| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
02 Jul 2006 07:09:23 PM |
| Object: |
Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 08:10:15 PM |
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"Sound of Strumpet" <> wrote in message
See how catho_licks in their desperation will try any ploy!!
To start with the date of the letter. Sometime between the late first
century and the early third century. You can't even tell us when this guy
lived!!
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is another catho_lick ply. Sneak the name christ in, when that name is
never mentioned.
Was Jesus ever crowned as a King?? NO!!
He said his kingdom was not of this world??
The idiocy of the strumpet!!
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 11:22:40 PM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@lycos.com> wrote
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates
to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment
for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samon gain
from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered
with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing
their wise King? It was just after this that their kingdom was
abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by
the sea; the Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in
dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in
the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he
lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for
good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.
The Jewish King the writer refers to is more likely to have been Simeon bar
Kockba.
--Wax
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 01:12:00 AM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@lycos.com> wrote
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates
to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment
for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samon gain
from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered
with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing
their wise King? It was just after this that their kingdom was
abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by
the sea; the Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in
dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in
the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he
lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for
good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.
The Jewish King the writer refers to is more likely to have been Simeon bar
Kockba.
--Wax
Notice the occult connection to Pythagoras.
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| User: "Iasion" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 07:41:41 PM |
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Did Jesus live at the same time as Pythagoras and Socrates ?
No.
Nothing to do with Jesus.
Iasion
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 08:41:50 PM |
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On 2 Jul 2006 17:09:23 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@lycos.com> wrote:
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century.
And a letter written anywhere from several decades to a couple of
centuries after this "wise king" supposedly lived is supposed to prove
what?
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "D-word" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 08:00:43 PM |
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Sound of Strumpet wrote:
Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus
Correction: A letter cannot witness anything.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 01:07:57 AM |
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D-word wrote:
Sound of Strumpet wrote:
Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus
Correction: A letter cannot witness anything.
An official report to Rome signed by Pilate concerning an insurrection
and a Roman counter-attack would be a very persuasive "opinion."
The redactors won't delete John 11:49 so they add the "addendum" in
verse 51.
verse 49 must belong to the original account.
Now all we need to do is suspend belief and imagine that some Jews
armed with a knotted rope drove out temple police armed with lances and
swords, and occupied the center of Jerusalem, the temple.
"Peacefully" of course.
no one was injured.
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| User: "VtSkier" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 07:48:21 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 09:42:52 PM |
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"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4gr7qoF1n4p5nU1@individual.net...
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
A couple of things stand out about this letter: He doesn't mention Jesus by
name, but *did* say that this Jewish 'king' was 'executed'. He also puts
this Jewish 'king' in the same category of wise men as Socrates and
Pythagoras. He assumes his son knows the identity of the Jewish 'king' he
is referring to.
Were they both Christians? Hardly. Where's a 'our Lord' in any of this? Was
it 'Jesus of Nazareth' that the author of the letter is referring to? Can't
say for sure. But several things that stick out like a sore thumb to *me*
are the facts that Mara Bar-Serapion puts our 'Jesus' in the same league
with Socrates and Pythagoras -- both exceedingly brilliant and *famous*
individuals -- which Jesus was not. Then he implies that the Jews were
'ruined and driven from their land' because of having put Jesus to death.
The Jews didn't do that, the Romans did. Were the Romans driven into a
Diaspora for 'executing' Jesus? No. It can be assumed that Mara Bar Serapion
*might* have been talking here about Jesus of Nazareth, but if he was, he
had a very different image of the man than the one portrayed in the gospels.
Oh, and one other thing: Mara Bar Serapion makes it quite clear that this
mysterious Jewish 'king' died -- and stayed dead. At best, he included a
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 01:37:51 AM |
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In article <12ah11o648umeb@corp.supernews.com>,
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4gr7qoF1n4p5nU1@individual.net...
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
A couple of things stand out about this letter: He doesn't mention Jesus by
name, but *did* say that this Jewish 'king' was 'executed'. He also puts
this Jewish 'king' in the same category of wise men as Socrates and
Pythagoras. He assumes his son knows the identity of the Jewish 'king' he
is referring to.
