Convenient that the works of Thallus are lost. Africanus can make up any
crap he likes about what Thallus wrote and no one can gainsay him.

Listen....
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus5.htm

Listen....
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus5.htm



Historical Jesus


Ancient Secular Historians

C. Thallus(c. 50-75AD)

D.Phlegon



1) Confirms Jesus' Story known to Romans of first century.

Jesus and History

On Line Electronic books

Edward C. Wharton


"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian chronographer of the late second century, was
familiar with them and quotes from them. In a comment on the darkness
that fell upon the land during the crucifixion (Mark 15:33), Africanus
says that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun." [F.F. Bruce, The New Testament
Documents, Eerdmens, p. 113.] Africanus stated his objection to the
report arguing that an eclipse of the sun cannot occur during the full
moon, as was the case when Jesus died at Passover time. The force of
the reference to Thallus is that the circumstances of Jesus' death were
known and discussed in the Imperial City as early as the middle of the
first century. The fact of Jesus' crucifixion must have been fairly
well known by that time, to the extent that unbelievers like Thallus
thought it necessary to explain the matter of the darkness as a natural
phenomenon. Will Durant observed that Thallus' "argument took the
existence of Christ for granted." [Will Durant, Caesar and Christ,
Simon and Schuster, p. 555.] Neither Jesus nor the darkness at his
death were ever denied as factual. Durant summed up the matter of
Christ's historical existence for himself by saying that it never
occured to the early opponents of Christianity to deny the existence of
Jesus. [Ibid]. Ironically, Thallus' efforts have been turned into the
mainstream of historical proof for Jesus and for the reliability of
Mark's account of the darkness at his death."


2) Africanus


Glenn Miller's Christian Think Tank



"What was the historical context for this remark? At the time of his
writing, anti-Christians had already been explaining the darkness at
the time of the crucifixion as a purely natural phenomenon--an eclipse.
Origen, for example, had already hinted in his writings that this idea
of it being an eclipse was an invention of the pagans to discredit the
Gospels (DM:1040, n.17)."

"The passage in Africanus occurs in the discussion as to the darkness
that accompanied the Crucifixion of Jesus. The phrase 'this darkness'
indicates that Thallus was referring to (in HIS history) the events
surrounding the death of Jesus. It is clear from this passage that both
Julius AND Thallus took it for granted that Jesus died (and therefore
existed!)."

"What I find interesting about the existence of this interchange is the
context of Julius' purpose in writing. He is writing a
HISTORY/CHRONOLOGY, not an APOLOGETIC per se. He is trying to anchor
dates and merge biblical chronology with the chronologies of Greece,
Rome, etc. In this effort, he is much more concerned about proving that
the darkness was NOT an eclipse than that it was a supernatural event.
The chronology needs to be consistent with astronomical data (as
required for ALL good 'historia'). His concern is historical TRUTH, not
theology."


Glenn Miller [Christiain Think Tank]
What was the background of Julius Africanus?

Let's begin by noting some of the events and activities of his life
(CTEC:103, Schaff:I.191; PAC:307):

* A native of Jerusalem (Aelia)

*Socialized with King Abgar IV the Great at Edessa

*Visited Ararat in search of Noah's ark

*Visited Dead Sea and Jacob's terebinth in Palestine

*Travelled to Rome as embassy from Emmaus

* "At Rome he so impressed the Emperor Alexander Severus (222-35) by
his erudition that the emperor entrusted him with the building of his
library at the Pantheon in Rome" (CTEC:103)--NOTICE: this is
pre-Constantine!

* Wrote a miscellany, similar in content to Pliny's Natural History,
dedicated to Severus.

*Did work in textual criticism of Homer's works: "he knew various
manuscripts of Homer which lay in civic libraries from the old site of
Jerusalem to that fine city Nysa in Caria" (PAC:307)

*"Africanus was the first Christian whose writings were not all
concerned with his faith." (CTEC:103)

*"He was not an ecclesiastic, as far as we know, but a philosopher who
pursued his favorite studies after conversion and made them useful to
the church." (Schaff)

*He knew Hebrew, and of course Greek.

*The later Christian historian Socrates classes him for learning with
Clement of Alexandria and Origen!

*His Chronicle is the foundation of medieval historiography of the
world and the church.

* "He made the first attempt at a systematic chronicle of sacred and
profane history" (Schaff)

* He had literary critical skills and was honest enough to use them
(and confront others on even matters of 'sacred cows'!)--"He once
attended a theological disputation during which Origen appealed to the
History of Susanna, and afterwords wrote to Origen a fatherly rebuke
for failing to notice that the pun, being only possible in Greek,
proves the History of Susanna to be an addition to the original book of
Daniel." (CTEC:103).

Robin Lane Fox cites him as an example of the best educated
dual-culture products of his day--one in which the best of culture was
expressed (PAC, op.cit.)

.................................................... Objection:

J. P. Holding, Teckton Apologetics, Deals with one major objections by
critics,


"This darkness was not recorded by the two greatest contemporary
scientists of the time, Seneca and Pliny the Elder. These writers
attempted to record all known contemporary geological and astronomical
phenomenon, which makes their ommission of this event a serious
deterrent to regarding it as historical."

