to have no gods.
Only if one is under the pretense that believing something doesn't exist
without any proof, doesn't require faith.
I don't see how this can be, and I don't see why atheists here get their
underwear in a bunch about it.
You seem to be indicating there is a Christian
God that is being denied.
No, I am saying there is no proof either way.
I am not going get into an argument over lack
of belief is a belief, lack of faith is faith.
It is obvious this makes atheists uncomfortable.
Does anyone know why? And please, if you think I am theist and planning a
sneak attack here, Google up something I wrote called "My Sunday Morning
Sermon".
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 08:25:14 AM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf93c44a861b797989ad7@news.midco.net...
Fatman's wisdom:
Tipping you hat already? Come on!!!!!
Huh?
You gave a false representation of being "without theism". It takes no
faith to have no gods.
Only if one is under the pretense that believing something doesn't exist
without any proof, doesn't require faith.
Well, speaking for myself only, I don't believe in god (s) because I don't
see any evidence to show that they exist.
Does that mean that I know for a fact that they don't? Of course not. I
would never say "There is no god!" because I don't know that for a fact.
However, without evidence, I cannot conclusively believe in he/she/it/them.
No faith involved.
I don't see how this can be, and I don't see why atheists here get their
underwear in a bunch about it.
snip
It is obvious this makes atheists uncomfortable.
Primarily because we don't care for people dropping in here and telling us
what we believe or don't believe - or that we have faith and we know we
don't.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 08:42:24 AM |
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Robibnikoff's wisdom:
Only if one is under the pretense that believing something doesn't exist
without any proof, doesn't require faith.
Well, speaking for myself only, I don't believe in god (s) because I don't
see any evidence to show that they exist.
Does that mean that I know for a fact that they don't? Of course not. I
would never say "There is no god!" because I don't know that for a fact.
I have the exact same belief.
However, without evidence, I cannot conclusively believe in he/she/it/them.
No faith involved.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=faith
"Faith: b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof"
I don't see how this can be, and I don't see why atheists here get their
underwear in a bunch about it.
snip
It is obvious this makes atheists uncomfortable.
Primarily because we don't care for people dropping in here and telling us
what we believe or don't believe - or that we have faith and we know we
don't.
I guess I'm trying to figure out how this all fits together here.
If the only way a person can be an atheist is to refuse that any faith is
involved in a belief that has no proof either way, I can understand why
this is such a touchy subject.
It is not very logical.
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong with
that?
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 08:54:27 AM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf941bd56dff8c2989ad9@news.midco.net...
sniop
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists, which is what I think
you're trying to do.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 09:06:40 AM |
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Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
which is what I think
you're trying to do.
--
I have honest questions and am greeted with insults and people that refuse
to explain their POV.
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 09:23:26 AM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9477c1be3ac37989adb@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong
with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 10:00:39 AM |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:23:26 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9477c1be3ac37989adb@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong
with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
He can't tell the difference.
.
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 04:56:33 PM |
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Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong
with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
I just don't believe in them.
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 06:08:39 PM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9b598e0700ca989adf@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong
with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
I just don't believe in them.
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 06:51:26 AM |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:08:39 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9b598e0700ca989adf@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong
with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
I just don't believe in them.
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
He knows better than you do, what your position actually is.
What he still doesn't grasp is that gods are somebody else's premise
that doesn't even apply to us, and that he's inventing positions for
us as though they did.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 07:04:58 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:u8f1p05froafre5l5ai4qhb0cqahh6el2i@4ax.com...
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:08:39 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9b598e0700ca989adf@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's
wrong
with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns
don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
I just don't believe in them.
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
He knows better than you do, what your position actually is.
D'oh! :)
What he still doesn't grasp is that gods are somebody else's premise
that doesn't even apply to us, and that he's inventing positions for
us as though they did.
Why he doesn't understand that this pisses people off is beyond me. Oh
well.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
11 Nov 2004 07:29:49 PM |
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On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:04:58 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:u8f1p05froafre5l5ai4qhb0cqahh6el2i@4ax.com...
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:08:39 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9b598e0700ca989adf@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's
wrong
with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns
don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
I just don't believe in them.
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
He knows better than you do, what your position actually is.
D'oh! :)
What he still doesn't grasp is that gods are somebody else's premise
that doesn't even apply to us, and that he's inventing positions for
us as though they did.
Why he doesn't understand that this pisses people off is beyond me. Oh
well.
All evidence indicates he's fully aware it does and he's doing it
intentionally. His troll status was spotlit with his first post and
confirmed many times since.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 06:43:22 PM |
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Robibnikoff's wisdom:
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact. I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
I just don't believe in them.
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
--
Nope.