Were they both Christians? Hardly. Where's a 'our Lord' in any of this? Was
it 'Jesus of Nazareth' that the author of the letter is referring to? Can't
say for sure. But several things that stick out like a sore thumb to *me*
are the facts that Mara Bar-Serapion puts our 'Jesus' in the same league
with Socrates and Pythagoras -- both exceedingly brilliant and *famous*
individuals -- which Jesus was not. Then he implies that the Jews were
'ruined and driven from their land' because of having put Jesus to death.
The Jews didn't do that, the Romans did. Were the Romans driven into a
Diaspora for 'executing' Jesus? No. It can be assumed that Mara Bar Serapion
*might* have been talking here about Jesus of Nazareth, but if he was, he
had a very different image of the man than the one portrayed in the gospels.
Oh, and one other thing: Mara Bar Serapion makes it quite clear that this
mysterious Jewish 'king' died -- and stayed dead. At best, he included a
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
And since the letter was written "...sometime between the late first
century and early third century" (note the wide spread) it could not
have been eyewitness, but at best hearsay evidence.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 02:39:42 AM |
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johac wrote:
In article <12ah11o648umeb@corp.supernews.com>,
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
And since the letter was written "...sometime between the late first
century and early third century" (note the wide spread) it could not
have been eyewitness, but at best hearsay evidence.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Even a cursory review of the Christian writings beginning wth Papyrii
66, 75, and 104 demonstrate that the original account (whether fact or
fable) concerns a local incident within the context of torah observant
Yehudim and no relation to "afterlife" or "universal vicarious
sacrifice" or non-Jews.
The Pauline writings seek to transform the Judaic Messiah cult into an
international cult, thus facilitating synthesis with mystery cult
models, and, secondly, proposing that all believers are the "true Jews"
`Ioudaioi tou en krupto.`
John / Ioannes is a Hellenist, and their interest is residual of the
scene in John chapter 12 when the Hellenists finally threw in their lot
with the torah observant militants. But, following the failure of the
insurrection to effect "divine intervention" they add the addendum in
John 11:51.
(Not taking 'No' for an answer).
Nag Hammadi codices show the widespread disparity in "doctrine" with
Gnostic interpretations dominant.
it is when the Roman Empire is gutted from within and about to collapse
when from Britain comes Constantine employing Lenin's dictum, "to
control the opposition one must lead it."
he then attempts to reabsorb the population back into the empire by
uniting the solar semiotic with the Christ "Soter."
This allows for the establishment of the Lateran Palace as seat of
authority and the subsequent purges by the Roman Emperor whose sole
purpose is to unify the empire under one cultural basis.
the price to be paid is discharging the old religious nomenclature,
thus at least formally the old systems are renounced.
(an oversimplification for brevity)
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
04 Jul 2006 12:19:51 AM |
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In article <1151912382.278132.306590@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" <hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote:
johac wrote:
In article <12ah11o648umeb@corp.supernews.com>,
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
And since the letter was written "...sometime between the late first
century and early third century" (note the wide spread) it could not
have been eyewitness, but at best hearsay evidence.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Even a cursory review of the Christian writings beginning wth Papyrii
66, 75, and 104 demonstrate that the original account (whether fact or
fable) concerns a local incident within the context of torah observant
Yehudim and no relation to "afterlife" or "universal vicarious
sacrifice" or non-Jews.
The Pauline writings seek to transform the Judaic Messiah cult into an
international cult, thus facilitating synthesis with mystery cult
models, and, secondly, proposing that all believers are the "true Jews"
`Ioudaioi tou en krupto.`
More evidence that 'Christianity' Should be called "Pauliantity' of
'Paulism".
John / Ioannes is a Hellenist, and their interest is residual of the
scene in John chapter 12 when the Hellenists finally threw in their lot
with the torah observant militants. But, following the failure of the
insurrection to effect "divine intervention" they add the addendum in
John 11:51.
(Not taking 'No' for an answer).
Nag Hammadi codices show the widespread disparity in "doctrine" with
Gnostic interpretations dominant.
it is when the Roman Empire is gutted from within and about to collapse
when from Britain comes Constantine employing Lenin's dictum, "to
control the opposition one must lead it."
he then attempts to reabsorb the population back into the empire by
uniting the solar semiotic with the Christ "Soter."
