Another example of bush not getting it.

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Mike Painter"
Date:	27 Oct 2003 12:39:04 PM
Object:	Another example of bush not getting it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
....
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."
Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
.....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."
I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.
Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.
(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had great
covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the pictures of
all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day. It made an impact
on the middle class readers.)
.

User: "Kevin Williams"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	27 Oct 2003 09:57:13 PM

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had great
covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the pictures of
all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day. It made an impact
on the middle class readers.)

Thank you for your service to your country. You have my greatest
respect. Well, not my greatest respect, because that would be
reserved for those who gave their lives to protect the lives of
others, but most of my respect.. [snip Monty Python's Dennis Moore
routine].
Nevertheless, I fail to see how the American experience in Vietnam is
relevant to our current experience in Iraq. The Vietnamese did not
kill thousands of our people in New York, Washington, and
Pennsylvania. Arab Muslims did.
Furthermore, if Vietnam had been like Iraq, we would have invaded
North Vietnam, conquered Hanoi, and deposed Ho Chi Minh. There is no
significant comparison that I can see.
I'm frankly puzzled by the reaction of many of my fellow atheists to
the attacks of 11 September 2001. I've seen a lot of posts to the
effect that, well, yeah, Muslims are bad, but what about those
Christians? I simply can't understand how anyone can think that there
is a greater danger to the civlized world right now than Islam.
Please don't take my post as a defense of Christians. In their time
they, too, were the greatest hindrance to civilization. But that time
has passsed. Islam is now the greatest danger we face.
--
#351
.

User: "eyelessgame"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 11:24:41 AM

Kevin "A Towelhead Is A Towelhead" Williams <kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote in message news:<bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com>...
[snip]

Nevertheless, I fail to see how the American experience in Vietnam is
relevant to our current experience in Iraq. The Vietnamese did not
kill thousands of our people in New York, Washington, and
Pennsylvania. Arab Muslims did.

Eastern Asians killed thousands of our people at Pearl Harbor. It
makes precisely as much sense to blame Vietnam for Pearl Harbor as to
blame Iraq for 9/11.

I'm frankly puzzled by the reaction of many of my fellow atheists to
the attacks of 11 September 2001.

That's because most intelligent people see 9/11 for what it was: a
crime.
Non-state-sponsored terrorism is a crime. Crime happens, you find out
the specific people responsible, and take them down. As we started to
do -- and like many atheists and liberals, I supported our efforts to
bring Osama bin Laden to justice.
What you do not do is surrender the benefits of civilization -- peace
and liberty -- because of the acts of criminals; you merely make
limited regrettable exceptions in the pursuit of those responsible for
specific criminal acts, and as quickly as possible settle the account
and return to the business of civilization.
Yet surrendering to the militaristic savage is what we have done.
Bin Laden turned out to be hard to catch (and has now left the
fundamentalist whackjobs to regroup and retake that country), and the
unelected fraud in the White House decided instead to pursue a
personal vendetta (and enrich his corporate donors) by destroying a
completely different country, while lying about his reasons for doing
so and encouraging Americans in a lie thinking that invasion of Iraq
is somehow justified by the crime of 9/11.
And you participate in this lie.
If a Portugese group had been responsible for a great crime in
America, should we invade Germany in retaliation? After all, it was
Europeans. One European is as guilty as any other, right?
Repeat after me until you get this:
Osama bin Laden was a devout Sunni Muslim from Saudi Arabia, living in
Afghanistan.
Saddam Hussein was a superficially-Muslim Shi'ite ruling Iraq.
THEY FUCKING HATED EACH OTHER.
Now, thanks to our own government's actions, the regrouping remains of
both their organizations are allied with one another, because our
government has convinced just about all one billion Muslims in the
world that we mean to attack them all -- that not a single one is
safe.
We cannot invade them all. We cannot kill them all -- even if we were
genocidally maniacal enough even to consider the notion. We must
coexist with them. We had better have friends among them. Yet by
reacting like brutal savages, we've alienated all our potential and
actual friends and allies -- including the non-Muslim staunch allies
of Europe.
And the reason our allies have abandoned us if for one simple reason:
our invasion of Iraq was no more justified than Germany's 1938
invasion of Poland, and they are *justifiably* frightened that a
similar world-shattering war may be on its heels.

