Antitheism

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Sphere"
Date:	30 Dec 2006 10:59:50 PM
Object:	Antitheism

I don't think I invented the term but I have been
seeing it bantied about for awhile, and I think
the first use of it I've ever seen was someone
describing my position. I think I'll have a go at
defining the term.
Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.
Antitheists may also accept the label Atheist,
or might not. The primary distinction between
atheism and antitheism is that the atheist may
think the question of the existence or non-existence
of God worthy of consideration, while the antitheist
does not. The primary interest of the antitheist
with respect to God is to make the idea go away,
and it is even possible for an antitheist to believe
that God exists -- but is irrelevant.
Antitheists are generally not well received by
monotheists, and for good reason. The antitheist
probably finds the behavor of monotheists
particularly unpleasant in their pushing of the
God idea as some sort of absolute truth.
As an antitheist, my brief against monotheism
is this: The idea of One God is a schoolyard bully
who cannot play well with others. It is basic to
the idea of One God that all other notions of divinity
must be destroyed -- frequently by killing the people
who hold those other notions of divinity. People
infected with the One God idea have to be viewed with
suspicion, as in the past -- and even the present --
they have been known to engage in violence based
upon this evil idea, sometimes collectively.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection.
.

User: "Sphere"
Title: Re: Antitheism	31 Dec 2006 11:10:40 AM

Russ Rose wrote:

"Sphere" <sphere1952@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1167541190.513790.96600@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...

Since god is knowledge, those who believe knowledge to be a "bad idea" are
just plain stupid.

Knowing that little green men live in your attic is
a bad idea. Knowing that you will kill the next
passerby is a bad idea.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection.
.

User: "James"
Title: Re: Antitheism	22 Feb 2007 12:32:46 PM

"Sphere" <sphere1952@gmail.com>
Re: Antitheism
I don't think I invented the term but I have been
seeing it bantied about for awhile, and I think
the first use of it I've ever seen was someone
describing my position. I think I'll have a go at
defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

Antitheists may also accept the label Atheist,
or might not. The primary distinction between
atheism and antitheism is that the atheist may
think the question of the existence or non-existence
of God worthy of consideration, while the antitheist
does not. The primary interest of the antitheist
with respect to God is to make the idea go away,
and it is even possible for an antitheist to believe
that God exists -- but is irrelevant.

Antitheists are generally not well received by
monotheists, and for good reason. The antitheist
probably finds the behavor of monotheists
particularly unpleasant in their pushing of the
God idea as some sort of absolute truth.

As an antitheist, my brief against monotheism
is this: The idea of One God is a schoolyard bully
who cannot play well with others. It is basic to
the idea of One God that all other notions of divinity
must be destroyed -- frequently by killing the people
who hold those other notions of divinity. People
infected with the One God idea have to be viewed with
suspicion, as in the past -- and even the present --
they have been known to engage in violence based
upon this evil idea, sometimes collectively.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection.

Hello,
Unfortunately for the antitheists who wants the idea of God to "go
away", that hasn't happened yet, and according to the Bible, never
will. 1 Pe 1:24,25,
" 24. For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the
flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25. but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word
that was preached to you." (NIV)
Yes, the Bible is full of violence (mainly the OT). Why is that? A
similar statement could be made for many countries of the world
(including the USA), who not only engage in wars, but who execute
wicked people. They also are involved in 'collective violence'.
But God's wars were not aimed at innocent people (like bombs dropping
from the sky do in human wars), rather God as being the human Creator,
has the right to judge the wicked. And He did in the past and will do
so in the near future.
The ancient peoples that God judged were into extreme wickedness (such
as child sacrifice) and as the work Halley's Bible Handbook stated:
"Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that
God did not destroy them sooner than he did."
Those of wise hearts will take note of God's punishment upon the
ancient wicked ones as Jesus brings to our attention at Mt 24:37-39,
" 37. The world will be at ease --banquets and parties and
weddings--just as it was in Noah's time before the sudden coming of
the flood;
39. people wouldn't believe what was going to happen until the flood
actually arrived and took them all away. So shall my coming be."
(Living Bible)
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
.