This allows for the establishment of the Lateran Palace as seat of
authority and the subsequent purges by the Roman Emperor whose sole
purpose is to unify the empire under one cultural basis.
the price to be paid is discharging the old religious nomenclature,
thus at least formally the old systems are renounced.
(an oversimplification for brevity)
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 12:27:39 AM |
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On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:42:52 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12ah11o648umeb@corp.supernews.com>
"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4gr7qoF1n4p5nU1@individual.net...
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
A couple of things stand out about this letter: He doesn't mention Jesus by
name, but *did* say that this Jewish 'king' was 'executed'. He also puts
this Jewish 'king' in the same category of wise men as Socrates and
Pythagoras. He assumes his son knows the identity of the Jewish 'king' he
is referring to.
Were they both Christians? Hardly. Where's a 'our Lord' in any of this? Was
it 'Jesus of Nazareth' that the author of the letter is referring to? Can't
say for sure. But several things that stick out like a sore thumb to *me*
are the facts that Mara Bar-Serapion puts our 'Jesus' in the same league
with Socrates and Pythagoras -- both exceedingly brilliant and *famous*
individuals -- which Jesus was not. Then he implies that the Jews were
'ruined and driven from their land' because of having put Jesus to death.
The Jews didn't do that, the Romans did. Were the Romans driven into a
Diaspora for 'executing' Jesus? No. It can be assumed that Mara Bar Serapion
*might* have been talking here about Jesus of Nazareth, but if he was, he
had a very different image of the man than the one portrayed in the gospels.
Oh, and one other thing: Mara Bar Serapion makes it quite clear that this
mysterious Jewish 'king' died -- and stayed dead. At best, he included a
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
This 'letter' has been trotted out for around 100 years now.
It has been analysed to death by all and sundry.
It is only of marginal significance, and most certainly does not show
what the fundy loonies pretend that it does.
As you point out, it does not contain any references to Jesus
whatsoever.
(I have read a copy of the original.)
--
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 01:01:57 AM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:42:52 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12ah11o648umeb@corp.supernews.com>
"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4gr7qoF1n4p5nU1@individual.net...
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
A couple of things stand out about this letter: He doesn't mention Jesus by
name, but *did* say that this Jewish 'king' was 'executed'. He also puts
this Jewish 'king' in the same category of wise men as Socrates and
Pythagoras. He assumes his son knows the identity of the Jewish 'king' he
is referring to.
Were they both Christians? Hardly. Where's a 'our Lord' in any of this? Was
it 'Jesus of Nazareth' that the author of the letter is referring to? Can't
say for sure. But several things that stick out like a sore thumb to *me*
are the facts that Mara Bar-Serapion puts our 'Jesus' in the same league
with Socrates and Pythagoras -- both exceedingly brilliant and *famous*
individuals -- which Jesus was not. Then he implies that the Jews were
'ruined and driven from their land' because of having put Jesus to death.
The Jews didn't do that, the Romans did. Were the Romans driven into a
Diaspora for 'executing' Jesus? No. It can be assumed that Mara Bar Serapion
*might* have been talking here about Jesus of Nazareth, but if he was, he
had a very different image of the man than the one portrayed in the gospels.
Oh, and one other thing: Mara Bar Serapion makes it quite clear that this
mysterious Jewish 'king' died -- and stayed dead. At best, he included a
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
This 'letter' has been trotted out for around 100 years now.
It has been analysed to death by all and sundry.
It is only of marginal significance, and most certainly does not show
what the fundy loonies pretend that it does.
As you point out, it does not contain any references to Jesus
whatsoever.
(I have read a copy of the original.)
These people are brain-damaged / nuts / you name it.
what i would like to see is the Proconsul report submitted by Pontius
Pilate to Rome concerning one Yeshua Barabbas, who led an insurrection
and occupied the temple.
The Church "Fathers" mention it, but it is conveniently "unavailable."
if such Yeshua Barabbas existed in the first place.
How have you been ?
Has Eisenbraun's helped you in your research ?