I've seen a lot of posts to the
effect that, well, yeah, Muslims are bad, but what about those
Christians? I simply can't understand how anyone can think that there
is a greater danger to the civlized world right now than Islam.

Islamic fundamentalists can't vote for self-fulfilling eschatological
prophecy. Fundamentalist Christians can -- and in 2004, they will, in
frighteningly large numbers. *That* is a greater danger to the world
than fundamentalist Islam.

Please don't take my post as a defense of Christians. In their time
they, too, were the greatest hindrance to civilization. But that time
has passsed. Islam is now the greatest danger we face.

As a direct result of our illegal invasion of Iraq, Iran and North
Korea have accelerated their nuclear arms programs -- because the mere
threat of programs are clearly not sufficient in the face of the
madman who rules our nation, and they reasonably believe the sole path
to avoiding invasion is to have actual working weapons of mass
destruction (which Iraq, you'll note, lacked). Were I in their
position, listening to the violent blustering fool in the White House,
I would do everything in my power to gain nuclear capability before
that fool decides I'm next.
I would also do everything in my power, were I Iran or Syria, to see
that the situation in Iraq stays as unstable and incendiary as
possible, to keep American forces tied down there, because Iran and
Syria see this as their sole path to safety -- until they become
nuclear powers.
The actions of our own government are a far greater threat to the
world than fundamentalist Islam.
I do not blame you. You, like many Americans, were so frightened and
damaged by 9/11 that you think it somehow changed everything. It
didn't -- it was just a crime, like the Oklahoma federal building
bombing was just a crime. Buildings have been blown up by terrorists
before. The World Trade Center had been a target before.
But 9/11 was larger in scope than previous acts of terror, and the
people responsible were foreign, which makes them scary and
unfamiliar. So people like you have decided that all foreigners who
look like them are as bad as them. You're unconsciously promoting
bigotry -- read your words. Then I invite you to return to acting
like a civilized human being.
Because short-sighted savagery *is* the greatest threat to the world.
But it wears many hats -- yours, for instance.
eyelessgame
.

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 12:25:30 PM

"eyelessgame" <aamp@oro.net> wrote

Non-state-sponsored terrorism is a crime.

I'm not willing to say that 9/11 was definitely not sponsored by
any state, but I will say that 9/11 was definitely not sponsored
by Iraq.
.

User: "Woden"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	27 Oct 2003 10:34:55 PM

Kevin Williams <kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote in
news:bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com:

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.h
tml?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the
course to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by
these killers," Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after
meeting with L. Paul Bremer III, the United States' chief
administrator in Iraq. ...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station,
said he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion.
"It is a holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal
act," Mr. al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had
mistakenly shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran
toward the station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be
independently confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they
had shot anyone. ....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding
"If the Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We
were told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends
re-joined to do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the
pictures of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had
great covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the
pictures of all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day.
It made an impact on the middle class readers.)

I fail to see where any Iraqis killed people in the US.

Furthermore, if Vietnam had been like Iraq, we would have invaded
North Vietnam, conquered Hanoi, and deposed Ho Chi Minh. There is no
significant comparison that I can see.

Just a few American soldiers dying each day in a war that most Americans
don't want, a war with no real plan to execute properly or end cleanly, a
guerrilla war against a population that we can't separate into "good
guys" and "bad guys" and use our military might to its advantage,...

I'm frankly puzzled by the reaction of many of my fellow atheists to
the attacks of 11 September 2001. I've seen a lot of posts to the
effect that, well, yeah, Muslims are bad, but what about those
Christians? I simply can't understand how anyone can think that there
is a greater danger to the civlized world right now than Islam.