User: "George Dance"
Title: Re: Antitheism	27 Feb 2007 05:54:04 PM

"Sphere" <sphere1...@gmail.com>
Re: Antitheism
I don't think I invented the term but I have been
seeing it bantied about for awhile, and I think
the first use of it I've ever seen was someone
describing my position. I think I'll have a go at

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:
Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.
.

User: "Sippuuden"
Title: Re: Antitheism	28 Feb 2007 12:06:11 AM

George Dance wrote:

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:

Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.

Both of those girls have an absence of belief in the existence of gods,
and THAT is what characterizes atheism: "Atheism is characterized by an
absence of belief in the existence of gods." --
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
.

User: "chazwin"
Title: Re: Antitheism	28 Feb 2007 04:12:20 AM

On Feb 28, 6:06 am, Sippuuden <s...@macrosoft.net> wrote:

George Dance wrote:

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:

Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.

May I suggest that contratheist and antitheist are subsets of atheist?
The atheist has no belief in god(s); the contratheist goes further but
has to have an alternative (contra-); whereas the antitheist argues
that god(s) is a bad idea. A contratheist might be an antitheist too,
but all are under the general rubric of atheists.
.

User: "George Dance"
Title: Re: Antitheism	28 Feb 2007 08:42:59 AM

On Feb 28, 5:12 am, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 6:06 am, Sippuuden <s...@macrosoft.net> wrote:

George Dance wrote:

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:

Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.

- Show quoted text -

I agree: they share a common class, and also (given a theist-
dominated world) a common interest. However, there are also important
differences between these and other atheists, which have to be
recognized before co-operation on that common interest is even
possible.
.

User: "chazwin"
Title: Re: Antitheism	01 Mar 2007 01:08:19 PM

On Feb 28, 2:42 pm, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

On Feb 28, 5:12 am, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 6:06 am, Sippuuden <s...@macrosoft.net> wrote:

George Dance wrote:

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:

Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.

- Show quoted text -

Indeed. I feel there will be a tendency for all atheists to eventually
moved towards an antitheist position. Having rejected god and found
that they are not struck down by celestial lightning and manage to
live a self-defined purposeful life, a moment's reflexion will tell
show them just how dangerous and damaging is the theist position.
Whereas the contratheist might offer a ridiculous alternative, the
only way to go seems to be to reject even that.
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: Antitheism	01 Mar 2007 01:35:09 PM

On 1 Mar 2007 11:08:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 2:42 pm, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

On Feb 28, 5:12 am, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 6:06 am, Sippuuden <s...@macrosoft.net> wrote:

George Dance wrote:

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:

Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.

- Show quoted text -

No. Plenty of us weren't theist, to reject anything.
All these subset positions are merely how one reacts to what theists
say or do at that particular time.
We're not theists. The theist's God-presumption has no more meaning
outside their beliefs than eg Zeus does outside the Greek myths.
Being outside the theist's belief system we cannot be describes
according to presumptions that only apply inside it.
.

User: "chazwin"
Title: Re: Antitheism	02 Mar 2007 12:14:19 PM

On Mar 1, 7:35 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

On 1 Mar 2007 11:08:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 2:42 pm, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

On Feb 28, 5:12 am, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 6:06 am, Sippuuden <s...@macrosoft.net> wrote:

George Dance wrote:

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:

Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.

- Show quoted text -

No. Plenty of us weren't theist, to reject anything.

All these subset positions are merely how one reacts to what theists
say or do at that particular time.

We're not theists. The theist's God-presumption has no more meaning
outside their beliefs than eg Zeus does outside the Greek myths.

Being outside the theist's belief system we cannot be describes
according to presumptions that only apply inside it.

Presumably, you mean: as a person that has no belief in god, called
atheist by those that do?
"Being outside the theist's position" is the same as being described
according to the presumptions that apply inside it. So your last
sentence makes no sense.
I think what you really want to say is that being an "atheist" per se
does not amount to a system of belief. But you cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: Antitheism	02 Mar 2007 12:23:56 PM

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Mar 1, 7:35 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

On 1 Mar 2007 11:08:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 2:42 pm, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

On Feb 28, 5:12 am, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 6:06 am, Sippuuden <s...@macrosoft.net> wrote:

George Dance wrote:

defining the term.

