| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"dave" |
| Date: |
16 Dec 2004 01:05:06 PM |
| Object: |
An infinite universe |
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe infinite?
Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the Universe is actually
relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors illusion tricking us into thinking
that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and scientists are
now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether space is finite is
something people have been asking since ancient times, and probably before
that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks from Canton, New York. "If we
resolved this and confirmed that space is finite, this would be an enormous
step forward in our understanding of nature."
.
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
16 Dec 2004 07:30:27 PM |
|
|
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe
infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the Universe is
actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors illusion tricking us
into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and scientists
are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether space is finite is
something people have been asking since ancient times, and probably before
that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks from Canton, New York. "If we
resolved this and confirmed that space is finite, this would be an
enormous step forward in our understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
16 Dec 2004 09:22:18 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe
infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the
Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that space
is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 09:20:55 AM |
|
|
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe
infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the
Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that space
is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere in the
middle.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 06:44:23 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:rPCwd.16$L7.14@trnddc05:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are
fuelling debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our
Universe infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that
the Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that
space is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere
in the middle.
Whooossssssh.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 07:40:17 PM |
|
|
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C2C80E6EA77wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:rPCwd.16$L7.14@trnddc05:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are
fuelling debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our
Universe infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that
the Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that
space is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere
in the middle.
Whooossssssh.
Well, that happens to me quite often. ;-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
18 Dec 2004 11:18:21 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:40:17 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C2C80E6EA77wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:rPCwd.16$L7.14@trnddc05:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are
fuelling debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our
Universe infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that
the Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that
space is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere
in the middle.
Whooossssssh.
Well, that happens to me quite often. ;-)
/innocent look
Make a 'Whoosssssssh hook(tm)' and fly anywhere you like. :)
BTW, is your mobility factor still increasing?
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
18 Dec 2004 04:09:16 PM |
|
|
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:agp8s0tps40tkt90gj34njj6ofdhrl8ls2@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:40:17 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C2C80E6EA77wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:rPCwd.16$L7.14@trnddc05:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are
fuelling debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our
Universe infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that
the Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that
space is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere
in the middle.
Whooossssssh.
Well, that happens to me quite often. ;-)
/innocent look
Make a 'Whoosssssssh hook(tm)' and fly anywhere you like. :)
BTW, is your mobility factor still increasing?
Indeed it is. Now all I have to do is get my JUMP factor up so that when the
"whoooosh" goes by I have a chance of catching it. ;-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
19 Dec 2004 07:51:49 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:09:16 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:agp8s0tps40tkt90gj34njj6ofdhrl8ls2@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:40:17 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C2C80E6EA77wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:rPCwd.16$L7.14@trnddc05:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are
fuelling debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our
Universe infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that
the Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that
space is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere
in the middle.
Whooossssssh.
Well, that happens to me quite often. ;-)
/innocent look
Make a 'Whoosssssssh hook(tm)' and fly anywhere you like. :)
BTW, is your mobility factor still increasing?
Indeed it is. Now all I have to do is get my JUMP factor up so that when the
"whoooosh" goes by I have a chance of catching it. ;-)
Excellant..... :)
May I suggest a sling shot?
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 09:27:00 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:20:55 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe
infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the
Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that space
is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere in the
middle.
Where is the middle?
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 07:33:00 PM |
|
|
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:alu5s01top0td5piebk2a3spo9e68vibli@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:20:55 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95C1E2CCE45C2wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe
infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the
Universe is actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors
illusion tricking us into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and
scientists are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether
space is finite is something people have been asking since ancient
times, and probably before that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks
from Canton, New York. "If we resolved this and confirmed that space
is finite, this would be an enormous step forward in our
understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
The same thing that on the other side of a Moebius strip.
A Moebius strip does have two sides. They just trade places somewhere in
the
middle.
Where is the middle?
Wherever you want to put it, I suppose.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "BTR1701" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
16 Dec 2004 09:24:47 PM |
|
|
In article <TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02>,
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe
infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the Universe is
actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors illusion tricking us
into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and scientists
are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether space is finite is
something people have been asking since ancient times, and probably before
that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks from Canton, New York. "If we
resolved this and confirmed that space is finite, this would be an
enormous step forward in our understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
Nothing. Not even vacuum.
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 09:22:13 AM |
|
|
"BTR1701" <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:btr1702-CD7361.22244716122004@news.giganews.com...
In article <TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02>,
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
"dave" <dkatz@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:cpsm8v$aml$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Hints of a finite universe
Perplexing observations beamed back by a NASA spacecraft are fuelling
debates about a mystery of biblical proportions - is our Universe
infinite? Scientists have announced tantalising hints that the Universe
is
actually relatively small, with a hall-of-mirrors illusion tricking us
into thinking that space stretches on forever.