No doubt, Islam is a danger. But I fail to see how the war in Iraq has
done anything to resolve that problem.

Please don't take my post as a defense of Christians. In their time
they, too, were the greatest hindrance to civilization. But that time
has passsed. Islam is now the greatest danger we face.

I think the greatest danger we face right now is a group of xian fanatics
in Washington who control the mightiest military on the planet. A group,
who if they aren't actively trying to force "Armageddon", are not trying
to prevent it either. A group who seem willing to fight a "Holy War"
with the muslims to determine once and for all who gets rights to the
planet.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	29 Oct 2003 09:09:19 PM

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:34:55 -0000, Woden <woden@charter.net>, Message
ID: <Xns9421F00F98AF7wodencharternet@216.168.3.44> wrote in alt.atheism;

Kevin Williams <kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote in
news:bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com:

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.h
tml?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the
course to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by
these killers," Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after
meeting with L. Paul Bremer III, the United States' chief
administrator in Iraq. ...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station,
said he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion.
"It is a holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal
act," Mr. al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had
mistakenly shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran
toward the station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be
independently confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they
had shot anyone. ....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding
"If the Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We
were told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends
re-joined to do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the
pictures of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had
great covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the
pictures of all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day.
It made an impact on the middle class readers.)

I fail to see where any Iraqis killed people in the US.

Furthermore, if Vietnam had been like Iraq, we would have invaded
North Vietnam, conquered Hanoi, and deposed Ho Chi Minh. There is no
significant comparison that I can see.

Yep. Vietnam all over again... :\

No doubt, Islam is a danger. But I fail to see how the war in Iraq has
done anything to resolve that problem.

Such has created a hefty problem.

Please don't take my post as a defense of Christians. In their time
they, too, were the greatest hindrance to civilization. But that time
has passsed. Islam is now the greatest danger we face.

Yes.

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	28 Oct 2003 03:52:12 PM

Kevin Williams <kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote in message news:<bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com>...

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had great
covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the pictures of
all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day. It made an impact
on the middle class readers.)

Not at all. If Vietnam had been like Iraq we would have invaded Belgium.
jwk
.

User: "stoney"
Title: AQOTM Nomination	29 Oct 2003 09:10:17 PM

On 28 Oct 2003 13:52:12 -0800,

(jwk), Message ID:
<c6f5ba32.0310281352.23f96661@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
Re: Another example of bush not getting it.

Kevin Williams <kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote in message news:<bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com>...

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had great
covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the pictures of
all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day. It made an impact
on the middle class readers.)

/begin

Not at all. If Vietnam had been like Iraq we would have invaded Belgium.

Seconds?

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.

User: "Tink"
Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination Modified.	30 Oct 2003 06:20:15 AM

stoney wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 13:52:12 -0800,

(jwk), Message ID:
<c6f5ba32.0310281352.23f96661@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;

Re: Another example of bush not getting it.

Kevin Williams <kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote in message news:<bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com>...

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had great
covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the pictures of
all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day. It made an impact
on the middle class readers.)

/begin

Not at all. If Vietnam had been like Iraq we would have invaded Belgium.

Seconds?

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}

begin modified nomination (provides context for the quote)
Furthermore, if Vietnam had been like Iraq, we would have invaded

North Vietnam, conquered Hanoi, and deposed Ho Chi Minh. There is no
significant comparison that I can see.

/begin

Not at all. If Vietnam had been like Iraq we would have invaded Belgium.

Seconded.
--
It seems odd that those who scoff at sun worshippers are apt to worship
a vacuum.
The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS# 8808
EAC Chairman, Division of Skydiving and Sushi consumption.
.