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 02:10:58 AM |
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On 2 Jul 2006 23:01:57 -0700, "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
<hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote:
- Refer: <1151906516.984624.204040@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:42:52 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12ah11o648umeb@corp.supernews.com>
"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4gr7qoF1n4p5nU1@individual.net...
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
A couple of things stand out about this letter: He doesn't mention Jesus by
name, but *did* say that this Jewish 'king' was 'executed'. He also puts
this Jewish 'king' in the same category of wise men as Socrates and
Pythagoras. He assumes his son knows the identity of the Jewish 'king' he
is referring to.
Were they both Christians? Hardly. Where's a 'our Lord' in any of this? Was
it 'Jesus of Nazareth' that the author of the letter is referring to? Can't
say for sure. But several things that stick out like a sore thumb to *me*
are the facts that Mara Bar-Serapion puts our 'Jesus' in the same league
with Socrates and Pythagoras -- both exceedingly brilliant and *famous*
individuals -- which Jesus was not. Then he implies that the Jews were
'ruined and driven from their land' because of having put Jesus to death.
The Jews didn't do that, the Romans did. Were the Romans driven into a
Diaspora for 'executing' Jesus? No. It can be assumed that Mara Bar Serapion
*might* have been talking here about Jesus of Nazareth, but if he was, he
had a very different image of the man than the one portrayed in the gospels.
Oh, and one other thing: Mara Bar Serapion makes it quite clear that this
mysterious Jewish 'king' died -- and stayed dead. At best, he included a
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
This 'letter' has been trotted out for around 100 years now.
It has been analysed to death by all and sundry.
It is only of marginal significance, and most certainly does not show
what the fundy loonies pretend that it does.
As you point out, it does not contain any references to Jesus
whatsoever.
(I have read a copy of the original.)
These people are brain-damaged / nuts / you name it.
what i would like to see is the Proconsul report submitted by Pontius
Pilate to Rome concerning one Yeshua Barabbas, who led an insurrection
and occupied the temple.
I would too!
The Church "Fathers" mention it, but it is conveniently "unavailable."
if such Yeshua Barabbas existed in the first place.
How have you been ?
You don't want to know, take my word for it! ;)
My poor health has been curtailing my language studies, but I am on
the 'improve', as it were.
Has Eisenbraun's helped you in your research ?
Very much so.
In fact: they have done an exceptionally good job of it.
Very professional with the widest range of the most scholarly research
publications that I have managed to access, by a long way.
I thank you for your introduction to them, as I would never have
discovered the source otherwise.
I can recommend them to anyone who wishes to SERIOUSLY research any
ancient Middle-East related subject, especially the Hebrew and
Christian Bibles, and their source material.
"Round of Crumpet" would be well advised to disard the erroneous
recycled toilet paper that he is currently regurgitating, and visit
Eisenbraun's for some real information.
--
.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 05:36:30 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray wrote:
On 2 Jul 2006 23:01:57 -0700, "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
<hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote:
- Refer: <1151906516.984624.204040@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:42:52 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12ah11o648umeb@corp.supernews.com>
"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4gr7qoF1n4p5nU1@individual.net...
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
A couple of things stand out about this letter: He doesn't mention Jesus by
name, but *did* say that this Jewish 'king' was 'executed'. He also puts
this Jewish 'king' in the same category of wise men as Socrates and
Pythagoras. He assumes his son knows the identity of the Jewish 'king' he
is referring to.
Were they both Christians? Hardly. Where's a 'our Lord' in any of this? Was
it 'Jesus of Nazareth' that the author of the letter is referring to? Can't
say for sure. But several things that stick out like a sore thumb to *me*
are the facts that Mara Bar-Serapion puts our 'Jesus' in the same league
with Socrates and Pythagoras -- both exceedingly brilliant and *famous*
individuals -- which Jesus was not. Then he implies that the Jews were
'ruined and driven from their land' because of having put Jesus to death.
The Jews didn't do that, the Romans did. Were the Romans driven into a
Diaspora for 'executing' Jesus? No. It can be assumed that Mara Bar Serapion
*might* have been talking here about Jesus of Nazareth, but if he was, he
had a very different image of the man than the one portrayed in the gospels.
