Religions > Atheism > Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
07 Dec 2006 04:59:58 PM |
| Object: |
Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus5.htm
Historical Jesus
Ancient Secular Historians
C. Thallus(c. 50-75AD)
D.Phlegon
1) Confirms Jesus' Story known to Romans of first century.
Jesus and History
On Line Electronic books
Edward C. Wharton
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian chronographer of the late second century, was
familiar with them and quotes from them. In a comment on the darkness
that fell upon the land during the crucifixion (Mark 15:33), Africanus
says that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun." [F.F. Bruce, The New Testament
Documents, Eerdmens, p. 113.] Africanus stated his objection to the
report arguing that an eclipse of the sun cannot occur during the full
moon, as was the case when Jesus died at Passover time. The force of
the reference to Thallus is that the circumstances of Jesus' death were
known and discussed in the Imperial City as early as the middle of the
first century. The fact of Jesus' crucifixion must have been fairly
well known by that time, to the extent that unbelievers like Thallus
thought it necessary to explain the matter of the darkness as a natural
phenomenon. Will Durant observed that Thallus' "argument took the
existence of Christ for granted." [Will Durant, Caesar and Christ,
Simon and Schuster, p. 555.] Neither Jesus nor the darkness at his
death were ever denied as factual. Durant summed up the matter of
Christ's historical existence for himself by saying that it never
occured to the early opponents of Christianity to deny the existence of
Jesus. [Ibid]. Ironically, Thallus' efforts have been turned into the
mainstream of historical proof for Jesus and for the reliability of
Mark's account of the darkness at his death."
2) Africanus
Glenn Miller's Christian Think Tank
"What was the historical context for this remark? At the time of his
writing, anti-Christians had already been explaining the darkness at
the time of the crucifixion as a purely natural phenomenon--an eclipse.
Origen, for example, had already hinted in his writings that this idea
of it being an eclipse was an invention of the pagans to discredit the
Gospels (DM:1040, n.17)."
"The passage in Africanus occurs in the discussion as to the darkness
that accompanied the Crucifixion of Jesus. The phrase 'this darkness'
indicates that Thallus was referring to (in HIS history) the events
surrounding the death of Jesus. It is clear from this passage that both
Julius AND Thallus took it for granted that Jesus died (and therefore
existed!)."
"What I find interesting about the existence of this interchange is the
context of Julius' purpose in writing. He is writing a
HISTORY/CHRONOLOGY, not an APOLOGETIC per se. He is trying to anchor
dates and merge biblical chronology with the chronologies of Greece,
Rome, etc. In this effort, he is much more concerned about proving that
the darkness was NOT an eclipse than that it was a supernatural event.
The chronology needs to be consistent with astronomical data (as
required for ALL good 'historia'). His concern is historical TRUTH, not
theology."
Glenn Miller [Christiain Think Tank]
What was the background of Julius Africanus?
Let's begin by noting some of the events and activities of his life
(CTEC:103, Schaff:I.191; PAC:307):
* A native of Jerusalem (Aelia)
*Socialized with King Abgar IV the Great at Edessa
*Visited Ararat in search of Noah's ark
*Visited Dead Sea and Jacob's terebinth in Palestine
*Travelled to Rome as embassy from Emmaus
* "At Rome he so impressed the Emperor Alexander Severus (222-35) by
his erudition that the emperor entrusted him with the building of his
library at the Pantheon in Rome" (CTEC:103)--NOTICE: this is
pre-Constantine!
* Wrote a miscellany, similar in content to Pliny's Natural History,
dedicated to Severus.
*Did work in textual criticism of Homer's works: "he knew various
manuscripts of Homer which lay in civic libraries from the old site of
Jerusalem to that fine city Nysa in Caria" (PAC:307)
*"Africanus was the first Christian whose writings were not all
concerned with his faith." (CTEC:103)
*"He was not an ecclesiastic, as far as we know, but a philosopher who
pursued his favorite studies after conversion and made them useful to
the church." (Schaff)
*He knew Hebrew, and of course Greek.
*The later Christian historian Socrates classes him for learning with
Clement of Alexandria and Origen!
*His Chronicle is the foundation of medieval historiography of the
world and the church.
