| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sphere" |
| Date: |
30 Dec 2006 10:59:50 PM |
| Object: |
Antitheism |
I don't think I invented the term but I have been
seeing it bantied about for awhile, and I think
the first use of it I've ever seen was someone
describing my position. I think I'll have a go at
defining the term.
Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.
Antitheists may also accept the label Atheist,
or might not. The primary distinction between
atheism and antitheism is that the atheist may
think the question of the existence or non-existence
of God worthy of consideration, while the antitheist
does not. The primary interest of the antitheist
with respect to God is to make the idea go away,
and it is even possible for an antitheist to believe
that God exists -- but is irrelevant.
Antitheists are generally not well received by
monotheists, and for good reason. The antitheist
probably finds the behavor of monotheists
particularly unpleasant in their pushing of the
God idea as some sort of absolute truth.
As an antitheist, my brief against monotheism
is this: The idea of One God is a schoolyard bully
who cannot play well with others. It is basic to
the idea of One God that all other notions of divinity
must be destroyed -- frequently by killing the people
who hold those other notions of divinity. People
infected with the One God idea have to be viewed with
suspicion, as in the past -- and even the present --
they have been known to engage in violence based
upon this evil idea, sometimes collectively.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection.
.
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| User: "Roy" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
03 Mar 2007 10:11:00 PM |
|
|
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedance04@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy. And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one might be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another weblink:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
.
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| User: "chazwin" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
04 Mar 2007 09:15:07 AM |
|
|
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy. And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one might be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
.
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| User: "Roy" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
04 Mar 2007 11:06:42 AM |
|
|
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1173021307.528985.148660@i80g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy. And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in
effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and
thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one might
be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another
weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
(1) it's called a "fallacy" not a fantasy.
(2) No. if one person insists god is true, and one person
insists god is false then someone is right, and someone is
wrong. Basic logic says A or not A
.
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| User: "chazwin" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
04 Mar 2007 11:17:30 AM |
|
|
On Mar 4, 5:06 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1173021307.528985.148660@i80g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy. And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in
effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and
thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one might
be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another
weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
(1) it's called a "fallacy" not a fantasy.
(2) No. if one person insists god is true, and one person
insists god is false then someone is right, and someone is
wrong. Basic logic says A or not A
Whilst I might be inclined to agree with this statment, I cannot
accept it as you have no proof that "basic logic" can be verified, you
are merely accepting its precepts, a-priori.
In any event if A is correct that is not to say that not A is exactly
correct: there are no black or white cases in reality, only in logic.
The case in point atheism or theism. Whilst the theist might be
incorrect in his understanding of god, the atheist might equally be
incorrect in his negation of the theist concept as his concept might
hold true elements.
Further, the suggestion of the "subjectivist fantasy" is a relexive
statement and in some cases it is simply false. Whether or not you
like it there is no pure truth, and different cases hold for different
people.
.
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| User: "Roy" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
04 Mar 2007 08:42:48 PM |
|
|
"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1173028650.883321.198900@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 4, 5:06 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
(1) it's called a "fallacy" not a fantasy.
(2) No. if one person insists god is true, and one person
insists god is false then someone is right, and someone is
wrong. Basic logic says A or not A
Whilst I might be inclined to agree with this statment, I cannot
accept it as you have no proof that "basic logic" can be verified, you
are merely accepting its precepts, a-priori.
Alright I'll give you a formal proof using Lemmon's System
of deductive reasoning.
Let A be a proposition
In Lemmon's system
v means "or"
& means "and"
- means "not"
1 (1) -(A v -A) Assumption for reductio ad
absurdum
2 (2) A Assumption for r.a.a
2 (3) A v -A v Introduction based on line
2
1,2 (4) (A v -A) & -(A v -A) & Introduction based on
line 1 and 3
1 (5) -A Reductio ad absurdum
based on line 2 and 4
1 (6) A v -A v Introduction based on line 5
1 (7) (A v-A) & -(A v -A) & Introduction based on line 6
(8) --(A v -A) Reductio based on line 1 and 7
(9) A v -A double negation based on line 8
Anyone familiar with any formal system of formal logic
should be able to see that the proof is valid.