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 07:30:03 AM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9cea6c14ee956989aea@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
Because not all atheists believe that god(s) don't exist for a fact.
I
happen to be one of them. Do you know for a fact that leprechauns
don't
exist or do you just not believe in them?
I just don't believe in them.
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
--
Nope.
So, does that mean you're going to stop telling atheists how/what they
believe or don't believe?
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 08:28:56 AM |
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Robibnikoff's wisdom:
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
--
Nope.
So, does that mean you're going to stop telling atheists how/what they
believe or don't believe?
--
When have I done that? I knew Usenet is territorial, but this is
ridiculous.
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 08:44:44 AM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfa9023b9f4cf05989af5@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
Right - And that's the same way I feel about god(s).
Now, was that so hard? :)
--
Nope.
So, does that mean you're going to stop telling atheists how/what they
believe or don't believe?
--
When have I done that? I knew Usenet is territorial, but this is
ridiculous.
Have you already forgotten your claim that it takes faith to not believe in
something?
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Gary DeWaay" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 04:49:54 PM |
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Robibnikoff's wisdom:
So, does that mean you're going to stop telling atheists how/what they
believe or don't believe?
--
When have I done that? I knew Usenet is territorial, but this is
ridiculous.
Have you already forgotten your claim that it takes faith to not believe in
something?
--
I offered my opinion of FAITH and we debated it. If this constitutes
telling someone what they believe, I apologize.
--
Gary
Are we feeling united yet?
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 07:11:08 PM |
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"Gary DeWaay" <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfb05911ece4f8c989afa@news.midco.net...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
So, does that mean you're going to stop telling atheists how/what they
believe or don't believe?
--
When have I done that? I knew Usenet is territorial, but this is
ridiculous.
Have you already forgotten your claim that it takes faith to not believe
in
something?
--
I offered my opinion of FAITH and we debated it. If this constitutes
telling someone what they believe, I apologize.
Alrighty then :)
--
--------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 07:38:10 AM |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:06:40 -0600, Gary DeWaay
<dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote:
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
which is what I think
you're trying to do.
--
I have honest questions and am greeted with insults and people that refuse
to explain their POV.
If Everyone is jumping down your throat for your 'honest questions'
perhaps the fault lays with YOU. I mean, it's not as if we all have
meetings together or even know each other outside of this
newsgroup.... we don't all decide on a response only after confering
with fellow atheists.
If you're getting an overall poor reception here, look WITHIN yourself
as to why.
James, Seattle
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
11 Nov 2004 07:30:24 PM |
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:38:10 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:06:40 -0600, Gary DeWaay
<dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote:
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
which is what I think
you're trying to do.
--
I have honest questions and am greeted with insults and people that refuse
to explain their POV.
If Everyone is jumping down your throat for your 'honest questions'
perhaps the fault lays with YOU. I mean, it's not as if we all have
meetings together or even know each other outside of this
newsgroup.... we don't all decide on a response only after confering
with fellow atheists.
If you're getting an overall poor reception here, look WITHIN yourself
as to why.
You really can't expect a troll to take responsibility for anything.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 09:13:26 AM |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:06:40 -0600, Gary DeWaay
<dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote:
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong with
that?
Nothing, but that doesn't apply to most atheists,
Ok, everybody sez this. Please explain why.
We already have done. Several times.
You are inventing positions for us, based on premises that don't even
apply outside the theist's paradigm.
We're people who aren't theist. That's all.
"God" doesn't mean the same to us as it means to theists (and you). It
is merely somebody else's religious belief.
In exactly the same time Zeus, Mithras, Odin, Thor and all the others
are to everybody else including Christians. Apart from those who
believe in those deities with as much sincerety, certainty,
justification etc as Christians do in theirs.
It's a belief. That's all.
When you understand that people see it in those terms all your
difficulties should disappear.
which is what I think
you're trying to do.
--
I have honest questions and am greeted with insults and people that refuse
to explain their POV.
No. If you were honest you would have listened to what you were told.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
08 Nov 2004 07:18:01 PM |
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Gary DeWaay <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1bf941bd56dff8c2989ad9@news.midco.net>...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
Only if one is under the pretense that believing something doesn't exist
without any proof, doesn't require faith.
Well, speaking for myself only, I don't believe in god (s) because I don't
see any evidence to show that they exist.
Does that mean that I know for a fact that they don't? Of course not. I
would never say "There is no god!" because I don't know that for a fact.
I have the exact same belief.
For many self described atheists - that is all that is required - they
are different to the theists in that they do not believe in their God
- and use the word atheist to describe that stance.