However, work by a second team seems to contradict this, and scientists
are now busy trying to resolve the conundrum. "Whether space is finite
is
something people have been asking since ancient times, and probably
before
that," says mathematician Jeffrey Weeks from Canton, New York. "If we
resolved this and confirmed that space is finite, this would be an
enormous step forward in our understanding of nature."
Question:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
Nothing. Not even vacuum.
I don't think so. Besides which, isn't the universe expanding? In which
case, if it is not infinite, isn't it becoming so....and thus isn't it
already so?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 03:01:24 PM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
"BTR1701" <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:btr1702-CD7361.22244716122004@news.giganews.com...
In article <TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02>,
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
< snip >
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
Nothing. Not even vacuum.
I don't think so.
LOL! Then why did you ask? What do *you* think is "outside"?
Besides which, isn't the universe expanding? In which
case, if it is not infinite, isn't it becoming so....
I can't see how a finite volume could turn into an infinite volume
simply by expanding.
and thus isn't it
already so?
???
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 02:58:26 PM |
|
|
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02>,
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
< snip >
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
Nothing. Not even vacuum.
....Because there is no "outside".
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
.
|
|
|
| User: "TCS" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 03:03:43 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:58:26 -0600, Tukla Ratte <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <TEqwd.71$tG3.54@trnddc02>,
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote:
< snip >
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
Nothing. Not even vacuum.
...Because there is no "outside".
Somebody has to post this: (Douglas Adams /HHGTTG)
Universe, The
Some information to help you live in it.
1. Area: infinite.
2. Imports: none.
It is impossible to import things into an infinite area, there being no
outside to import things from.
3. Exports: none.
See Imports.
4. Population: none.
It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because
there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every
one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of
inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to
nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in
the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the
population of the whole Universe is zero, and that any people you may meet
from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.
5. Monetary Units: none.
In fact there are three freely convertible currencies in the Galaxy, but
none of them count. The Altairian Dollar has recently collapsed, the
Flainian Pobble Bead is only exchangeable for other Flainian Pobble Beads,
and the Triganic Pu has its own very special problems. Its exchange rate of
eight Ningis to one Pu is simple enough, but since a Ningi is a triangular
rubber coin six thousand eight hundred miles along each side, no one has
ever collected enough to own one Pu. Ningis are not negotiable currency,
because the Galactibanks refuse to deal in fiddling small change. From this
basic premise it is very simple to prove that the Galactibanks are also the
product of a deranged imagination.
6. Art: none.
The function of art is to hold the mirror up to nature, and there simply
isn.t a mirror big enough . see point one.
7. Sex: none.
Well, in fact there is an awful lot of this, largely because of the total
lack of money, trade, banks, art, or anything else that might keep all the
nonexistent people of the Universe occupied.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
16 Dec 2004 10:52:38 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:30:27 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
What outside? "Not infinite" doesn't mean "part of something larger".
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 09:22:56 AM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:pfp4s0p7i7081hm38nrkapd6tniuq3j779@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:30:27 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
What outside? "Not infinite" doesn't mean "part of something larger".
Perhaps it's my non-mathematical head...I can't get my mind around the
concept that a boundary doesn't have two sides.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 03:05:39 PM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:pfp4s0p7i7081hm38nrkapd6tniuq3j779@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:30:27 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
What outside? "Not infinite" doesn't mean "part of something larger".
Perhaps it's my non-mathematical head...I can't get my mind around the
concept that a boundary doesn't have two sides.
I don't think anyone can actually *visualize* such a state. It's like
trying to picture a four-dimensional room or the wave/particle duality
of a photon.
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 02:00:50 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:22:56 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:pfp4s0p7i7081hm38nrkapd6tniuq3j779@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:30:27 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
What outside? "Not infinite" doesn't mean "part of something larger".
Perhaps it's my non-mathematical head...I can't get my mind around the
concept that a boundary doesn't have two sides.
Nor can you get your mind around infinity (or even some very huge
number). But the universe can be finite yet the only thing there is.
Of course there's no evidence that it IS finite. Nor is there any
that it's infinite. All we know is that we can only a certain
distance into it (due to expansion and the speed of light), and it
looks finite.
---
CellPhonesEtc at optonline dot net
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 07:35:50 PM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <CellPhones@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:che6s0hja92qieor9cbmfdhmk7t91jn2e0@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:22:56 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:pfp4s0p7i7081hm38nrkapd6tniuq3j779@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:30:27 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
If it's not infinite, what's on the outside?
What outside? "Not infinite" doesn't mean "part of something larger".
Perhaps it's my non-mathematical head...I can't get my mind around the
concept that a boundary doesn't have two sides.