.
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| User: "Sippuuden" |
|
| Title: Re: relativist fallacy [was: Antitheism] |
04 Mar 2007 04:19:27 PM |
|
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chazwin wrote:
... Whether or not you
like it there is no pure truth, and different cases hold for different
people.
Thanks for another excellent example of the relativist fallacy.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
04 Mar 2007 09:27:06 AM |
|
|
On 4 Mar 2007 07:15:07 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy. And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one might be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
McDermid is still inventing straw men and telling porkies rather than
address what he is told.
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
It's not about truth but where premises are granted. Or
presumptions.The theist's are only a priori granted inside their
particular theism.
Including their gods.
.
|
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|
| User: "Interloper" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
05 Mar 2007 11:16:07 AM |
|
|
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:7polu25ll835pb6opj5efo0f3tmcj0krue@4ax.com...
On 4 Mar 2007 07:15:07 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy. And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in
effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and
thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one
might be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another
weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
McDermid is still inventing straw men and telling porkies rather than
address what he is told.
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
It's not about truth but where premises are granted. Or
presumptions.The theist's are only a priori granted inside their
particular theism.
Including their gods.
Mr. Lee:
Where "domain" means [something like]
a distinctive group of people with some shared interest
(defn from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
would you say
"Theistic beliefs can be assumed, a priori, to be granted
by those within that theistic domain" ?
and/or
"Theistic beliefs cannot be assumed, a priori, to be
granted by those outside that theistic domain" ?
Do those statements capture your position?
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
05 Mar 2007 11:21:11 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:16:07 GMT, "Interloper" <jib@jab.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:7polu25ll835pb6opj5efo0f3tmcj0krue@4ax.com...
On 4 Mar 2007 07:15:07 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy. And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in
effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and
thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one
might be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another
weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
McDermid is still inventing straw men and telling porkies rather than
address what he is told.
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
It's not about truth but where premises are granted. Or
presumptions.The theist's are only a priori granted inside their
particular theism.
Including their gods.
Mr. Lee:
Where "domain" means [something like]
a distinctive group of people with some shared interest
(defn from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
would you say
"Theistic beliefs can be assumed, a priori, to be granted
by those within that theistic domain" ?
and/or
"Theistic beliefs cannot be assumed, a priori, to be
granted by those outside that theistic domain" ?
Do those statements capture your position?
Can't you read for comprehension?
.
|
|
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| User: "Interloper" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
05 Mar 2007 12:11:26 PM |
|
|
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:iakou21r317867lj9h3iutnc9fiscsfth9@4ax.com...
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:16:07 GMT, "Interloper" <jib@jab.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:7polu25ll835pb6opj5efo0f3tmcj0krue@4ax.com...
On 4 Mar 2007 07:15:07 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance"
<georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside
the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example
of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy.
And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in
effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and
thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one
might be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another
weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
McDermid is still inventing straw men and telling porkies rather than
address what he is told.
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
It's not about truth but where premises are granted. Or
presumptions.The theist's are only a priori granted inside their
particular theism.
Including their gods.
Mr. Lee:
Where "domain" means [something like]
a distinctive group of people with some shared interest
(defn from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
would you say
"Theistic beliefs can be assumed, a priori, to be granted
by those within that theistic domain" ?
and/or
"Theistic beliefs cannot be assumed, a priori, to be
granted by those outside that theistic domain" ?
Do those statements capture your position?
Can't you read for comprehension?
A simple yes or no would suffice.
But if you are going to be fucking ***** about it,
no wonder McDermid remains pissed with you.
.
|
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
05 Mar 2007 05:46:34 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 18:11:26 GMT, "Interloper" <bite@me.com> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:iakou21r317867lj9h3iutnc9fiscsfth9@4ax.com...
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 17:16:07 GMT, "Interloper" <jib@jab.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:7polu25ll835pb6opj5efo0f3tmcj0krue@4ax.com...