Antitheist: n. Somone who believes God is
a bad idea.

That fits with how I'm using the term nowadays, for someone opposed to
theism - as distinct from a:

Contratheist: One who denies the existence of a God or gods.

- Show quoted text -

No. Plenty of us weren't theist, to reject anything.

All these subset positions are merely how one reacts to what theists
say or do at that particular time.

We're not theists. The theist's God-presumption has no more meaning
outside their beliefs than eg Zeus does outside the Greek myths.

Being outside the theist's belief system we cannot be described
according to presumptions that only apply inside it.

Presumably, you mean: as a person that has no belief in god, called
atheist by those that do?

If I'd meant that I would have said it. But I didn't.
It's a simple demographic description. The a- prefix shows the simple
absence of the prefixed property. We are absent the property of being
theist.

"Being outside the theist's position" is the same as being described
according to the presumptions that apply inside it. So your last
sentence makes no sense.

Good thing it's just your silly straw man then, isn't it?

I think what you really want to say is that being an "atheist" per se
does not amount to a system of belief.

While that is true, it is not what I "wanted to say".

But you cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

User: "Roy"
Title: Re: Antitheism	02 Mar 2007 08:05:58 PM

"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote:

But you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

And this is just like presumptions that are true in Star Trek (like
warp fields) do not apply outside of Star Trek. Totally separate
universes. Right Christopher? The theist universe is distinct
and separate from the atheist universe? Is that your position?
.

User: "George Dance"
Title: Re: Antitheism	03 Mar 2007 08:31:50 AM

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

That's close. Imagine if there were people who took /Star Trek/
seriously; who believed that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons et al
were real. Imagine that they believed that all of us here on earth
are, in reality, engaged in a bitter war with the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they insisted that you declare yourself for
the Federation, and that you prove their loyalty by joining and
serving their Church of the Federation - and that, when you demur,
they denounce you as a traitor, an agent of the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they don't just come to your door and doall of
that - they preach it on TV, post it all over the Internet, and even
try to have their Federationist beliefs made into law, so that you
must follow them or go to jail.
Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: Antitheism	03 Mar 2007 09:20:21 AM

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedance04@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

That's close. Imagine if there were people who took /Star Trek/
seriously; who believed that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons et al
were real. Imagine that they believed that all of us here on earth
are, in reality, engaged in a bitter war with the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they insisted that you declare yourself for
the Federation, and that you prove their loyalty by joining and
serving their Church of the Federation - and that, when you demur,
they denounce you as a traitor, an agent of the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they don't just come to your door and doall of
that - they preach it on TV, post it all over the Internet, and even
try to have their Federationist beliefs made into law, so that you
must follow them or go to jail.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist universe,
not with the real world.

User: "Roy"
Title: Re: Antitheism	03 Mar 2007 09:59:35 AM

"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedance04@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

That's close. Imagine if there were people who took /Star Trek/
seriously; who believed that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons et al
were real. Imagine that they believed that all of us here on earth
are, in reality, engaged in a bitter war with the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they insisted that you declare yourself for
the Federation, and that you prove their loyalty by joining and
serving their Church of the Federation - and that, when you demur,
they denounce you as a traitor, an agent of the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they don't just come to your door and doall of
that - they preach it on TV, post it all over the Internet, and even
try to have their Federationist beliefs made into law, so that you
must follow them or go to jail.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist universe,
not with the real world.

Please explain what you mean by "theist universe",
"some imaginary atheist universe", and "real world". Are you
saying that atheists live in the "real world" but theists
live in a separate "theist universe"? Please explain.
.

User: "chazwin"
Title: Re: Antitheism	03 Mar 2007 10:05:57 AM

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist universe,
not with the real world.

teeeheee!!!
.

User: "Roy"
Title: Re: Antitheism	03 Mar 2007 10:43:19 AM

"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172937957.627688.275900@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

But
you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist universe,
not with the real world.

teeeheee!!!