* "He made the first attempt at a systematic chronicle of sacred and
profane history" (Schaff)
* He had literary critical skills and was honest enough to use them
(and confront others on even matters of 'sacred cows'!)--"He once
attended a theological disputation during which Origen appealed to the
History of Susanna, and afterwords wrote to Origen a fatherly rebuke
for failing to notice that the pun, being only possible in Greek,
proves the History of Susanna to be an addition to the original book of
Daniel." (CTEC:103).
Robin Lane Fox cites him as an example of the best educated
dual-culture products of his day--one in which the best of culture was
expressed (PAC, op.cit.)
..................................................... Objection:
J. P. Holding, Teckton Apologetics, Deals with one major objections by
critics,
"This darkness was not recorded by the two greatest contemporary
scientists of the time, Seneca and Pliny the Elder. These writers
attempted to record all known contemporary geological and astronomical
phenomenon, which makes their ommission of this event a serious
deterrent to regarding it as historical."
"This objection is sometimes tendered, and I really wonder if those who
make it have actually read the works of Seneca and Pliny in question -
rather than simply, say, parroting Edward Gibbon's remarks on the
subject! Pliny's work is entitled Natural History [Plin.NH] , and it is
a multi-volumed work covering a wide variety of subjects - georgraphy,
meteorology, mineralogy, zoology, and botany. Volume 2 of this work is
concerned with cosmology and astronomy, and is the place we might
expect Pliny to have recorded this event - if he indeed did intend to
record ALL such events! However, there is absolutely no indication that
this was Pliny's intent - he offers examples, he makes descriptions,
but NOWHERE is there any indication that his work is intended to be an
exhaustive catalog of all possible relevant data!"
"More to the point, it is doubtful that Pliny would have recorded this
event in any case, unless he had been there himself. The darkness at
the crucifixion, as we see from Thallus, defied natural explanation,
and had the character of a miracle; and this is precisely the sort of
event that Pliny would pass over in disdain - for he was a skeptic and
a rationalist of the highest order! Consider these words from Pliny's
pen [ibid., 179, 183]:"
'I deem it a mark of human weakness to seek to discover the shape and
form of God.'
'That that supreme being, whatever it be, pays heed to man's affairs is
a ridiculous notion.'
"Given the above, what would this writer have made of reports of a
miraculous and unexplained darkness? My guess is, he would turn up his
nose and relegate the matter to the wastebasket! He would consider such
reports unworthy of his attention and not worth recording.
What, then, of Seneca and his work, Naturales Questiones [Sen.NQ] ?
There is even less cause to suppose mention of the darkness here.
Seneca's work is mostly theoretical surveys of natural phenomena - by
no means an attempt at an exhaustive catalog of events! - and Seneca is
far more concerned with drawing morals from what he records that with
listing events, of which he does very little.
Bottom line: For this objection to have any force, it must be shown WHY
these writers should have included a reference to the darkness - but
there is simply no evidence that they should have, or would have been
interested in recording it."
...............................................................................
More to the point, however, J.P. This has nothing to do with the basic
fact that Thallus knew of Jesus, his crucifiction and at least he Story
...of the Darkness at Noon, which demonstrates that it did circulate to
Rome in the first century, hense putting the lie to the charges of
Wells and Doherty that Jesus only gradually evolved from an abstract
cosmic fiture to a concete historical one by the Second century!
Robert E. Van Voorst sums up nicely the value of this evidence from
Thallus:
"What can be gained from Thallus? Some fog of uncertainty still
surroundsThallos's statement: its extreme brevity, its third-hand
citation, and theidentity and date of the author. While this fog
prevents us from claimingcertainty, a tradition about Jesus' death is
probably present. LikeChristian tradition as found in the Synoptic
Gospels, Thallus accepts a darkness at the death of Jesus. Against that
tradition, he explains it as anatural eclipse of the sun. We can
conclude that this element of Christian tradition was known outside of
Christian circles and that Thallus felt itnecessary to refute it, thus
giving it even wider exposure. Thallos may havebeen knowledgeable about
other elements of the Christian tradition of Jesus'death--it is
unlikely that he knew only this small element of the story ofJesus'
death apart from any wider context--but his literary remains
cannotyield any certainty on this. His argument makes him (if our
dating iscorrect) the first ancient writer known to us to express
literary oppositionto Christianity. Moreover, Thallos is also the only
non-Christian to writeabout a Jesus tradition before that tradition was
written in the canonicalGospels."[Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside
the New Testament,(Michigan: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2000), p. 23]
3) Phlegon Confirms Jesus' story and Darkness at Noon
Phlegon was a historian who lived in the first century. There are two
books credited to his name: Chronicles and the Olympiads. Little is
known about Phlegon but he made reference to Christ. The first two
quotes are unique to Origen and the last quote below is recorded by
Origen and Philopon.
"Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his
Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . .
.. but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions."
Origen Against Celsus
"And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in
whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great
earthquakes which then took place . . . " Origen Against Celsus
"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion
of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not
know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . .
.. and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." De.
opif. mund. II21
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 12:05:11 AM |
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In article <0akhn2hlib4647orap7h93a47sl1aeg5t1@4ax.com>,
rukbat@pern.invalid says...
On 7 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:
says that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun."
There's only one problem with that. Since the date of Passover is
determined by the Lunar calendar, and it's around the time of the full
moon, a solar eclipse is quite impossible around Passover.
When a claim contradicts reality, it's not reality that's wrong.
Yep, it makes it unlike that Thallus actually said it. We were promised
that "ancient astronomers" were weighing in on this matter, but it
doesn't appear that Africanus was anything but an xer apologist. In any
event, this is a problem for the crucifixion story, because now they have
no plausible mechanism for introducing the darkness. Furthermore, if it
became dark for three hours in the afternoon, before passover, then one
would think that the jews would have started passover early and wouldn't
have had time to take jesus off the cross or bury him.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 12:44:32 PM |
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I would like to ask all those defending the claim one little question, one
that can probably be answered or referenced at sci.astro.
Why hasn't any of you presented a list of total solar eclipses that were
visible in the area in a reasonable time span? Plus or minus two months of a
Passover between 25CE and 35 CE?
Real science can do this with little problem and since you are claiming a
scientific reason for the alleged event, why not use astronomy as well as
your references to what somebody may have said?
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 07:44:59 AM |
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On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 23:05:11 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <0akhn2hlib4647orap7h93a47sl1aeg5t1@4ax.com>,
rukbat@pern.invalid says...
On 7 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:
says that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun."
There's only one problem with that. Since the date of Passover is
determined by the Lunar calendar, and it's around the time of the full
moon, a solar eclipse is quite impossible around Passover.
When a claim contradicts reality, it's not reality that's wrong.
Yep, it makes it unlike that Thallus actually said it. We were promised
that "ancient astronomers" were weighing in on this matter, but it
doesn't appear that Africanus was anything but an xer apologist. In any
event, this is a problem for the crucifixion story, because now they have
no plausible mechanism for introducing the darkness. Furthermore, if it
became dark for three hours in the afternoon, before passover, then one
would think that the jews would have started passover early and wouldn't
have had time to take jesus off the cross or bury him.
And totality doesn't last 3 hours.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of
themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 08:34:05 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:44:59 -0500, Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 23:05:11 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <0akhn2hlib4647orap7h93a47sl1aeg5t1@4ax.com>,
rukbat@pern.invalid says...
On 7 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:
says that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun."
There's only one problem with that. Since the date of Passover is
determined by the Lunar calendar, and it's around the time of the full
moon, a solar eclipse is quite impossible around Passover.
When a claim contradicts reality, it's not reality that's wrong.
Yep, it makes it unlike that Thallus actually said it. We were promised
that "ancient astronomers" were weighing in on this matter, but it
doesn't appear that Africanus was anything but an xer apologist. In any
event, this is a problem for the crucifixion story, because now they have
no plausible mechanism for introducing the darkness. Furthermore, if it
became dark for three hours in the afternoon, before passover, then one
would think that the jews would have started passover early and wouldn't
have had time to take jesus off the cross or bury him.
And totality doesn't last 3 hours.
So help me, that entire section in there really ought to embarrass the
crap out of Christians. Sudden, inexplicable darkness, drizzles of blood
(or was it thunderstorms of blood, I forget), zombies...
St. Roger Corman?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"...otherwise, we're looking at the potential of this kind
of world:.... a world in which oil reserves are controlled
by radicals in order to extract blackmail from the West..."
-George Bush
Wait... oil reserves?
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 12:50:04 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
So help me, that entire section in there really ought to embarrass the
crap out of Christians. Sudden, inexplicable darkness, drizzles of blood
(or was it thunderstorms of blood, I forget), zombies...
St. Roger Corman?