On 4 Mar 2007 07:15:07 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mar 4, 4:11 am, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bknju21kbkiedppg6taqk8pdtk6hcgq75o@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance"
<georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Forget whether or not it actually exists. Treat it as a logic
exercise. God is part of the theist's paradigm. Their presumption,
premise or whatever you want to call it. It is only granted inside
their religion. Their religion's view of it is only granted inside
the
religion.
Your "logic" isn't logic at all. Your logic is an elaborate example
of
what is called the subjectivist fallacy or the relativist fallacy.
And
I had told you this before, and you ignored it before. Here is
a quote from wikipedia:
"if someone adopts a simple relativist stance as an ad hoc defense
of a controversial or otherwise compromised position-saying, in
effect,
that "what is true for you is not necessarily true for me," and
thereby
attempting
to avoid having to mount any further defense of the position-one
might be
said to have committed a fallacy."
and here is another
weblink:http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
McDermid is still inventing straw men and telling porkies rather than
address what he is told.
The problem with calling this a fantasy is that sometimes it is not.
Truth IS relative. The fact that one person insists that god is true,
or even god is truth, whilst another insists this is crap means that
the subjectivist fantasy is no fantasy at all.
It's not about truth but where premises are granted. Or
presumptions.The theist's are only a priori granted inside their
particular theism.
Including their gods.
Mr. Lee:
Where "domain" means [something like]
a distinctive group of people with some shared interest
(defn from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
would you say
"Theistic beliefs can be assumed, a priori, to be granted
by those within that theistic domain" ?
and/or
"Theistic beliefs cannot be assumed, a priori, to be
granted by those outside that theistic domain" ?
Do those statements capture your position?
Can't you read for comprehension?
A simple yes or no would suffice.
But if you are going to be fucking ***** about it,
no wonder McDermid remains pissed with you.
McDermid is a loon who invents falsehoods. Like his strawman
"subjectivist fallacy".
And you're the fucking *****.
You're both trying to turn something simple into something
complicated.
.
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| User: "Interloper" |
|
| Title: Re: Antitheism |
05 Mar 2007 05:55:19 PM |
|
|
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:cqapu293dgagsfc64dbq61gnlvjto0gp6a@4ax.com...
You're both trying to turn something simple into something
complicated.
So then simply say what you mean.
But if
"Theistic beliefs cannot be assumed, a priori, to be
granted by those outside that theistic domain"
where "domain" is taken as meaning
"a distinctive group of people with some shared interest"
captures it for you then just say so. Or else McDermid
might continue to hunt you down for the rest of your
miserable life.
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Antitheism |
05 Mar 2007 06:08:29 PM |
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On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:55:19 GMT, "Interloper" <bite@me.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:cqapu293dgagsfc64dbq61gnlvjto0gp6a@4ax.com...
You're both trying to turn something simple into something
complicated.
So then simply say what you mean.
But if
"Theistic beliefs cannot be assumed, a priori, to be
granted by those outside that theistic domain"
where "domain" is taken as meaning
"a distinctive group of people with some shared interest"
captures it for you then just say so. Or else McDermid
might continue to hunt you down for the rest of your
miserable life.
You are as big an ***** as McDermid.
I made the mistake of trying to explain things to him in terms of
virtual vs actual reality and he predented I believed inmultiple
realities, which he has been attributing to me for years.
I no longer agree to other people's re-interpretations of ehat I say
because of things like that.
Once again, cut'n'pasted from an earlier message in this thread, in
response to McDermid's repeated misrepresentation:
He has an "it does/doesn't exist" hangup through which he filters whet
he has been told.
When we haven't even reached that stage yet.
The only place where "God" means what theists mean by it, is inside
their theism.
For everybody else it "what theists believe as part of their
religion".
It's their word, their concept etc. Not ours.
They start off from it as a presumption.
And they're the only people who do that.
Inside their religion.
.
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| User: "Scot McDermid" |
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| Title: Lee vs. McDermid. Problem solved. |
05 Mar 2007 07:33:00 PM |
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"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4rbpu2paac3tog6e40et69d84ng5npiho7@4ax.com...
I made the mistake of trying to explain things to him in terms of
virtual vs. actual reality and he predented I believed inmultiple
realities, which he has been attributing to me for years.