After about eight years of reading Lee's stuff, my goal is either
to finally understand what he means by "Theistic premises do not apply
to me because I'm outside the theistic domain" or to convince him
that he position is a bunch of crap.
.

User: "Christopher A.Lee"
Title: Re: Antitheism	03 Mar 2007 11:22:10 AM

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:43:19 GMT, "Roy" <Roy@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172937957.627688.275900@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

But
you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist universe,
not with the real world.

teeeheee!!!

Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?
.

User: "chazwin"
Title: Re: Antitheism	04 Mar 2007 08:54:36 AM

On Mar 3, 5:22 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:43:19 GMT, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172937957.627688.275900@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance" <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

But
you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist universe,
not with the real world.

teeeheee!!!

Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?- Hide quoted text -

I think for Roy there is a serious need for him to say why he thinks
his (Lee's or anyone's) theistic premises should apply to anyone, and
in doing so say exactly what he thinks they are, whilst Lee should
also state what he thinks are the qualities of these theistic premises
he thinks he falls outside of. Maybe we could start with one????
.

User: "Roy"
Title: Re: Antitheism	04 Mar 2007 09:12:30 AM

"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1173020076.843618.191020@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 5:22 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:43:19 GMT, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172937957.627688.275900@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance"
<georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

But
you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists
ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it
or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately
by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

And this is just like presumptions that are true in Star Trek
(like
warp fields) do not apply outside of Star Trek. Totally separate
universes. Right Christopher? The theist universe is distinct
and separate from the atheist universe? Is that your position?

That's close. Imagine if there were people who took /Star Trek/
seriously; who believed that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons et
al
were real. Imagine that they believed that all of us here on earth
are, in reality, engaged in a bitter war with the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they insisted that you declare yourself for
the Federation, and that you prove their loyalty by joining and
serving their Church of the Federation - and that, when you demur,
they denounce you as a traitor, an agent of the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they don't just come to your door and doall
of
that - they preach it on TV, post it all over the Internet, and
even
try to have their Federationist beliefs made into law, so that you
must follow them or go to jail.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll
have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist
universe,
not with the real world.

teeeheee!!!

Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?- Hide quoted text -

I think for Roy there is a serious need for him to say why he thinks
his (Lee's or anyone's) theistic premises should apply to anyone, and
in doing so say exactly what he thinks they are,

For Roy (me) there is a serious need to distinguish between
"where a premise applies" verses "who is applying it". Lee fails to
see the distinction despite my numerous attempts to explain it.
I can explain it to you if you need.
.

User: "chazwin"
Title: Re: Antitheism	04 Mar 2007 09:56:49 AM

On Mar 4, 3:12 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1173020076.843618.191020@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 5:22 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:43:19 GMT, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172937957.627688.275900@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance"
<georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

But
you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as atheists
ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like it
or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described accurately
by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

And this is just like presumptions that are true in Star Trek
(like
warp fields) do not apply outside of Star Trek. Totally separate
universes. Right Christopher? The theist universe is distinct
and separate from the atheist universe? Is that your position?

That's close. Imagine if there were people who took /Star Trek/
seriously; who believed that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons et
al
were real. Imagine that they believed that all of us here on earth
are, in reality, engaged in a bitter war with the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they insisted that you declare yourself for
the Federation, and that you prove their loyalty by joining and
serving their Church of the Federation - and that, when you demur,
they denounce you as a traitor, an agent of the evil Klingons and
Romulans. Imagine that they don't just come to your door and doall
of
that - they preach it on TV, post it all over the Internet, and
even
try to have their Federationist beliefs made into law, so that you
must follow them or go to jail.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and you'll
have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist
universe,
not with the real world.

teeeheee!!!

Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?- Hide quoted text -

I think for Roy there is a serious need for him to say why he thinks
his (Lee's or anyone's) theistic premises should apply to anyone, and
in doing so say exactly what he thinks they are,

Go ahead!
.

User: "Roy"
Title: Re: Antitheism	04 Mar 2007 11:25:49 AM

"chazwin" <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1173023809.723514.149690@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 4, 3:12 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1173020076.843618.191020@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 5:22 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:43:19 GMT, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172937957.627688.275900@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...