Oh, and one other thing: Mara Bar Serapion makes it quite clear that this
mysterious Jewish 'king' died -- and stayed dead. At best, he included a
'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That* and
$3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
Greywolf
This 'letter' has been trotted out for around 100 years now.
It has been analysed to death by all and sundry.
It is only of marginal significance, and most certainly does not show
what the fundy loonies pretend that it does.
As you point out, it does not contain any references to Jesus
whatsoever.
(I have read a copy of the original.)
These people are brain-damaged / nuts / you name it.
what i would like to see is the Proconsul report submitted by Pontius
Pilate to Rome concerning one Yeshua Barabbas, who led an insurrection
and occupied the temple.
I would too!
The Church "Fathers" mention it, but it is conveniently "unavailable."
if such Yeshua Barabbas existed in the first place.
How have you been ?
You don't want to know, take my word for it! ;)
My poor health has been curtailing my language studies, but I am on
the 'improve', as it were.
Has Eisenbraun's helped you in your research ?
Very much so.
In fact: they have done an exceptionally good job of it.
Very professional with the widest range of the most scholarly research
publications that I have managed to access, by a long way.
I thank you for your introduction to them, as I would never have
discovered the source otherwise.
I can recommend them to anyone who wishes to SERIOUSLY research any
ancient Middle-East related subject, especially the Hebrew and
Christian Bibles, and their source material.
"Round of Crumpet" would be well advised to disard the erroneous
recycled toilet paper that he is currently regurgitating, and visit
Eisenbraun's for some real information.
it is unlikely most will accept such advice as it seems the last thing
people want to know is what the source texts actually say.
Hope you are feeling better soon.
.
|
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 11:44:47 PM |
|
|
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Greywolf
(greywolf@cybrzn.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
A couple of things stand out about this letter: He doesn't mention
Jesus by name, but *did* say that this Jewish 'king' was 'executed'.
He also puts this Jewish 'king' in the same category of wise men as
Socrates and Pythagoras. He assumes his son knows the identity of the
Jewish 'king' he is referring to.
Were they both Christians? Hardly. Where's a 'our Lord' in any of
this? Was it 'Jesus of Nazareth' that the author of the letter is
referring to? Can't say for sure. But several things that stick out
like a sore thumb to *me* are the facts that Mara Bar-Serapion puts
our 'Jesus' in the same league with Socrates and Pythagoras -- both
exceedingly brilliant and *famous* individuals -- which Jesus was not.
Then he implies that the Jews were 'ruined and driven from their land'
because of having put Jesus to death. The Jews didn't do that, the
Romans did. Were the Romans driven into a Diaspora for 'executing'
Jesus? No. It can be assumed that Mara Bar Serapion *might* have been
talking here about Jesus of Nazareth, but if he was, he had a very
different image of the man than the one portrayed in the gospels. Oh,
and one other thing: Mara Bar Serapion makes it quite clear that this
mysterious Jewish 'king' died -- and stayed dead. At best, he included
a 'twisted' version of a Jesus story he and his son had heard. *That*
and $3.50 will get you a caffe Latte, to go.
To hell with it. Cafe Latte is just coffee with sugar and *****.
I'll take the .75 coffee, black.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 11:03:31 AM |
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Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
So, Mara Ben-Serapio, was not of Jesus's generation
and as a witness to actual existance of Jesus is hardly relevant.
--
Join the anti-willful-religious-stupidity brigade today.
You will be glad you did.
Our motto: Slap! "Wake up stupid!"
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 09:43:31 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:03:31 -0500, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12aifu8gc89l2ce@corp.supernews.com>
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
So, Mara Ben-Serapio, was not of Jesus's generation
and as a witness to actual existance of Jesus is hardly relevant.
Agreed, that's quite apart from the fact that it does not mention
Jesus at all.
--
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
04 Jul 2006 02:49:57 PM |
|
|
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:8dlja2pc1elm1jpdhjcnnddsrncvs43hkr@4ax.com...
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:03:31 -0500, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12aifu8gc89l2ce@corp.supernews.com>
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
So, Mara Ben-Serapio, was not of Jesus's generation
and as a witness to actual existance of Jesus is hardly relevant.
Agreed, that's quite apart from the fact that it does not mention
Jesus at all.