Nor can you get your mind around infinity (or even some very huge
number). But the universe can be finite yet the only thing there is.
Of course there's no evidence that it IS finite. Nor is there any
that it's infinite. All we know is that we can only a certain
distance into it (due to expansion and the speed of light), and it
looks finite.
......and it is expanding? But if it is exanding, yet finite, where is it
going?
(honestly confused)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
17 Dec 2004 09:33:37 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:35:50 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <CellPhones@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:che6s0hja92qieor9cbmfdhmk7t91jn2e0@4ax.com...
Of course there's no evidence that it IS finite. Nor is there any
that it's infinite. All we know is that we can only a certain
distance into it (due to expansion and the speed of light), and it
looks finite.
.....and it is expanding? But if it is exanding, yet finite, where is it
going?
(honestly confused)
As in "expanding into what?"
It's not. The "what" is expanding. "The universe is expanding"
doesn't mean that matter is expanding, although it is, it means that
the location in which matter finds itself is "expanding". Space-time
itself is growing larger. It's a more difficult concept than the one
that, in the Big Bang, nothing actually banged (or exploded). The
problem lies in the fact that it can't be expressed in natural
language - it's a mathematical concept. It's like trying to explain
"red" to someone blind from birth, or "loud" to someone deaf from
birth. The only language you can use doesn't have referents that
apply to the problem.
--
"To assume the existence of an unperceivable being ... does not facilitate understanding
the orderliness we find in the perceivable world."
- Letter to an Iowa student who asked, What is God? July, 1953; Einstein Archive 59-085
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
18 Dec 2004 08:39:34 AM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:cv87s0dmjgepnvvum0tgfeieqa5rborr1k@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:35:50 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <CellPhones@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:che6s0hja92qieor9cbmfdhmk7t91jn2e0@4ax.com...
Of course there's no evidence that it IS finite. Nor is there any
that it's infinite. All we know is that we can only a certain
distance into it (due to expansion and the speed of light), and it
looks finite.
.....and it is expanding? But if it is exanding, yet finite, where is it
going?
(honestly confused)
As in "expanding into what?"
It's not. The "what" is expanding. "The universe is expanding"
doesn't mean that matter is expanding, although it is, it means that
the location in which matter finds itself is "expanding". Space-time
itself is growing larger. It's a more difficult concept than the one
that, in the Big Bang, nothing actually banged (or exploded). The
problem lies in the fact that it can't be expressed in natural
language - it's a mathematical concept. It's like trying to explain
"red" to someone blind from birth, or "loud" to someone deaf from
birth. The only language you can use doesn't have referents that
apply to the problem.
I am beginning to see that. Although I understand the concept that the
'what', (namely, the universe itself) is all there is and it is simply
getting bigger. However, that in itself raises a question. Bigger than what?
If the universe...all that is...is measured only by itself, how can we apply
relative discriptors to it, as in 'bigger' or 'smaller'? It is what it is.
Hmnnn.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
18 Dec 2004 07:09:53 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:39:34 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
I am beginning to see that. Although I understand the concept that the
'what', (namely, the universe itself) is all there is and it is simply
getting bigger. However, that in itself raises a question. Bigger than what?
If the universe...all that is...is measured only by itself, how can we apply
relative discriptors to it, as in 'bigger' or 'smaller'? It is what it is.
Bigger than what it was earlier. Imagine a balloon being blown up.
It's bigger than it was.
Any two points on it are receding from each other - that's the
expansion we're observing, in the case of the universe. (Any points
that are moving in some way in addition to the expansion may be moving
toward each other, but that's something else.)
---
CellPhonesEtc at optonline dot net
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
18 Dec 2004 09:07:45 PM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <CellPhones@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:kvk9s05f342s750ek0q2tt1t00obqv6pin@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:39:34 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
I am beginning to see that. Although I understand the concept that the
'what', (namely, the universe itself) is all there is and it is simply
getting bigger. However, that in itself raises a question. Bigger than
what?
If the universe...all that is...is measured only by itself, how can we
apply
relative discriptors to it, as in 'bigger' or 'smaller'? It is what it
is.
Bigger than what it was earlier. Imagine a balloon being blown up.
It's bigger than it was.
Any two points on it are receding from each other - that's the
expansion we're observing, in the case of the universe. (Any points
that are moving in some way in addition to the expansion may be moving
toward each other, but that's something else.)
I understand that concept. And it's a useful one.
However, I still have a problem with it in this way: balloons, the ones we
are used to, that is, expand in relation to the rest of a very physical
space. The balloon does expand, but there is an inside and an outside.
What proof have we that there is NOT an 'outside' to the balloon we are
calling 'the universe'?
Something that simply has, say, nothing in it?