Yeah, seriously, I've always wondered about that. If dead people got
up and walked around, don't they think that *somebody* would have
written *something* about it? Same with the story of King Herod and
the slaughter of male babies. Sheesh, why didn't anybody note down
*that* little adventure?
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
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| User: "none" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 01:38:32 PM |
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In article <1165603803.961270.87500@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>,
skyeyes@dakotacom.net says...
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
So help me, that entire section in there really ought to embarrass the
crap out of Christians. Sudden, inexplicable darkness, drizzles of blood
(or was it thunderstorms of blood, I forget), zombies...
St. Roger Corman?
Yeah, seriously, I've always wondered about that. If dead people got
up and walked around, don't they think that *somebody* would have
written *something* about it?
In particular, why didn't Thallus. If we are taking his alleged
discussion of darkness as evidence for the gospel, then his omission of
discussion on the zombies walking around would have to be equally taken
as disconfirmation of another aspect of the gospels. Remember,
inerrantism requires that they get everything right, so it wouldn't be
enough to get the darkness right but the zombies wrong.
Same with the story of King Herod and
the slaughter of male babies. Sheesh, why didn't anybody note down
*that* little adventure?
In particular, why wouldn't Josephus have written about this? Some claim
that he'd be afraid of offending Romans, but all the romans who would
care would have been dead by then, and Romans probably would have spun it
as a way of cracking down on unruly jewish subjects. So I doubt they
would have censored it. They didn't censor commentary about Nero, so why
censor a story about Herod?
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
09 Dec 2006 09:48:00 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:50:04 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
So help me, that entire section in there really ought to embarrass the
crap out of Christians. Sudden, inexplicable darkness, drizzles of blood
(or was it thunderstorms of blood, I forget), zombies...
St. Roger Corman?
Yeah, seriously, I've always wondered about that. If dead people got
up and walked around, don't they think that *somebody* would have
written *something* about it? Same with the story of King Herod and
the slaughter of male babies. Sheesh, why didn't anybody note down
*that* little adventure?
Yeah. According to Matthew, the zombies of the saints were seen by "many."
Funny nobody bothered to write home about it...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about
a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of
comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is
aware that they are myths and that he believes them only
because they are comforting. But he dare not face this
thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his
opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are
disputed." -Bertrand Russell
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 10:22:31 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:34:05 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:44:59 -0500, Al Klein wrote:
And totality doesn't last 3 hours.
So help me, that entire section in there really ought to embarrass the
crap out of Christians. Sudden, inexplicable darkness, drizzles of blood
(or was it thunderstorms of blood, I forget), zombies...
"True Belief" means never having to say you're sorry. Even if you're
really a sorry excuse for sapience.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Does it ever amaze anyone else how little faith some heterosexuals have
in heterosexuality? It's supposed to be this god-given human instinct
that only the warped and perverted ever stray from; but, it seems, if we
once tell our straight children a message even as mild as "some people
are gay, and that's all right," that'll be enough to send lil' Suzy into
the arms of women forever. It's a wonder the race has survived this
long, really..."
- Charles M Seaton (21 Dec 1994)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
09 Dec 2006 08:38:06 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:22:31 -0500, Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:34:05 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:44:59 -0500, Al Klein wrote:
And totality doesn't last 3 hours.
So help me, that entire section in there really ought to embarrass the
crap out of Christians. Sudden, inexplicable darkness, drizzles of blood
(or was it thunderstorms of blood, I forget), zombies...
"True Belief" means never having to say you're sorry. Even if you're
really a sorry excuse for sapience.
I just wanna know what the guy who wrote that was on...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because
if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather
than that of blindfolded Fear"
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
09 Dec 2006 03:10:44 PM |
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On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 08:38:06 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:22:31 -0500, Al Klein wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:34:05 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:44:59 -0500, Al Klein wrote:
And totality doesn't last 3 hours.
So help me, that entire section in there really ought to embarrass the
crap out of Christians. Sudden, inexplicable darkness, drizzles of blood
(or was it thunderstorms of blood, I forget), zombies...
"True Belief" means never having to say you're sorry. Even if you're
really a sorry excuse for sapience.
I just wanna know what the guy who wrote that was on...
