"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in

"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote in
news:Xns9562932CF6220keegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4:

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in
news:Xns95628F0468E12XP@alaska.local:

Experts have overwhelmingly said they are fakes.

experts have overwhelmingly said the documents were authentic.

Where is your proof?

where is your proof?

The proof is that there was no single typewriter that could perform
all the functions featured in the Killian memos in existance at the
time of the alleged writing. The IBM Selectric had the ability to do a
superscript, but didn't have proportional spacing. The IBM Executive
did do proportional spacing, but lacked the ability to do
superscripts.

font that was used in the memo (don't believe me, look at this
comparison of the memo to an MS Word recreation:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12527 and judge for
yourself) wasn't licensed for typewriter use at the time.

the commanding officers who had an integral part in one of the memos
was discharged more than a year before he supposedly appeared on a
memo.

superscript and proportional spacing at the time, but it fails when
you consider it very closely and also consider the centered heading,

which is too exactly like an MS Work centered heading to have been
made with that machine.

Sources:
http://www.selectric.org/selectric/

This story is worthless on three levels. First, there is no way it
could have been typed on a machine of that time period with that
degree of accuracy and that similarly to MS Word. Just isn't possible.
Second, even if it were, the probability that it was is so incredibly
remote that it disqualifies the memos beyond a reasonable doubt. The
only machine which could possibly have done this would have cost tens
of thousands of dollars at the time (adapted to our current money).
It's extremely doubtful that the TexANG base had a regular Selectric
or Executive typewriter. Air National Guard bases were lucky to have
typewriters at all at that time, let alone fancy electric ones capable
of what they would have undoubtedly seen as superfluous functions like
superscript and proportional spacing. But the machine that COULD have
produced these memos wasn't even a typewriter, it was a typesetter,
completely impractical for writing memos to ones self. Also, to get
another font like Times New Roman cost even more money, a useless
luxury for the purposes seen in these memos. What's more, Killian, the
CO in question, hated typing. He wouldn't have gone through all the
trouble to use a typesetter to make a memo. According to his son and
widow, he never brought work home and would never have said what he
said; he thought very highly of George Bush. Chances of all these
things converging and these memos being created: extremely miniscule.
Third, even if these memos WERE written by Killian and everything on
"60 Minutes" was true, it still doesn't mean *****. Bush has admitted
that he was young, arrogant and reckless in those days of his life. He
admits he had an alcohol problem among other things. But none of those
things represent him today. And in the end, it breaks down like this:
Bush ISN'T running on his military record, he's running on his
Presidential record, yet he's still released all his military records.
On the other hand, Kerry's trying to get people to pay as little
attention to his Senate record as possible and as much to his militart
one. Look at his DNC speech; it was full of band of brothers-this and
war hero-that. But Kerry hasn't opened his records to the public.

This is such a non-issue, you'd think the liberals could find
something just a little more concrete to hold onto.

"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns956359C6A2D17keegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4>...

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in
news:Xns9562B9EED43A3XP@alaska.local:

"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote in
news:Xns9562932CF6220keegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4:

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in
news:Xns95628F0468E12XP@alaska.local:

Experts have overwhelmingly said they are fakes.

experts have overwhelmingly said the documents were authentic.

Where is your proof?

where is your proof?

The proof is that there was no single typewriter that could perform
all the functions featured in the Killian memos in existance at the
time of the alleged writing.

BOB wrote:

papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote in
news:bd9f1f6b.0409121650.24a95942@posting.google.com:

Adam H. <adam@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:<ju39k01pt1gkalk0o5n44h9m1uejs32jmc@4ax.com>...

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:

Elmo <anto@sales.com> wrote:

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:

======================================================================
=== ==

Gactimus wrote::
The Prowler reports that CBS got the dubious documents from the
Kerry campaign:
__________________________________________________________________
__ ____ More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer
for the Democratic National Committee received documents
purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air
National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian. .
. .

A CBS producer, who initially tipped off The Prowler about the 60
Minutes story, says that despite seeking professional assurances
that the documents were legitimate, there was uncertainty even
among the group of producers and researchers working on the
story.

"The problem was we had one set of documents from Bush's file
that had Killian calling Bush 'an exceptionally fine young
officer and pilot.' And someone who Killian said 'performed in
an outstanding manner.' Then you have these new documents and the
tone and content are so different."

The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week
when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in
hand did not match up with other documents available on the
public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story.
"This was too hot not to push. If there were doubts, those
people didn't show it," says the producer, who works on a rival
CBS News program.
__________________________________________________________________
__ ____ Now people are wondering if the whole thing was a Karl
Rove setup. Could be, I guess, if Karl Rove is really an
invincibly brilliant genius, in which case Kerry might as well
just give up now.

Or it could be a case of self-defeating Bush hatred syndrome.
They went ahead even though they noticed the signatures didn't
match and the tone was different?

http://www.dailyrecycler.com/blog/2004/09/bombshell-spectator-post
.h tml

======================================================================
=== ==

Elmo wrote:
Can anyone come up with a reason to believe these memo's are
forged or is this just more Republican smear tactics? I have
looked at the evidence and it appears to me they are real.
Furthermore, experts in handwriting analysis and typewriters tell
us they are real, too.