I no longer agree to other people's re-interpretations of ehat I say
because of things like that.
Once again, cut'n'pasted from an earlier message in this thread, in
response to McDermid's repeated misrepresentation:
He has an "it does/doesn't exist" hangup through which he filters whet
he has been told.
When we haven't even reached that stage yet.
The only place where "God" means what theists mean by it, is inside
their theism.
For everybody else it "what theists believe as part of their
religion".
It's their word, their concept etc. Not ours.
They start off from it as a presumption.
And they're the only people who do that.
Inside their religion.
Alrighty Christopher. I'm happy to say that I
finally think I understand what the hell you have
been talking about. The key has been that you
have STOPPED using terms like "virtual reality",
"domain", and STOPPED saying "applies to".
I'll spare you from my gloating. But if you take this
opportunity to gloat, I'll bash your head in with
the distinction between a "group of people" and
a "virtual reality" until your death.
I still say that **if you want** to examine what a
person (theist) is claiming then you have
to consider their definitions for things (what
they mean by God). DON'T tell me
"There is no reason to consider it". I said
"if you want to". You have made it
abundantly clear you have no interest
in starting with the theist's premise.
But I also say that if you *don't* consider
what someone else says about things,
you might miss on something that is
objectively real. I believe that if something
is actually real then it is actually and objectively
*real*. This is the source of what you call my
"exists/doesn't exist hang up". I do not
wish to debate this point with you.
Lastly, I have been pursuing you because
(1) you call everyone "moron"
(Do not bother now to call me a moron. It will only
prolong this.)
and
(2) I honestly have not understood what the
hell you have been talking about.
(Do not bother to now call me "too stupid to
understand. It will only prolong this.)
By the way, I am "Interloper" and also "Roy"
(but you knew that.)
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Lee vs. McDermid. Problem solved. |
05 Mar 2007 08:03:29 PM |
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On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:33:00 GMT, "Scot McDermid" <bite@me.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4rbpu2paac3tog6e40et69d84ng5npiho7@4ax.com...
I made the mistake of trying to explain things to him in terms of
virtual vs. actual reality and he predented I believed inmultiple
realities, which he has been attributing to me for years.
I no longer agree to other people's re-interpretations of ehat I say
because of things like that.
Once again, cut'n'pasted from an earlier message in this thread, in
response to McDermid's repeated misrepresentation:
He has an "it does/doesn't exist" hangup through which he filters whet
he has been told.
When we haven't even reached that stage yet.
The only place where "God" means what theists mean by it, is inside
their theism.
For everybody else it "what theists believe as part of their
religion".
It's their word, their concept etc. Not ours.
They start off from it as a presumption.
And they're the only people who do that.
Inside their religion.
Alrighty Christopher. I'm happy to say that I
finally think I understand what the hell you have
been talking about. The key has been that you
have STOPPED using terms like "virtual reality",
"domain", and STOPPED saying "applies to".
You're a fucking idiot. I only used those terms after you had
repeatedly misinterpreted what you were told, in an effort to try and
get through your wilful stupidity. "Virtual reality" is computer
speak. "Domain" is logic speak or set speak. "Applies" is accurate.
I'll spare you from my gloating. But if you take this
opportunity to gloat, I'll bash your head in with
the distinction between a "group of people" and
a "virtual reality" until your death.
It's not just a group of people, moron, but a logical domain.
I still say that **if you want** to examine what a
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
person (theist) is claiming then you have
to consider their definitions for things (what
they mean by God). DON'T tell me
"There is no reason to consider it". I said
There isn't, moron.
"if you want to". You have made it
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
abundantly clear you have no interest
Nothing to do with "interest", moron.
in starting with the theist's premise.
You're still filtering it though your pig-ignorant stupidity.
But I also say that if you *don't* consider
what someone else says about things,
you might miss on something that is
objectively real.
You're still doing it,moron.
I believe that if something
is actually real then it is actually and objectively
*real*.
It was nothing to do with whether or not something is objectively
real. Everything to do with presumptions being granted. But then you
knew this 8 years ago.