"This objection is sometimes tendered, and I really wonder if those who
make it have actually read the works of Seneca and Pliny in question -
rather than simply, say, parroting Edward Gibbon's remarks on the
subject! Pliny's work is entitled Natural History [Plin.NH] , and it is
a multi-volumed work covering a wide variety of subjects - georgraphy,
meteorology, mineralogy, zoology, and botany. Volume 2 of this work is
concerned with cosmology and astronomy, and is the place we might
expect Pliny to have recorded this event - if he indeed did intend to
record ALL such events! However, there is absolutely no indication that
this was Pliny's intent - he offers examples, he makes descriptions,
but NOWHERE is there any indication that his work is intended to be an
exhaustive catalog of all possible relevant data!"

"More to the point, it is doubtful that Pliny would have recorded this
event in any case, unless he had been there himself. The darkness at
the crucifixion, as we see from Thallus, defied natural explanation,
and had the character of a miracle; and this is precisely the sort of
event that Pliny would pass over in disdain - for he was a skeptic and
a rationalist of the highest order! Consider these words from Pliny's
pen [ibid., 179, 183]:"

'I deem it a mark of human weakness to seek to discover the shape and
form of God.'

'That that supreme being, whatever it be, pays heed to man's affairs is
a ridiculous notion.'



"Given the above, what would this writer have made of reports of a
miraculous and unexplained darkness? My guess is, he would turn up his
nose and relegate the matter to the wastebasket! He would consider such
reports unworthy of his attention and not worth recording.

What, then, of Seneca and his work, Naturales Questiones [Sen.NQ] ?
There is even less cause to suppose mention of the darkness here.
Seneca's work is mostly theoretical surveys of natural phenomena - by
no means an attempt at an exhaustive catalog of events! - and Seneca is
far more concerned with drawing morals from what he records that with
listing events, of which he does very little.

Bottom line: For this objection to have any force, it must be shown WHY
these writers should have included a reference to the darkness - but
there is simply no evidence that they should have, or would have been
interested in recording it."

..............................................................................
More to the point, however, J.P. This has nothing to do with the basic
fact that Thallus knew of Jesus, his crucifiction and at least he Story
..of the Darkness at Noon, which demonstrates that it did circulate to
Rome in the first century, hense putting the lie to the charges of
Wells and Doherty that Jesus only gradually evolved from an abstract
cosmic fiture to a concete historical one by the Second century!


Robert E. Van Voorst sums up nicely the value of this evidence from
Thallus:


"What can be gained from Thallus? Some fog of uncertainty still
surroundsThallos's statement: its extreme brevity, its third-hand
citation, and theidentity and date of the author. While this fog
prevents us from claimingcertainty, a tradition about Jesus' death is
probably present. LikeChristian tradition as found in the Synoptic
Gospels, Thallus accepts a darkness at the death of Jesus. Against that
tradition, he explains it as anatural eclipse of the sun. We can
conclude that this element of Christian tradition was known outside of
Christian circles and that Thallus felt itnecessary to refute it, thus
giving it even wider exposure. Thallos may havebeen knowledgeable about
other elements of the Christian tradition of Jesus'death--it is
unlikely that he knew only this small element of the story ofJesus'
death apart from any wider context--but his literary remains
cannotyield any certainty on this. His argument makes him (if our
dating iscorrect) the first ancient writer known to us to express
literary oppositionto Christianity. Moreover, Thallos is also the only
non-Christian to writeabout a Jesus tradition before that tradition was
written in the canonicalGospels."[Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside
the New Testament,(Michigan: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2000), p. 23]


3) Phlegon Confirms Jesus' story and Darkness at Noon


Phlegon was a historian who lived in the first century. There are two
books credited to his name: Chronicles and the Olympiads. Little is
known about Phlegon but he made reference to Christ. The first two
quotes are unique to Origen and the last quote below is recorded by
Origen and Philopon.

"Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his
Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . .
. but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions."

Origen Against Celsus

"And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in
whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great
earthquakes which then took place . . . " Origen Against Celsus


"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion
of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not
know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . .
. and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." De.
opif. mund. II21

On 7 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:

"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian chronographer of the late second century, was
familiar with them and quotes from them.

Which is completely irrelevant to the truth or falsity of Thallus's
account. Jesus Christ, are you really that fucking stupid?

On 7 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:

"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian chronographer of the late second century, was
familiar with them and quotes from them.

Which is completely irrelevant to the truth or falsity of Thallus's
account. Jesus Christ, are you really that fucking stupid?
--

"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"

On 7 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:

"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about
A.D. 52, wrote to offset the supernatural element which accompanied the
crucifixion. Though the writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius
Africanus, a Christian chronographer of the late second century, was
familiar with them and quotes from them.

Which is completely irrelevant to the truth or falsity of Thallus's
account. Jesus Christ, are you really that fucking stupid?
--

On 7 Dec 2006 14:59:58 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:

says that "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away
this darkness as an eclipse of the sun."

There's only one problem with that. Since the date of Passover is
determined by the Lunar calendar, and it's around the time of the full
moon, a solar eclipse is quite impossible around Passover.

When a claim contradicts reality, it's not reality that's wrong.

--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Does it ever amaze anyone else how little faith some heterosexuals have
in heterosexuality? It's supposed to be this god-given human instinct
that only the warped and perverted ever stray from; but, it seems, if we
once tell our straight children a message even as mild as "some people
are gay, and that's all right," that'll be enough to send lil' Suzy into
the arms of women forever. It's a wonder the race has survived this
long, really..."
-