======================================================================
=== ==

Gactimus wrote::

Experts have overwhelmingly said they are fakes. And you seem to
have failed to see the obvious worthlessness of handwriting
analysis of typewritten documents.

======================================================================
=== ==

Adam H. wrote:
Ah, yes. Are these experts you quote the ones who haven't seen the
originals, or the ones who proclaimed fakery because they claim the
font is Times New Roman (although it isn't)? ...

======================================================================
=== == Papa Jack replied:
Let's start with Lt.Col. Jerry Killian's wife and son who both say
the so-called memos are fake. For example, the wife said her
husband didn't type. And, she said Lt. Killian was very favorably
impressed with young Lt. Bush and would never have written the
words that Dan Rather claims are his.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909
-1 .html

======================================================================
=== ==

Adam H. wrote:
...Or are they the ones who have issues with a superscripted 'th'
even though Bush's known-good records from the same year contain
that character?

======================================================================
=== == Papa Jack remarked:

http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd.htm

"The source, who asked not to be named, described
CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan
Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the
increasing likelihood that the documents in ques-
tion were fraudulent."
......................................................................
..
......................................................................
.. ..

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909
-1 .html

"...These documents do not appear to have been the result of
technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill
Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authen-
tication. 'The cumulative evidence that's available . indicates
that these documents were produced on a computer, not a
typewriter:'
..................................................................
.... ..
......................................................................
.. ..

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2002032742_bush
gu ard11.html

"The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure
to 'sugarcoat' George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air
National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was
written, his service record shows.

"An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col.
Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972.
CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was
described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of
the f
uture president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

"That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of docu-
ments that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a
pilot, failed to carry out a superior's order to undergo a
physical exam and was suspended from flying for failing to meet
Air National Guard standards."
[...]

"In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were
supported by both unnamed witnesses and others, including
document examiners. CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The
Dallas Morning News that he had heard nothing to make him
question the legitimacy of the memos. He attributed the backlash
to partisan politics and competitive journalism.
'
"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant
Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate,' he
said. 'Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that
they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation
with the professional rumor mill.'

"The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to
two people who worked with Killian - his superior, retired Maj.
Gen.
Bobby Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong -
and both described the memos as consistent with what they knew
of Killian. Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the docu-
ments, is an avid Bush supporter and 'it took a lot for him to
speak the truth,' the Post quoted Rather as saying.

"The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying
that he believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS
news executive confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.
......................................................................
..
......................................................................
.. ..

http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1047928,00.html

"Retired Col. Maurice Udell, the unit's instructor pilot who
helped train Bush, said yesterday he thought the documents
were fake.

"'I completely am disgusted with this (report) I saw on '60
Minutes,' ' Udell said. 'That's not true. I was there. I knew
Jerry Killian. I went to Vietnam with Jerry Killian in 1968.'
...................................................................
.... .
......................................................................
.. .. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132157,00.html

"Retired Major Gen. Bobby Hodges, a key source behind
a "60 Minutes" story that claims Bush shirked his guard duty, said
that now that he has seen the memos, he does not believe they are
authentic. Hodges told FOX News that CBS did not call him until
two days before the piece aired on the network last Wednesday
night, and never offered to show him the memos. He said the
network only wanted to discuss their content, not their
authenticity.."
[...]

"However, document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines of Paradise
Valley, Ariz., who examined the documents for the Associated
Press, told the news agency that she was 'virtually certain' the
papers were generated by computer.

"Lines said that meant she could testify in court beyond a
reasonable
doubt that her opinion was that the memos were written on a
computer."
...................................................................
.... .
......................................................................
.. ..

The list is growing every day, Adam. But, like Dan Rather, you will
cling to your illusions and go down with the ship.

Your butt-buddy Bush could clear it up. Why doesn't he?

Let's face it, the proof that the documents are forgeries is
overwhelming. I thing this is going to cost Kerry the election.

BOB wrote:

papajack37@sbcglobal.net (papa jack) wrote in
news:bd9f1f6b.0409121650.24a95942@posting.google.com:

Adam H. <adam@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:<ju39k01pt1gkalk0o5n44h9m1uejs32jmc@4ax.com>...

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:

Elmo <anto@sales.com> wrote:

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:

=========================================================================
==

Gactimus wrote::
The Prowler reports that CBS got the dubious documents from the
Kerry campaign:
____________________________________________________________________
____ More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for
the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly
written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard
squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian. . . .

A CBS producer, who initially tipped off The Prowler about the 60
Minutes story, says that despite seeking professional assurances
that the documents were legitimate, there was uncertainty even
among the group of producers and researchers working on the
story.

"The problem was we had one set of documents from Bush's file
that had Killian calling Bush 'an exceptionally fine young
officer and pilot.' And someone who Killian said 'performed in
an outstanding manner.' Then you have these new documents and
the tone and content are so different."

The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week
when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in
hand did not match up with other documents available on the
public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story.
"This was too hot not to push. If there were doubts, those
people didn't show it," says the producer, who works on a rival
CBS News program.
____________________________________________________________________
____ Now people are wondering if the whole thing was a Karl Rove
setup. Could be, I guess, if Karl Rove is really an invincibly
brilliant genius, in which case Kerry might as well just give up
now.

Or it could be a case of self-defeating Bush hatred syndrome.
They went ahead even though they noticed the signatures didn't
match and the tone was different?