This is the source of what you call my
"exists/doesn't exist hang up". I do not
wish to debate this point with you.
I'll remind you that it was you who kept adding does/doesn't exist
when you knew perfectly that was nothing to do with it, hypocrite.
BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING TO DO WITH ITS PUTATIVE EXISTENCE,
BUT WHERE PRESUMPTIONS ARE GRANTED.
So shut the ***** up about it.
And why have you been net.stalking all this time, to lie about things
like "subjectivist fallacy" all these years?
Lastly, I have been pursuing you because
(1) you call everyone "moron"
Only when they're morons. Like you.
(Do not bother now to call me a moron. It will only
prolong this.)
Then don't be one.
and
(2) I honestly have not understood what the
hell you have been talking about.
That's because you've been stupidly filtering everything through your
"does/doesn't exist" filter.
(Do not bother to now call me "too stupid to
understand. It will only prolong this.)
Then don't be that.
By the way, I am "Interloper" and also "Roy"
(but you knew that.)
Of course I did. You were just a dishonest nym-shifter.
<plonk> this net.stalking troll's latest incarnation. Again.
.
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| User: "Scot McDermid" |
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| Title: Lee vs. McDermid. Just give up. |
05 Mar 2007 09:03:48 PM |
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"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:uuhpu2168ffcno3jspl7jdehu00pqnbac1@4ax.com...
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:33:00 GMT, "Scot McDermid" <bite@me.net> wrote:
<snip>
I still say that **if you want** to examine what a
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
person (theist) is claiming then you have
to consider their definitions for things (what
they mean by God). DON'T tell me
"There is no reason to consider it". I said
There isn't, moron.
"if you want to". You have made it
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
abundantly clear you have no interest
Nothing to do with "interest", moron.
in starting with the theist's premise.
You're still filtering it though your pig-ignorant stupidity.
<snip>
A problem happens when a person reads posts one
line at a time. It is easy to misinterpret the posts.
But I'm guilty of writing something that wasn't crystal
clear: So here is what I wrote, rewritten to make my
position more clear:
(1) If person A wants to examine what person
B is claiming then person A must consider person
B's definitions for things.
(2) If person A *doesn't ever* consider what others
say then person A could miss on something
that is objectively real.
I find these truths to be self-evident. But I seem
to be unable to communicate them to Christopher
Lee.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Lee vs. McDermid. Problem solved. |
06 Mar 2007 03:53:37 AM |
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On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:03:29 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
- Refer: <uuhpu2168ffcno3jspl7jdehu00pqnbac1@4ax.com>
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:33:00 GMT, "Scot McDermid" <bite@me.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4rbpu2paac3tog6e40et69d84ng5npiho7@4ax.com...
I made the mistake of trying to explain things to him in terms of
virtual vs. actual reality and he predented I believed inmultiple
realities, which he has been attributing to me for years.
I no longer agree to other people's re-interpretations of ehat I say
because of things like that.
Once again, cut'n'pasted from an earlier message in this thread, in
response to McDermid's repeated misrepresentation:
He has an "it does/doesn't exist" hangup through which he filters whet
he has been told.
When we haven't even reached that stage yet.
The only place where "God" means what theists mean by it, is inside
their theism.
For everybody else it "what theists believe as part of their
religion".
It's their word, their concept etc. Not ours.
They start off from it as a presumption.
And they're the only people who do that.
Inside their religion.
Alrighty Christopher. I'm happy to say that I
finally think I understand what the hell you have
been talking about. The key has been that you
have STOPPED using terms like "virtual reality",
"domain", and STOPPED saying "applies to".
You're a fucking idiot. I only used those terms after you had
repeatedly misinterpreted what you were told, in an effort to try and
get through your wilful stupidity. "Virtual reality" is computer
speak. "Domain" is logic speak or set speak. "Applies" is accurate.
I'll spare you from my gloating. But if you take this
opportunity to gloat, I'll bash your head in with
the distinction between a "group of people" and
a "virtual reality" until your death.
It's not just a group of people, moron, but a logical domain.