The traditional( ? arguable but let it stand for now) idea of there
*being* a God and the non-believer rejecting that God - is to put onto
someone (project onto someone) who merely refuses to accept someone
elses say so on God existing - they feel misrepresented - strawmaned -
slandered - and hence angry.
Hence the hostile reaction when you use the exact same language that
the theist uses - you unquestioningly use their rhetoric.
Hence the suspicion in many minds that you are a theist pretending to
be an atheist (its happened before).
However, without evidence, I cannot conclusively believe in he/she/it/them.
No faith involved.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=faith
"Faith: b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof"
There you have it firm belief *in* something.
Many people firmly believe *in* the existence and atributes of an
entirely invisible undetectable God thingy.
That requires a mountain of "Faith".
To compare the very modest "molehill" of "faith" (some would argue
none - its definitely teeny weeny) to not subscribe to that belief is
to equivocate - ussually with the obvious mative to decieve - to
obsficate.
I don't see how this can be, and I don't see why atheists here get their
underwear in a bunch about it.
snip
It is obvious this makes atheists uncomfortable.
Primarily because we don't care for people dropping in here and telling us
what we believe or don't believe - or that we have faith and we know we
don't.
I guess I'm trying to figure out how this all fits together here.
I hope I have been of some help.
If the only way a person can be an atheist is to refuse that any faith is
involved in a belief that has no proof either way, I can understand why
this is such a touchy subject.
It is not very logical.
To believe something doesn't exist is still a belief. What's wrong with
that?
Nothing - except that you have to be very careful of comparing
molehills and mountains. the word(s) "earth mound" could refer to a
molehill or everest - they are the same "thing" because I can use the
same word(s) for both - right?
There are beliefs and *then* there are beliefs.
There are beliefs which are firmly, passionately held - beliefs that
you would die for - beliefs that make life worth living - that define
who you are and what is important to you.
Then there are beliefs like - "I believe I left my umbrella on the
bus".
You dont *know* for absolutely certain that your umbrella is on the
bus - so Michael has Faith in Christ and Jim has Faith in the location
of his umbrella?
Does a lttle light begin to dawn?
Do you see what this is about now?
What generates the heat in these exchanges is that "faith" is
generally taken to refer to the passionate - life defining - essential
beliefs. Using it to speak of *any* belief at all is to equivocate -
generally with the intent to decieve or obsficate.
So when we dismiss/reject the Theists Faith they counter attack that
we have "Faith" too.
This is disingenuous (a purely rhetorical device) because it is
essentially an equivocation on the word "Faith".
Lets post the rest of the definition shall we?
Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin
fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to
one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the
traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something
for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction;
especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF
They have trust in and alliegence to their God (Faith 1(a) and *all*
the other meanings!) we believe, without absolute certainty, that it
doesnt even exist to have trust in and alligence too (so **arguably**
2b(1)and *none* of the other meanings! ).
So to say that Faith (meanings 1a,1b,2a,2b,3) (Faith in the religious
sense)is the same thing as faith (meaning 2b(1) ) IS (obviously!)
equivocation.
Mark.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: An atheist church? |
09 Nov 2004 07:00:01 AM |
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On 8 Nov 2004 17:18:01 -0800, (Richo) wrote:
Gary DeWaay <dewaay2spikeNOT@sio.midco.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1bf941bd56dff8c2989ad9@news.midco.net>...
Robibnikoff's wisdom:
Only if one is under the pretense that believing something doesn't exist
without any proof, doesn't require faith.
Well, speaking for myself only, I don't believe in god (s) because I don't
see any evidence to show that they exist.
Does that mean that I know for a fact that they don't? Of course not. I
would never say "There is no god!" because I don't know that for a fact.
I have the exact same belief.
For many self described atheists - that is all that is required - they
are different to the theists in that they do not believe in their God
- and use the word atheist to describe that stance.
The traditional( ? arguable but let it stand for now) idea of there
*being* a God and the non-believer rejecting that God - is to put onto
someone (project onto someone) who merely refuses to accept someone
elses say so on God existing - they feel misrepresented - strawmaned -
slandered - and hence angry.
Especially when we have taken the trouble to correct him. And explain
why he got it wrong.
Hence the hostile reaction when you use the exact same language that
the theist uses - you unquestioningly use their rhetoric.
Repeatedly, even after he was corrected.
Hence the suspicion in many minds that you are a theist pretending to
be an atheist (its happened before).
It happens far too often, and the the pattern is the same as happened
here: they repeatedly ignore correction. If it were an honest mistake
they would be expected to get it right the next time.
But they don't. And neither did the poster here.
At which point it escalates.
And they should not start whining, lying about "why" we have reacted
thhe way we did, etc. That only escalates it even further.
But it is remarkable how many of them do this.
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