The original in the Bible? They had no idea what caused eclipses,
other than God covering the sun for his own reason, so it sounded
perfectly logical to them that he would cause a few hours of darkness
when Jesus was crucified. Even though, as most Christians will tell
you now, even if they had the chance they wouldn't go back and "save"
Jesus because he "had to" die to save them.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when
it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it
so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil
power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
- Benjamin Franklin
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
07 Dec 2006 05:01:56 PM |
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On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus5.htm
Historical Jesus
Ancient Secular Historians
C. Thallus(c. 50-75AD)
D.Phlegon
1) Confirms Jesus' Story known to Romans of first century.
Jesus and History
On Line Electronic books
Edward C. Wharton
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian forger made ***** up.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due
to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum.
-Havelock Ellis
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
07 Dec 2006 05:04:00 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian forger made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
07 Dec 2006 09:20:20 PM |
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On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian forger made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards,
witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling
from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical,
absurd and primitive stories, and you say that *we* are the
ones that need help?" -Jon Stoll
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 02:06:33 AM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian forger made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling fridge.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 11:21:36 AM |
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"Martin Edwards" <big_mart_98@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v_WdnQ-Ez9Y6geTYRVnyvgA@bt.com...
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian forger made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling fridge.
Hmm, I thought it was a piano.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Peter Bruells" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 03:49:40 AM |
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Martin Edwards <big_mart_98@yahoo.com> writes:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling fridge.
Piano.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 07:45:43 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:06:33 +0000, Martin Edwards wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian forger made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling fridge.
My sister was bit by a moose.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism,
because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
- Mussolini
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| User: "The Chief Instigator" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 09:08:13 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> writes:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:06:33 +0000, Martin Edwards wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian forger made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling fridge.
My sister was bit by a moose.
But...was she bitten by a møøse? ;-)
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2006-07 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Omaha 1, Houston 0 (SO) (December 7)
NEXT GAME: Saturday, December 9 vs. Omaha, 7:35
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 12:31:21 PM |
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The Chief Instigator wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> writes:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:06:33 +0000, Martin Edwards wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in
Rome about A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element
which accompanied the crucifixion. Though the writings of
Thallus are lost to us, Julius Africanus, a Christian forger
made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling
fridge.
My sister was bit by a moose.
But...was she bitten by a møøse? ;-)
We apologise for this thread getting off track and have REMOVED the møøse
from the keyboard.
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| User: "The Chief Instigator" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 04:07:20 PM |
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"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> writes:
The Chief Instigator wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> writes:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:06:33 +0000, Martin Edwards wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in
Rome about A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element
which accompanied the crucifixion. Though the writings of
Thallus are lost to us, Julius Africanus, a Christian forger
made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling
fridge.
My sister was bit by a moose.
But...was she bitten by a møøse? ;-)
We apologise for this thread getting off track and have REMOVED the møøse
from the keyboard.
A good idea...mind you, møøse bites can be pretty nasty. ;-)
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2006-07 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Omaha 1, Houston 0 (SO) (December 7)
NEXT GAME: Saturday, December 9 vs. Omaha, 7:35
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
09 Dec 2006 07:16:51 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:31:21 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
The Chief Instigator wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> writes:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:06:33 +0000, Martin Edwards wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in
Rome about A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element
which accompanied the crucifixion. Though the writings of
Thallus are lost to us, Julius Africanus, a Christian forger
made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling
fridge.
My sister was bit by a moose.
But...was she bitten by a møøse? ;-)
We apologise for this thread getting off track and have REMOVED the møøse
from the keyboard.
What flavor was it? I like strawberry.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
09 Dec 2006 02:25:02 PM |
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Dubh Ghall wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:31:21 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The Chief Instigator wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> writes:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:06:33 +0000, Martin Edwards wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:04:00 -0800, skyeyes wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in
Rome about A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element
which accompanied the crucifixion. Though the writings of
Thallus are lost to us, Julius Africanus, a Christian forger
made ***** up.
Why do you hate my keyboards? <Mops up>
Um... I was bit by a keyboard while just a small child?
That's not so bad. Eddy Valiant's brother was killed by a falling
fridge.
My sister was bit by a moose.
But...was she bitten by a møøse? ;-)
We apologise for this thread getting off track and have REMOVED the
møøse from the keyboard.
What flavor was it? I like strawberry.
Sorry, apparently the møøse got back and edited my comment. We removed the
antlered creature from the vicinity of the keyboard. What was left was not
strawberry.