I still say that **if you want** to examine what a
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
person (theist) is claiming then you have
to consider their definitions for things (what
they mean by God). DON'T tell me
"There is no reason to consider it". I said
There isn't, moron.
"if you want to". You have made it
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
abundantly clear you have no interest
Nothing to do with "interest", moron.
in starting with the theist's premise.
You're still filtering it though your pig-ignorant stupidity.
But I also say that if you *don't* consider
what someone else says about things,
you might miss on something that is
objectively real.
You're still doing it,moron.
I believe that if something
is actually real then it is actually and objectively
*real*.
It was nothing to do with whether or not something is objectively
real. Everything to do with presumptions being granted. But then you
knew this 8 years ago.
This is the source of what you call my
"exists/doesn't exist hang up". I do not
wish to debate this point with you.
I'll remind you that it was you who kept adding does/doesn't exist
when you knew perfectly that was nothing to do with it, hypocrite.
BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING TO DO WITH ITS PUTATIVE EXISTENCE,
BUT WHERE PRESUMPTIONS ARE GRANTED.
So shut the ***** up about it.
And why have you been net.stalking all this time, to lie about things
like "subjectivist fallacy" all these years?
Lastly, I have been pursuing you because
(1) you call everyone "moron"
Only when they're morons. Like you.
(Do not bother now to call me a moron. It will only
prolong this.)
Then don't be one.
and
(2) I honestly have not understood what the
hell you have been talking about.
That's because you've been stupidly filtering everything through your
"does/doesn't exist" filter.
(Do not bother to now call me "too stupid to
understand. It will only prolong this.)
Then don't be that.
By the way, I am "Interloper" and also "Roy"
(but you knew that.)
Of course I did. You were just a dishonest nym-shifter.
<plonk> this net.stalking troll's latest incarnation. Again.
I have also just (re) plonked the attention-seeking ignorant lying
*****.
--
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Lee vs. McDermid. Problem solved. |
06 Mar 2007 09:09:25 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:23:37 +1030, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:03:29 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
- Refer: <uuhpu2168ffcno3jspl7jdehu00pqnbac1@4ax.com>
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:33:00 GMT, "Scot McDermid" <bite@me.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4rbpu2paac3tog6e40et69d84ng5npiho7@4ax.com...
I made the mistake of trying to explain things to him in terms of
virtual vs. actual reality and he predented I believed in multiple
realities, which he has been attributing to me for years.
I no longer agree to other people's re-interpretations of what I say
because of things like that.
Once again, cut'n'pasted from an earlier message in this thread, in
response to McDermid's repeated misrepresentation:
He has an "it does/doesn't exist" hangup through which he filters what
he has been told.
When we haven't even reached that stage yet.
The only place where "God" means what theists mean by it, is inside
their theism.
For everybody else it "what theists believe as part of their
religion".
It's their word, their concept etc. Not ours.
They start off from it as a presumption.
And they're the only people who do that.
Inside their religion.
None of which is rocket science.
Alrighty Christopher. I'm happy to say that I
finally think I understand what the hell you have
been talking about. The key has been that you
have STOPPED using terms like "virtual reality",
"domain", and STOPPED saying "applies to".
You're a fucking idiot. I only used those terms after you had
repeatedly misinterpreted what you were told, in an effort to try and
get through your wilful stupidity. "Virtual reality" is computer
speak. "Domain" is logic speak or set speak. "Applies" is accurate.
This was because he had some kind of mental block. He is a wannabe
philosopher who imagines that mental masturbation 101's simplistic
definition of atheists is accurate, and attacked explanations why it
wasn't.
He seems to be some kind of atheist. But he is locked into simplistic
use of language where words only have a single meaning, and simplistic
binary logic.
Probably because this is how philosophy courses seem to start, until
they get so deep into it they finally realise it doesn't match
reality.
I'll spare you from my gloating. But if you take this
opportunity to gloat, I'll bash your head in with
the distinction between a "group of people" and
a "virtual reality" until your death.
The guy is a moron. Their religion is like a virtual reality. In the
same way that eg Star Trek is. Both have their own set of rules, etc
which only apply inside the virtual reality. Whether it is virgin
births and gods, or audible explosions in vacuum and transporter
beams.