.
|
|
|
| User: "wcb" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
20 Dec 2004 10:54:19 PM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
"Al Klein" <CellPhones@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:kvk9s05f342s750ek0q2tt1t00obqv6pin@4ax.com...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:39:34 GMT, "DianaC"
<dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> said in alt.atheism:
I am beginning to see that. Although I understand the concept that the
'what', (namely, the universe itself) is all there is and it is simply
getting bigger. However, that in itself raises a question. Bigger than
what?
If the universe...all that is...is measured only by itself, how can we
apply
relative discriptors to it, as in 'bigger' or 'smaller'? It is what it
is.
Bigger than what it was earlier. Imagine a balloon being blown up.
It's bigger than it was.
Any two points on it are receding from each other - that's the
expansion we're observing, in the case of the universe. (Any points
that are moving in some way in addition to the expansion may be moving
toward each other, but that's something else.)
I understand that concept. And it's a useful one.
However, I still have a problem with it in this way: balloons, the ones we
are used to, that is, expand in relation to the rest of a very physical
space. The balloon does expand, but there is an inside and an outside.
What proof have we that there is NOT an 'outside' to the balloon we are
calling 'the universe'?
Something that simply has, say, nothing in it?
There is no proof there is not an outside to this Island
Universe. None at all.
Its simply the fact our physics as we know it now
does not allow us to say for sure what the initial
singularity was like.
Slowly but surely we are figuring it all out.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
21 Dec 2004 11:29:41 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:54:19 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> said
in alt.atheism:
There is no proof there is not an outside to this Island
Universe. None at all.
I've been using "universe" as synonymous with "cosmos", that is "all
there is". Is there something outside the visible universe?
Probably. Is there something outside this island universe? Possibly.
Its simply the fact our physics as we know it now
does not allow us to say for sure what the initial
singularity was like.
Slowly but surely we are figuring it all out.
Nope. Some things are probably impossible to know - and "outside the
universe" is probably one of them, since the physics of this universe
might not apply.
.
|
|
|
| User: "wcb" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
21 Dec 2004 04:06:32 PM |
|
|
Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:54:19 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> said
in alt.atheism:
There is no proof there is not an outside to this Island
Universe. None at all.
I've been using "universe" as synonymous with "cosmos", that is "all
there is". Is there something outside the visible universe?
Probably. Is there something outside this island universe? Possibly.
I use the words Island Universe.
The Universe as a whole is larger than this mere tiny
20 light year wide dab o matter.
Its simply the fact our physics as we know it now
does not allow us to say for sure what the initial
singularity was like.
Slowly but surely we are figuring it all out.
Nope. Some things are probably impossible to know - and "outside the
universe" is probably one of them, since the physics of this universe
might not apply.
Hardly impossible to know. And physics must apply outside and
probably does. Time most certainly does.
--
Dance, monkeys, dance!
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
22 Dec 2004 04:25:27 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:06:32 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> said
in alt.atheism:
I use the words Island Universe.
The Universe as a whole is larger than this mere tiny
20 light year wide dab o matter.
It might be. Since we can't see further out than the light that can
reach us, we don't actually know.
Its simply the fact our physics as we know it now
does not allow us to say for sure what the initial
singularity was like.
Slowly but surely we are figuring it all out.
Nope. Some things are probably impossible to know - and "outside the
universe" is probably one of them, since the physics of this universe
might not apply.
Hardly impossible to know.
May be impossible to know. Or do you know something I don't?
And physics must apply outside
why?
Time most certainly does.
Since time is a property of the universe, why would it apply outside
the universe.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
29 Dec 2004 10:11:47 AM |
|
|
Al Klein <CellPhones@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> said in alt.atheism:
And physics must apply outside
why?
Time most certainly does.
Since time is a property of the universe, why would it apply outside
the universe.
If there actually is something or some place outside the universe
where time doesn't apply or exist, then nothing in that place could
ever change, right? If something changed, it would take time for the
change, right? If there is no time, then there are no changes at all,
which is the mistake the god believers make when they say that their
god exists outside of time and is unchanging. If it truly exists
outside of time, then it wouldn't be able to do anything at all,
including listening to prayers or smiting people or carrying out some
plan, and whatever else the believers think their god can do with no
time to do it.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: An infinite universe |
29 Dec 2004 06:01:27 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:11:47 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> said
in alt.atheism:
If there actually is something or some place outside the universe
where time doesn't apply or exist, then nothing in that place could
ever change, right? If something changed, it would take time for the
change, right? If there is no time, then there are no changes at all,
which is the mistake the god believers make when they say that their
god exists outside of time and is unchanging. If it truly exists
outside of time, then it wouldn't be able to do anything at all,
including listening to prayers or smiting people or carrying out some
plan, and whatever else the believers think their god can do with no
time to do it.
And that's only one reason a god defined the way the Christian one is
defined can't exist.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