I didn't know what it was so made a møøse pie out of it.
Everybody said they liked it and I'm still the cook.
.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
07 Dec 2006 05:59:57 PM |
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Sound of Desperation Lied (Again):
http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus5.htm
Historical Jesus
Ancient Secular Historians
C. Thallus(c. 50-75AD)
D.Phlegon
1) Confirms Jesus' Story known to Romans of first century.
Jesus and History
On Line Electronic books
Edward C. Wharton
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian chronographer of the late second century, was
familiar with them and quotes from them. In a comment on the darkness
that fell upon the land during the crucifixion (Mark 15:33), Africanus
says that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun." [F.F. Bruce, The New Testament
Documents, Eerdmens, p. 113.] Africanus stated his objection to the
report arguing that an eclipse of the sun cannot occur during the full
moon, as was the case when Jesus died at Passover time. The force of
the reference to Thallus is that the circumstances of Jesus' death were
known and discussed in the Imperial City as early as the middle of the
first century. The fact of Jesus' crucifixion must have been fairly
well known by that time, to the extent that unbelievers like Thallus
thought it necessary to explain the matter of the darkness as a natural
phenomenon. Will Durant observed that Thallus' "argument took the
existence of Christ for granted." [Will Durant, Caesar and Christ,
Simon and Schuster, p. 555.] Neither Jesus nor the darkness at his
death were ever denied as factual. Durant summed up the matter of
Christ's historical existence for himself by saying that it never
occured to the early opponents of Christianity to deny the existence of
Jesus. [Ibid]. Ironically, Thallus' efforts have been turned into the
mainstream of historical proof for Jesus and for the reliability of
Mark's account of the darkness at his death."
2) Africanus
Glenn Miller's Christian Think Tank
"What was the historical context for this remark? At the time of his
writing, anti-Christians had already been explaining the darkness at
the time of the crucifixion as a purely natural phenomenon--an eclipse.
Origen, for example, had already hinted in his writings that this idea
of it being an eclipse was an invention of the pagans to discredit the
Gospels (DM:1040, n.17)."
"The passage in Africanus occurs in the discussion as to the darkness
that accompanied the Crucifixion of Jesus. The phrase 'this darkness'
indicates that Thallus was referring to (in HIS history) the events
surrounding the death of Jesus. It is clear from this passage that both
Julius AND Thallus took it for granted that Jesus died (and therefore
existed!)."
Ed Babinski exposes this lie here:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/thallus.html
Budikka
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| User: "Gene Ward Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
07 Dec 2006 07:51:58 PM |
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Budikka666 wrote:
Ed Babinski exposes this lie here:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/thallus.html
Babinski erroneously claims we have Eusebius quoting Africanus
discussing Thallus. In fact, we have George Syncellus quoting Africanus
discussing Thallus. Since George Syncellus was a late eighth early
ninth century Byzantine dude, this is not an improvement. This is why
historians don't bother with the question of why Thallus wrote what he
did--we have no real reason to think he did write it.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 01:56:46 PM |
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Gene Ward Smith schreef:
Budikka666 wrote:
Ed Babinski exposes this lie here:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/thallus.html
Babinski erroneously claims we have Eusebius quoting Africanus
discussing Thallus. In fact, we have George Syncellus quoting Africanus
discussing Thallus. Since George Syncellus was a late eighth early
ninth century Byzantine dude, this is not an improvement. This is why
historians don't bother with the question of why Thallus wrote what he
did--we have no real reason to think he did write it.
Well one reason perhaps
There actually was a total solar eclipse on november 24, 29 AD.
(I just had to check:)
If Thallus didn't know what month and what year Jesus was supposed to
die in,
it wouldn't be onlogical for him to come of with an eclipse as an
explanation,
for the supposed darkness/
By the way, there wasn't another eclips in the palestine region in the
first century.
Maybe Marc heard about it, and liked it so much, he changed his story,
to put the eclipse in.
(or Marc's source, as there is no way of telling, wether Marc didn't
copy an earlier (oral?) story)
Peter van Velzen
December 2006
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
..
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| User: "Gene Ward Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 02:47:47 PM |
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wrote:
By the way, there wasn't another eclips in the palestine region in the
first century.
And this was a nice one, total at Jerusalem with darkness not at noon
but 10:47 am.