It was an analogy that anybody who isn't a total retard understands.
Especially anybody who has done any computing.
Yet he pretended I was talking about an alternate actual reality. I
say pretended because nobody is that stupid.
And started lying about me being a subjectivist. Accusing me of the
subjectivist fallacy which is why my POV was a load of crap.
It's impossible to get through such wilful, self-imposed ignorance.
Every attempt at clarification was filtered through his stupid
preconceptions.
And he's still doing it.
It's not just a group of people, moron, but a logical domain.
I still say that **if you want** to examine what a
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
person (theist) is claiming then you have
to consider their definitions for things (what
they mean by God). DON'T tell me
"There is no reason to consider it". I said
There isn't, moron.
Even after 8 years. This was one of the early things he dismissed:
that whatever somebody says, believes, claims etc takes on the meaning
of the extra verb used to describe what he does.
The difference between "Pigs can fly" and "He says/believes/claims
pigs can fly".
"if you want to". You have made it
Nothing to do with "want", moron.
abundantly clear you have no interest
Nothing to do with "interest", moron.
in starting with the theist's premise.
You're still filtering it though your pig-ignorant stupidity.
But I also say that if you *don't* consider
what someone else says about things,
you might miss on something that is
objectively real.
300+ years ago a totally new explanation that nobody had any reason to
take seriously at first: Tiny things so small you can't see them
called germs cause smallpox.
"Bwaaaaaahahahahaha...... Prove it"
"Here, look through this magnifying device called a microscope. This
is an example of a healthy person's blood. This other one is from
somebody sick with it; see those things moving? They're called germs,
you can't see them with the naked eye. It's the only difference
between the blood samples."
Like a lot of philosophy wannabes he can't understand the concept of
"until you prove it there is no reason to think so".
You're still doing it,moron.
I believe that if something
is actually real then it is actually and objectively
*real*.
It was nothing to do with whether or not something is objectively
real. Everything to do with presumptions being granted. But then you
knew this 8 years ago.
Which is another example of his filtering through "it does/doesn't
exist" - instead of treating it in the abstract. He's added that to
everything he has been told.
And he can't conceive of anybody seeing the object of somebody else's
beliefs in any other terms than "does/doesn't exist".
This is the source of what you call my
"exists/doesn't exist hang up". I do not
wish to debate this point with you.
I'll remind you that it was you who kept adding does/doesn't exist
when you knew perfectly that was nothing to do with it, hypocrite.
BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING TO DO WITH ITS PUTATIVE EXISTENCE,
BUT WHERE PRESUMPTIONS ARE GRANTED.
I really don't understand why this was so hard to grasp. It was
explained from day one, 8 years ago but dismissed.
So shut the ***** up about it.
And why have you been net.stalking all this time, to lie about things
like "subjectivist fallacy" all these years?
Lastly, I have been pursuing you because
(1) you call everyone "moron"
Only when they're morons. Like you.
(Do not bother now to call me a moron. It will only
prolong this.)
Then don't be one.
and
(2) I honestly have not understood what the
hell you have been talking about.
That's because you've been stupidly filtering everything through your
"does/doesn't exist" filter.
That he says he refuses to debate - but keeps applying.
(Do not bother to now call me "too stupid to
understand. It will only prolong this.)
Then don't be that.
By the way, I am "Interloper" and also "Roy"
(but you knew that.)
Of course I did. You were just a dishonest nym-shifter.
<plonk> this net.stalking troll's latest incarnation. Again.
I have also just (re) plonked the attention-seeking ignorant lying
*****.
What is puzzling is that he seems to be some kind of atheist. Who has
adjusted his position to fit somebody else's definition of the word,
followed by adjusting his thought processes etc to fit.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Lee vs. McDermid. Problem solved. |
06 Mar 2007 03:41:13 PM |
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On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:09:25 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
- Refer: <3cuqu2pol3vbon416vnkqonfqaf141p6m2@4ax.com>
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:23:37 +1030, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 01:33:00 GMT, "Scot McDermid" <bite@me.net> wrote:
:
What is puzzling is that he seems to be some kind of atheist. Who has
adjusted his position to fit somebody else's definition of the word,
followed by adjusting his thought processes etc to fit.