User: *"nemo"*
Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination Modified.	31 Oct 2003 04:55:12 AM

In article <9OudnSvueuifnzyiRVn-jw@comcast.com>,
Tink <kjgrish@comcast.net> wrote:

stoney wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 13:52:12 -0800,

(jwk), Message ID:
<c6f5ba32.0310281352.23f96661@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;

Re: Another example of bush not getting it.

Kevin Williams <kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote in message
news:<bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com>...

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html
?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the
course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these
killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul
Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station,
said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If
the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined
to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the
pictures
of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had great
covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the pictures
of
all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day. It made an
impact
on the middle class readers.)

/begin

Not at all. If Vietnam had been like Iraq we would have invaded Belgium.

Seconds?

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}

begin modified nomination (provides context for the quote)
Furthermore, if Vietnam had been like Iraq, we would have invaded

North Vietnam, conquered Hanoi, and deposed Ho Chi Minh. There is no
significant comparison that I can see.

/begin

Not at all. If Vietnam had been like Iraq we would have invaded Belgium.

Seconded.

Recorded.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.

User: "Yang, What About Overrated White Athletes Like Jeremy Shockey?"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	27 Oct 2003 11:30:03 PM

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:57:13 -0600, Kevin Williams
<kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote:

None of whom Iraqis. Why aren't you blaming Vietnam for Pearl Harbor?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balanced' budget: -525 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -344 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: "Mark Richardson"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	27 Oct 2003 10:20:53 PM

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:57:13 -0600, Kevin Williams
<kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote:

The Vietnamese did not
kill thousands of our people in New York, Washington, and
Pennsylvania. Arab Muslims did.

Not Iraqis though.
They were Saudis, and an Egyptian.
They were working for Al Qaeda, not Saddam.

Muslims died on 9/11.
Men, women, children. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists.
You may as well say men attacked on 9/11 (which is factually correct)
so lets get rid of/make war on all the men.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
.

User: "Kevin Williams"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	27 Oct 2003 11:32:19 PM

Mark Richardson <mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:57:13 -0600, Kevin Williams
<kevinw@spamblocked.com> wrote:
The Vietnamese did not

kill thousands of our people in New York, Washington, and
Pennsylvania. Arab Muslims did.

Not Iraqis though.

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims. You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.
I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

They were Saudis, and an Egyptian.

So, they were not Arab Muslims? Pardon my ignorance. I guess I was
mistaken. Yes, I know that the Arabs who currently rule Egypt were
not the original inhabitants of the region, but the current rulers are
Arabs.

They were working for Al Qaeda, not Saddam.

An interesting distinction. They were working for Arab Muslims who
want to kill us, not Arab Muslims who want to kill us. I see...

Right. You may as well say that Arab Muslims with facial hair
attacked us (which is factually correct) so let's get rid of all Arab
Muslims with facial hair
I'm sure you would not say so, nor would I. I just want to kill all
of the Arab Muslim men who want to kill us. If you do not want to
kill all of the Arab Muslim men who want to kill us, just say so.
I'm sure they would grant you dispensation. Untll they find out you
are an infidel.
--
#351
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	28 Oct 2003 08:17:42 AM

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:32:19 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims.

Okay. So why are we spending all our resources getting bogged down in Iraq?

You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.

Yeah, there are people who want to kill us. They're called "terrorists"
and they're not limited to Arab anything or even Arabs. Or was the OKC
bombing a love note?

I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

Out of, what, some billion or so Muslims, the actions of a relative
handful indicate what ALL of them think?
Funny, if that many people are trying to kill us, you'd think more of us
would be dead...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - From alt.atheism only
"The computer revolution is over. We lost."
.

User: "Erica"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	28 Oct 2003 12:53:23 PM

In article <pan.2003.10.28.14.17.41.813167@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:32:19 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims.

Okay. So why are we spending all our resources getting bogged down in Iraq?

You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.