No. It mentions the wise King who was executed shortly before the
destruction of Jerusalem. This can only mean Jesus.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
04 Jul 2006 06:51:44 PM |
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"Malcolm" <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:jL-dnUSN1okLWjfZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com...
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:8dlja2pc1elm1jpdhjcnnddsrncvs43hkr@4ax.com...
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:03:31 -0500, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <12aifu8gc89l2ce@corp.supernews.com>
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
So, Mara Ben-Serapio, was not of Jesus's generation
and as a witness to actual existance of Jesus is hardly relevant.
Agreed, that's quite apart from the fact that it does not mention
Jesus at all.
No. It mentions the wise King who was executed shortly before
the destruction of Jerusalem. This can only mean Jesus.
It could also refer to Simon Bar Kokhba who led the 2nd Jewish revolt
against Rome in 132 c.e. Bar Kokhba was supported by the sanhedrin and
minted his own coins. He was recognized as the messiah by Rabbi Akiba.
After the Bar Kokhba revolt was crushed, Emperor Hadrian exiled the Jews
from Jerusalem, and Judaea was renamed "Syria Palaestina", after the
Philistines. It is still known as "Palistine" today.
--Wax
.
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| User: "shriven leper" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 08:04:23 PM |
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|
On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:48:21 -0400, VtSkier <VtSkier@nospam.net>
wrote:
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Uhm, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but...
I see no mention of "Jesus" or any of its variants, I see no
mention of "Christ" or any of its variants. I see no name
given to the "Jews...wise King".
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
In the NT, of course. Obviously he was a king who never reigned on
earth, his kingdom being thought of as heaven, as viceroy at god's
"right hand". The lack of political success was one factor that made
non-Jesus-Party Judaism reject his so-called "kingly" sovereignty. A
failed messiah who was never an earthly king.
- sl -
.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 11:06:52 PM |
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shriven leper wrote:
On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:48:21 -0400, VtSkier <VtSkier@nospam.net>
wrote:
....
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
In the NT, of course. Obviously he was a king who never reigned on
earth, his kingdom being thought of as heaven, as viceroy at god's
"right hand". The lack of political success was one factor that made
non-Jesus-Party Judaism reject his so-called "kingly" sovereignty. A
failed messiah who was never an earthly king.
Are you king of the Jews?
That is what you say.
And then executed by the Romans not the Jews.
--
If you want to understand Jews, look to the West Bank.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3665
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Larry Shiff http://www.giwersworld.org/computers/newsagent.phtml a8
.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 05:41:25 AM |
|
|
Matt Giwer wrote:
shriven leper wrote:
On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:48:21 -0400, VtSkier <VtSkier@nospam.net>
wrote:
...
Further, where is is it written that Jesus or "the Christ"
was ever a "king"?
In the NT, of course. Obviously he was a king who never reigned on
earth, his kingdom being thought of as heaven, as viceroy at god's
"right hand". The lack of political success was one factor that made
non-Jesus-Party Judaism reject his so-called "kingly" sovereignty. A
failed messiah who was never an earthly king.
Are you king of the Jews?
That is what you say.
And then executed by the Romans not the Jews.
Precisely.
John 11:49 a pivotal line in the surviving redaction.
It states explicitly the circumstances for the death of this Yeshua
character.
The charges are listed elsewhere:
"we found this fellow perverting the nation, forbidding tribute to
Caesar,
and saying that he himself is an anointed one, a king."
The most archaic texts use kakourgoi but later redactions try to
separate Yeshua from the other "criminals" --although the text also
says they are all under the same condemnation.
Yeshua IS Barabbas.
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
03 Jul 2006 11:44:24 PM |
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|
"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" <hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote
Precisely.
John 11:49 a pivotal line in the surviving redaction.
It states explicitly the circumstances for the death of this Yeshua
character.
The charges are listed elsewhere:
"we found this fellow perverting the nation, forbidding tribute to
Caesar,
and saying that he himself is an anointed one, a king."
The most archaic texts use kakourgoi but later redactions try to
separate Yeshua from the other "criminals" --although the text also
says they are all under the same condemnation.
Yeshua IS Barabbas.
So Barabbas existed, I take it?