On 3 Mar 2007 06:31:50 -0800, "George Dance"
<georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Mar 2, 9:05 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:pkqgu2l6kerkuv1rik9gpi8oe3eb1b71f8@4ax.com...

On 2 Mar 2007 10:14:19 -0800, "chazwin"
<chazwy...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

But
you
cannot avoid the
contrast with theists as you are trying to do. We as
atheists
ARE
described by in contra distinction to thesim whether we like
it
or
not.

And I have given reasons why we cannot be described
accurately
by
presumptions that only have meaning inside theism.

And this is just like presumptions that are true in Star Trek
(like
warp fields) do not apply outside of Star Trek. Totally
separate
universes. Right Christopher? The theist universe is
distinct
and separate from the atheist universe? Is that your
position?

That's close. Imagine if there were people who took /Star Trek/
seriously; who believed that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons
et
al
were real. Imagine that they believed that all of us here on
earth
are, in reality, engaged in a bitter war with the evil Klingons
and
Romulans. Imagine that they insisted that you declare yourself
for
the Federation, and that you prove their loyalty by joining and
serving their Church of the Federation - and that, when you
demur,
they denounce you as a traitor, an agent of the evil Klingons
and
Romulans. Imagine that they don't just come to your door and
doall
of
that - they preach it on TV, post it all over the Internet, and
even
try to have their Federationist beliefs made into law, so that
you
must follow them or go to jail.

Substitute 'Christian' or 'Moslem' for 'Federatonist,' and
you'll
have
some idea of where atheists like Christopher Lee are coming
from.

He compared the theist universe with some imaginary atheist
universe,
not with the real world.

teeeheee!!!

After about eight years of reading Lee's stuff, my goal is either
to finally understand what he means by "Theistic premises do not
apply
to me because I'm outside the theistic domain" or to convince him
that he position is a bunch of crap.

Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?- Hide quoted text -

I think for Roy there is a serious need for him to say why he thinks
his (Lee's or anyone's) theistic premises should apply to anyone, and
in doing so say exactly what he thinks they are,

Go ahead!

Okay... the issue is the distinction between "where a premise applies"
and "who is applying it". Lee JUST WROTE in another part of this thread
"The theist's [premises] are only a priori granted inside
their particular theism [theistic domain]."
This statement implies that there is a "place" or "domain" or "virtual
reality" where theis'ts [premises] apply. And Lee has said many
times that this virtual reality is just like the Star Trek virtual reality
i.e. separate from his "real world". But as I have shown his analogy
is useless and misleading. Theists live in the same world that we do.
So what the hell is he actually talking about? What he MUST mean is
there is a group of people whom you can assume grant those premises.
It is NOT a case of "where theist's premises apply".
It is a case of "whom can you assume apply those premises"
Let's take an example, and sort apart the concepts of (1) what is the
premise (2) what is the "domain to which it applies" and (3) who
applies it. Here's my example: All swans are white.
(1) The premise (claim) is "All swans are white"
(2) The domain is, firstly "reality" (We are not talking about StarTrek or
any work of fiction) And secondly the domain is swans. (The premise
doesn't say anything about ducks.)
(3) And the people who apply the premise are any people who believe
all swans are white. And by the way, they are wrong: there are
black swans in Australia.
Now back to the question of god.
(1) The premise is "god exists"
(2) The domain is reality (We are not talking about a movie or a book)
(3) And the people who apply that premise are called theists.
Christopher is "outside the group that applies the premise" but
he is not "outside of the virtual reality to which the premise applies".
.

User: "chazwin"
Title: Re: Antitheism	04 Mar 2007 11:53:03 AM

Hello Mr Lee are you out there?

On Mar 3, 5:22 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:43:19 GMT, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"chazwin" <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172937957.627688.275900@31g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 3, 3:59 pm, "Roy" <R...@mc.net> wrote:

"Christopher A.Lee" <c...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:ie4ju29dr754nl9vdqog1l6b3emm53fmue@4ax.com...