Yeah, there are people who want to kill us. They're called "terrorists"
and they're not limited to Arab anything or even Arabs. Or was the OKC
bombing a love note?

I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

Out of, what, some billion or so Muslims, the actions of a relative
handful indicate what ALL of them think?

Some have said the same of Christians. When I said about a week ago that
many Christians are not like the ones that shove their religion in your
faces on a constant basis, I was told that since they are silent, they
must also approve. So would that mean that the silent Muslims also
approve? I would say that both statements are false. Extremists come in
every religion, and are not necessarily representative.

Funny, if that many people are trying to kill us, you'd think more of us
would be dead...

Terrorism is often the tool of the weak and poor. If these folks had
more resources, such as manpower or money, they'd most likely have an
army and wouldn't have to resort to terrorism to make their point.
Erica
--
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
.

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	29 Oct 2003 08:06:18 AM

Erica <scribe53151NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<scribe53151NOSPAM-F8F0D1.12532328102003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.10.28.14.17.41.813167@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:32:19 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims.

Okay. So why are we spending all our resources getting bogged down in Iraq?

You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.

Yeah, there are people who want to kill us. They're called "terrorists"
and they're not limited to Arab anything or even Arabs. Or was the OKC
bombing a love note?

I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

Out of, what, some billion or so Muslims, the actions of a relative
handful indicate what ALL of them think?

Actually, while I wouldn't go so far as to say that they all approve,
it was noted (but not widely reported) that much of the muslim world
celebrated 9-11. The silent majority may not be bombing us, but many
(most?) of them are glad when we are bombed. This probalby has more
to do with their preception of us being against them than any
religious dogma. Frankly I think we could accomplish a lot by
destroying Al-Jazeera, which I see as promoting the terrorist agenda,
not fair and balanced journalism. (Of course the same could be said
for Fox News.)
jwk
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	29 Oct 2003 05:13:56 PM

On 29 Oct 2003 06:06:18 -0800,

(jwk) wrote:

Erica <scribe53151NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<scribe53151NOSPAM-F8F0D1.12532328102003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.10.28.14.17.41.813167@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:32:19 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims.

Okay. So why are we spending all our resources getting bogged down in Iraq?

You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.

Yeah, there are people who want to kill us. They're called "terrorists"
and they're not limited to Arab anything or even Arabs. Or was the OKC
bombing a love note?

I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

Out of, what, some billion or so Muslims, the actions of a relative
handful indicate what ALL of them think?

You have to understand why they regard us as the great satan - and no,
it's not for religious reasons.

jwk

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 07:59:37 AM

Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<gqg0qv46uase4ff2dlnmeu0tfmg3gl4e32@4ax.com>...

On 29 Oct 2003 06:06:18 -0800,

(jwk) wrote:

Erica <scribe53151NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<scribe53151NOSPAM-F8F0D1.12532328102003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.10.28.14.17.41.813167@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:32:19 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims.

Okay. So why are we spending all our resources getting bogged down in Iraq?

You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.

Yeah, there are people who want to kill us. They're called "terrorists"
and they're not limited to Arab anything or even Arabs. Or was the OKC
bombing a love note?

I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

Out of, what, some billion or so Muslims, the actions of a relative
handful indicate what ALL of them think?

You have to understand why they regard us as the great satan - and no,
it's not for religious reasons.

Oh I think I have some idea about their *preceptions of us, and why,
but what can I do about that? They don't like the Israelie situation
and see us as supporting it. They don't like that we station infidel
troops on their lands (which *is a religious reason). They think we
only show an interest in the Middle East because of oil. (Which is
mostly correct, but what should we be interested in? Sand?) And they
blame Western Crusades for the fall of their civilization from it
pinnicle. (Even though, to the objective, it was caused by religious
fundamentalism. Which to be honest probably got a boost from the
Crusades.) What else? I'm sure their are lots of other reasons, but
what does it matter. Justified or not, those who regard us as evil
incarnate are a danger to us. Understanding their reasoning does not
alleviate that danger. If we could talk them around, that would help.
If we could make some change in ourselves (that were reasonable),
that might help. But by and large nothing is going to change their
opinion of us, so trying to understand them makes little difference.
Remember that the US fought to help the muslims in Bosnia. Did we get
any credit for that in the Middle East? No. Don't count on good
deeds to remove prejudice.
jwk
.