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
04 Jul 2006 05:35:11 PM |
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|
"Malcolm" <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote
"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
Precisely.
John 11:49 a pivotal line in the surviving redaction.
It states explicitly the circumstances for the death of this Yeshua
character.
The charges are listed elsewhere:
"we found this fellow perverting the nation, forbidding tribute to
Caesar, and saying that he himself is an anointed one, a king."
The most archaic texts use kakourgoi but later redactions try
to separate Yeshua from the other "criminals" --although the
text also says they are all under the same condemnation.
Yeshua IS Barabbas.
So Barabbas existed, I take it?
Rather Barabbas existed or not is hard to say, but there is an interesting
variation of "Matthew" in the Caesarean text in which the name "Jesus" is
placed before "Barabbas". This happens twice:
Matthew 27 NETBible http://www.bible.org/netbible/
27:16 At that time they had in custody a notorious
prisoner named Jesus Barabbas. 27:17 So after
they had assembled, Pilate said to them, "Whom do
you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or
Jesus who is called the Christ?"
The name "Barabbas" can be translated as "Son of the Father", which is
similar to Jesus' claim to be the "Son of God."
Verse 17 also makes better sense if Barabbas is also called "Jesus",
otherwise, a mere "Jesus" would have been a sufficient appellation to
distinguish the two.
--Wax
.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
05 Jul 2006 06:53:59 AM |
|
|
Weatherwax wrote:
"Malcolm" <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote
"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" wrote
Precisely.
John 11:49 a pivotal line in the surviving redaction.
It states explicitly the circumstances for the death of this Yeshua
character.
The charges are listed elsewhere:
"we found this fellow perverting the nation, forbidding tribute to
Caesar, and saying that he himself is an anointed one, a king."
The most archaic texts use kakourgoi but later redactions try
to separate Yeshua from the other "criminals" --although the
text also says they are all under the same condemnation.
Yeshua IS Barabbas.
So Barabbas existed, I take it?
Rather Barabbas existed or not is hard to say, but there is an interesting
variation of "Matthew" in the Caesarean text in which the name "Jesus" is
placed before "Barabbas". This happens twice:
Matthew 27 NETBible http://www.bible.org/netbible/
27:16 At that time they had in custody a notorious
prisoner named Jesus Barabbas. 27:17 So after
they had assembled, Pilate said to them, "Whom do
you want me to release for you, Jesus Barabbas or
Jesus who is called the Christ?"
The name "Barabbas" can be translated as "Son of the Father", which is
similar to Jesus' claim to be the "Son of God."
Verse 17 also makes better sense if Barabbas is also called "Jesus",
otherwise, a mere "Jesus" would have been a sufficient appellation to
distinguish the two.
--Wax
Iesou / Yeshua / Jesus being "Barabbas" is the key to the entire New
testament.
John 11:51 et cetera is a redaction to extend his death to a universal
sacrifice.
when in fact Caiaphas and the priests delivered him to prevent a Roman
massacre of the `ethnos`
why were the priests debating in the first place ?
simply look at Masada or the 6 CE Messianic revolt
the danger of Roman massacre was real
there was no IMT or Hague at that time
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Letter Witnesses About Jesus |
02 Jul 2006 09:56:21 PM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/serapion.htm
The Jews' 'wise king' (the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime
between the late first century and early third century. This letter is
now in the British Museum. According to professor F F Bruce:
Mara Bar-Serapion was in prison at the time, but he wrote to encourage
his son in the pursuit of wisdom, and pointed out that those who
persecuted wise men were overtaken by misfortune. He instances the
deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ.
This is what Bar-Serapion said:
What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death?
Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What
advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagoras? In a
moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews
gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their
kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the
Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the
Jews ruined and driven from their land, live in dispersion. But
Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato.
Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor
did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he
had given.
FF Bruce 'The New Testament Documents: are they reliable?' chapter 10
Your point being? A first century Syrian heard a silly story and
believed it --- so what? We all know that the story was circulating in
the Palestine region at that time. Your idea of corroborative evidence
reminds me of the guy who tells you that he went on a hunting trip and
stood next to an oak tree and shot a buck at 500 yards and if you want
corrobarative evidence he is willing to take you to the forest and show
you the oak tree.
Mike
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