Which just goes to show that even ill-educated monomaniacs can drop
the need for sky-pixies too.
There is no requirement that the lack of religious mental illness
precludes other forms of retardation.
He is an example of that fact.
--
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Antitheism |
03 Mar 2007 04:31:51 PM |
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On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedance04@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1172941213.518021.89370@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 3, 10:20 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:
"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...
On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
But
you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.
And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.
And this is just like presumptions that are true in Star Trek (like
warp fields) do not apply outside of Star Trek. Totally separate
universes. Right Christopher? The theist universe is distinct
and separate from the atheist universe? Is that your position?
That's close. Imagine if there were people who took /Star Trek/
seriously; who believed that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons et al
were real. Imagine that they believed that all of us here on earth
are, in reality, engaged in a bitter war with the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they insisted that you declare yourself for
the Federation, and that you prove their loyalty by joining and
serving their Church of the Federation - and that, when you demur,
they denounce you as a traitor, an agent of the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they don't just come to your door and doall of
that - they preach it on TV, post it all over the Internet, and even
try to have their Federationist beliefs made into law, so that you
must follow them or go to jail.
Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.
He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist universe,
not with the real world.
He seems to think that the 'atheist universe' (ie, the world we
experience with our senses) is as imaginary as the 'theist
universe' (ie, the fantasy one in which God and Satan do eternal
battle, and men must choose between them). My analogy was right on in
that respect.
No, you have missed my point. My point was to ask Chris Lee
(and now ask you) : Do you see the "theist universe" as being
distinct from the "atheist universe" in exactly the same way
that the "Star Trek Universe" is distinct from "our universe?
I thought I answered that. As I see it, the 'atheist universe' is the
physical universe I actually live in; while the 'theist universes' are
that plus a fantasy game played by theists of various persuasions (no
different from the Star Trek fantasy game I previously described).
There isn't an "atheist universe". We are merely people who are part
of the real world, who don't happen to be theist.
.
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| User: "Roy" |
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| Title: Re: Antitheism |
04 Mar 2007 08:39:42 AM |
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"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:fmtju2teahlgsk36jhb6ho8pr6lb44bc87@4ax.com...
On 3 Mar 2007 09:54:09 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedance04@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
There isn't an "atheist universe". We are merely people who are part
of the real world, who don't happen to be theist.
And there is no "theist universe". Theists are merely people who
are part of the real world and claim that there is a God who has
some control over the real world that we ALL live in. Thus, their
claim of God applies to the world in which *you* and *I* are both
a part.
*I* say that they are wrong: there is no God.
*You* insist on saying that you are "outside the domain to which
that claim applies". And you also say that the "domain" is just
like Star Trek... a separate virtual reality.
By now, you should be able to see that your analogy is patently
absurd. We live in the same "domain/universe" as theists
[we meet them on a daily basis] but do not live in the same
"virtual universe" of Jean Luc Picard and never will. So it
should be CRYSTAL clear that your idea of "domain" is
NOT a "virtual reality". But perhaps there is a different
sense of the word "domain". And, in fact, there is:
"Domain" could mean "a sphere of knowledge" or
"area of study"
So... is "theism" a "sphere of knowledge" or "area of study"?
It is an area that people study. Theologians might claim that there
is a "the spiritual side of life" and they are studying it. So..
sure "theism" is a "sphere of knowledge" or "area of study".
I might disagree with their findings and possibly even disagree
that there is a "spiritual side of life". But non-the-less the "theistic
domain" is an "area of study" and not a "virtual universe".
By comparison, here's another "area of study": physics
To say "The law of gravity does not apply to me because
I'm outside the domain of physics" is patently absurd.
I would never say "I am outside the domain of physics".
It would be more accurate to say "Physics is not my area of study".
So by now, even you, should be able to see that saying
"The premises of theism don't apply to me because I'm outside
the domain of theism" is analogous to saying
"The law of gravity doesn't apply to me because I'm outside the
domain of physics."
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