User: "Erica"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 04:17:42 PM

(jwk) wrote in message news:<c6f5ba32.0310300559.2282d7f4@posting.google.com>...

Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<gqg0qv46uase4ff2dlnmeu0tfmg3gl4e32@4ax.com>...

On 29 Oct 2003 06:06:18 -0800,

(jwk) wrote:

Erica <scribe53151NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<scribe53151NOSPAM-F8F0D1.12532328102003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.10.28.14.17.41.813167@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:32:19 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims.

Okay. So why are we spending all our resources getting bogged down in Iraq?

You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.

Yeah, there are people who want to kill us. They're called "terrorists"
and they're not limited to Arab anything or even Arabs. Or was the OKC
bombing a love note?

I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

Out of, what, some billion or so Muslims, the actions of a relative
handful indicate what ALL of them think?

You have to understand why they regard us as the great satan - and no,
it's not for religious reasons.

I suppose you're right to some extent. Damage done. But I do wish our
foreign policy wasn't as short-sighted, opportunistic, disingenuous
and situational as it is. Our "friends" become our enemies -- enemies
that have our weapons and have been trained by us. We helped those in
Afganistan while they were fighting the Russians, and then not helping
them rebuild after the war. You'd think we'd have learned not to do
that after WWI and II. But no.
As for oil, of course that's what we're there for. As you say, what
else would we be interested in. *So why don't we just say so.* But no,
here comes the PR department. In the Gulf War, we sold it by saying
that we were going in to save poor defenseless Kuwait from invasion
(unspoken: and their oil.) If we are in the business of saving folks
from invasion, then we missed a few countries along the way.
And in the Iraq war (another case of "friend" turned foe) the spin
doctors selling the thing started off saying that we were seeking
weapons of mass distruction (a somewhat more honest justification) and
then switched to saying that we were there to liberate the Iraqui
people, because it went down better with the American public. But once
again, if we were in the liberation business, we missed a few
countries along the way.
It might not help the present situation, but understanding why much of
the world is angry with us (ie, waking up and smell ourselves once in
a while) could indeed help our relations with the rest of the world if
we would act on the information. But I for one don't think that will
ever happen.
Erica
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	31 Oct 2003 06:17:04 PM

On 30 Oct 2003 14:17:42 -0800,

(Erica), Message
ID: <6dfe32b8.0310301417.4efca4cc@posting.google.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;

(jwk) wrote in message news:<c6f5ba32.0310300559.2282d7f4@posting.google.com>...

Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<gqg0qv46uase4ff2dlnmeu0tfmg3gl4e32@4ax.com>...

On 29 Oct 2003 06:06:18 -0800,

(jwk) wrote:

Erica <scribe53151NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<scribe53151NOSPAM-F8F0D1.12532328102003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.10.28.14.17.41.813167@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:32:19 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

I didn't say they were Iraqis. I said they were Arab Muslims.

Okay. So why are we spending all our resources getting bogged down in Iraq?

You
know, members of the Ummah. The ones who want to kill you and me.

Yeah, there are people who want to kill us. They're called "terrorists"
and they're not limited to Arab anything or even Arabs. Or was the OKC
bombing a love note?

I'm trying to point out that there is no distinction in the Muslim
world between Christians, Jews, and atheists. We are all infidels to
Muslims.

Out of, what, some billion or so Muslims, the actions of a relative
handful indicate what ALL of them think?

You have to understand why they regard us as the great satan - and no,
it's not for religious reasons.