Maybe Marc heard about it, and liked it so much, he changed his story,
to put the eclipse in.
(or Marc's source, as there is no way of telling, wether Marc didn't
copy an earlier (oral?) story)
Alternatively, the the crucifixion really did happen on November 24,
and the whole Passover theme was added because of an idea that Jesus
was the symbolic sacrifice.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 03:38:54 PM |
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Gene Ward Smith schreef:
Budikka666 wrote:
Ed Babinski exposes this lie here:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/thallus.html
Babinski erroneously claims we have Eusebius quoting Africanus
discussing Thallus. In fact, we have George Syncellus quoting Africanus
discussing Thallus. Since George Syncellus was a late eighth early
ninth century Byzantine dude, this is not an improvement. This is why
historians don't bother with the question of why Thallus wrote what he
did--we have no real reason to think he did write it.
Well one reason perhaps
There actually was a total solar eclipse on november 24, 29 AD.
(I just had to check:)
If Thallus didn't know what month and what year Jesus was supposed to
die in,
it wouldn't be onlogical for him to come of with an eclipse as an
explanation,
for the supposed darkness/
By the way, there wasn't another eclips in the palestine region in the
first century.
Maybe Marc heard about it, and liked it so much, he changed his story,
to put the eclipse in.
(or Marc's source, as there is no way of telling, wether Marc didn't
copy an earlier (oral?) story)
Peter van Velzen
December 2006
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
..
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 04:07:48 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and
worked in Rome about A.D. 52, wrote to offset the
supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion.
He wasn't born in 52 A.D.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html
It's been a long time, but my understanding of Christianity
is such that the existence of zombies would disprove the
bible.
Anyhow, as the website makes clear, there is no reason to
assume that this Thallus wasn't born in the SECOND
CENTURY A.D.
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| User: "Peter Bruells" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 04:33:33 AM |
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"JTEM" <jtem01@gmail.com> writes:
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and
worked in Rome about A.D. 52, wrote to offset the
supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion.
He wasn't born in 52 A.D.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html
It's been a long time, but my understanding of Christianity
is such that the existence of zombies would disprove the
bible.
Why would that be?
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| User: "Splicer" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 05:39:16 AM |
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"JTEM" <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote on 08 Dec 2006:
It's been a long time, but my understanding of Christianity
is such that the existence of zombies would disprove the
bible.
Not necessarily but I can see how the flesh eating kind might put a damper
on things.
On another note, a current astronomer confirms that the Darkness at the
Edge of Town was in fact a Bruce Springsteen album.
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| User: "Volker Hetzer" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
10 Dec 2006 06:18:43 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
[subject]
What about the modern ones?
Lots of Greetings!
Volker
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
12 Dec 2006 08:31:42 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus5.htm
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52,
On what ancient evidence do you claim Thallus was alive in 52 AD?
Answer: There is none. This is an apologist lie.
DH
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| User: "Sjouke Burry" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
08 Dec 2006 01:22:45 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxJesus5.htm
Historical Jesus
What relevance doe your bible thumping have for ASTRO?????
Or demands your religion to annoy, pester and generally
make a nusance of yourself?
Nowhere in the bible have I found a command ordering that.
So be prepared to explain yourself when you get upstairs.....
(and try to live up to the ten commands in spirit al well as
to the letter).
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| User: "Autymn D. C." |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Astronomers Confirm The Darkness At The Death Of Jesus |
09 Dec 2006 10:44:34 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
the reference to Thallus is that the circumstances of Jesus' death were
known and discussed in the Imperial City as early as the middle of the
first century. The fact of Jesus' crucifixion must have been fairly
well known by that time, to the extent that unbelievers like Thallus
thought it necessary to explain the matter of the darkness as a natural
phenomenon. Will Durant observed that Thallus' "argument took the
existence of Christ for granted." [Will Durant, Caesar and Christ,
Simon and Schuster, p. 555.] Neither Jesus nor the darkness at his
death were ever denied as factual. Durant summed up the matter of
Christ's historical existence for himself by saying that it never
occured to the early opponents of Christianity to deny the existence of
Jesus. [Ibid]. Ironically, Thallus' efforts have been turned into the
mainstream of historical proof for Jesus and for the reliability of
Mark's account of the darkness at his death."
dig deper:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/92efbf88fa21c063/be89ce0629f1f6f6?#be89ce0629f1f6f6
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