I suppose you're right to some extent. Damage done. But I do wish our
foreign policy wasn't as short-sighted, opportunistic, disingenuous
and situational as it is.

Indeed.

Our "friends" become our enemies -- enemies
that have our weapons and have been trained by us. We helped those in
Afganistan while they were fighting the Russians, and then not helping
them rebuild after the war. You'd think we'd have learned not to do
that after WWI and II. But no.

Agreement again.

As for oil, of course that's what we're there for. As you say, what
else would we be interested in. *So why don't we just say so.* But no,
here comes the PR department. In the Gulf War, we sold it by saying
that we were going in to save poor defenseless Kuwait from invasion
(unspoken: and their oil.) If we are in the business of saving folks
from invasion, then we missed a few countries along the way.

And there were a lot of people who had it pegged from the start as being
all about oil. Yep. People pointed out about the missed countries.

And in the Iraq war (another case of "friend" turned foe) the spin
doctors selling the thing started off saying that we were seeking
weapons of mass distruction (a somewhat more honest justification) and
then switched to saying that we were there to liberate the Iraqui
people, because it went down better with the American public. But once
again, if we were in the liberation business, we missed a few
countries along the way.

No honesty was involved. About a month or so before the debacle with
the UN, Shrub flat stated that it didn't matter what Saddam did that he
was going to invade. From then on the 'reasons' changed as each
'reason' was shown to be a lie.

It might not help the present situation, but understanding why much of
the world is angry with us (ie, waking up and smell ourselves once in
a while) could indeed help our relations with the rest of the world if
we would act on the information. But I for one don't think that will
ever happen.

Sad agreement.

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	29 Oct 2003 09:06:31 PM

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:57:13 -0600, Kevin Williams
<kevinw@spamblocked.com>, Message ID:
<bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com> wrote in alt.atheism;

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had great
covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the pictures of
all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day. It made an impact
on the middle class readers.)

A group of them, yes.

Furthermore, if Vietnam had been like Iraq, we would have invaded
North Vietnam, conquered Hanoi, and deposed Ho Chi Minh. There is no
significant comparison that I can see.

I'm frankly puzzled by the reaction of many of my fellow atheists to
the attacks of 11 September 2001. I've seen a lot of posts to the
effect that, well, yeah, Muslims are bad, but what about those
Christians? I simply can't understand how anyone can think that there
is a greater danger to the civlized world right now than Islam.

The greatest threat to the civilized world is the appointed
administration in the White House.

Please don't take my post as a defense of Christians. In their time
they, too, were the greatest hindrance to civilization. But that time
has passsed. Islam is now the greatest danger we face.

No. Fundamentalist Christians running a nuclear power are.

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.

User: "Phylter"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 06:00:40 AM

stoney <stoney@the.net> astounded us with:
news:quv0qvcb8t1ltdj6qii26mg2t16k0nmc40@4ax.com:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:57:13 -0600, Kevin Williams
<kevinw@spamblocked.com>, Message ID:
<bporpvc0fo34knvcpc3qait2cbtnjcthbb@4ax.com> wrote in alt.atheism;

"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.ht
ml?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the
course to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by
these killers," Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after
meeting with L. Paul Bremer III, the United States' chief administrator
in Iraq. ...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station,
said he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion.
"It is a holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal
act," Mr. al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had
mistakenly shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran
toward the station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be
independently confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had
shot anyone. ....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If
the Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We
were told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends
re-joined to do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the
pictures of the dead.

(For those that were not there, Life was a picture magazine and had
great covers. One issue published, over the front and back page, the
pictures of all those who had been killed in Vietnam in just one day.
It made an impact on the middle class readers.)

A group of them, yes.

The greatest threat to the civilized world is the appointed
administration in the White House.

Please don't take my post as a defense of Christians. In their time
they, too, were the greatest hindrance to civilization. But that time
has passsed. Islam is now the greatest danger we face.

No. Fundamentalist Christians running a nuclear power are.

Ya got THAT right, Stoney, DAMN!!
--
Phylter
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attach�
http://www.rudraigh.com/afjc/regulars.html
Change "no-way" to "hotmail" to respond
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 02:29:49 PM

On 30 Oct 2003 12:00:40 GMT, Phylter <Phylter@no-way.com>, Message ID:
<Xns9424CCA8E8D35phylter297Alpha@192.189.54.177> wrote in alt.atheism;

stoney <stoney@the.net> astounded us with:
news:quv0qvcb8t1ltdj6qii26mg2t16k0nmc40@4ax.com:

(snip)

The greatest threat to the civilized world is the appointed
administration in the White House.

Please don't take my post as a defense of Christians. In their time
they, too, were the greatest hindrance to civilization. But that time
has passsed. Islam is now the greatest danger we face.

No. Fundamentalist Christians running a nuclear power are.

Ya got THAT right, Stoney, DAMN!!

This is one hefty instance where I would have been giddeously grateful
to be wrong..... :\
I'm damn glad not to be in the military.

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	27 Oct 2003 11:14:14 PM

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:57:13 -0600, Kevin Williams wrote:

But no Iraqis.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - From alt.atheism only
"The computer revolution is over. We lost."
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	27 Oct 2003 10:32:06 PM

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:39:04 +0000, Mike Painter wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

Today? In this US?
The public would be enraged and try to have the magazine shut down.
Have you seen the numbers lately on how many people believe the government
should license and regulate the press?
You try showing this public the truth, they'll have you arrested...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - From alt.atheism only
"The computer revolution is over. We lost."
.

User: "Diederik"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	29 Oct 2003 09:00:40 PM

"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.10.28.04.32.06.381315@eac.org>...

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:39:04 +0000, Mike Painter wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

Today? In this US?

The public would be enraged and try to have the magazine shut down.

Have you seen the numbers lately on how many people believe the government
should license and regulate the press?

You try showing this public the truth, they'll have you arrested...

You got a source for that?
Diederik
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 09:57:14 AM

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:00:40 -0800, Diederik wrote:

"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.10.28.04.32.06.381315@eac.org>...

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:39:04 +0000, Mike Painter wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/middleeast/27CND-IRAQ.html?e
x=1067922000&en=0d1fb41c08f9426c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

"In Washington, President Bush said the United States would stay the course
to rebuild Iraq. "We're determined not to be intimidated by these killers,"
Mr. Bush told reporters at the White House after meeting with L. Paul Bremer
III, the United States' chief administrator in Iraq.
...
Abdul Karim al-Jibouri, the owner of a small market near the station, said
he had thrown himself to the ground when he heard the explosion. "It is a
holy month, and I dont think any Muslims can do this criminal act," Mr.
al-Jibouri said. "It cant be."

Mr. al-Jibouri and another man also said American soldiers had mistakenly
shot one man in the chaos following the attack when he ran toward the
station seeking his family. Their accounts could not be independently
confirmed, and soldiers at the scene denied that they had shot anyone.
....
The United States must pull its troops out of Iraq, he said, adding "If the
Americans leave, the explosions will leave with them."

I got out of the army in 65 just as the Vietnam buildup started. We were
told we were there to help the people and a lot of my friends re-joined to
do just that.

Maybe we should bring Life magazine back and start publishing the pictures
of the dead.

Today? In this US?

The public would be enraged and try to have the magazine shut down.

Have you seen the numbers lately on how many people believe the government
should license and regulate the press?

You try showing this public the truth, they'll have you arrested...

You got a source for that?

For the polls? Not handy, sorry. But it's not all that hard to find...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"The computer revolution is over. We lost."
.

User: "eyelessgame"
Title: Re: Another example of bush not getting it.	30 Oct 2003 12:06:13 PM

"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.10.28.04.32.06.381315@eac.org>...

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:39:04 +0000, Mike Painter wrote: